위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1013

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알림판 아카이브
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기타 링크

174.18.78.210

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자 블록에서 발매된 지 불과 1일이 조금 넘은 후, 174.18.78.210은 다시 다른 편집자들을 공격하고 있다.사용자는 원래 장기간 남용되어 차단되었다.위키백과 참조:장기 남용/네이트 속도.사용자는 사이트 금지 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=790555410#Site_ban_for_Nate_Speed을 위반하여 편집하고 있다.나이고스 (t@lk 기여) 11:40, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

이미 처리된 것 같군닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 12:14, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:Cody2019

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

코디2019의 모든 편집을 롤백해 주시겠습니까?그는 코디 핀케2019의 블록 회피 양말이다.평소 컴퓨터가 잠시 없어. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 16:20, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

닥터알데바란과 "유대 민족 로비"의 "유대인 POV 푸싱"

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

"새로운"이지만 놀라운 경험을 가진 편집자 닥터알데바란(토크 · 기여)은 분명히 의사로서 반유대주의(또는 소위 반유대주의)를 지적하기 위한 목적으로 위키백과에 가입했다.알데바란 스타일 it)은 진짜가 아니라 '유대인종 로비'에 의한 '유대인 POV 푸싱'에 불과하다.이와 같이 그는 "너무 친유대적인 로비""종족적인 카톨릭 POV에 대한 유대인 POV를 두려워" 그리고 일반적으로 사람과 집단을 "유대인"으로 명확하게 구별하기 위해 "유대인 POV"의 균형을 맞추는 데 도움을 주는 편집을 해왔다.알데바란 박사는 이 직책에 자신의 철학의 일부를 제시한다.나는 그 닥터를 제출한다.알데바란의 견해와 편집은 위키백과보다는 메타페이시아에 더 적합할 수 있다.Jayjg 13:04, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

AAaa 그리고 그들은 Bb23에 의해 차단되었다. -미친 남자 (채널 2) 14:59, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇다, 이스빌리(토크 · 기여 · 페이지는 움직인다 · 현재의 자동 잠금 · 블록 로그)의 한 조각으로서 - 그것은 이스빌리야가 특정 범주를 창조하는 것(그리고 그들의 진행 중인 삭제 논의를 더 이해할 수 있게 한다.Jayjg 15:22, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

댄 Vs.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

제랄도 페레즈와 내가 이 글에서 sysop 도움을 받을 수 있을까? 페이지 반보호와 프록시 IP가 차단되어야 한다.LTA가 페이지를 방해하고 있다.홈랜더(토크) 01:31, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

IP가 두 개뿐, 현재 반 보호가 필요한지 확실하지 않다.더 큰 문제는 웹호스트 범위에 있는 IP가 162.220.51.129(토크 · 기여)와 82.223.108.106(토크 · 기여)이다.Sometguy1221 (대화) 01:48, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
Someguy1221, [1]은 둘 다 대리점임을 나타낸다.홈랜더(토크) 01:52, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 웹 프록시 및 코로케이션 호스트 범위를 차단했다.Sasquatch t c 03:10, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Michael Gough(크리케터) - 페이지 보호 요청

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕. 이것은 WP에 기록되어 있다.RFP는 그러나 일부 인도 크리켓 팬들이 그가 2019 크리켓 월드컵에서 내린 결정에 불만을 품은 데 이어 현재 의 기사는 BLP 위반으로 열광하고 있다.누군가 페이지를 보호해 주면 고맙겠어.고마워요.러그넛 11:11, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 행정관님들, 손가락을 빼십시오.우리 비관리자들은 다이크를 연결할 충분한 손가락이 없다.던컨힐 (대화) 11시 25분, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
@Malcolmxl5: 자물쇠 추가해줘서 고마워.러그넛 11시 31분, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

네이트 스피드

그가 다시 돌아왔어...https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=94.69.61.55&limit=50.그는 오래 전에 금지되었다.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=790555410#Site_ban_for_Nate_Speed Nigos (t@lk 기여) 02:42, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]을 참조하십시오.

IP 차단 60시간. --말콤xl5 (대화) 03:01, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
El C가 다른 IP를 차단하고 페이지를 반보호했다. --Malcomxl5 (대화) 03:16, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

문제가 해결되었음에도 불구하고 등록되지 않은 IP 사용자 공격

87.75.117.183 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

사용자 87.75.117.183은 WP를 위반했을 수 있다.위키백과 특집 {편집 요약)을 통해 무고죄로 나를 거듭 공격한 후 인신공격.나는 이 문제를 해결하기 위해 토크 페이지의 관리자에게 도움을 요청했고 그것은 그렇게 했다.무거운 이슈에도 불구하고, 등록되지 않은 ip 사용자들은 계속 공격한다. 나는 사용자들이 다른 계정에 대한 공격이나 나를 그룹화하기 위해 여러 계정을 사용하는 것을 차단당했을 수도 있다고 믿는다.문제가 정리된 후, 나는 반복적으로 편집 요약을 사용하여 공격하기 시작한 미등록 ip 사용자에 대한 대응을 중지한다.나는 이틀 정도 이슈가 된 페이지에서 빠져 있었다.나는 새 문제를 다루기 위해 무능력한 행정관을 두기로 결정했다.Proof 1 Proof 2 Proof 3Proof 4Regice2020 (토크) 00:00, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

인신공격은 편집된 것이 아니라 동일한 기사의 다른 버전이기 때문에 당신이 제시한 링크에서 보기 어렵다.당신이 불쾌하다고 생각하는 편집 요약을 보여주는 다양하고 구체적인 편집을 제공할 수 있는가?고마워요.리즈 00:56, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
팁.... WP: 참조:DIF도움말:페이지 기록.여기서 가장 잘 되는 것은 이와 같은 차이점이다.나는 이 페이지의 버전 이력에서 그 URL을 얻었어.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:09, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
IP는 Regice2020의 선의 편집 내용을 반달리즘(bandalism)이라고 두어 번 표기한 것으로 보인다(예: [2] 참조).그러나, Regice2020은 사실 "정리된 이슈"로서 연계된 토론이 제3자 편집자 MelanieN이 Regice2020이 제거하고 있던 자료의 IP에 동의하는 것처럼 보인다는 것을 보여주는 것임을 알아야 한다.@Regice2020: 내용 분쟁이 있고 토론 결과에 만족하지 못하면 ANI가 아닌 적절한 분쟁 해결 메커니즘으로 눈을 돌려야 한다.편집한 내용을 반달리즘이라고 잘못 표기하는 것 외에 IP가 관여하는 데 필요한 "무자비한 관리자"가 한 일은 무엇인가? --Jprg1966(talk) 01:21, 2019년 6월 26일(UTC)[응답]
그 사람이 고발했듯이, 나도 "인신공격"의 리스트에 골치 아픈 소송 당사자를 추가하고 싶다.Regice2020은 내가 나만의 이념적 이유로 고정 IP 주소를 사용하는 미등록 사용자라는 사실에 큰 문제가 있는 것으로 보인다.그는 라이젠 기사를 먼저 개선하려 하지도 않고, 심지어 자신의 토크 페이지에 글을 올리지도 않고 삭제를 요청했다.당연히 그 요청은 거절당했다.그리고 나서 그는 그것을 보호해 달라고 요청함으로써 내가 그것을 편집하는 것을 막으려고 했다.그것이 거부되었을 때, 그는 몇 시간 후에 다시 시도했다.그 역시 실패하자 그는 기사를 교란적으로 편집하기 시작했으며(중대한 부분을 삭제) 잘못된 날짜가 적힌 태그를 추가하여 그것이 오랜 기간 지속된 이슈를 가지고 있다는 것을 암시하고 도전할 때 그는 그에게 되돌아가서 합의를 모색할 필요가 있다고 말했다.그는 물러서지 않고 계속 논쟁을 벌였기 때문에 '깨끗이'는 내가 한 것이다나는 그를 토론에 끌어들이려고 여러 번 노력했지만 그는 거절했다.내가 그를 방해 편집자 또는 반달이라고 부른 것이 잘못이라면 그렇게 할 것이다. 87.75.117.183 (대화) 01:53, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
레기체2020을 파괴적 편집자라고 부르는 경우가 있는 것처럼 들리지만, 반달은 아니다.그것이 중요한 차이처럼 보이지는 않지만, 사람들의 동기를 잘못 묘사하는 것을 피하기 위해 콘텐츠 분쟁이 있을 때 항상 도움이 된다.이 논쟁에서 당신이 틀렸다고 말하는 것이 아니라, 단지 명심해야 할 것이다. --Jprg1966(talk) 02:08, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 너의 요점을 이해한다.지적해줘서 고마워.편집 전쟁의 위험이 전혀 없었던 것은 아니다.나는 Regice2020에게 내가 하나에 말려들지 않을 것이라고 분명히 말했으나 그는 나의 존재를 거의 인정하지 않는다.나는 그가 스스로 그렇게 할 의사가 없다는 것을 두 번째로 보여주었을 때 그의 파괴적인 편집을 되돌렸을 뿐이다.87.75.117.183 (대화) 02:25, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
라이젠 페이지는 여전히 너무 기술적이고 2017년 편집의 다른 이슈들이 너무 많다.우리는 Ryzen 5, Ryzen 7, Ryzen 9가 Intel과 대등하게 맞는지 모른다. 내 말은 이 사람은 어떤 일이 선의로 끝나더라도 계속 갈 것이라는 뜻이다.나는 귀찮지 않다.지금 당장은 여러 명의 사용자들이 "열"을 너무 많이 사용하므로 더 많은 사람들이 곤경에 처할 수 있다.나는 단지 며칠에서 일주일 사이에 "열"이 식도록 하기 위해 이것의 폐쇄를 요청할 것이다.나는 그 라이젠 페이지나 심지어 며칠에서 일주일 동안 편집하기 위해 가끔 오는 팬들도 신경 쓰지 않을 거야.고마워요.Regice2020 (토크) 02:28, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC) 좋은 하루 보내세요 [응답]
좋은 생각인 것 같아. --Jprg1966 02:37, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

항상 그렇듯이, WP:는 이 보고서를 철회하고 싶다.Regice2020 (대화) 02:45, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

그건 매우 현명한 일이오. 그리고 나는 당신이 를 WP로 고발한 적이 있다는 것을 잊을 것이다.COI. 87.75.117.183 (대화) 02:49, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
자, 스틱을 내려놓고 이동합시다. --Jprg1966 03:11, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 내 토크 페이지의 토론이 여기에 인용된 것을 알겠다.내가 그 기록에 대해 요약하겠다.나는 며칠 전 라이젠 페이지 보호를 위한 그들의 RFPP 요청을 거절했을 때 처음 리지스를 만났다.이전에 다른 관리자에 의해 거부된 적이 있었지만, 보관되자마자 Regice는 같은 요청을 다시 올렸고, 나는 그들을 꾸짖었다.그리고 나서 그들은 이 ANI와 비슷한 불평을 가지고 내 토크 페이지에서 내게 접근했다.당시 나의 분석은 다음과 같다.Regice는 IP가 복원하고 있는 오래 된 콘텐츠를 반복적으로 제거하고 있었다.나는 리지스에게 오랫동안 지속되어온 내용을 삭제하기 위해 토크 페이지에서 의견 일치를 얻어야 한다고 말했다. 그들은 아직 그곳에 게시되지 않았다.나는 그들이 나를 이해했는지 잘 모르겠고, 나는 확실히 그들을 이해하는데 어려움을 겪고 있다.IP가 그들을 "성난 소송자"로 특징짓는 것은 장점이 있다고 생각하는데 ANI가 레기스의 마지막을 보지 못한 것 같다. -- 멜라닌 (대화) 04:44, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

위키백과의 람블링 맨:Wikimedia Foundation의 Doc James에서 Fram#Update 금지 조치에 대한 커뮤니티 대응

즉시 보관 요청 중...

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

누가 위키피디아 좀 봐줄래?위키미디어 재단이 제임스 박사로부터 프람#업데이트를 금지한 것에 대한 지역사회 반응과 더 이상의 람블링맨 참여가 토론에 유익한지를 결정한다.내게는 분명히 괴롭힘처럼 보이지만, 나는 연루되어 있고 편파적일 수 있다.--ymblanter (대화) 19:16, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]

그래서 기본적으로 당신은 이사진을 비판하는 사람은 누구든 그들을 모욕하고 있다고 말하고 있다.이제 웹사이트를 닫는 게 좋겠어.나이젤 이스 (토크) 19:17, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 이건 내 말이 아니야.실제로 같은 페이지에 있는 다른 실에 있는 이사진을 비판한다.--Ymblanter (토크) 19:20, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 존스 박사에게 자신이 "구름 아래" 있는 것에 대해 책임지지 않는다고 말하는 것이 "고충"에 해당한다고 해도, 이 프로젝트가 그러한 어려움에 처해 있는 것은 놀랄 일이 아니다.The Rambling Man (talk) 19:21, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]

:: 음, 당신은 이 실에 있는 그의 모든 게시물에 답했고, 당신의 모든 답변은 극도로 부정적이고, 대부분은 요령부득이다. 괴롭힘입니다.---Ymblanter (talk) 19:28, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC) ec with close (i) and TRM (ii)--Ymblanter (talk) 19:30, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]

지금 당장 떠나야 할 시간이야, 위와 같이.그만 극복해라.The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
임블란터, IMO The Rambling Man이 옳다.감사합니다.Drmies (토크) 19:50, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 내가 그 실에서 보는 것은 <람블링맨>의 정상적인 행동이다.거의 없는 상황에서, 어떤 일을 하기 위한 합의가 있을지는 확실하지 않다. 컴포니언727 19:31, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
    그렇다, 보통은 토론을 정상 궤도로 되돌리고 일부 사용자들이 커뮤니티를 지배한다고 믿지 않도록 하는 데 초점을 맞춘다.상식.The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
  • ^^ 이것은 왜 사람들이 위키에 대한 불친절함을 다루려고 하지 않고 신뢰와 안전으로 이메일을 보내거나 위키피디아를 아예 그냥 놔두는지를 보여주는 예다.이것은 TRM의 프램반 관련 참여에 관한 두 번째 ANI 나사산이며 즉시 폐쇄된다.Doc James에 대한 TRM의 논평과 BU Rob에 대한 그의 이전 논평은 맞지 않았다.그들은 괜찮지 않았고, 편집자들이 토론하기 위해 그것을 여기에 올렸을 때, 그 실들은 당장 닫히지 말았어야 했다.동료들에게 의견을 말할 기회조차 주지 않고 결정을 내릴 수 있다고 가정하고 몇 시간 안에 토론을 중단하는 것은 오만하며, 마치 자신의 의견만이 중요한 것처럼, 마치 자신의 의견만이 하나의 실마리를 닫을 필요가 없는 것처럼 말이다. Levivich 04:46, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 레비비치, 넌 좋은 점을 제기했어.템퍼는 짧고 신경이 날카로워지며, 그것은 참가자가 무언가를 말하게 하거나 그들이 보통 말하지 않을 수도 있다.가장 좋은 답변은?어떤 사람들은 일찍 반응하는 것이 상황을 진정시키는 가장 좋은 방법이라고 충고할지도 모른다.다른 사람들은 누군가에게 약간의 힘을 내도록 허락하고, 그 말을 너무 심각하게 받아들이지 말고, 문자 그대로의 말보다 그 뒤에 숨은 동기를 이해하려고 노력하고, 나아가게 하는 것이 최선이라고 생각할지도 모른다.나는 정답이 그러한 선택들 중 하나가 아니라, 내가 말해야 할 것은, 정답은 구체적인 상황, 논평하는 구체적이고 개인, 그리고 (슬프게) 반응을 하는 개인에 달려 있다는 것이다.이로 인해 고조된 긴장에 대한 공식적 반응을 파악하기 어렵다.S 필브릭(토크) 11시 30분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 여기서 논의를 계속할 수 있는데, 나는 "람블링맨"의 어조가 연결된 토론에서 적대적이었고, 위키백과에서 "적대적"과 "독성" 그리고 "비공산적" 행태에 대한 우려가 있기 때문에 우리가 하는 것이 중요하다고 생각한다.사람들은 무엇이 미개하고, 무엇이 괴롭힘을 구성하고, 무엇이 사람들을 달갑지 않게 만드는지에 대해 의견의 차이를 가질 수 있다. 그리고 사람들은 그 교환을 보고 TRM의 어조가 얼마나 적절하거나 도움이 되었는지에 대해 다른 견해를 가질 수 있다.그러나 우리가 얼마나 많은 사람들이 괜찮다고 생각하는지, 그리고 얼마나 많은 사람들이 TRM이 그것을 누그러뜨릴 것이라고 생각하는지, 그리고 무엇이 좋고 무엇이 받아들일 수 없는지에 대한 합의를 모색하기 위해 그러한 행동을 공개적으로 논의할 준비가 될 때까지, 우리는 우리 사회가 독성이 있다는 우려를 해결할 가능성이 거의 없다.
나는 TRM이 그 거래소에서 한 말이 제재될 수 있다고 느끼는가?아니. 나는 그의 어조가 적대적이었다고 느끼는가, 그리고 그 상황에서 부적절하고 도움이 되지 않는다고 생각하는가?그래. 30분 동안 그는 의사 제임스에게 다음과 같은 8단계의 부정적인 발언을 했다. "너 감히 보일러 판을 가지고 오지 마.벌써 3주나 지났잖아한심하다." "제임스 의사의 공헌은 역사적으로 경이로운 것이 분명하지만, 그가 우리 공동체의 일원으로 남아 있다면, 그는 이 상황, 그리고 현재 진행중인 불협화음은 완전히 용납될 수 없다는 것을 받아들여야 한다." "만약 당신이 정말로 여전히 우리 공동체의 일원으로서 자신을 생각한다면, 당신은 왜 일주일 더 기다리는 것이 우나인지 100% 이해하게 될 것이다.셉터블 맞지?""그 문제에 대한 당신의 의견은 흥미롭지만, 그것은 정확히 관련이 없다." "그건 완전히 헛소리야.사임한 관리들과 범죄자들이 구름 아래서 그렇게 했는지 아닌지는 의사 제임스에게 달려 있지 않다.그것은 잘못된 방향이고 당면한 문제와는 전혀 무관하다."내가 말했듯이, 그건 의사 제임스에게 달려 있지 않아."
그것은 마치 TRM이 그의 비장을 분출하는 것이 더 중요한 것처럼 내가 보기에 그러한 비장을 받는 사람에게 미칠 수 있는 누적된 영향을 고려하는 것보다 다소 제멋대로인 것처럼 보인다.제임스 박사의 입장에 대한 사려 깊은 이해와 성찰적인 이해가 실종되었다.그러한 행동은 소름 끼치는 효과를 가지고 있고, 만약 그들이 그러한 대우를 받을 경우에 사람들이 말하는 것을 단념시킬 수 있다.이미 경색된 이런 상황에서 누군가의 노력을 인정받지 못하는 것이 아니라 완전히 무시하는 것은 사직을 초래할 수 있다.남들을 대변할 수는 없지만, 프람의 금지가 발표된 순간부터 사표가 마음에 걸렸고, 캐서린 마허의 지적에 따라 나의 노력에 대해 무시당하고 인정받지 못한다고 느꼈던 것이 몇 번이나 아주 가까이 다가왔다고 말할 수 있다.
우리는 커뮤니티 회원이나 WMF의 CEO가 우리를 불쾌하게 할/업데이트할/애니/해킹할 사람을 고르고 선택할 수 없기 때문에, 그러한 코멘트의 수신 끝에서 우리가 말하는 것을 보고 어떻게 느끼는지를 고려하는 것은 우리 모두의 몫이다.그렇다, 이것들은 가열된 시간이고, 폭발은 어느 정도 이해할 수 있다. 그러나, 특히 여러 사용자가 그러한 분출이 도움이 되지 않는다고 제안할 때, 30분간의 분출은 나에게 자기 방종적이고 비생산적인 것으로 보인다.실크토크 (토크) 07:45, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 실크토크의 발언에서 좋은 점을 많이 발견한다.나는 TRM의 주장의 전반적인 추진에는 대체로 동의하지만, 나는 그가 자신의 주장을 펴기 위해 필요한 것을 넘어선다고 생각한다.그러나 이것은 정상적인 상황이 아니다.공동체는 극도로 불행해졌고, 의사 제임스는 피뢰침으로 오용되었다.불행하게도, DocJames는 눈에 잘 띄고 노출된 위치에 있으며 그는 건재한 것 같다.나는 가장 잘 할 수 있는 것은 TRM에게 정중하게 상기시켜주는 것이라고 생각한다. Doc의 경우 위키피디아는 그의 시간을 완전히 통제하지도 않고 WMF 이사회의 내부 과정도 통제하지 못하는 상당히 중요한 삶을 살고 있다.완벽하지 않은 모든 것이 AN/I의 경우는 아니다. --Stephan Schulz (대화) 08:14, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
공평하게 말하자면, 내가 연결한 바로 그 주제에서 나는 TRM에게 정중하게 그만하라고 부탁했고 내 일에 신경 쓰라고 했다.나는 이전에는 어떤 식으로든 관여하지 않았고, 남은 유일한 선택은 이곳에 가는 것이었다.제재는 어떤 의미도 가질 수 있다, 나는 블록이나 토픽 반을 고집하는 것이 아니라, 어떻게든 이런 행동이 정말 용납될 수 없다는 메시지를 보내야 한다.-임블란터 (대화) 08:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

SilkTork - 당신의 소심한 답변이 모든 것을 말해준다.당신은 용납할 수 없는 행동을 달래고 달래는 과정에서 그것을 묵인한다.그것을 묵인함에 있어서 당신은 직접적으로 다른 사람들이 그 행동을 믿고 유지하도록 장려하고 격려한다.이것이 우리가 지금 있는 이유다.당신은 말 그대로 기득권 편집자들에 대한 조치를 취하는 것을 두려워한다.그것은 명백한 결함이고 당신들의 특정 그룹은 고의적으로 맹목적이다.새는 솥(토크) 08:36, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

SilkTork의 말이 맞아. 제재할 수는 없지만, 아마 도움이 되지 않을 거야.많은 사람들이 그렇듯이 TRM은 당연히 화가 났지만, James 박사에게 화풀이하는 것은 도움이 되지 않는다.내가 존경하는 편집자를 거들먹거리는 꼴을 당할 위험을 무릅쓰고 (여기서 나보다 훨씬 더 많은 경험을 하면서) 나는 그에게 이 다짐을 상기시켜 주곤 했다.솥뚜껑도 마찬가지야. 넌 다른 방향으로 분출하고 있잖아.만약 TRM이 Doc James를 괴롭히고 있다면, Silk Tork에 대한 당신 자신의 반응을 어떻게 설명하시겠습니까?우리 모두 진정하고 서로 물지 말자.GirthSummit (blether) 08:40, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그것은 같은 것이 아니다.나는 20분 동안 10개의 적대적이고 맹렬한 편집으로 누군가를 공격한 적이 없다.그는 높은 수준의 업무 담당자야 - 사실 나는 그에게서 반응을 기대한다.왜 제재가 안 되는가? - 다른 내부 프람게이트를 초대하고 싶지 않기 때문이다.새는 솥(토크) 08:46, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
행정 조치를 취했어.제재가 아니다.신입 편집자와 "고급 기능사" 사이에는 차이가 있다.나중에 자발적으로 가시성(및 영향력)의 위치에 발을 들여놓으며 더 많은 낙오자를 처리할 준비를 해야 한다. --Stephan Schulz (대화) 08:58, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
Stephan Schulz 나는 당신의 행정 조치가 정확히 그 상황이 요구하는 것이었고, 매우 요령 있게 말했다.모든 곳에서 그런 종류의 것이 더 좋을 것이다.GirthSummit (blether) 09:21, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
Girth Summit, 합의 S Philbrick (Talk) 11:38, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
"당신의 소심한 대응이 모든 것을 말해준다." "당신은 말 그대로 기득권 편집자에 대한 조치를 취하는 것을 두려워한다."와 "..."와 같은 '누출 솥'이 여기서 유용한 공헌을 했다고 생각한다.당신은 고의적으로 눈이 멀었다"는 말은 공손한 토론에서 약간 불쾌한 것으로 넘어가는 논평이다.그러나 Leaky 솥은 내가 그러한 행동에 대해 충분히 강한 입장을 취하지 않았기 때문에 나를 불쾌하게 했다.나는 우리가 언제 도로의 분노에 빠졌는지 볼 수 있을 만큼 충분히 성찰적이라고 생각하지 않는다.솥뚜껑, TRM이 제임스 박사에게 한 짓과 네가 방금 내게 한 짓의 본질적 차이점은 뭐야?당신의 답변은 도움이 될 수 있는데, 내가 생각하기에 적대적인 대부분의 사람들은 그들이 그렇지 않다고 생각하거나, 그들은 그들이 어떤 이유 때문에 전적으로 정당하다고 생각한다.실크토크 (대화) 09:35, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • @Stephan Schulz: "닥의 경우 위키백과에서 벗어난 꽤 의미 있는 삶" 아, 물론, 우리 나머지 사람들은 하찮은 삶을 살고 있다.물론 너는 네가 한 말의 의미를 부정할 것이다.던컨힐 (대화) 09:38, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 뭐라고? --Stephan Schulz (대화) 09:40, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 이해가 안 돼?권력자들이 없는 사람들을 어떻게 대하느냐에 대한 모든 헛소문은, 당신은 권력을 가진 사람들 중 한 사람을 의미있는 삶을 살고 있고, 우리 나머지 사람들의 삶을 폄하하는 암시에 의해 배제하고, 권력을 가진 그 "중대한 삶"은 그에게 좌절감을 정직하게 표현하지 않는 이유가 되고, 당신은 그것을 이해하지 못하는가?던컨힐 (대화) 09:49, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
던컨힐, 그만 좀 비아냥거릴까?Doc James는 응급실 의사다 - 그가 비정상적으로 시간이 많이 걸리고 중요한 직업을 가지고 있다는 것을 언급하는 것은 다른 모든 사람들이 대수롭지 않다고 말하는 것과 같지 않다.이 모든 부정성은 필요 없다.GirthSummit (blether) 09:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
@거스 서밋:만약 그의 직업이 그가 제때에 이사회에서 직무를 수행하는 것을 방해한다면, 나는 그가 명예로운 일을 할 것이라고 확신한다.아무도 그에게 이사회에 가라고 강요하지 않았다.아무도 강요하지 않았어그들은 선택했다.나는 우리 중 많은 사람들이 후원을 받는 것에 신물이 났을 것이라고 확신한다.이사회는 너무 어려워서, 모두 너무 바빠서 제때에 제대로 대응하지 못할 거야!확실히 하자면, 나는 의사에게 한 사람으로서 진력하고 있는 것이 아니라, 그는 다른 대부분의 이사회들과는 달리, 시도하고 있는 것 같다. 그리고 그는 실제로 의미 있게 반응하고 있는데, 나머지 이사진들로부터 많은 것을 배울 수 있었다.하지만 필요할 때 나설 수 있다는 확신이 없이 이사회에 오르는 것과 같은 책임을 떠맡지는 것은 아니다.올라갈 수 없는 보드는 올라가야 한다.사람은 닥을 편집자로서, 그리고 인간으로서 엄청난 존경을 가질 수 있고, 여전히 이사회가 그럴 자격이 있을 때 강한 언어로 비판할 수 있다.던컨힐 (대화) 10시 3분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 던컨힐의 말에 전적으로 동의한다. 이사회를 비판하고 심지어 강한 언어를 사용하는 것은 항상 허용되어야 한다.난 단지 스테판의 말을 다른 지역사회에서 조금이라도 이해시킬 필요는 없다는 거야.그는 우리가 제임스 박사를 그의 직업 때문에 게으름을 피운다고 옹호하고 있었다. 당신은 그 입장에 반대할 자격이 충분히 있지만, 스테판의 말을 지역사회에 대한 모욕과 동일시하지 않고서도 그렇게 할 수 있는가?GirthSummit (blether) 10:21, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
우리 모두는 외압과 스트레스 그리고 책임감을 가지고 있다.우리들 중 몇몇은 그것들을 사용자 페이지에 올렸고, 몇몇은 그렇지 않다.우리 모두는 의미 있는 삶을 살고 있다.Stephan은 몇몇 편집자들이 다른 사람들보다 더 많은 배려를 받을 자격이 있다고 가정해서는 안 된다. 왜냐하면 그가 우리 중 대다수의 입장을 알 수 없을 때 그들의 비위키적인 삶을 살고 있기 때문이다.던컨힐 (대화) 10:31, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 정말로 나는 우리 모두가 합리적인 정도의 게으름을 피워야 한다고 생각한다.나는 또한 만약 당신이 WMF 이사회에서 그들의 모든 시간과 에너지를 단지 이사회에만 쓸 수 있는 사람들을 허용한다면, 당신은 백만장자 연극인들과 부랑자들만 이사회에 있을 것이라고 생각한다.대부분의 사람들에게 경쟁적인 의무를 가지고 있고 균형을 맞춰야 하는 것은 정상이다.이것은 캐서린 마허에게는 다를 것이다 - 그녀는 이런 종류의 일을 풀타임으로 하도록 돈을 받는다.나는 또한 마인드 리더를 당신이 그것을 산 곳 어디든 돌려주고 전액 환불을 요청하는 것을 제안한다.그것은 다른 사람들의 가정을 결정하는데 매우 나쁘다.그리고 시간이 좀 있으시다면 두 WP를 살펴보십시오.AGF자선의 원칙. --Stephan Schulz (토크) 11:32, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그들의 모든 시간과 에너지?내가 그런 말 안 했어, 너도 알잖아.나는 필요할 때 발돋움하는 것에 대해 이야기했다.던컨힐 (대화) 13:45, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 당신이 진지하게, 진지하게 내 싱글 앨범을 비교한다면, 여기에 있는 당신에 대한 정확한 반응이라고 생각한다면, 반복된 담즙과 욕설의 분노에 찬 분노에 찬 분노에 사로잡힌다면, 글쎄, 난 할 말이 없다.차이점은 다음과 같다.누가 대상인지, 왜 대응이 필요한지 고민했다.한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디나는 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디 한 마디를 복습했다.나는 그것이 맥락에서 어떻게 보일지 미리 살펴보았다.나는 그것을 기존의 편집자들을 다루기 위한 반복적인 실패의 정확한 요약으로 지지한다.당신이 나에게 위협을 가한다는 사실("혐오스러운 일에 넘어간다")은 전적으로 나의 요점을 증명한다."강력하지 못한 행동"이 아니라 "무단한 행동"을 취한 것이다.그건 다른 사람에게 맡겼어. :) 새는 솥(토크) 09:51, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
Silk Tork은 Leaky 조치를 취했다. 그들은 여기에 TRM의 행동에 비판적인 장황하고, 신중하고, 재치있는 의견을 쓰고, 이 지속적인 논의를 촉발시켰고, 이는 결국 Stephan의 어떤 추가 행동을 이끌어 냈는데, 이는 실제로 아무도 막거나 대규모 싸움을 벌이지 않고도 문제를 해결할 수 있는 것이다.실크 토크가 취할 수 있었던 더 적절한 행동은 생각할 수 없다.GirthSummit (blether) 10:00, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
당신의 논평이 유출된 것은 "정확한 대응으로 간주되는 싱글"이 아니라, 이 난장판을 뚫고 길을 찾으려는 존경 받는 행정관에 대한 무례하고 불쾌한 공격이었다.IMHO 우리 모두는 여기서 벗어나야 하지만 당신이 불평하고 있는 바로 그 일을 하고 있고, 행동을 요구하는 것은 그것을 이루기 위한 방법이 아니다.WP 제안:TRM과 LC 모두 예의와 괴롭힘이 엔위키 정책의 일부라는 점을 지적하고 이 실을 은둔한다.아마쿠루 (토크) 10:26, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
아마쿠라 너는 틀렸어, 싱글이었고 고려되었어.하지만 내가 행복하게 받아들일 것을 너에게 말해줄게.만약 당신이 내가 무례하고 불쾌해서 어떤 식으로든 행동할 수 있다고 믿는다면, 그 접근방식이 헤비급, 타임 서빙 편집자, 그리고 서로를 위해 수레바퀴를 돌면서 행동하는 관리자들을 포함한 모든 사람들에게 동등하게 적용되도록 하라.나는 13년 동안 여기에 있었다.2010년 전에는 기름진 관리대에 올라가지 않았는데, 그때는 네가 겨우 연장이라도 구해야 했을 때였어, 라고 말하게 되어 기쁘구나.그러나 나의 공헌은 내가 일해 온 한정된 분야에서 누구보다도 소중하다.실크 토크는 편집자에게 직접 연설할 수도 있었는데, 여기서가 아니라 그의 토크 페이지에서 정면으로 말했을 수도 있다.의심의 여지없이 나였다면, 나의 TP는 공식적인 경고로 넘쳐났을 것이다.새는 솥(토크) 11시 58분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

가 보기에 람블링맨스파이더맨 복장을 벗고 라이히스타그에서 내려올 필요가 있다.그는 WMF의 지역사회와의 소통 부족을 좋아하지 않는다.동감이다그는 캐서린 마허의 선동적인 트윗을 좋아하지 않는다.동감이다그는 익명의 '붉은 색의 여자들'이 프람에서 화살을 쏘는 것을 좋아하지 않았다.나는 동의했다.그러나 어찌된 일인지 나는 그 과정에서 엄청난 구경거리를 만들지 않고 이 모든 요점을 겨우 만들어냈다.TRM, 당신은 그 프로젝트에 대한 발전이 싫어서 은퇴하셨습니다.괜찮아, 하지만 은퇴하면 편집은 그만둬. 그렇지 않으면 그냥 드라마 창녀가 되는 거야.리치333 10(cont):30, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

그는 은퇴한 것이 아니라, 여전히 그의 토크 페이지보다 더 많은 것을 게시하고 있다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:41, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
(ec) 그는 결코 혼자가 아니다.퇴직을 주장하면서도 사방에 공격을 퍼붓는 다른 편집자를 지목해 막혔다.던컨힐 (대화) 10시 46분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
전직 관리인이 있는데 그는 또한 비슷한 방식으로 은퇴했다.———SerialNumber54129 11:54, 2019년 6월 29일(UTC)[응답]
리치의 말에 동의해.TRM, 나는 너를 많이 좋아하고 존경해, 너는 프로젝트의 가장 큰 관심사를 가지고 있어, 철학적으로 나는 너의 관점에 동의해.그리고 여러분이 메인 페이지를 오류로부터 보호하기 위해 하는 작업과 생산된 특집 콘텐츠의 라이브러리가 귀중하다는 것을 부인하는 사람은 거의 없다.하지만 지난 ArbCom 청문회에서 공격적인 포스트를 자제하겠다고 약속하셨으니 그 뒤를 따르도록 노력해 주십시요.우리 모두는 위키의 관점에 대해 감정적이 되고 강하게 느끼지만, 궁극적으로는 철사의 끝에 있는 다른 인간들인데, 당신도 그렇게 소리치는 것을 좋아하지 않을 것이다.(그리고 은퇴 문제에 대해서도, 최근에 다른 편집자들도 그러한 취지의 템플릿을 올렸는데, 여전히 참가하고 있다...별로 의미가 없는 것 같고, 반칙도 모르는 것 같다) 건배 — 아마쿠루 (토크) 10:45, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그것이 나의 요점이다, 어떤 은퇴에 대한 요구도 오늘날 ANI에서는 전혀 무관하며, 절대 고려되어서는 안 된다.중요한 것은 말이 아니라 행동이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:49, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
세컨드 실크 토크.어떤 미국적 신학적 개념인 '인간 영혼의 공학'에 대한 WMF의 모든 열정은 편집자들 밑에 5,870,000개의 기사를 가진 백과사전이 이 über-bureauraucrrratic finessing 없이 행해진다는 생각만으로, 단지 새로운, 새로운, 새로운, 새로운 것이 절실히 필요하다는 생각만으로, 편집자들 밑에 터무니없이 지뢰밭을 두는 것이다.약간 거칠거나 뉘앙스에 대한 사회 언어적 둔감 때문에 위축된 사람들을 끌어들이기 위해 까다로운 미스 매너 문화.우리는 이미 일관된 나쁜 행동을 제재하는 규칙을 가지고 있기 때문이다.완곡한 표현에 대한 이 미국적 집착이 끈을 단단히 묶지 않고 그대로 두면 사라질 수 있는 어리석음의 다른 예를 하나 더 들겠다.

친애하는 빅토리아에게

당신의 최근 장학금 신청에 대해 심사위원회 위원들은 "회장"이라는 단어가 부적절하다는 것을 알아차렸다. 물론, 그녀가 특별히 그런 제한적인 언어를 요구하지 않는 한, 여성을 "회장"으로 지칭하는 것은 특히 부적절하다.곧 당신은 경력을 쌓기 시작할 때 기업이나 미디어 부문에 진출하게 될 것이다.그곳에서도, 당신은 생각 없이 언어를 사용함으로써 보이지 않게 되지 않는 여성에 대한 기대를 발견할 것이다. 내가 추천하고 싶은 많은 책들이 있다.리스트를 원하면 알려 달라'고 했다.켄터키 대학의 스콧 휘트로우는 로버트 휴즈를 인용했다. 로버트 휴즈, 1994 페이지 23.

한 규제기구에 대한 인식 부족을 피청구인과 일반 '사회'에 보이지 않는 비밀 권력을 가진 다른 규제기구를 만들거나 힘을 실어줌으로써 해결할 수 있다고 제안하는 것은 현명한 조치가 아니다.그것은 단순한 접근 방식인 내부 개혁을 피하는 전형적인 관료적 영역 다툼이다.여기서 우리가 하고 있는 것은 계몽주의의 백과사전 디지털 버전이며, 기본적인 백과사전적 목적, 상상할 수 있는 모든 주제에 대한 신뢰할 수 있는 최고 품질의 커버리지에 대한 어떠한 고려보다도, 불만이 있는 사람들에게 입법과 스타 챔버 협의회의 우선순위를 부여하는 것은 소셜 미디어 모델을 채택하려고 노력하는 것처럼 보인다(th번째).ey는 단지 수다만을 낳는다)는 엄격한 행동 모델을 만들기 위해 고용에서 누가 장려되어야 하는지에 대한-예의가 있고 나무랄 데 없는 매너 있는 사람들, 차별과 사회적 상처를 예리하게 인식해야 한다.그것은 오히려 프랑스 모델이 성직자의 관할 하에 놓였고, 디데로트, 달렘베트 등이 천칭 금지법 지수를 지배하는 기준에서 그들의 작품을 판단하는 조사의 대상이 되었더라면 훨씬 더 좋았을 것이라고 제안하는 것과 같다.엄격한 단어 감시에 의해 고안된 '협박한 가족 환경'이 지나치게 민감한 모든 사람들에게, 아마도 주제 역량과 짧은 성질을 가진 사람이 있을 것이다. 그들은 실제로 잭 해머를 켜고 락페이스 일을 하기 위해 소매를 걷어붙이기 전에, 계속해서 생각을 해야 한다는 인상에 화가 날 것이다.ng 기술 비효율성, 경험 부족, 썰매나 엑스포에 의해 괴롭힘을 느낄 수 있는 친구들의 이상한 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 신경성 장애에 직면할 경우 결코 화를 풀지 않는 것에 대해.즉, 다윈의 용어로도, 믿을 수 있는 기사를 생산할 수 있는 다양한 캐릭터로, 그러한 종류의 마음을 모집하지 않는 확실한 요리법이다.다른 선택사항도 있다.대부분의 사람들은 점잖다.문맥의 TRM(패거리에게 이치에 맞는 말을 하기 위해 소수로서 노력하는 매우 훌륭한 헌신적인 위키피디아어)은 전혀 서툴렀다.다른 편집자들은 그를 짤막하고 꾸밈새에 의해 끌어 올렸는데, 이것이 바로 그가 가야 할 길이다.누군가에게 손가락을 빼라고 적절한 숫자로 공손히 말하는 것이 괴롭힘을 당하는 보도에 대해 끝없는 불평을 하는 것보다 훨씬 더 효율적이다.수치심은 재판소 재판보다 더 나은 제재다.니시다니(토크) 10시 43분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

너희 모두 그만 좀 해.나는 제임스 의사에게 만약 그가 여전히 공동체의 일부분이라고 느낀다면 그는 이것이 완전히 용납될 수 없다는 것에 동의할 것이라고 말했다.나는 또한 그에게 그가 구름 아래서 누가 사임했는지에 대한 결정을 내리는 사람이 아니라고 말했다.바로 그겁니다.이제 제발 포기해.The Rambling Man (talk) 10:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

  • ANI는 BU Rob, Doc James, 그리고 아마도 다른 곳에서 TRM의 의견을 논의하기 위한 적절한 장소다.만성적인 문제인데, 그것도 급한 것 같아.TRM의 참여가 문제가 되긴 했지만 꼭 차단하거나 금지할 가치가 있는 것은 아니라는 점을 포함한 위의 많은 것에 동의한다.그러나, 위의 TRM의 최근 게시물에서 볼 수 있듯이, TRM이 이 피드백에 대응하여 앞으로 어떤 조정도 할 것이라는 징후가 전혀 없기 때문에, 다음에 인신공격의 대상이 될 BU Rob과 Doc James 다음으로 될 BU Rob과 Doc James의 뒤를 따라서 걱정된다.나는 또한 이 실마리를 계속 닫으려고 노력하는 관리자들을 포함한 다른 편집자들이 WP의 일반적인 패턴이고 멈춰야 하는 이런 행동을 완전히 가능하게 하는 것에 대해 더욱 더 걱정된다."잠깐 싹을 틔워라"는 것이 그것을 곪게 하는 것보다 훨씬 낫다. (그것은 반해머를 무너뜨린다는 뜻이 아니라, 단지 지역사회의 기대가 무엇인지 분명하게 말하라.) – 레비비치 13:45, 2019년 6월 29일.
내가 그 섹션에서 볼 수 있는 적어도 5명의 관리자가 이것을 간단히 종료할 것이다.위에서 언급했듯이 마차를 빙빙 돌면서.이곳은 전혀 무의미한 장소다.새는 솥(토크) 13:49, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 당신이 이 게시물들이 계속해서 토론을 재개하기 위한 엄청난 규모의 괴롭힘이라고 솔직히 믿는다면, 나는 내가 WMF에 근거한 1년 동안의 비밀 금지의 다음 줄에 서게 될 것이라고 추측할 것이다.어떻게 되어 가는지 봅시다.The Rambling Man (talk) 14:17, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

이 대화에서는 어떤 건설적인 것도 나오지 않을 것이다.<람블링맨>의 행동 방식이 프로젝트 공간에서 그가 기여하는 어떤 유용성에도 밑받침이 된다고 내가 처음으로 말하는 사람이겠지만, 그것은 여기에도 없고 거기에도 없다.백과사전에는 불이 붙는 다른 부분이 있다.그냥 놔둬.맥켄센 (대화) 14:26, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

운영 중단 및 괴롭힘을 위한 블록 SPA 사용자

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2019년 6월 12일 이 기사는 The Banner에 의해 AfD 후보로 지명되었다.

하루 후인 6월 13일에 사용자 계정 Verabo가 자동으로 생성되었다.베라보 계정이 만드는 첫 번째 편집은 위에서 언급한 AfD의 투표다.

베라보는 엄청난 양의 글을 올린다.처음부터 Verabo는 개인적으로 다른 위키피디아를 공격하고 sockpuppetry의 편집자를 비난한다.게다가 Verabo는 AfD의 실제 주제가 "마스크되지 않은" 것이라고 주장한다.나머지는 대부분 근거 없는 의견과 주장에 의한 증거로 채워진다.그러나 그 포스트를 끝낼 때 베라보는 여러 사람과 산업을 대표하여 글을 쓰겠다고 주장한다.Verabo 계정을 운영하는 팀이 있다는 이미지를 투영하고자 하는 경우.

논의의 한 지점은 imdb였다.나는 골드 레벨의 imdb-pro 기고자이기 때문에 내가 도와야겠다고 생각했다.그리고 나만의 리서치를 한 후 여기에 답장을 올렸다.[3].

나의 게시물에는 베라보의 이전 게시물과 같은 인신공격, 목소리 톤, 그리고 양말퍼피에 대한 비난이 뒤따랐다.

다른 위키피디아 사람들은 베라보에게 경고하기 시작했다.

나 역시 베라보에게 인신공격과 근거 없는 비난으로 그만둘 것을 요구하면서 대답했다. "(...) 그 사람을 공격하지 말고 그들의 주장을 들어주십시오.나를 공격하지 말라"고 말했고, "우리는 가정에 근거하여 연구를 하지 말아야 하며, 반대로 보여진다면 우리의 관점을 바꿀 수 있도록 열려 있어야 한다.제발 다시는 다른 사용자를 공격하지 마십시오."

한 시간 후 베라보는 모든 경고를 무시하고 인신공격과 근거 없는 비난을 계속한다.그것은 베라보가 선의로 회답하고 있지 않다는 것을 보여주었다.베라보의 말투는 점점 더 적대적이 되어 간다.

베라보는 편집자로부터 또 다른 경고를 받는다.

이때 베라보는 나와 다른 편집자들을 상대로 스피 사건이 발포될 정도로 편집자들을 괴롭히고 있었다.spi 사건 결과는 베라보의 인신공격과 고발이 모두 사실이 아님을 확인시켜 준다.

베라보는 또 다시 자신의 토크 페이지에서 파괴적인 행동에 대해 경고를 받는다.


이것이 파괴적인 행동과 인신공격의 패턴이라는 것이 내게 분명해졌다.

베라보는 여러 편집자들로부터 중단하라는 경고를 여러 차례 받았다.그리고 나서 베라보의 행동은 스피가 발행한 지점까지 AfD를 교란시킨다.그리고 spi 결과가 베라보의 비난이 사실이 아니라는 것을 보여주자, 베라보는 인신공격과 양말퍼피에 대한 명백한 비난을 계속하고 있다.

이 시점에서 는 Verabo 계정[4]은 선의로 처리할 의도가 없었고 AfD를 교란할 목적으로 반대 견해를 가진 편집자들을 공격하기 위해 만들어졌다고 믿는다.

나는 Verabo 계정에 차단을 요청한다.이런 괴롭힘의 패턴은 그만둘 필요가 있다.감사합니다.SimonRichter1337 (대화) 14:06, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 매우 올바르고 점잖은 숙녀고 그것을 "파괴"라고 부르는 사람은 너밖에 없는 것 같다.다른 사람들은 모두 그것을 건설적이라고 부른다.논의된 모든 것이 사건의 완전성을 위해 필수적이었다.당신은 그 내용에 대해 끊임없이 논의하기를 거부한 사람이다.다른 모든 편집자들은 그랬다.좋은 하루 되세요.베라보 (대화) 14:53, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

누가 좀 그만 좀 해 줄래?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

WP:Sandbox에서 카피비오 및 트롤링을 반복적으로 게시하는 IP(추정 양말)도 있다.아담9007 (대화) 15:14, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

법적 위협

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

[5][6]에서 IP 108.161.169.19.Ifnord (대화) 22:57, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

x 48시간 업무 중단 편집 차단. -Ad Orientem(토크) 23:38, 2019년 6월 27일(UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

쿠르드족 관련 기사 사건

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

내가 토크 페이지[7]에서 설명을 요청하고 내가 노골적인 거짓말과 체리피크된[8] 문장 옆에 추가한 템플릿을 계속 제거하면, 포트베이스쿠르드어 언어학자들의 학술적 언급이 삭제되는 것을 옹호하지 못하는 것 같다.또한, 새로운 계정의 양말 꼭두각시 인형들이 무작위 페이지에 수십 개 정도 편집한 후에 이 기사를 편집하기 시작하는 것이 일반적인 추세였다.쿠르드 학자들의 위임(아무것도 사용하지 않음에도 불구하고)도 너무 흔해졌다. --아흐메도 셈수르î (대화) 14:23, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ이 시도와 노력은 전적으로 에트노 포브다.우린 중립을 지켜야 해이 기사는 문자 그대로 쿠르드어 S라고 불리기 때문에 쿠르드족이 사용하는 여러 언어를 다루고 있다.포트베이스 (토크) 14:32, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
언어학자들이 oeuvres에 근거하여 쓴 존경받는 이란이온라인의 기사를 삭제했을 때 당신은 어떻게 중립적인가?그럼에도 불구하고 나는 당신과 상의하러 온 것이 아니다. --아흐메도 셈수르(대화) 14:54, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

IP 사용자 관측 중단 MH17

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자 2001:D08:D9:7FEA:A5F5:E665:3A31:DC1E는 MH17 발생을 언급하는 페이지에서 MH17에 대한 내용을 계속 삭제하면서 "관련성이 없다"고 말한다.나이고스 (t@lk 기여) 06:36, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 이 보고서를 삭제하기 위해 IP를 두 번 차단했다.JJMC89 (T·C) 06:42, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
적어도 몇 달 동안 이 일을 해왔으니 내가 범위를 막았어.Someguy1221 (대화) 06:51, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

94.67.155.1987 및 미묘한 유사 텍스트 페이스트

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

94.67.133.161(토크 · 기여 · WHOIS)(OTEnet S.A, 그리스)은 약간의 반달리즘(블록-레디)에 빠져 있지만, 복잡하고 미묘하기 때문에 하나의 IP에만 묶여 있거나, 블록으로 멈출 것 같지 않다.

의미론적으로 유효성이 높은 보일러 플레이트 텍스트의 큰 단락이 기존 기사에 많이 연결되고 유효한 소싱(일부 인라인 EL) 없이 추가되고 있다.그들은 무의미한 것을 제외하고는 분명한 언어적 이치를 가지고 있다.강박관념과 정교하게 빛나는 녹색 크레용을 가진 사람이거나, 아니면 AI 대본을 연마하는 사람이거나.더 많은 것을 주시하라.앤디 딩리 (대화) 13:12, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

이 IP 사용자를 보고한 이후로 상황이 안정되어 있는 것 같군...~오슈와~(talk) (contribs)07:06, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

법적 위협 및 위해 위협

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

특수:Diff/904196612, 특수:Diff/904201573PaleoNeonate – 17:34, 2019년 6월 30일(UTC)[응답]

지금 막아라.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 17:36, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
막힘. --말콤플렉스5 (대화) 17:40, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이이스탈

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Iistal은 이전에 무기한으로 차단되었고, 살아 있는 사람(diff)과 관련된 어떠한 편집도 금지되는 주제와 함께 차단되지 않았다.Iistal은 한동안 이 금지령을 빙빙 돌면서 죽은 연예인들의 결혼 정보와 그들의 자녀에 대한 정보를 덧붙였는데, 그들 대부분은 아마도 아직 살고 있을 것이다.더 심각한 것은 Iistal이 심지어 출처 추가를 귀찮게 할 때 편집된 내용을 IMDb(diff and restore it)나 자체 발행 블로그(diff 1diff 2)에 인용하는 것이다.이러한 편집 중 일부는 완전히 비소싱이다(diff and restore it).나는 이제 확실히 무기한 블록을 복구해야 할 때라고 생각한다.나는 몇 달째 여러 기사에 걸쳐 Iistal을 되짚어보고 왜 이런 편집이 문제가 되는지 설명하려고 노력했으므로, 나 자신이 그것을 하기에는 너무 '인연'하다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 04:30, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 나는 무기한 차단했다.원하는 대로 블록을 해제하거나 수정하십시오.이것은 이 사용자에게는 영구적인 문제로 보인다.DLOhcierkim (talk), admin, renamer 05:40, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

위키백과 동료와의 여성 혐오 및 트랜스 공포증 농담

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

위키 Loves Pride 콘텐츠 드라이브는 5년 동안 운영되어 왔으나, 올해는 오프 위키 캠페인으로 인해 하원의원 등지에서 동성애 혐오적인 공공 기물 파괴와 학대를 초래하는 안타까운 표적이 되었다.의심스러운 탐문 수사를 하는 LGBT+ 사용자 그룹의 결과, 위키 러브스 프라이드를 직접 겨냥한 위키피디아 LGBT+ 사용자 그룹의 다음과 같은 트랜스 공포증 및 여성 혐오적 발언이나 "조크"를 우연히 보게 되었다.지아노가 같은 실에 사용한 위키_Loves_Pride_2019:

  • 그렇다면 놀랍게도, 판사들은 모두 상담이 필요할 것이다. 왜냐하면 사진의 절반은 포르노 사진이고, 건강에 대한 우려는 너무 심하기 때문이다. 그들은 모두 PMT 스트레스 장애나 그것이 무엇이라 불리는 것을 가지고 있고, 하원을 고소할 것이다.내 결혼 사진을 보내서 G부인은 사실 남자라고 말하고 지난달에 나한테 준 아주 지독한 가슴 감기 얘기를 해줘야겠어.그러면 내가 돈을 다 딸 수 있어. 산산이 흩어지다

그 말은 동성애 혐오, 여성 혐오, 트랜스 혐오다.이와 같은 공격은 위키피디아 기고자들이 동료 위키피디아 기고자들과 "바터"라는 미명 아래 그들의 위키피디아 대화 페이지에 게재하는 것을 용납할 수 없다.메타에서 강조되었다.CentralNotice/Request/Wiki_Loves_Pride_2019#Discussions_elsewhere_about_this_note_note 6명의 위키백과 관리자가 동일한 토론 쓰레드에 속했으며, 모두 편집한 지 몇 주 후였기 때문에 Giano의 코멘트를 놓쳤을 수도 있지만, 그들은 그 메타 토론에서 ping되어 코멘트를 초대받았다.지금까지 이리센트는 트랜스 공포증인 "조크"가 "나와 상관없는 일"이라는 것을 분명히 하기 위해 어떠한 조치도 취하지 않았으며, 아마도 위키백과 커뮤니티가 현재 재미로 받아들일 수 있다고 생각하는 어떤 한계점 아래에서 트랜스 공포증 농담을 발견했을 것이라고 추측한다.나머지 행정가들은 아직 논평하지 않았으며 @RexS, Johnbodd, Bishonen, Ritchie333, Jo-Jo Emerus 등이었다.

학대와 괴롭힘에 대한 행정관들과 Arbcom의 의향과 권한에 대한 검토가 이루어지고 있고, 현재의 절차와 정책은 충분한 것으로 방어되고 있으며, WMF 직원 개입을 요구하지 않는 상황에서, 위키피디아를 이용한 이번 사례가 나 스스로 방어하는 것을 포함하여, 나는 위키피디아를 이용함으로써 la를 유지하는 것을 희망한다.여성혐오적이고 공포증적인 농담을 함으로써 더디쉬 락커룸 환경은 허용되지 않는다.여기에는 Giano나 Administrators와 같은 장기간의 위키백과 기고자들이 포함되어야 하는데, 심지어 우리의 유일한 실수는 그들이 나쁘게 행동할 때 암묵적으로 주저하고 동료 기고자들을 무시하는 것이다.조치를 취하지 않을 경우 LGBT+ 위키피디아 사람들은 그들의 성별과 성적 성향에 대해 조롱과 학대를 받아야 하며, 도움을 줄 수 있는 믿을 만한 지위를 가진 사람들은 모든 사기꾼들에게 위협적이지 않고 적대적이지 않은 환경을 유지하기 보다는 "올드 보이즈"를 방어하기 위해 마차들을 앞다투어 돌아다닐 가능성이 높다는 분명한 메시지를 보낸다.조력자

고마워! (토크) 14:37, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 기운 내세요, 아마? - 시투시 (대화) 14:44, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
    • 예측 가능한 반응.cygnis 휘장 14:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 그것은 진술이 아니라 대기열이었다.FWIW, 만약 내가 장애인에 대한 어떤 언급을 볼 때마다 미이라로 달려온다면, 당신은 곧 내가 드라마를 찾고 문제를 찾는다고 비난하기 시작할 것이다.개인에게 지시하지 않는 한, 그것은 보통 악화시킬 가치가 없다.이 경우, 명백히 풍자적이다. - 시투시 (토크) 14:56, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
        • 너의 반응을 풍자로 읽고 있어, 계속 선심을 가지려고. cgnis 휘장은 15:01, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
          • 나는 풍자로도 잘 알려져 있지 않고, 만약 누군가가 나와 관련된 ABF가 쓴 대로 받아라. - 시투시 (토크) 15:03, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
유머를 가장한 여성혐오증, 동성애 혐오증, 트랜스포비아는 결코 용납하지 않는다고 말할 것이며, 당신도 그것을 알았으면 좋겠다.그러나, 신뢰안전팀이 남용과 괴롭힘에 대한 불평을 받아들이고 나서 변호나 상소를 허락하지 않고 수사관, 검사, 판사, 배심원, 집행관 등의 역할을 할 수 있는 권한을 월권한 현 상황을 고려할 때, 나는 그런 종류의 문제와 관련된 어떠한 조치도 취하지 않을 것이다.T&S팀에 연락해서 당신의 불만사항에 대해 조치를 취할 의향이 있는지 확인해 볼 것을 제안한다. --RexxS (대화) 14:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
상대가 선을 넘을 때 침묵하지 않는 것이 유일한 조치다.cygnis 휘장 14:59, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
RexxS, 지금까지 내가 본 T&S 상황 중 가장 현실적이다.T&S 팀이 한번 개입할 필요성을 느꼈기 때문에 모든 책임을 포기하는 것은 매우 "내 공을 가지고 집으로 돌아가는" 태도다.당신먹여 살리는 Bite: 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC) 16:17[응답]
친절한 말 고마워.내가 여기 자원 봉사자란 걸 상기시켜줘도 될까? 다른 사람들과 마찬가지로?나는 도덕적이든 계약적이든 어떤 특정한 조치를 취해야 할 의무도 없으며, T&S가 그들을 해결하는 데 이 공동체의 역할을 할 권리를 받아들이기 전에는 이런 종류의 문제에 대해 그렇게 하지 않을 것이다.T&S가 한 번 끼어들기를 고집한다면 다른 모든 시간에도 빌어먹을 잘 발을 들여놓을 수 있고 나는 다시 콘텐츠 제작에 들어갈 수 있다. --RexxS (토크) 16:51, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
모르는 사람들에게, RexxS와 나는 몇 년 동안 실제적인 친구였고, 열린 지식에 대해 매우 비슷한 관점을 가지고 있다.이 늙은 친구 같은 경우에는 자기 발로 총을 쏘고 그 부잣집과 함께 구경꾼 몇 명을 간신히 빼내고 있는 것이다.당나귀처럼 보이지 마라. 당나귀에게 불려갔을 때 손을 더럽히기 보다는 씻는다.치어리더 (토크) 16:54, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 이러한 캠페인의 효과에 대해 호의적인 의견은 없지만, 농담은 완전히 형편없는 것이다. 오늘날의 세계에서.경고하고 넘어가는 거야?하지만 그가 그런 일을 한 전력이 있는지, 그리고 그것이 결과에 영향을 미칠지 모르겠다.WBGconverse 15:06, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 동성애 혐오, 여성 혐오, 트랜스 혐오 발언은 절대 용인되거나 처벌받지 않고, 심지어 주장을 펴기 위해서라도 해서는 안 된다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:02, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    이건 처벌에 관한 게 아니야, 슬레이터를 찾아봐cygnis 휘장 15:05, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
이미 해결되었다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 17:53, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
키어리스트.나는 트랜스젠더 조카가 한 명 있는데, 한 번은 레즈비언과 약혼한 적이 있다.시투시가 옳다.어떤 추상적인 초정치적으로 옳은 선에서 '사망'의 증거를 찾아내고, 기소된 편집자가 실제로 하는 다른 모든 일에 대해 기세등등하는 남용 사례를 만드는 풍토는 마녀사냥이다.지아노는 그 직전에 이렇게 말했다.

이 모든 것이 도대체 하나님만이 알고 있는 백과사전을 쓰는 것과 무슨 관계가 있는가.사람들은 이 백과사전이 그들의 개인의 성, 정치, 신조를 홍보하는 편집자들의 수단이 아니라는 것을 기억해야 한다.위키피디아는 모든 과목에 대해 완전히 중립적이어야 한다.하원에서의 이혼은 오래전에 기한이 지났다.

우리는 태도를 두고 다투지 않고 기사를 쓰기 위해 여기에 있다.나는 사탄의 도움이 필요하면 사탄과 함께 인페르노 기사를 다시 쓰겠지만, 그가 나를 방문한다면 그를 내쫓을 것이다.이것은 수치스러운 WMF 프로젝트가 장려할만한 종류의 것이다.더 많은 비난, 더 적은 문서 작성 시간.니시다니 (토크) 15:09, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 좋아 그리고 편협함과 비열함에 대한 비판을 비껴가려고 하는 사람들을 위해 동성애 혐오, 여성 혐오, 그리고 트랜스 혐오 발언들은 심지어 논점을 만들기 위해서라도 결코 용인되거나 방해되도록 허용되어서는 안 된다.나는 솔직히 이것이 경고와 함께 허락된다면 역겹다...그리고 그것이 내가 여기서 보여지는 태도에 대해 말할 수 있는 가장 좋은 것이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:13, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
Slatterst 심지어 너까지도 완전히 잘못 읽고 있다.이것은 백과사전이다.사람들은 종교, 정치, 섹스 또는 그 무엇에 대해 당신과 의견이 일치하는지 보기 위해 협력하는 편집자들의 말을 흠집내거나 구문 분석하는 것이 아니라 기사를 쓰고 중립을 보장하며 질을 위해 여기에 있어야 한다.편집자들이 가져야 할 올바른 태도에 대해 끝없이 잔소리를 하는 사회적 포럼은 아니다.그것을 위한 다른 포럼은 백만 개가 있다.니시다니 (토크) 15:21, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그들은 또한 편협함, 왕따, 그리고 혐오스러운 분위기 밖에서 그렇게 할 수 있어야 한다.이제 아무도 이것을 가지고 있지 않다고 주장하지 않는 것은 동성애 혐오, 여성 혐오, 트랜스 공포증이 아니라 오히려 "두껍게 살이 찌거나" "글쎄 나는 아무것도 하지 않을 거야, 나는 원하지 않으니까" 그들이 그것을 받아들이고 그것을 합리적인 의사소통 방법으로 받아들이고 있고 그것은 꽤 충격적이다.어느 누구도 백과사전에서조차 고의적으로 모욕당하는 것을 직면해서는 안 된다.그리고 솔직히 이것은 의도적인 도발로 보인다.어떤 경고도 충분하지 않다.만약 이것이 "우리는 BOWE BE BOWD, ..."라는 메시지를 보내는 것이라면, 그것은 사라지지 않고 블록이 정돈되어 있다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:30, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그것이 동성애 혐오 등 그 어떤 것도 아니라고 생각하고 위에서 그렇게 말했다.풍자였다.나는 또한 당신이 전체 코멘트를 읽지 않은 것이 의심스럽다: 비록 그러한 것에 대해 잘 발달된 더듬이를 가진 사람들은 그들 자신이 모욕당했다고 생각할지는 모르지만, 어떤 사람도 고의적으로 모욕당하지 않았다.내가 혐오하는 저 끔찍한 트럼프 남자에게 호평을 하는 사람을 다음에 보면 정말 여기서 보고해야겠다. - 시투시 (대화) 15:41, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
@시토시: 코미디언들에게 좋은 팁은 쓰러지기보다는 위로 펀치를 날리는 것이다.만약 소외된 집단이 농담의 핵심이라면, 그 농담을 하는 사람은 그들의 소외에 기여하고 있다.리처드 네벨 (대화) 15:46, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
미안하다는 말이 무슨 뜻인지 모르겠어.펀치업?펀치 다운?어쨌든 지금 24시간 정도 지났어. - 시투시(대화) 15시 52분, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
농담이었어, 오, 그럼 괜찮아, 농담은 결코 여성 혐오자나 트랜스 공포증이 될 수 없어.그들이 (아내를 자랑스럽게 여기는 것에 대한 이전 논평에서처럼) 동성애자 자존심을 "사납게" 하고 있다는 것은 맥락에서 분명히 알 수 있다.그렇다, 이것은 게이들을 위한 것이었다. 그것은 유머였을지도 모른다. 11/9에 얼마나 많은 IRA 기금 모금자들이 살해되었는지에 대한 농담이나 분홍색 삼각형에 대한 농담도 그렇다.그것은 농담일 수 있고 여전히 상처를 입히는 것을 목표로 할 수 있다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:59, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
유머의 기능은 긴장을 완화시키는 것이다.세상의 모든 사람들은, 그들의 다중인격의 어떤 부분에서는, 소수에 속한다.모든 소수 민족 또는 사회적 소수 민족은 익살스럽게 그들 자신의 문화나 집단 정체성/문화에 대한 익살스러운 면들을 흥분시키면서 대화를 만든다.서구적인 관점에서 볼 때, 가장 악랄하게 박해를 받은 역사적 소수인 유대인들이 그들 자신에 대해 그렇게 우스꽝스러운 농담의 대단히 풍부한 유산을 가지고 있는 것은 우연이 아니다.아일랜드인들의 최악의 캐리커처들은 그들 자신에 대한 자신의 말에 비하면 아무것도 아니다('왜 아일랜드인들은 버섯과 같은가?그들은 어둠 속에서 자라나 헛소리에 젖으면 번창한다.'어린 시절 우리 둘 중 한 명에게서 그런 말을 들었다.이것은 또한 여기서 언급된 공동체에서도 사실이다.좋은 형태에 대한 사회적 보닛을 가진 얼굴없는 기술 관료들은 우리의 죽음이 될 것이다.우리 자신에 대해서조차 웃는 능력은 건강한 사회의 기름이며, 그것을 단속하는 현대적 경향은, 그 가치를 완벽하게 완곡하게 말할 가치가 없는, 그러나 관용의 죽음을, 심각하게 주문한다.그 폭력은 우리의 '문명화된 제1세계 국경'을 넘어 다른 곳에서도 만연하고 대부분 무시되고 있다.니시다니(토크) 16:21, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
정말? 인종차별적인 농담을 하는 것이 인종차별을 확산시킨다고 (예를 들어)?사람들이 '재크'로 만들어도 상관 없고(그들은 스스로를 조롱하고 있다), 밖에 있는 사람들이 다른 사람들을 희생시키면서 농담을 해도 상관없다.게이들은 게이 농담을 하고, 흑인들은...농담이야, 흰 후드 쓰고 N... 농담해도 괜찮다는 뜻이야?소수자를 희생시키는 유머가 (그리고 표현의) 억압의 한 형태(그것이 바로 이런 유머의 목적이며, 목표물을 그들의 위치를 보여주고, 거기에 그들을 유지하는 것)라는 것을 정말 알 수 없는가?WMF가 이런 이슈에 대해 행동해야 하는 것은 당연하다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 16:29, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
오, 크리스마스.길게 생각하고, 천천히 곰곰이 생각해 보아라, 말대꾸하지 마라.나는 기사 작성에 의해 조직적인 인종차별주의와 싸우며 위키 일생의 대부분을 보냈다.지아노의 말은 인종차별주의자가 아니었다.풀 스톱.니시다니 (토크) 16:36, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 당신은 그들이 인종차별주의자가 되는 것이 문제가 아니라 단지 하나의 예였다는 것을 충분히 알고 있다.그는 동성애자 자존심과 그것이 얼마나 어리석은지에 대해 코웃음을 치고 있었다(최소한 두 개의 게시물의 요지였다.그것은 사람들과 함께 웃는 것이 아니라 그들을 비웃는 것이다.이것은 살아있는 기억 속에서 박해와 불법의 역사적 분위기에 맞서, 자기 가치에 대한 사람들의 욕구를 놀리고 있었다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 16:49, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

공동체의 행동 부족과 이곳의 반응("별일 아냐, 괜찮아, 기사를 더 쓰고 진주 잡는 걸 멈추는 거야")이 바로 신뢰와 안전팀이 필요한 이유와 엔위키 공동체가 스스로를 감시할 수 있다는 믿음이 없는 이유인 것이다.이것은 다른 편집자들의 사기를 크게 해치고 의도적으로 사람을 배제하는 말(기둥을 침범하는 것이지만, 누가 신경써도 그는 인기가 있다)을 한 말인 심각하게 좆같은 말이다.'현재의 드라마 때문에 어쩔 수 없다'는 식의 말은 '생각과 기도'의 냄새가 나지만, 이 촬영이 끝난 직후 총기 폭력에 대해 이야기하기에는 너무 이르다'는 식의 변곡이다.언제나 어떤 위기가 닥칠 것이다.연기 실패는 퇴위, 비겁하다.--조름 (토크) 15:39, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

네 주장을 뒷받침할 증거는 없나, 조름?예를 들어, 많은 편집자들의 사기가 손상되었다면? - 시투시 (토크) 15:42, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
^Q.E.D.--조름 (대화) 15:44, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
조름, 넌 여기서 가장 "다양하게 미개한" 사람들 중 한 명이야. 계속 무시당하고, 오염되지 않는 "멋진 이야기"를 하고 있어.당신은 나만큼 더 이상 이야기할 여지가 없다. - 시투시 (대화) 15:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
테이블 위의 행동 대신 나에 대해 이렇게 만들려고 하는 건 정말 멋진 이야기야. --조름 (토크) 15:53, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 "mymategateotbannedgate"에서 말했듯이, 이런 종류의 무시적인 태도는 우리가 나쁜 이미지를 가지고 있는 이유다.그냥 농담이야, 젠장.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 16:02, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 이것에 대해 핑계를 대는 것에 어리둥절했다. 첫째, 나는 행정관이 된 적이 없다. 둘째, 그 부분에 대한 나의 유일한 기여는 농담이나 프라이드를 언급하기 4일 전이었다. "관리자가 할 수 있다고 생각하지만, 이 부분에 대한 나의 기여는 "Commons에 파일 이름을 바꾸는 절차는 없다.존보드(토크) 16:51, 2019년 5월 19일(UTC)."존보드 (대화) 15:21, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 지아노와 파이의 편을 들어줘야 한다고? 8-(음, 요즘엔 좀 자주 우는 늑대가 있을지도 모르지만, 그런 말이라면 기꺼이 그 늑대들에게 지아노를 던져주겠다.앤디 딩글리 (대화) 15:14, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 지아노가 모든 편집자들을 존중하여 대우하는 것을 고려해야 하며 나의 고통에 대해 잘 알고 있다고 10년이 훨씬 넘게 기록되어 있다.이것은 오래 전에 나갔던 일종의 '조크'인데, 이곳에는 아무 데도 없다.맥켄센 (대화) 2019년 6월 29일 16:26 (UTC)[응답]
  • 지아노는 발언을 철회해야 한다, 아니면 T&S에 이를 연기해야 하는 상황인 것 같다--WaltCip (대화) 16:27, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 메타에 대한 나의 이전 논평에 따르면, 나는 페이가 내가 어떻게, 왜 이 일에 연루되었다고 생각하는지 알 수 없다.나의 유일한 연결고리는 문제의 논평이 3개월 전에 내가 코멘트한 (어떤 상황에서든 봇들이 그것을 복사하려 하지 않도록 하기 위해 의도적으로 비-Commons-규격 GFDL 라이선스를 사용하는 방법에 대한 건조한 기술적 조언과 함께) 토크를 했다는 것이다.성별 또는 성별과 관련됨.내가 어떤 자격으로 논평한 모든 페이지를 감시하는 것은 나나 다른 사람의 일이 아니다.무지개빛 16:37, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 이상적인 위키백과에서는, 우리는 여기에 있지 않을 것이다.이상적인 위키피디아에서, 파이는 "지아노, 네가 말한 것은 정말 상처를 주고 많은 사람들이 편안하고 안전하다고 느끼지 못하는 분위기에 기여한다"와 같은 말을 하고, 지아노는 "그렇게 나쁘다고 생각하지는 않았지만, 그것으로 누군가를 다치게 할 생각은 없었으니 없애버리겠다"와 같은 말을 하고 나서 모든 사람들이 앞으로 나아간다.ANI도 없고, 제재도 없고, WMF도 없어. 다시 말하지만, 이상적이다.아마도 이 둘 사이에는 내가 모르는 어떤 역사가 있을지도 모르는데, 어떤 것이 페이가 그런 메시지를 남기는 것을 불안하게 느끼게 하거나, 지아노가 페이의 동기를 의심하게 만들었는지도 모른다.이런 ANI 실들을 보면 우울할 뿐인데, 이런 실수는 일을 해결하기는커녕 관계를 더 악화시키는 경우가 너무나 많다.우리가 정말로 예의에 신경을 쓴다면, WMF와의 백 번의 대화는 종종 깨진 상호작용 방식을 해결하지 못할 것이다. 사람들이 누군가와 대화를 하지 않고 게시판에 가서 다른 누군가에게 상처를 주는 말을 했다는 것을 알게 되었을 때, 또는 사람들이 그들의 발뒤꿈치를 파고드는 것이다.그 두 가지 모두 지역사회에서 시민토론을 육성하기 위한 역기능적인 전략이다.다시 한 번 말하지만, 어떤 뒷이야기가 복잡한지 잘 모르겠다. -- 이것은 단지 최근의 사례일 뿐인데, 현재 진행되고 있는 신뢰와 안전 논의에 비추어 볼 때, 우리가 우리 스스로를 고칠 수 있는 힘을 가지고 있다는 것을 보여주는 것으로 보인다.\\ 16:57, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나와 여기 언급된 다른 사람들은 메타 토론에서 핑핑을 받았고 논평에 초대받았다고?메타 토론에서 핑핑을 했나?그건 정말 말도 안 돼.만약 관리자(및 존보드와 같은 비관리자)가 거기서 어떤 ping을 발견하기 위해 메타를 따라갈 것으로 기대된다면 - 내 생각에, 5년마다 한번씩 - ANI에 끌려가서 동성애, 여성혐오, 트랜스포비아에 연루되었다는 암묵적으로 비난받는 고통에 대해 - "여자"라는 비난은 말할 것도 없고, I gi.난 그냥 포기해한편, 3개월 전에 올렸던 실타래에서 지아노가 한 말(아이데스센트와 마찬가지로 건조한 기술적 조언 한 마디로)에 대해서는 언급하지 않겠다.나는 그것에 대해 논평하기를 거절한다.
그건 그렇고, 그냥 메타에 가서 구경했는데, 내가 핑계를 대고 있다는 것도 못 찾겠어.정말 그랬나, ?확인하는 중...아니, 그게 설명이 되네. 넌 실제로 우리 중 누구도 호출하지 않았어.여기서와 같이 사용자 목록이 있는 템플릿을 추가하는 것은 새 줄을 시작하고 새로 서명할 때만 효과가 있다.WP 참조:PING. "아직 코멘트를 하지 않은" 우리들에 대한 당신의 분노는 분명히 몇 가지 단계에서 잘못 배치된 것 같다.걱정 마, 핑 규칙은 꽤 복잡하고 종종 사람들을 짓밟아.당신의 ping 시도 편집 요약이 무엇을 의미하는지 물어봐도 될까? "desysop 요청 대신 몇 개의 의미 있는 ping으로 추가"?다음엔 디시솝 요청이 온다는 말씀이세요?좋을 대로 하시오.나는 이미 WP에서 그 대열에 합류하고 싶은 유혹을 받고 있었다.BN. Bishonentalk 17:30, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[답답하다]
나는 메타에 대한 편집 코멘트를 기억하지 못했다. 그것은 극적이었다.
이 실마리는 지아노의 트랜스 공포증 발언에 관한 것으로, 수백 명 중 한 명의 sysop이 WMF PR 기계처럼 트랜스 공포증 남용을 심각하게 받아들일 것인가에 관한 것이다.우리 모두 아마 지금 같은 결론을 도출할 수 있을 테니, 한 걸음 앞으로 나아가는 겁니다. --Fæ (대화) 21:01, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
메타에 대한 잘못된 형태의 ping에 대응하지 못한 것에 대한 나와 다른 "동료 위키백과 청년들"[sic]에 대한 당신의 공격은 너무 부수적이어서 문제가 되지 않는다고 생각하고, 디시솝 요청에 대한 당신의 위협은 단지 "지나치게 극적"이었다고 생각한다."이 실물은 내가 아니라 그들에 관한 것이다"는 그들의 보고서가 그들의 행동에 대한 논평으로 이어질 때 새로운 편집자들의 일반적인 반응이지만, 대부분의 경험 많은 편집자들은 그러한 논평이 ANI의 정상적인 특징이라는 것을 안다.우린 접촉이 거의 없었소, F know. 하지만 내가 알기로는 항상 즐거웠소. 그리고 나나 내 동료들이 여기서 너의 태도를 받아들일 만하다고는 생각하지 않소.잘먹었습니다.비쇼넨 토크 21:55, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[답답하다]
  • "트랜스 여성들이 정신질환을 앓고 있는 위험한 남성들이 끌려다니고 있다"는 말이 널리 퍼진 트랜스 여성들에 대한 차별과 살인에 책임이 있는 정확한 종류의 수사로 언급되는 등 그 자체가 창백한 수준을 넘어서는 것이었다.이것이 바로 LGBT 위키피디아 사람들이 수년간의 자존심 캠페인에도 불구하고 여전히 불안하다고 느끼는 정확한 이유다.농담으로 쓰여진다고 해서 완전히 무지하고 조롱하고 상처받은 것에 대한 결과로부터 면역이 주어지는 것은 아니다.우리는 이미 극단적인 수준의 위키피디아 부족에 직면해 있어 우리의 신뢰성에 영향을 미치는 체계적 편견을 초래하고 있으며, WMF 연구는 우리가 남성 중심의 독성 대기를 가지고 있다는 것을 보여주었다. (메타: 참조)연구:위키피디아에서 여성인 동안 소통하는 것) 이런 종류의 "조크"가 존재하도록 허용하는 것은 우리 프로젝트에 심각한 비용이다.사용자는 최소한 경고하고 다시는 그러한 논평이 발생하지 않도록 해야 한다.다른 데 가서 불평해 봐.츠미키 17:49, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 그 논평은 제재할 수 있지만, 누군가가 불쾌한 게시물을 다른 것으로 식별하지 않는 한, 더 심각한 결과보다는 경고의 영역에 해당한다고 말하고 싶다.편집자는 그것을 농담(등)으로 위장하기보다는 실제로 농담으로 보았을지도 모른다, 나는 말할 수 없다.그러나 그것은 그것을 허용 가능한 표준으로 옮기기에는 충분하지 않다.나는 "프램 이후 더 많은 중징계를 가해야 한다"고 말하는 모든 사람들에게 주목할 것이다. 우리가 지역사회에 그러한 것이 불공평하다고 통지하지 않는 한 그렇게 하는 것은 그것이 호소할 수 있을지라도 말이다.코백베어 (토크) 17:57, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
음, 이 [10]을 통해 [11]에 이르는 일련의 [9]의 일부분인데, 그 시리즈를 농담으로 보긴 어렵지만, 동성애자 자긍심을 조장하는 것에 대한 판단은 지나치지 않았다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 18:05, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 우리는 언론의 자유를 위해 사용자 자신의 토크 페이지에서 넓은 관용도를 제공한다.너희 중 누구도 그 페이지를 볼 필요가 없어.만약 뭔가 끔찍하게 불쾌한 것이 그곳에 있다면, 그곳에 가지 마라.또한, 나는 사용자에게 공격적인 발언을 하도록 요청했다.이 실을 닫으려고 했는데 동료 맥켄센이 다시 열어달라고 해서 이렇게 된 겁니다.예의 바름 블록은 더 비굴함을 낳는다.제발 그런 실수는 하지 말아줘.너희들이 할 일을 다 하도록 내버려 둘 거야.제호Talk 18:43, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    그런 논리로 바늘귀로 낙타를 밀어넣으려는 것 같아. --조름 (토크) 18:47, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    이 토론이 생산적인 곳은 어디에도 가지 않을 것이라는 제호크만의 믿음에는 공감하지만, 사용자들이 자신의 토크 페이지에서 그런 식으로 자유롭게 행동할 수 있다는 정서는 동의할 수 없다.언젠가 그가 내게 한 말을 바꿔 말하면, 오래 전 다른 맥락에서, 백과사전이 그 사람의 토크 페이지에 조잡하고, 불쾌하고, 어쩌면 트랜스 공포증이 있을 수도 있는 농담을 만드는 데 어떻게 도움이 될까?나는 그것을 돌려서 백과사전이 얼마나 상처를 주는지 안다고 대답할 수 있다: 소외된 편집자들에게 그들은 프로젝트의 특정 구석에 있는 달갑지 않은 2등 시민이라는 메시지를 보내면서 말이다.맥켄센(토크) 18:48, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    바로 이거야, 그리고 고마워.--조름 (토크) 18:50, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    조르므 1세는 지아노에게 그 말을 삭제해 달라고 부탁했다.만약 그가 그렇게 한다면, 그것은 가장 좋은 결과일 것이고 우리는 바라건대 이것을 끝내고 누군가에게 무언가를 가르치는 것이 성공적이었다고 생각할 수 있을 것이다.위키백과에서 어떤 주제들은 절대 농담이 되어서는 안 된다.지아노에게 생각할 시간을 좀 줘.제호만 18:52, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
위키백과에서 어떤 주제들은 절대 농담이 되어서는 안 된다.- 말도 안 돼.어떤 에도 시간과 유머의 장소가 있다(이 실에서 논의되고 있는 표본이 많은 장점을 가지고 있다고는 생각하지 않는다).EENG 21:23, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
공정한 것 같군, 그들이 그것을 제거하고 다시는 하지 않는 한.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 18:57, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그래, 좋은 결과가 될 거야.그들이 그렇게 하기를 바랍시다.아마쿠루 (대화) 2019년 6월 29일 19:00 (UTC)[응답]
그들에게 대응할 시간을 주기 위해 24시간 동안 열어두는 게 좋을 것 같아.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 19:02, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 조크먼. 방금 캐서린에게 "온라인 괴롭힘과 관련된 문제를 해결하지 못했다면 그건 우리가 서툴거나 내키지 않아서가 아니라, 문제가 어렵고 아직 아무도 해결하지 못했기 때문"이라고 말하지 않았는가?어떻게 "우리를 믿어, 우리가 그것을 처리할 수 있어"라고 말하는 것이 "음, 내가 그에게 동성애 혐오자가 되지 말라고 했니?"와 맞닿아 있다.특히 지아노의 이력을 감안할 때 정말 그것이 좋은 해결책이라고 생각하는가?너희들이 이 일을 처리할 수 있다는 걸 증명하는 거야? WMF가 개입할 필요가 없다는 거야?이것은 미숙함과 꺼림칙함 둘 다로 보인다.--조름 (토크) 19:03, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    조름, 이 문제가 ArbCom으로 넘어가면 제재를 받을 위험이 있어, 그럴 가능성이 커 보인다.제발 조용히 하고 머리 사냥은 그만해.우리는 지아노가 내용을 삭제하는 가장 간단한 해결책을 원한다.만약 그가 그렇게 하기로 동의한다면, 우리는 다시는 그런 일이 일어나지 않을 것이라는 확신을 갖게 될 것이다.제호Talk 19:05, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    협박하는 거야?"닥치지 않으면 아르브컴에 가서 행동 부족에 대해 화가 나서 제재를 받게 되겠지?"--조름 (대화)19:10, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 꽤 많은 이용자들이 이것에 대해 불행을 표현했다. 우리는 "당신과 당신이 탔던 돼지를 망쳐"라고 외칠 필요가 없다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 19:15, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 이 [12]는 응답이다. 그들은 그것을 이해하지 못한다.그것은 또한 그것이 농담이 아니라, 성정치에 대해 논점을 만들고 있다는 것을 분명히 한다.그건 그들이 같은 주장을 다시 할 것이라는 것을 강하게 말해준다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 20:04, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 이 실에 있는 로트 포스팅을 차단하고 금지하고, <디티>가 그것을 정리하도록 하라.이것은 모든 면에서 유치한 것이고, 나는 지아노의 (솔직히 경솔한) 발언을 용납하지 않지만, 특히 우리가 그들을 강제할 수 없기 때문에 비도덕성과 괴롭힘을 둘러싼 정책들이 이미 WMF에 의해 폐지되고 있는 상황에서, 이와 같은 실수와 논평은 도움이 되지 않는다.우리는 그들을 위해 그들의 요점을 증명하고 있다.조금 푸른 보리브^_^vBori! 18:51, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
    희망을 버리지 말자.제호만 18:53, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
지역사회가 행동하지 못한 한 사례에서 한 명의 행정관을 차단한 것은 아니었다.그래 그런 점에서 이것과 매우 비슷하다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 18:56, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 일반적으로, 그리고 특별히 누구에게도, 이것은 나의 좌절이다.짧은 대답은 '나는 그 코멘트를 알지 못했다'거나, 사람들이 하는 모든 이유로 '나는 그것을 무시했다'일 것이다.핑핑을 당한 사람들은 무참히 남을 권리가 있지만, 다른 사람들이 사회적 경계를 시험하는 것을 지켜보는 경험 많은 사용자들이 있고, 지금은 침묵하거나 침묵하지 않는 사람들에 대한 날카로운 비판의 시간이 아니다. cygnis 휘장 18:19, 2019년 6월 29일(UTC) 이 실에서 나의 코멘트가 삭제된 것은 이번이 두 번째, 첫 번째다.이것을 괜찮다고 생각하는 사람을 처벌하는 것이 아니라고 말하는 것. cygnis 휘장 18:54, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 역사에 대한 여러 주장, 어떤 역사인지, 한번 보자.내가 본 것은 이번 주에 동성애자 자존심에 대한 일련의 발언이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화)19:05, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

물론 비슷한 시기에 프람 사건에서 분별 있는 말이 많았던 한 편집자가 방임과 고독, 무관심한 취급을 받고 비쇼넨에게 페이지 잠금을 요구했고, 감시자 명단에 그것을 가지고 있는 866명의 위키백과 중 지아노만이 깊은 공감을 표시하기 위해 감동했다는 것은 아무 것도 중요하지 않다.hy. 프람의 금지에 상응하는 기간 동안 내용을 편집하지 않기로 결정했기 때문에 (F와의 연대를 위해서가 아니라) 그 제안을 존중할 수 없다는 것을 깨닫고 그들이 그 자리를 취소하기 위해서만 돌아온다면 도움을 주겠다고 편지를 썼기 때문에 그런 것은 아니었다.WMF의 캥거루 법원 침해에 대한 분노로).만약 당신이 하나의 정체성 문제에 의해 사전에 속박당한다면, 당신은 그 정체성의 창백한 바깥에서 당신이 상호작용하는 거의 모든 사람들에게서 그것에 대해 불쾌한 것을 발견할 것이다.이 인지적 고정의 결함은 오래된 '조크'로 요약된다.

:'5개국 5명. 아프리카에 코끼리 사냥을 갔고, 그들은 각각 그가 돌아오자마자 편지를 썼다.영국인은 그의 책을 '코끼리, 그의 삶과 습관'이라고 불렀고, 프랑스인 '에뛰드 수르 엘레판트'는 아모르어, 미국인은 '더 크고 더 나은 코끼리를 선호함' 독일인은 '코끼리의 형이상학과 세계지질' 그리고 폴, '코끼리 그리고 폴란드인 질문'이라고 불렀다.제프리 울프, 블랙 선: 뉴욕 랜덤 하우스, 1976년 페이지 124

만약 당신이 하나의 민족, 즉 국가와 강하게 동일시한다면, 당신은 그것에 비추어 모든 것을 읽고, 그리고 그 사람의 프로필이 단지 그 말이나 말일 뿐이 될 누군가의 말에서 적개심의 증거처럼 보이는 것을 발견하게 될 것이다, 모든 사람들에게 알려지지 않은 99.999%의 사람의 복잡성이 무엇이든 말이다.그들은 우리를 위해 또는 우리를 위해 흥분하는가?만약 당신의 성별만 있다면, 모든 것은 성차별적인 배역을 맡는다; 만약 색깔이 있다면, 당신은 당신 자신에 대한 편견을 암시하는 어떤 것을 경계한다.제레미 코빈이 반(反)세미트라는 소문이 나돈다?그의 페이지의 20%가 그 증거물을 찾기 위해 심한 트롤링을 하고 있다고 보고했어한 공동체 전체가 영국 정치의 한 측면을 오로지 그 의심의 관점에서, 어떻게 그들을 위협할 수 있는가에 대해 생각하는 데 끌려갔다.나로서는 이 모든 것이 정치적이고 타블로이드에 기반한 편집증, 탄도 과장이며, 라운드에서 삶을 보지 못한 완전한 실패의 상징이며, 정치적으로 행동하기보다는 의혹이나 최악의 추론이라는 허점에 의존하여 번창하는 사회적 불만 문화(그 중 상당 부분 합법적)이며, 아마도 디지털 쿠의 정도를 나타내는 지표일 것이다.그것은 세대들이 실제 세계의 라운드에서 실제 사람들과 심층적으로 접촉하는 것을 통해 살지 않고, 마치 그들이 영원한 위협이나 공격을 받는 것처럼 정신없이 강렬한 가상의 소리들을 먹도록 한다.
그것이 바로 WMF 덕분에 여기까지 오는 것이다.니시다니 (토크)19:53, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 언짢은 말은 사라졌고, 그것이 다시 나타나지 않으면 이 실타래는 끝났다고 생각한다.제호만 20:17, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 네가 그것을 제거해야 했고, 그것과는 거리가 멀었다는 것을 인정할 수 없다.나는 그것이 다시 나타나는지 보기 위해 그것을 내일까지 주라고 말한다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 20:19, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 비쇼넨으로부터 배운 중요한 위키피디아와 삶의 팁: 절대 사과를 요구하지 않는다.나는 그가 "어느 쪽"을 물었기 때문에 그 말을 삭제했고, 나는 그에게 어떤 것을 보여줘야 했다.그는 지금까지 내가 제거에 동의하지 않을 경우 복원하기 위한 자유 선택권을 주었음에도 불구하고 그것을 보류해 왔다.우리는 이 실을 닫기 전에 24시간 동안 놓아둔다.제호Talk 20:24, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
"ANI에 있는 사람"이라고 말할 수도 있었을 텐데, 내가 말했듯이 이것은 그가 이것을 심각하게 받아들이지 않는다는 것을 보여준다.그렇게 되면 그는 그것을 삭제하기 위한 선택을 하게 되고, 그를 위해 그것을 갖지 못하게 되었을 것이다.내가 말했듯이, 이것은 그가 그것을 이해하지 못한다는 것을 증명한다.하지만 나는 지금 무슨 일이 일어나는지 기다릴 것이다. 하지만 나는 우리가 다시 여기에 올 것이라고 의심한다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 20:29, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
문제는 "어떻게 하면 좋을까?"가 될 것이기 때문에, 스레드가 교착상태에 빠진 다음 ArbCom으로 갈 것으로 의심된다.항상 그게 문제야생산성이 높은 기고자들을 ArbCom에 데려가지 않고서는 제재할 수 없다. 그렇지 않으면 폭풍우가 일어날 것이다.그것은 어떻게 해야 하는지가 아니라 어떻게 해야 하는지에 대한 진술이다.제호만 20:31, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
허허, 그럼 동성애 혐오나 여성 혐오적 농담으로 다른 사람의 토크 페이지를 검열하겠다는 건가?
지아노가 당신에게 보낸 답장은 계속 공격적으로 변하라는 것이었다.당신의 모든 행동은 노골적인 트랜스 공포증 남용을 숨기고 4찬처럼 위키피디아를 사용하고자 하는 사람을 보호하는 것이다. --F ( (토크) 20:38, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
그럼 T&S에 가져가세요.그들은 당신의 요구를 기꺼이 들어줄 것이다.조금 푸른 보리브^_^vBori! 20:47, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
오 ffs. "T&S에 가져가라"? 왜? 그래서 그들은 돌아와서 이렇게 말할 수 있다. "보아라, 넌 달리기를 믿을 수 없다."wiki yourself".이런 논평들은 짐보가 말하는 "헌법적 위기"를 심각하게 받아들이기 훨씬 더 어렵게 만들 것이다.WMF에게 물러서라고 말하는 과 이 문제들을 우리 스스로 처리하라는 것의 결합이 필요하다.다른 것 없이 우리는 그것을 가질 수 없을 것이다.미스터 rndude (대화) 20:57, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
Fae가 Arbcom 건을 제출하면 또 뭘 기대하겠어?그들은 성명서에 대해 문제를 제기했고, 성명은 86'd였다. 그리고 그들은 여전히 불평하고 있다. 왜냐하면 지아노가 미아 컬파를 발표하지 않았기 때문이다.조금 푸른 보리 v^_^v 21:01, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

네, T&S에 이것을 보고하고 그들이 개입할 것인지 확인하는 것이 가장 좋을 것 같아.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 20:54, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

그렇다, 그들은 이것을 다룰 만큼 충분히 무능하다.그 자체가 선의를 가지지 않는 암시적인 읽을거리인 '빛나는 트랜스 공포증 남용'을 연상시키는 것은 없다.이 발언은 저자가 회사 자금 오용의 가능성을 진단하면서, 수혜자가 되기 위해 자신들이 아닌 것처럼 가장할 수 있는 최종 사용자에 의한 남용 가능성을 진단하는 것에 대해 비판적이었다.우리 나머지 사람들과 마찬가지로 지아노도 보수를 받지 못하고, 위키피디아가 돈을 써서 사람들을 편집하게 하는 방식(원리상의 모순)을 예리하게 보는 것은 당연하다.그가 언급한 학대는 고질적인 문제인데, 매일 보도되고 있다.저자가 어떻게 그런 사기를 조직할 수 있는지 사적인 예를 들어 설명함으로써 보여준 트랜스젠더 프로젝트와 관련이 있다는 사실은 불 보듯 뻔하다.만약 그가 위키피디아가 기사 작성을 위해 특정 동일주의 단체에 자금을 지원해서는 안 된다는 원칙을 견지한다면, 어떤 지역사회가 수혜자가 될 수 있는가에 대한 이의는 성립될 것이다.이것이 본문의 명백한 의도다.니시다니 (토크) 20:57, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

패, 몇 시간 전, 그리고 지금 다시 그 댓글을 봤는데, 나 역시 형편없고, 매우 가난하고, 경고할 만한 가치가 있는 것을 발견했어.오늘은 토요일이고 집안 청소도 하고 식료품도 사야 해서 일찍 실을 읽는 것 외에는 아무것도 하지 않았다.그리고 지금 내가 이것을 다시 볼 때, 나는 네가 이것을 또 다른 똥냄비를 휘젓는 기회로 보는 것이 너무 슬프다: 나는 이 모든 것이 행해지고 있다는 믿음을 가지고 있지 않다. 그리고 아마도 모든 ping*한 관리들과 편집자들이 복잡하고 그 모든 것을-- 그리고 나는 당신이 그들을 모두 비난하려고 했던 것을 처음 알아차리지 못한 것이 더 슬프다.그의 "여자들" 같은 놈들내 말은 비쇼넨이 여성 설득자란 걸 잘 알 거라고 생각하는데, 네가 그녀를 비난했잖아. 그래서 "여자들"은 남자 문화자랑스러운 남자애들 같은 걸 의미하겠지.어느 쪽이든, 나는 지아노의 무미건조한 농담을 옹호하지는 않을 것이다. 지금 이 순간에는 막을 수 없을 것 같지만, 나는 네가 더 이상 비방하지 않았으면 한다. 왜냐하면 그것이 바로 내가 생각하는 것이기 때문이다.Drmies (토크) 22:07, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 나는 그 의견에 전혀 동의하지 않지만 나는 Giano에게 보내는 간단한 메시지가 충분할 것이고 그것이 이 무의미한 모든 드라마들을 저장했을 것이라고 생각한다. 그들의 토크 페이지를 풀고 넘어가라. –Davey2010Talk 22:09, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

거기서 해결된 것 같다.고마워요.

이러한 미래 ANI를 방지하거나 신속하게 해결하려면 일부 기록이 도움이 될 수 있다: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/F190#F.C3.A6_banked

보우 제젠(토크) 23:07, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
  • 이 일이 넘어가기 전에, 기록을 바로 잡기 위해 이나 누군가가 초기의 불평을 조정하여 내가 관리자라는 완전히 부정확한 진술을 정정할 수 있다.Fæ, 이렇게 하도록 요청받을 필요는 없다. 또한 Ping의 잘못된 비트, Meta에서도 마찬가지다.존보드 (대화) 01:45, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    존, 우리는 많은 사건들을 함께 연구해왔는데, 이 사건들 중 어느 것도 LGBT 사람들을 공격하거나 놀리기 위해 이 사건을 악용하고 있는 위키피디아를 은폐하거나 보호하지는 못할 것이다.당신이 최고의 콘텐츠 제작자로 잘 알려진 이곳 위키피디아에서 왜 당신은 트랜스 공포증이나 농담으로 우리가 사랑하는 프로젝트의 이런 역겨운 오용을 비난하기보다 사소한 실수에 더 관심이 있는가?너는 이미 기록을 바로 세웠고, 구식 핑계로 장난을 쳐도 소용없다.
여기 기회가 있어, 지난 몇 시간 안에 있었던 것처럼, 지아노와 계속 일하면서, 이런 일이 전혀 일어나지 않은 것처럼 행동할 것인가, 아니면 개인적으로, 위키피디아의 모든 오용을 동성애 혐오, 트랜스 혐오, 여성 혐오적 공격이나 "조크"에 대해 비난할 것인가?영국 교회조차도 인터넷 상의 기본적인 인간의 예의범절을 더 잘 이해하고 있다. 우리 모두는 불평하는 사람들이 LGBT 사람들을 조롱하기 전에 제재를 받는 것이 정상이라는 것을 알고 있다. (토크) 06:49, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
그래서 "아니, 나는 그것을 고치지 않을 거야"라고 들리는군!다른 사람들이 당신에 대해 사용하는 주소의 형태에 대해 매우 민감한 사람에게 당신은 다른 사람들에 대한 자신의 언급에 있어서 눈에 띄게 정확성에 대해 허술하다.너는 나를 거짓된 선견지명으로 끌어들였다. 그리고 나는 더 이상 논평하지 않을 것이다.존보드 (대화) 15:24, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 너 아직도 여기서 펑크 난 드럼을 쾅쾅 치고 있니?마지막으로, 아무도 성소수자들을 폄하하지 않았다.나는 돈이 사기를 조장하기 때문에 위키백과 관련 대회에 제공되어서는 안 된다는 점을 지적했고, 어떻게 해서든 예를 들었다.열심히 모금된 자금은 어떤 주제에 관한 경쟁에서 상금으로 낭비되어서는 안 된다.나는 또한 어떤 종류의 성적인 것과 관련된 사진 대회가 전시자 등으로부터도 관심을 끌고 남용될 것이라고 의심한다.그게 네가 보고 싶은 거야?어쨌든, 만약 그러한 보완이 존재해야 한다면, 상은 여기 있는 다른 열심히 일하는 편집자에게 있는 것과 마찬가지로 메인 페이지에서의 영광의 순간이어야 한다.나 자신의 견해는 돈이 어떤 집단, 인종, 신조를 장려하거나 단념시키는 데 사용되어서는 안 된다는 것이다.백과사전은 모든 법적 주제에 대해 완전히 중립적이어야 하며 편집자가 불법적인 그룹에 속한다고 생각될 때만 견해를 표현해야 한다.지아노 (토크) 12시 50분, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 당신의 트랜스 공포증이 있는 농담이 공개 편집회에 있었다면, 당신은 앞으로 있을 모든 WMF 행사에서 영구히 금지될 것이다.당신의 방어적인 자기 정의는 나를 괴롭히고, 위키피디아가 모든 자원봉사자들에게 적대적이지 않은 환경을 유지하도록 신경쓰는 모든 위키피디아 사람들을 불쾌하게 해야 한다.공식적인 경고조차 없었다는 것은 오늘날 위키피디아가 얼마나 추잡한 청소년 락커룸이 될 수 있는지 말해준다. --Fæ (토크) 13:55, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
내 농담은 트랜스포비아톤도 편집자톤도 아니었고 여기 있는 대부분의 사람들은 상식을 선호하는 것처럼 보일 것이다.여기 있는 너와 네 지지자들은 말도 안 돼, 눈 사이에 부딪히면 진실을 모를 때까지 서로를 부추겨.특히, 나는 내가 "트랜스 여성들이 정신적으로 병든 위험한 남자들이 끌려다니는 것"이라고 말한 것으로 인용된 의 이 특히심술궂고 악의적인 게시물을 생각하고 있다. 나는 내가 "트랜스 여성들의 용사"로 이어지는 나의 발언에 대해 말하고 싶다.나는 코멘트로 그것을 고상하게 여기지도 않을 것이다.아니, 네 친구들은 좋아하는 것을 올리고 믿고 과장해.당신의 경쟁사가 공공 기물 파손에 시달린 것은 유감스럽지만, 당신이 찾을 수 있는 유일한 것은 대담하게도 당신의 경쟁사에 대해 몇 가지 타당한 문제를 제기했던 내 페이지와의 링크였다.그것은 범죄가 아니다.나는 LGBT 사람들에 대한 개인적인 동정심이 매우 크다. 나는 그것이 삶에서 지켜야 할 쉬운 길이 아니라고 생각할 것이다. 하지만 어떤 사람들은 당신이 당신의 프로필을 올리고 그것을 도덕적인 개혁으로 바꾸려고 하는 방법에 대해 의문을 품기 때문에 여기에 와서 불평하지 마라!지아노 (토크) 15:06, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:AtticusRex

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2019년 5월 24일 이후 편집. 11 반달리즘, POV 밀기, 명예훼손 패턴이 뚜렷한 편집.전체적으로 이 편집자의 기고문은 백과사전을 짓기 위해 이곳에 온 이 아님을 나타내는 것으로 보인다. --잭 프로스트 (토크) 04:50, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자 네노니엘

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

네노니엘 편집장은 리차드 페르보 기사에서 여러 편집자들이 이런 농담을 지우고 자신의 토크 페이지에 경고를 남기는데도 불구하고 피험자의 성에 대한 명언을 삽입하는 등 파괴적인 편집에 나서고 있다.네노니엘은 또한 부적절한 WP를 떠났다.내 개인 토크 페이지비소셜 코멘트.Muzilon (talk) 00:37, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]

네노니엘을 48시간 동안 막았다.관리자라면 누구나 더 이상 자유롭게 차단할 수 있다.--Bb23 (대화) 00:42, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
@Bb23:고맙다.또한 익명의 핀란드 IP 주소가 WP일 가능성이 높은 Richard Pervo 기사를 파괴하는 것에 주목하십시오.SOCK. Muzilon (대화) 00:48, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그 페이지를 내 감시 목록에 올렸다.편집을 재개하고 내가 온위키가 아니라면 다른 관리자에게 연락해야 한다.--Bbb23 (대화) 00:54, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

테러선전

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕

2017년 일부 IP는 알 바얀_(radio_station)아마크의 웹사이트에 링크를 추가했다.그 웹사이트들은 메타위키에서 블랙리스트에 올랐다.2017년 9월과 11월 이후 기사에 테러 연계를 추가하는 IP는 없다.이제 우리는 테러리스트들의 선전에 대한 연결고리를 제거하기 위해 역사를 숙청해야 하는가?일부 연결고리가 여전히 유효한지 모르겠다(유효해진 일부 연결고리가 테러리스트들에 의해 수리될 가능성도 있다).

그리고 당국에 문제가 생기는 것을 원치 않기 때문에 웹사이트가 다운되었는지 확인할 수 없다.--Panam2014 (대화) 20:42, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

Al-Bayan에 있던 것이 다운된 것으로 보인다[13].위키만5676 (대화) 07:16, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 테러리스트들의 선전과 연계하는 것이 범죄라고 생각하지 않는다.이건 오버래이터들을 위한 질문인 것 같아.록스톤토크! 2019년 6월 29일 19시 45분 (UTC)[응답]
조사하는 중...~오슈와~(talk) (contribs)06:29, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
여기에 보고된 내용과 정보를 살펴본 후, 나는 문제의 수정안에 감독 정책이 억제 사용을 승인하는 내용이 포함되어 있지 않다고 결론 내릴 수 있다.테러 선전이 포함된 URL의 추가는 분명히 파괴적인 편집으로 간주될 수 있고, 이에 대응하는 기사나 페이지에서 삭제될 수 있으며, 결과적으로 사용자에 대해 취한 조치들은 그대로 유지될 수 있다.~오슈와~(talk) (contribs)06:47, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

요사크라이의 파괴적 편집

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

나는 행정관이 이것을 조사할 수 있으면 좋겠다.이전에 수카비치 랑싯폴 기사와 토크 페이지에서 유사한 편집을 하는 양말 퍼펫이 차단되었다.나는 나를 포함한 다른 편집자들이 이 특별한 화신에 인내심을 가지려고 노력했고 현재 진행중인 RFC가 있다고 생각한다.RFC가 시작되었을 때, 나는 지저분한 토크 페이지를 보관했다.하지만, RFC가 진행 중임에도 불구하고, 예전처럼 똑같은 스팸이 반복해서 거기에 다시 게시된다.마찬가지로, 그 글에서 이의를 제기한 편집도 복원된다.비록 내가 다른 것들을 제공할 수 있지만, Special을 보면:기고/요사크라이, 페이지 역사, 토크 페이지 역사는 아마 충분히 명백할 것이다.이전의 경고는 또한 WP뿐만 아니라 그들의 토크 페이지에도 게시되었다.BLPN#수카비치 랑싯폴.관련 SPI 페이지와 CU 결과는 결론에 이르지 못했다.이전의 삭싱과 IP 주소 편집을 고려하면 페이지 보호도 필요할 수 있다.고마워, —PaleoNeonate – 17:57, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 그것을 다시 내가 생각하는 토크 페이지의 일치된 것으로 되돌렸고 일단 그것을 보호했다.Sasquatch t c 19:42, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
다시 생각해 보니, 나는 그 페이지에서 작업해 온 더 많은 경험이 있는 편집자들이 계속 그렇게 할 수 있도록 그것을 확증된 보호장치로 늘렸다.Sasquatch t c 19:45, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

플렉스버스/아샤피르

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자가 WP인 것 같음:SPA는 이 버스 회사에 대해 가능한 한 많은 "더스트"를 추가할 수 있는 유일한 목적을 가지고 있다.이전의 ANI에서 그들은 근거 없이 소위에게 "편향된 행정"을 비난했다.POV, RS, 카피비오 기사에서 몇 건의 사소한 사건들을 삭제한 후 [14][15][16] 그들은 내가 회사와의 어떤 제휴관계 때문에 페이지를 어떻게든 보호하고 있다는 백핸드 암시로 대화 페이지에서 끊임없이 논쟁을 벌였다.[17]

내가 그들의 최근 시간표/예약 분쟁 등에 관한 사소한 내용의 기고를 정리했을 때, 그들의 반응은 기사 토크 페이지[18]와 내 토크 페이지[19]에 나를 "플렉스버스와 사이가 좋지 않다"고 직접 고발하는 것이었다.좀 도와주시면 감사하겠습니다만. -- 베이군 11시 29분, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 플렉스버스 페이지에는 "PR 스타일" 동작이 표시된다.
a) 플렉스버스는 독일의 회사다.위키 페이지는 독일 WiKi에 의해 공식적으로 감시되었다.그러나 현재 플렉스버스는 유럽 전역과 미국에서 집중적으로 운행되고 있다.페이지에 게재된 사건들은 독일 밖이었고, 이 정보보다 더 빨리 삭제되었다.b) 처음에 페이지의 변경에 주목한 사용자 소위(SoWhy)는 사용자의 논평 직후에 다른 익명의 사용자가 보다 긍정적으로 보기 위해 페이지를 "고치기" 시작했다는 것이다.xbus HQ. c) 지역의 변호사다.그래서 유저간에는 명확한 연관성이 있거나 2명의 유저 ID로 동일인이 행동할 가능성이 있다.) 논란이 많이 발견되었음에도 불구하고 페이지 전체가 회사 서비스에 100% 긍정적이었다.아샤피르 (대화) 11시 44분, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
FWIW, 뮌헨에 본사를 둔 약 14,000명의 변호사들과 주변 지역에 약 7,000명의 변호사가 있다.그러나 나는 그들 중 한 명이고 나는 이 버스 회사에서 일하는 사람이 아니지만, Ashafir는 분명히 WP를 무시함으로써 내린 결론이다.NPAWP:AGF는 가능한 한 많이.베궁이 앞서 지적했듯이 이 사용자는 전적으로 사용자 생성 소셜 미디어 플랫폼에 소싱된 비고 사소한 '논란'을 추가함으로써 큰 잘못을 바로잡는 데 관심이 있는 것으로 보인다.SoWhy 12:00, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
lol. 글쎄, 난 변호사가 아니고, TV나 심지어 인터넷에서도 한 번도 안 해봤어.90년대에 한 번 독일을 방문한 적이 있는데 매우 즐거웠다. -- Bagoon 12:16, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 여기서 분명히 보이는 것은 두 사용자(소위, 베궁)가 플렉스버스를 변호하는 '변호인 스타일'을 쓰고 있다는 점이다.열거된 그들의 관점 정책에만 유리한 점이 있다.그러나, 예를 들어 WP:굵게. 나열된 문법 오류는 수정되지 않고 전체 데이터가 지워졌다.도움을 주려는 어떠한 가시적인 시도도 없지만, 그것은 플렉스버스 페이지에서 PR이 아닌 것으로 보이는 데이터를 지우기 위한 매우 분명한 표시다.
더구나 플렉스버스 페이지의 초기 "수정"은 "완전한 청소"였기 때문에 "역사"에는 흔적조차 없었다!또한 처음에 이 보정이 있는 페이지가 여러 시간 동안 머물렀는지 쉽게 확인할 수 있지만, 사용자 SoWhy가 그것을 알아차렸을 때, 알려지지 않은 사용자의 "완전한 삭제"는 거의 즉각적으로 매우 짧은 시간에 일어난다.사용자 SoWhy와 FlixBus 사이에 연결점이 있을 때마다 커뮤니티의 관심이 관련되어 있다.아샤피르 (대화) 12:26, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
도대체 무슨 말을 하는 거야?가 가지고 있는 내용에서 너의 서투른 문법을 고쳐준 것을 보는 사람은 누구나 알 수 있다.아샤피르 - 구덩이에 빠졌을 때는 땅을 파는 것을 그만둬야 한다. -- 12:33, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답하라]
그리고 난 솔직히 네가 무슨 말을 하는지 전혀 모르겠어.나는 반달리즘/무소요 변경사항을 되돌리기 위해 페이지를 5번, 그리고 삭제하기 위해 추가한 저작권 위반을 태그하기 위해 3번만 편집했다.SoWhy 12:35, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
그래, 내가 왜 설명할 건데?1) I initially added the data to the page at 15:59, 16 June 2019. 2) You wrote to me at 05:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC). 3) soon after this the FlixBus page was edited that there was no trace of my initial submission in the history at all . Unfortunately i have no screenshot of this but I am sure the server logs have it. 3) Than, after I raised concern관리 페이지를 통해 이 내역이 마법처럼 업데이트되었으며, 이제 사용자 Praxidicae가 해당 정보를 삭제했음을 보여준다(토크 페이지에 알림 없이 btw).4) 또 다른 사용자 Bonadea가 편집을 되돌렸다.5) 현재 사용자 베군(Begoon)은 신문 데이터에 게재된 많은 부분을 "다양한" 자료로 삭제하기 위해 싸우고 있다.물론 모든 것이 우연의 일치일 수 있다.네가 변호사야사건 주변에 우연이 너무 많은 걸 보면 어떻게 보여?나는 내 작품 중 일부가 제대로 포맷되지 않았거나 스펠링 체크되지 않았다는 것을 이해하고 동의한다.그러나 익명이 아닌 플렉스버스의 고객들로부터 온 아주 상세한 자료는 물론 심지어 신문사의 자료까지도 '비합리적'이고 '쓸데없는' 것이라는 주장은 상당히 이상해 보인다.플렉스버스 주변에서도 같은 이야기가 곳곳에서 벌어진다.좋은 PR을 위한 IMHO는 고객 지원 등을 필요로 한다.이것을 통합한 많은 비즈니스 모델들이 있다.그러나 "불편한" 데이터를 정리한다고 해서 상황이 전혀 해결되는 것은 아니다.당신이 아는 변호사로서.아샤피르 (대화) 13:25, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
아샤피르, 당신이 소개하려던 콘텐츠는 베군, 소왜, 프락시디카에 등 세 명의 편집자가 삭제했다.편집이 제거되면 계속 다시 추가해도 괜찮지 않다.그걸 편집 전쟁이라고 하는데, 그걸 하면 차단될 수 있어.대신, 볼드(BOLD)에 따라, 되돌리고, 사이클을 토론하면, 당신은 토크 페이지를 방문하여 왜 그 자료가 포함되어야 하는지에 대한 사례를 만들어야 한다.이들 세 편집자는 모두 오랜 기간 위키백과 기고자로 자료 삭제에 대한 정책적, 내용적 근거적 이유를 갖고 있기 때문에, (이 회사와 어느 정도 개인적인 연고가 있기 때문에 삭제하는 것이 아니라) 포함하기에 적합하지 않기 때문에 정확하게 제거하고 있을 가능성이 높다.버스를 기다려야 하는 것은 종이 백과사전에서 볼 수 있는 것이 아니며, 우리가 찾고 있는 내용 또한 아니다.다이애나비 (대화) 13:36, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
Dianna, 최초 제출과 특히 추가된 레비언/링크를 확인하십시오.([21]) 상황은 「버스를 기다리는 것」과는 거리가 멀다.회사가 기다린 후에도 대체 버스를 제공하지 않고, 숙박도 하지 않고, 버스 노쇼를 전혀 반대하려고 노력했다.15명의 입장권 소지자들이 신문사에 연락해 사연이 게재된 정확한 이유다.그리고 이것은 플렉스버스와 관련된 사건들의 고립된 사례도 아니고 최악의 경우도 아니다.이 사건은 단지 나의 최초 제출에 열거된 다른 사건들이 모두 삭제되었고 이것은 공식적으로 출처를 확인한 몇 안 되는 몇 안 되는 사건들 중 하나라는 이유만으로 단독으로 나열된다.나는 또한 토크 페이지에 관련 질문을 추가했지만 현재까지 무시되고 있다: 위에서 논의한 내용을 바탕으로 이상의 편집 전쟁을 피하기 위해 "사건의 심각성"을 명확히 하는 것이 타당하다. 단체나 가족이 평소처럼 여행을 하는 상황을 상상해 보자. 교통법규 등을 알고 있다. 그것은 버스가 정류장에 있을 것으로 예상하지만 멈추지 않는다. 그것은 운송 회사와 이 사건을 해결하기를 기대하지만 명백히 무시했다. 관련 후기를 읽고, 회사 처리의 매우 안정적인 패턴임을 알게 된다. 가족/그룹을 위한 "다양한 사건"인가? 물론 아니다. 전체 휴가 계획을 방해하기 때문에 대부분의 여행 비용보다 비용이 더 많이 든다. 회사치고는 하찮은 일인가? 물론 그것이 법정 소송에만 신경 쓰지만 고객에 대해서는 신경 쓰지 않는다면 그렇다. 문제는 백과사전의 독자들을 위한 "다양한 사건"이다. 회사뿐만 아니라 일반 독자들이 읽는 팬들도 있을 겁니다. 그래서 위에서 말한 것처럼, 만약 어떤 사고가 통신사에 의해 알려지고 공표되었다면 그것은 "미리 사실적, 혹은 심지어 검증 가능한 사실" 그 이상이다. 나는 "진실하고 검증 가능한"이 뉴스에 게재된 것보다 더 많은 사건들에 적용 가능하다고 말할 수 있다. 그래서 뉴스 출판은 "비경쟁성"의 쓰레기통이 될 수 있다. 어때? 그런 '특수성'에 대한 구체적인 방침이 있는가?--아샤피르(대화) 14:09, 2019년 6월 25일(UTC)[응답]
나는 네가 나나 소위를 무엇 때문에 비난하고 있는지 모르겠고 나는 위의 비난을 읽지 않을 것이다. 그러나 나는 나의 되돌릴 필요가 있는 설명이 노골적으로 신뢰할 수 없고, 솔직히 쓰레기 소싱이라고 생각하지 않았다.나는 이 회사에 대해 아무것도 모르고, 믿을 만한 출처가 아닌 트립어드바이저를 리뷰용으로, 페이스북 그룹이나 당신이 추가한 다른 어떤 독창적인 연구도 아닌 것을 코이봇을 통해 몇 개의 필터가 작동되기 전까지는 들어본 적이 없었다.또한 당신이 추가한 내용은 겟휴먼(신뢰할 수 없고 블랙리스트에 포함되어야 함), 트립어드바이저(위 설명), 체크마이버스(신뢰할 수 없음)로 소싱되었기 때문에, 독창적인 연구 방침이 없는 것 외에, WP를 읽어야 할 것이다.RS, 이게 아니니까프락시디카에 (대화) 13:40, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
네가 변호사야 사건 주변에 우연이 너무 많은 걸 보면 어떻게 보여?IANAL 그러나 이제 그 양철모자를 치울 시간이다.프락시디카에 (대화) 13:40, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
요점을 바꾸려고 정말 좋은 시도였어.이것은 오래된 FIDO 스타일의 불꽃처럼 보이기 시작한다.그러나 중요한 것은 당신이 포일 모자를 쓰거나 쓰지 않을 때마다 아주 사소한 문제에서 출발하는 플렉스버스와 심각한 사건이 있었고 플렉스버스 본사의 부주의로 인해 "소음"으로 전환되어 신문에도 등장했다는 점이다.백과사전에 이 자료를 제외할 수 있는 "부루한" 변호사 스타일의 반대가 많다.왜 단 한 번의 해결 시도도 없는 겁니까?청소만 해.흔적도 없는 게 낫다.아샤피르 (대화) 14:17, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
(갈등 편집) 나는 기사의 토크 페이지에 상당한 시간을 할애하여, 가난한 출처와 저작권 위반은 제쳐두고, 시간표, 공연, 고객 서비스, 예약 문제 등에 관한 개별적인 불만 사항을 "합집화"하여 패턴을 확립하려고 할 수 없다는 것을 이해하려고 노력했다.is WP:ORWP:그러나 통합은 오히려 전체로서 문제를 토론하는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 찾고, 그렇지 않으면 결론날 수 있는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처와 함께 이들의 결론을 인용할 필요가 있다.

그 답례로 당신은 기본적으로 소와 나 둘 다 회사를 위해 "shill"이라고 비난했다.이것은 수치스러운 행동이며, 특히 당신이 WP인 것처럼 보이는 상황에서 도끼가 있는 것처럼 보이는 유일한 사람이 당신일 때 특히 그렇다.SPA는 이 회사에 "더러운 것"을 하는 것 외에는 다른 목적이 없다.이것을 깨닫고 물러나는 대신, 당신은 더욱 깊이 자신을 파고들어 더 많은 사람들을 비난하고 있는 것처럼 보인다.

처음에 나는 모든 신규 사용자들과 함께 하려고 노력했기 때문에 당신을 돕고자 하는 마음이 있었지만, 당신은 어떤 호의도 파괴하려 하지 않는 것 같다. -- Bagoon 13:50, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

돕든 말든 상관없어백과사전은 대중을 도울 것이다.승객에게 도움이 될 수 있는 FlifBus에 대한 검증 가능한 데이터가 있는 경우 이를 제시해야 한다.물론 정책에 따르면.그리고 이것은 확실히 나보다 경험이 많은 기고자로서 도움을 줄 수 있다.--아샤피르 (대화) 14:30, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
Ashafir 이것은 당신이 개인적으로 문제가 있는 것처럼 들리는데, 그것은 위키피디아가 아닌 다른 곳에서 다뤄질 필요가 있다.프락시디카에 (대화) 14:10, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
프락시디카에 "사운드"?그것은 특히 이 페이지에 대한 당신의 이전 논평의 관점에서는 매우 이상하다.링크 옆의 기사를 읽어 보셨습니까?모든 링크는 (고정된 후) 아직 역사에 남아 있다.왜 내 개인적인 문제인지 명확히 해주시겠습니까? --아샤피르 (대화) 14:24, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
왜냐하면 여기 있는 당신의 모든 불평은 겉보기에는 회사에 관한 것이어서 위키백과와는 무관하기 때문이다.그들은 "이 회사가 형편없는 나쁜 짓을 했다"와 맞먹지만 믿을만한 소식통들은 이를 지지하지 않는다.만약 우리가 트립어드바이저나 비슷한 사이트 리뷰를 기사에 허용한다면, 우리는 스팸과 복어의 디렉토리가 될 것이다.그러나 현재의 정책과 합의는 당신이 추가한 출처가 받아들일 수 없다는 것이기 때문에 이 또한 무관하다.간단하다.프락시디카에 (대화) 14:27, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 만약 당신의 주장이 "뉴스 소스"라고 한다면, 그렇다, 그것은 신문일 수도 있지만, 이 특정 작품은 무작위 op-ed와 같은 무게를 가지고 있다.그것은 독자가 정보를 제출하고, 검증되지 않은 충격적이고, 인터넷 리뷰를 바탕으로 한 것이다.프락시디카에 (대화) 14:33, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
Praxidicae Tripadsor에 대해서는 잊어버려라.당신은 신문 기사와 관련된 최근의 복귀에 대해 같은 줄의 주장을 사용할 수 있는가?FlixBus 페이지 기록을 확인하십시오.고마워.--아샤피르 (대화) 14:39, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
프락시디카에오크, 이제 reszow.wyborcza.pl은 트립어드바이저와 동일하지?다음은? --Ashafir (대화) 14:42, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
제발 이 토론에 대해 그만 좀 말대꾸해줘.난 널 한 번 되돌린 적이 있다.그러나 공식적으로 말하자면, 나는 베궁의 복귀에 동의한다. 왜냐하면 이것은 비누 상자가 아니고 사소한 것이기 때문이다.버스가 오작동하거나, 픽업을 놓치거나, 사고가 날 때마다 추가하는 것은 사소한 일이다.위키피디아의 정책을 준수할 정도로 만성적이고 보고되지 않는 한, 이런 일이 일어나면 안 된다.그리고 아니, 나는 그것이 트립어드바이저와 같다고 말하지 않았다. 나는 독자가 트립어드바이저 리뷰를 바탕으로 정보를 제출했기 때문에 op-ed와 동등하다고 말했는데, 그것은 그들의 해명 노트에 정확히 나와 있는 것이다.이제 막대기를 내려놔, 제발.프락시디카에 (대화) 14:44, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
Praxidicae 나는 매우 미안하지만 너는 다시 요점을 왜곡하고 있다.기록에 의하면, 이 기사가 "똥 같은 일이 일어난다"는 것이 아니라 독일 (바바리안) 회사 FLiXB의 잘못된 취급이기 때문에 신문에 게재된 이유.고객 지원을 관리하고 있는 미국. PraxidicaeBegoon에 따르면 그것은 "만성적이고 보고된" 것이 틀림없다. 그리고 사실 그렇다. 정말 고질적이다. 이것은 고립된 경우가 아니다. 예약 ID, 이름, 사진[22], 페이스북의 동영상, 트립어드바이저(예스!) 및 기타 출처를 포함한 수백 건의 보고서가 이를 명확하게 나타내고 있다. 플렉스버스의 처리 방식이 바뀔 조짐이 없기 때문에 엔시클로피디아에 보관하면 더 많은 승객들이 곤경에 처하게 될이다.--아샤피르 (토크) 15:13, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
이번이 내가 마지막으로 물어보는 거야 - 난 내 파트라고 했어. 여기서 그만 좀 놀려.당신은 그것을 얻지 못하거나 의도적으로 거절하고 있다.트립어드바이저와 페이스북은 결코 이런 성격의 콘텐츠에 적합한 출처가 아니다.프락시디카에 (대화) 15:03, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

프로포즈

내가 보기에 아샤피르막대를 놓을 생각이 없고 위키피디아가 무엇을 위한 것인지 잘 이해하지 못하는 것 같아 이 기사에 대한 무기한 주제 금지나 WP에 대한 전면적인 차단 중 하나를 제안하고 싶다.IDHTWP:Tendagy 행동뿐만 아니라 그들이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처, 검증가능성, 백과사전의 일반적인 목적에 대한 이해를 보여주면 그것이 해제될 수 있다는 조건 하에 복수의 편집자들을 불신 편집 또는 "실링"으로 고발한 노골적인 인신공격도 있다.프락시디카에 (대화) 15:27, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 그들이 다른 어떤 것도 편집하지 않았고 백과사전을 만들기 위해 여기 있는 것처럼 보이지 않기 때문에 완전한 블록을 선호한다고 덧붙여야 할 것 같다.프락시디카에 (대화) 15:32, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

토론 계속

백과사전 또는 백과사전이란 모든 분야 또는 특정 분야 또는 규율의 지식 요약을 제공하는 참고서 또는 컴포디엄이다.[25]

나는 여기서 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 모른다.아마도 내가 검증 가능한 출처에서 이 데이터를 추가하려고 하는 것이 틀렸을 것이다.나는 그것을 막아야 할 유일한 이유를 안다 - 그것은 회사에 좋은 홍보를 더하지 못하고 있다.편집자의 마음을 바꾸려면 얼마나 많은 사건이 필요한지 모르겠다.오늘 또 다른 사소한 것: [26] --아샤피르 (대화) 17:25, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

[이전 절에서 여기로 의견 이동] 107.190.33.254 (대화) 15:27, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 또 하나의 "다행한 사건"[27].물론 "그것은 시스템이 아니다".버스 회사에 대한 또 다른 "흙"은..'가짜뉴스' 거의…--아샤피르 (대화) 17:11, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
아샤피르, 위의 요점을 증명하는 것 말고는 어떻게 이 제안과 관련이 있을까?프락시디카에 (대화) 19:25, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
기록만 보고.당신은 이 정보를 백과사전에 나열하지 않는 많은 정책을 찾을 수 있다.그것은 너에게 쉽다.넌 익명이야.부끄럽지 않다.그러나 나에게 있어 분명히 도움이 필요한 사람들을 도울 수 없다는 것은 부끄러운 일이다.--아샤피르 (대화) 08:45, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
당신은 당신이 이 실에 글을 올릴 때마다 당신에게 부과된 직접적인 제재 없이 그것이 보관되는 것을 막고, 당신이 계속해서 주제-반 또는 차단하는 것을 거부함으로써 누군가가 지루해하거나 짜증나게 될 가능성을 증가시킨다는 것을 깨달았는가?그냥 확인. --Baboon 13:50, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
이거 다 해.편집자는 그것을 이해하지 못하고, 회사와 결탁할 도끼가 있고, 큰 잘못을 바로잡는 데만 관심이 있다.막혔다.캔터베리 테일 토크 17:21, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

양말농장

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

루이스의 다양한 화신들은 WP의 나쁜 예를 가지고 있다.IDHT. 사용자 대화:Louis00012사용자 대화:루이보로미오12호는 이미 봉쇄되었다.맨체스터 아레나 폭격도 반보호해줘.--1919년 7월 1일 (UTC) 08(talk to me):44,7월 1일 (답)

나는 크라카토아카티와 내가 동시에 버튼을 누른 후 두 달로 반보호를 재설정했다.그녀는 그것을 연구하고 있다...
베레안 헌터(토크) 12:18, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

제러미9192

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자가 카피비오의 스왓치를 다양한 기사에 복사/붙여넣기, 최종 경고 후 복구 및 유지 시간보다 빠름{{copyvio-revdel}}s. -- Bagoon 10:25, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 업데이트 - 내가 게시한 후 중지된 것으로 보여서 아마 지금 메시지가 전달되고 있을 것이다. -- Begoon 10:33, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

약간의 "믹스업" (아래 "사용자 편집기 45671" 스레드에서 이동)

  • 다른 스레드에서: "아니면 아마 그들의 손가락은 그저 피곤할 뿐이야.그들은 무응답으로 한 번 이상 경고를 받았다.나는 그들이 카피비오에 대한 이해를 멈추고 암시하는 것을 제공하는데 동의한다면 그들은 차단되지 않을 수 있다.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, renamer 01:19, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)"
@Dlohcierkim:이 사용자를 차단하는 것을 잊으셨습니까?ST47 (대화) 01:59, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
대신 드로시레킴제레미9192를 막은 것으로 보인다.혹시 착오가 있나?왜냐하면 Jeremy9192의 위의 나사산은 문제가 블록 없이 중단되었음을 나타내기 때문이다.— 마일 (대화) 02:13, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
블록 이론은 제레미를 위한 것으로 보인다. -미친(채널 2) 02:26, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답하라]

오, 맙소사.DLOhcierkim (대화) 02:39, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

카피비오 사람을 차단한 것 같군내가 제레미에게 사과할 경우를 대비해서 누군가 좀 훑어봐 줘.DLOhcierkim (대화) 02:41, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

아직도 이상해내가 ANI의 예전 버전을 오픈한 게 틀림없어.나는 닫힌 실에 신경 쓰지 않고, 그 1.03:02, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)에 포스팅하는 줄 알았다.

  • 나는 WP에서 다음과 같이 말하는 것을 본 적이 있다.최근 편집 충돌 주변에서 일어나는 이상한 일들에 대한 VPT...ST47 (대화) 03:08, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    ANI에서 항상 이상한 일들이 일어나 편집 충돌이 있었고, 때로는 "편집 충돌" 경고가 있어야 할 때 표시되지 않을 때도 있다.다양한 사람들이 다양한 기간 동안 서로 다른 편집 창을 열어놓고 있는 동안 페이지 크기와 빠른 동시 편집/섹션의 수가 끊임없이 생성되거나 제거되는 것을 합친 것이라고 생각하지만, 내가 기억할 수 있는 한 그것은 "무엇"이었다.ANI에 대한 편집이 원하는 효과가 있었고 부수적인 피해가 없었는지 항상 확인해야 한다. --Begoon 03:34, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    제레미가 저작권을 이해하고 책으로부터 엄청난 양의 텍스트를 복사/붙여넣지 않을 것이라는 것을 확인할 때까지 제레미를 차단하는 것은 충분히 공정한 결정인 것 같다. - 아마 내가 그 부분을 스스로 닫지 말았어야 했는데, 그는 한동안 멈춰서서서 누군가가 레블을 쫓는 것을 원하지 않았다.이미 끝났었다.확인을 강요하는 것도 나쁘지 않을 것 같다 - 카피바이오가 많았고, 무시하는 듯한 경고가 여러 개 있었다. - 베이군 03:53, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    DLOhcierkim을 핑하는 중, 내가 잊어버렸기 때문에... -- Begoon 03:58, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[답글]
    내가 제레미를 지나치게 막았다고 생각되는 사람이 있다면, 제발 제레미의 차단을 풀어줘.누가 제레미 부분을 제레미 실로 옮겨줄 수 있을까?누가 제레미 부분을 제레미 실로 옮겨야 할까?이거 너무 어색하다.DLOhcierkim (talk) 05:53, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    이동... -- Bagoon 07:34, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    @Dlohcierkim:도움이 된다면, 내가 생각하기에 정확한 게시물인 ANI에 글을 쓸 때, 미리 보기를 하면, 다른 섹션에 올려질 것이라는 것을 나는 가끔 알아차렸다.다른 편집자가 새 섹션을 저장했거나 섹션이 아카이브되었기 때문에 편집 중에 섹션의 순서가 변경될 때 이러한 현상이 발생하는 것 같아.ANI에 저장하기 전에 항상 미리 보는 것도 한 가지 이유. --Blackmane (토크) 07:50, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
    응 - 내가 위에서 설명하려고 했던 건데, 좀 더 간결하게 표현했구나. - 베이군 07:55, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

법적 위협?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

관리자가 사용자 대화를 간단히 살펴보십시오. 최근의 편집이 WP:NLT를 위반하는 것으로 보이는 DuvellsCat?안타까운 것은 듀벨스캣이 자신들의 고민에 대해 관심을 갖지 못한 것처럼 보인다는 것은 그들의 고민거리가 어느 기사에 있는 존 크리스토둘루(John Christodoulou)의 토크 페이지가 아닌 그들만의 토크 페이지에서 모든 것을 하고 있기 때문이다.그들이 일리가 있을지 없을지는 모르겠지만, 현재로서는 그것은 단지 성난 신참자에게 BLP 문제의 교과서적인 예처럼 보이지 않는다.평화로운 해결을 바라며, 2A01:4C8:103B:9A86:5DB4:8990:E94F:B4AF (토크) 13:36, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]

사용자 대화:DuvellsCat사용자:닌자로봇피레이트.[28]을 참조하십시오.AryaTargaryen (대화) 13:52, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)AryaTargaryen[응답]

사실, 이 보고서가 공개되기 7분 전에 내가 그렇게 한 것 같아.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 14:00, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
당신은 당신이 했어야 했다고 전적으로 확신하십니까?그것은 다른 곳에 놓였어야 할 어떤 것으로 보여서, 좌절하는 작가가 계속해서 수사력을 높이도록 한다. 그가 자신의 우려를 어디에 표현했어야 하는지에 대한 간략한 설명으로 마지막 두 편집본을 롤백하는 것이 더 나을지도 모른다.Qwirkle (대화) 14:08, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
아이고, 타이밍이 유감이군.분명히 내가 시작했을 때 그는 이미 차단된 것은 아니었지만, 내가 NLT를 찾아 헤맸을 때쯤에는 그의 에세이를 읽었고, 그리고 네가 뭘 했는지...나는 나머지는 언급하지 않을 것이다 – 그것은 이제 무트(AmE 센스)이고 나는 관리자가 아니다.모두 2A01:4C8:103B:9A86:5DB4:8990:E94F:B4AF (토크) 14:39, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
더 나아가서 - 내가 편집자에게 알리는 것을 잊은 것을 후회한다.미안: 난 ANI의 단골은 아니야.내가 지금 그렇게 해야 할까 아니면 그냥 "그냥 내버려둬" 해야 할까?좀 안정적인 문어처럼 보이지만... 만약 필요하다면, 말해라, 그리고 그렇게 할 것이다.고마워 2A01:4C8:103B:9A86:5DB4:8990:E94F:B4AF (토크) 15:44, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
이젠 그냥 놔둘 거야, 일이 흘러갔어. --말콤xl5 (대화) 20:11, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

심각한 고발, 익명으로 소싱

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

오늘 발행된 '시그포스트'에는 위키백과라는 기사가 실려 있다.Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30/특수 보고서, 허용 가능한 저널리즘 콘텐츠에 대한 기준에 부합하지 않는다고 생각한다.특히 사용자에 대한 심각한 고발이 있다.익명의 소식통에 의하면, 프람."남자로서 성희롱을 당하기 어렵고 당혹스럽다"는 식의 시작이다.프람은 이러한 비난에 대해 부인하고 있지만, 시그너처 포스트는 그의 부인에 대한 인용이나 연계를 거부하고 있으며 프람은 현재 위키피디아에 대한 답변을 할 수 없다.팻말 포스트는 이 익명의 고발을 출판하기 전에 검증했다는 어떤 징후도 보이지 않는다.검증되지 않은 익명의 고발은 갈 길이 아니다.이 섹션은 기사가 초안 형태일 때 반복적으로 삭제되었으나 항상 복구되었다 [29] 사용자:Smallbone은 기사에 대한 책임을 인정하고 ANI에 불만을 지시한다.[30] 그래서 나는 여기 있다.하우쿠르 (대화) 22:38, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 살아있는 사람들에 대한 비협조적인 내용은 위키피디아 정책이다.만일 이것이 사실이라면, Signpost/author가 BLP 정책을 위반했다."언론-시간" 전에 합의에 반대하여 반복적으로 재삽입하는 것은 표지판의 정신을 침해할 수 있다.
어떤 관리 조치가 제안되나?--마크 밀러 (대화) 23:57, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
  • "합의 반대" 문구의 근거를 제시하십시오.브리 (대화) 00:23, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 안녕 브리! 당신은 익명의 출처로부터 이름을 올린 사람을 검증하지 않고 그대로 고발하는 것에 대해 어떻게 생각하는가?그 저널리즘이 자랑스러워할 만한가?철회되어야 할 기사인가?하우쿠르 (대화) 00:35, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 그렇다면, 그 때 어떤 다른 의견들도 공감대를 보이지 않는가?브리(토크) 01:20, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 나는 그것이 진짜 문제가 아니라고 생각한다.사용자:스몰본은 기사에 대한 전적인 책임을 인정한다, 그것은 우리가 흔히 생각하는 집단적 의사결정의 문제가 아니다.하우쿠르 (대화) 01:26, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
저자는 공개적으로 밝혀지기를 원하지 않는 9명의 편집자를 인용했다.그것은 저자가 인용문의 타당성을 증명하기 위해 편집자의 이름을 개인적으로 제공할 수 있기 때문에 그들의 논평/질문을 사용하거나 논평할 수 없다는 것을 의미하는가?그것이 지역 사회 자체의 정책과 지침에 따라 표지판의 공식 성명, 논평 또는 질문에 충분한지 확실하지 않다.나는 위키피디아 생활자의 전기 표준이 증명할 수 없는 출처로 위반되었다고 생각한다.살아 있는 사람에 대한 내용은 다중적이고 검증 가능한 참고자료가 있어야 한다.나는 이 인용문이 참고자료로 여겨지는지 잘 모르겠다...사실, 나는 그것들이 표지판의 이러한 주장에 대한 믿을만한 출처가 아니라고 확신한다.적어도 상당히 약하고 최악의 경우 제3자의 근거 없는 비난이다.--마크 밀러 (대화) 00:21, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
얼마나 많은 위키백과 편집자들이 WMF의 주장을 옳게 증명하려고 결심하는지 보는 것은 흥미로울 것이다. WMF는 우리가 자신의 절차에 따라 신뢰할 수 있는 비난에 대처할 능력이 없다는 것을 증명하는 대신, 까다롭지만 생산적인 편집자들이 자신들에 대한 어떠한 비난도 반드시 야만적이고 인신공격이어야 한다는 주장 뒤에 숨기는 것을 선호한다.그들 자신의 행동이 어떻게 같은 방식으로 특징지어지지 않는지 웃긴다.David Eppstein (대화) 00:37, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
물론, 이 고발들을 ArbCom에 가져가서 만약 프람이 "뉴스" 항목에 묘사된 것과 같은 성적 묘사 링크를 반복해서 게시함으로써 다른 편집자의 성희롱에 잔인하게 가담하고 있었다는 것을 믿을 수 있다면, 나는 적절한 조치가 취해질 것이라고 확신한다.그러나 내가 보기에 이것은 완전히 오해의 소지가 있는 계정이고 지금까지 시그너처 포스트는 그것을 검증했다고 주장하지도 않는다.만약 우리가 괴롭힘을 단속하고 싶다면, 이 거짓되고 비열한 비난에 개의치 않는 것으로 시작합시다.하우쿠르 (대화) 00:43, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
[초대 필요.나는 그 고발이 허위라는 것을 증명할 증거가 없다.그러니?그렇지 않다면 왜 거짓이라고 주장하는 겁니까?David Eppstein (대화) 00:48, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
(충돌 편집) 확실히 하기 위해서는 전체 이야기를 보기 위해서는 감시 액세스와 특정 외부 사이트에 대한 데이터베이스 액세스가 필요할 것이다.그러나 쉽게 찾을 수 있는 공적인 정보는 프람의 계정과 일치하며, 그 고발은 반쯤 기억된 사건의 심한 과장처럼 보이게 한다.아니면 내가 잘못된 사건을 보고 있는 것일 수도 있어! (그리고 프람도?)증거가 없는 이런 익명의 공격으로는 확실히 알 수 없다.그런 비난은 일반적으로 낮은 형태의 저널리즘으로 보여지고, 사람들이 이런 종류의 일에 대한 관용이 우리를 덜 괴롭힘으로 더 건강한 공동체로 이동시킬 것이라고 생각하는 것 같을 때 나는 놀랍다.하우쿠르 (대화) 01:01, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
"프람의 계정과 일치한다"는 말은 무슨 뜻인가?비록 싸인포스트 작품에는 프람의 응답이 포함되어 있지만, 그 어느 것도 당신이 골치 아프게 여기는 특정한 비난에 대한 응답이나 설명에 해당하지 않는다.David Eppstein (대화) 01:12, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
투명하게 익명의 그 출처는 편집이 다시 삭제되었다고 주장한다.Fram은 그런 것을 그렇게 많이 가지고 있지 않고, Special에서 그것들을 찾을 수 있는 필터가 있다.기부금/프램.증거가 없으면 일부러 찾지 않기 때문이다.크립틱 00:56, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
그곳에는 수 백 개의 폄하된 기고문이 있는데, 나는 그 중 많은 것(실제로 폄하된 것뿐만 아니라 버전 삭제된 것)에 접근할 수 없다.어쨌든, 우리는 뭔가 수상쩍은 것을 낚아채는 기부 이력을 추적하는 것을 금지하는 규칙을 가지고 있다. 그리고 나는 그들이 누군가가 분명히 익명을 시도했던 이런 경우에 관련될 수 있다고 생각한다.David Eppstein (대화) 01:06, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
그러므로 당신의 마음 속에서는 그 증거를 찾기 위해 편집자 기고를 통해 트롤이 아닌 트롤을 통해 트롤을 트롤이 아닌 심각한 위법행위에 대한 고발을 하는 것이 더 바람직하다.나는 내가 고발이 거짓이라는 것을 증명할 증거가 필요하지만 고발이 신빙성이 있도록 만들지는 않는다고 생각하는 누군가로부터 오는 것을 보았어야 했다고 생각한다.미스터 rndude (대화) 01:10, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
[ec] 내 생각에는 스몰본스가 통상적인 저널리즘의 기준을 충족시키고 있다는 을 선의로 생각하는 것이 더 바람직하다: 익명을 원하는 출처로부터 심각한 비난이 있을 때 스몰본은 그러한 비난들을 검증하기 위해 추가적인 노력을 기울였고, 그 증거를 우리에게 보관하는 이유는 그것이 위반될 것이기 때문이다.출처의 익명성을 먹어치웠다.나는 어떤 신문 기자, 그들의 편집자, 그리고 신문의 법률 고문들에게서도 그 이하를 기대할 것이다.만약 이 추측이 부정확하다면, 스몰본스는 정말로 증거도 없이 익명의 고발자의 말을 받아들였고, 다른 수화물 편집자들은 스몰본스가 부주의하게 그렇게 하도록 허용했다. 그러면 그것은 심각한 문제가 될 것이다. 하지만 정확히 그런 이유로 나는 스몰본스와 다른 수화물 편집자들이 그렇게 하지 않기를 기대할 것이다.David Eppstein (대화) 01:20, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
어느 정도까지 합리화하다.그러나 프람이 성희롱을 가능케 했다는 고발이 심각했다면 그건 ArbCom에 전달했어야 했다.미스터 rndude (대화) 02:39, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
그 고발은 Fram이 성희롱을 "가능하게" 하는 것보다 오히려 더 심각했다.그것은 그가 저지른 일이고, 그것이 실제로 ArbCom에 건네졌다는 것, 그리고 "ArbCom은 단지 어깨를 으쓱하고 무시했을 뿐"(혹은 원한다면, 그것을 가능하게 했다.)이라는 것이었다.David Eppstein (대화) 05:20, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇다면 이러한 비난의 맥락을 찾아 이를 입증하거나 반박하려는 어떤 시도도 잘못된 것인가?그냥 믿음에 대한 불쾌한 익명의 비난이나 받아들여야 할까?시그널포스트는 프람의 답변과 연계하기를 거부한다. 프람이 약간의 추가 정보와 맥락(이름 없음)을 제공하기 때문에, 확실히, 일어날 수 있는 사건을 식별하는 것이 약간 더 쉬워지기 때문이다.하지만 물론 어떤 변론도 더 많은 정보를 가져오는 것을 포함할 것이기 때문에 이것은 그에 대한 비난에 대한 그의 답변권을 부인하는 것에 지나지 않는다.이것은 공정하지 않고 어떤 저널리즘 기준에도 부합되지 않는다.하우쿠르 (대화) 01:16, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
이건 정말 훌륭해.자신들의 권력이 위협받는다고 보는 사람들의 투덜거림과 호객행위가 심해질수록, 우리 사회와 아마도 외부 언론의 논란이 되고 있는 부분에 더 많은 관심이 집중된다.고마워, 고마워.토니 (토크) 00:54, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 노골적이고 지속적인 WP를 위한 Smallbone:BLP 위반, 그리고 다른 편집자들의 우려로 BLP 위반.만약 그들이 그것에 대해 책임을 지길 원한다면, 그렇게 할 수 있는 분명한 방법이 있다.BLP 정책은 명확하고 중요하며, 주제가 얼마나 논쟁의 여지가 있거나 주제적인 것인지, 또는 위반이 저널리즘을 가장하여 행해지고 있는지 여부는 중요하지 않다.Vorbison(탄소동영상) 00:54, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]
    @Deacon Vorbis: - 계속 WP를 통해:BLP 위반, 이번 사건만 말하는 겁니까?이번 사건만이라도 이쯤에서 변명의 지경에 이르지 말자.우리는 기사를 끌어낼 수 있다(그리고 모든 것이 잘되면 복원한다) 그리고 그 동안 스몰본스와 토론을 한다.스타쉽.페인트(토크) 01:58, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    그래, 나는 그들이 반복적으로 텍스트를 삭제한 후에 다시 추가한다는 것을 의미해.그게 확실하지 않다면 사과할게.네 말이 맞을지도 몰라. 오늘 이런 걸 본 게 이번이 두 번째인데, 내가 좀 과민반응했나 봐.나는 내 제안을 받아들이려 하겠지만, 나는 여전히 그것이 받아들일 수 없다고 생각한다.보비스 집사(탄소 • 영상) 02:11, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]

나는 이 대화를 피하지 않았지만 그 주제에 관한 이메일이 계속 쏟아지고 있다.위에 쓰여 있는 것을 읽고 적절한 시기에 대응하겠다.스몰본스(smalltalk) 01:09, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 나는 네가 이 문제들이 해결될 수 있을 때까지 그 기사를 끌어낼 것을 촉구한다.하우쿠르 (대화) 01:16, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

자, 사람들이 깨닫지 못하는 것 같은 것은 프람이 이 인용문에 응답할 수 있는 몇 번의 기회를 얻었지만 그렇지 않았다는 것이다.그는 다른 인용문들과 기사 전체에 대응할 기회가 있었고, 기사에서도 보듯이 그렇게 했다. 그는 수사에 아주 잘 협조했다.대부분의 사람들이 여기서 말하고 있는 인용구를 언급하면서, 그는 나에게 "아니야, 얼마든지 올려줘. (혼란스러웠으니 그 선은 삭제된 채로, 고마워)"라고 이메일로 보냈는데, 여기서 "그 선"은 인용문을 잘못 읽어서 다시 그에게 알려준 것으로 생각되는 이전의 답변이었다.프람이 대부분의 이메일을 올릴 수 있도록 허락해줬는데 몇 가지 예외가 있어나는 ArbCom에서 이것을 계속해서 그들에게 비밀리에 이메일을 보낼 수 있게 하고 싶다.프람이 다른 웹사이트에서 시도한 것처럼 보이는 또 다른 문제가 있다.나는 프람이 외출했다고 비난하거나 그의 동기에 대해 추측하지 않을 것이다.나는 단지 "The Signpost"에서 우리는 일부러 외출에 가까운 어떤 것에도 연결하지 않는다고 말할 것이다. 그래서 우리는 이야기에 그 링크를 삽입하지 않을 것이다.나에게서 더 많은 이메일을 받을 수 있도록 인내심을 가져주길 바란다.스몰본스(smalltalk) 01:35, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 나는 이것을 ArbCom에 가져가거나 잠자는 것 이외에는 아무것도 하지 않을 것이다.만약 프람이 답장이 없더라도 "그것을 자유롭게 올리라"고 명시적으로 말했다면(분명 그의 반응을 읽으면서 내가 예상한 것은 아니다) 그것은 상황을 다소 변화시킨다는 것을 인정하겠다.그것은 여전히 잘못된 행동이고 당신은 여전히 그것을 당겨야 하지만 만약 Fram이 당신이 그것을 출판하는 것을 반대하지 않는다면 그 문제는 덜 긴급하다.하우쿠르 (대화) 01:56, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[답글]
    • 더 많은 정보가 들어왔기 때문에 이것을 발견한다.프람은 이것에 대한 스몰본스의 설명을 반박한다.아래 내 의견을 참조하십시오.하우쿠르 (대화) 10:00, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 프람이 이 출처에 대한 반박에 그것이 중재 사건의 일부였고, "그에 대한 어떠한 언급도 없이 끝났으며, 관련 행정관은 그의 행동에 대해 훈계를 받았다"고 언급하고 있다는 점에 주목하겠다.이게 무슨 중재 사건인지 알아?조금 푸른 보리 v^_^v [응답]

그가 Gorillawarpare를 차단하고 나를 상대로 한 사건을 한 번 고발한 것을 고려하면, 취약한 편집자들을 대상으로 하는 것은 명백한 거짓이다.그래도 이곳에는 언제나 캐스 리버(토크 · 기여) 01:31, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답] 불평하는 사람들이 있을 것이다.
    • 미안하지만, 나는 이 대화를 피하는 게 아니야. 이메일이 점점 우스꽝스러워지고 있어.나는 이 문제에 답하기 위해 그 기사를 자세히 검토하려고 노력했지만...여기서 누가 무슨 말을 하는지 봐야 한다.응답자들의 답변을 요약해보니 세 번째 인용문은 프람이 취약계층을 타깃으로 삼았다고 한다.그것은 그들이 본 것과 그들이 말한 것이다.나는 그들의 관점에서 그들이 말한 것이 타당하다고 볼 수 있다.대다수가 이렇게 말했다.프람은 기사에서든 내 이메일에서든 자신이 어떤 특정 그룹을 목표로 삼지는 않았다고 말했는데, 사실 (정확히 적절한 단어가 아닌) 최고위급 편집자들이 종종 있다.나는 이것을 보았고 그것은 그의 관점에서 확실히 유효하다.그렇게 말했다(기사 어디 있는지 다시 한 번 확인해 보겠다.어떤 면에서는 Fram의 진술이 정확하지 않다고 생각하지만, 높은 지위 편집자보다 훨씬 더 취약하기 때문에, 순수한 백분율 기준으로는 취약계층이 훨씬 적지만 더 기억에 남는 높은 지위 편집자보다 많을 것이다.우리가 The Signpost의 목소리에 썼던 것 - 나는 그것이 아무것도 아니라고 생각한다, 즉 0. 다시 확인해 볼게.스몰본스(smalltalk) 03:02, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 자, 녹색 상자 끝에 있는 프람의 응답에 있습니다, "우리는 그들의 지위와 상관없이 모든 편집자들의 편집 내용을 면밀히 조사하고, 그들이 얼마나 많은 친구를 가지고 있든 간에, 기꺼이 그들과 관련된 문제들을 지적할 수 있는 관리자가 필요하다.여기에는 정기적인 편집 및 관리 작업이 포함된다.창작물이 자동 제작되든 안 되든 상관하지 않고 누가 창작했든 상관없이 모두 살펴봤다." 기사의 다른 세 곳에서도 분명히 알 수 있는데, 예를 들어 고릴라워페어 차단이다.나는 The Signpost의 목소리에 아무것도 보이지 않는다.스몰본스(smalltalk) 03:14, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 괴롭힘을 느꼈다고 주장하는 사람의 정체를 추측하거나 누구인지를 알고 싶어 하는 사람들이 있는 곳으로 미끄러운 비탈길을 내려가지 말자, 지금쯤 사람들이 깨달았을 것이기 때문에 그것에는 큰 문제가 있다.불만 사항은 Arbcom으로 가져가야 하며, 그 곳에서 일은 안심하고 처리할 수 있다. --Malcomxl5 (대화) 02:19, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

이걸 닫고 ArbCom에서 필요할 때마다 다시 열자고 제안할게.그래야 프람의 이메일을 내게 책임감 있게 처리할 수 있다. 즉 프람이 공개한 이메일을 ArbCom으로 비밀리에 보낼 수 있다.이것은 모든 사람들이 구체적인 답변을 요구하는 개방적인 문제가 아니다.나는 ArbCom이 모든 사람들의 사생활에 대한 우려를 고려할 때 더 조용한 환경이 될 것이라고 확신한다.스몰본스(smalltalk) 03:38, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

The Signpost E-in-C는 Arbcom으로부터 기밀 출처에서 도출된 의견이나 사실들을 게재하고 싶을 때마다 Jail-of-jail-free 카드를 받아야만 하는 것인가?브리 (대화) 04:05, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
@Bri: 아주 좋은 지적을 한다.만약 그것이 사실이라면, en.WP는 그렇게 많은 독재적이고 준민주적인 정권들의 길을 가고 있을 것이다.국기문란 협박에 노출되서 자기 검열을 강요하느니 차라리 싸인포스트 종료를 보는 게 낫겠어.나는 7년 동안 팻말을 위해 글을 썼는데, 그 중 5년 정도는 뉴스와 특보에 바쳐졌다.우리는 익명성에 기초하여만 말할 수 있는 정보원의 인용구를 포함하지 않으려고 노력했다; 그러나 투명성, 공익성, 사생활 사이의 균형에 있어서 우리는 매우 가끔 포함시켰다.때로는 편집장의 통화가 어려울 때도 있지만, 현재 이야기를 둘러싼 상황을 포함한 모든 경우에 있어서 EICs가 올바른 결정을 내렸다고 생각한다(결정을 위해 항상 EIC를 참조했다).내가 보기에, 현재의 사생활-투명성 위기가 그 원인이다.WP는 투명성이 어떤 대가를 치르더라도 승리한다는 강경 이항적 견해와 점차 진화하고 있으며 현재 위기에 직면해 있는 사생활-투명성 위기를 해결하기 위한 ArbCom의 지각은 그 자체로 더욱 심각하다.만약 그렇다면, ArbCom이 매우 공개적이고 매우 노출된 온라인 환경에서 사생활의 필요성을 관리하기 위해 신속하게 행동해야 할 때다.ArbCom은 운전 중에 잠이 든 것 같다.토니(토크) 05:31, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 작가나 그들의 의견에 찬성도 반대도 아니다.나는 살아있는 사람들에 관한 위키백과 정책을 준수하는 것에 찬성한다.내 부분과 의견으로, 나는 위키피디아에 살아 있는 사람들에 대해 말해야 할 것과 말할 수 있는 것에 대해 토론하고 있었을 뿐이다.여기서 그것에 대한 어떤 논평이나 토론도 본 적이 있는지 확실하지 않지만 좀더 자세히 볼게.결정을 내리기 전에 기사를 뽑아야 할지 말지는...는 그것에 반대한다.그 기사는 BLP나 소싱 지침을 위반했거나 위반하지 않았거나 둘 중 하나이다.결국, 나는 여전히 정상적인 것을 넘어서서 어떤 행정 조치가 취해져야 하는지 이해할 수 없다.컨센서스 확인, 참조 확인, 정책 및 가이드라인 확인이것은 프람이나 그들의 죄의식이나 결백에 대한 논의가 되어서는 안 된다.이것은 작가가 살아 있는 사람에 대한 주장을 과시한 것인지에 관한 것이다.내 2센트.그만큼 가치가 있을 것이다.--마크 밀러 (대화) 04:57, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 나의 "ArbCom에서 필요할 때 언제든지 다시 열어"는 이 경우를 가리킨다.누군가는 이 사건을 다시 시작하고 싶어할 것이고 나는 ArbCom이 해야 한다면 그것을 할 장소라고 생각한다.심지어 더 시그너처 포스트의 상태를 검토하기에 좋은 장소일 수도 있다.우리는 약 14년 동안 신문으로서 - 단지 일반적인 수용에 의해서 - 항상 운영해 왔다.그러나 출판 과정의 중단, 이른바 편집 전쟁 같은 문제들이 기한 내에 제기되었다.그런 일로는 수술할 수 없어ArbCom이 우리가 WP를 위반했다고 말하길 원한다면:편집장의 승인을 받아야 하는 출판 절차를 가지고 있는 것을 소유한다면, 그들은 그렇게 할 수 있고 우리는 문을 닫아야 할 것이다.하지만 나는 그들이 그렇게 할 것이라고 생각하지 않는다.만약 그들이 기밀 출처를 이용하는 것이 규칙에 어긋난다고 말하고 싶다면, 그들은 아마 그렇게 할 수 있을 것이다.하지만 다시 말하지만, 나는 그들이 그러지 않을 것이다.아마도 그들은 우리가 학대를 막기 위해 "The Signpost" 내의 절차를 공식화해야 한다고 말할지도 모른다. 나는 그들이 필요로 하는 만큼 형식적이지는 않지만 우리가 이미 그러한 절차를 가지고 있다는 것을 알게 될 것이라고 생각한다.그럼 누군가 우리 보고에 문제가 있을 때마다 재택근거 카드?말도 안돼누군가 5-10년에 한번씩 우리의 절차를 검토해보았나?나는 ArbCom이나 다른 조용한 포럼이 그것을 하기를 원했다면 환영할 것이다.스몰본스(smalltalk) 05:08, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 첫째, 내가 가장 최근의 호를 포함하여 수 년 동안 <시그널 포스트>에 관여하지 않고 쉬쉬해 온 자기 공개였지만, 나는 문제의 기사 작성에 참여하지 않았다.나는 여기서 문제가 위법행위 혐의보다는 정책적 문제로 다뤄져야 한다고 생각한다.내 성향은, Signpost 작품에 대한 익명의 출처는 알려진 출처가 있기 때문에 BLP 정책을 위반하지 않는다는 것이다. 이 경우, Smallbones는 위키피디아가 WP:신뢰할 수 있는 출처라고 생각되는 The Signpost라고 알려진 신문에 그 정보를 보도하고 있다.이것이 WP:원래 연구 방침에 위배된다고 주장할 수는 있겠지만, 나는 우리가 종종 신문이 독창적인 연구를 하기를 기대한다고 생각한다.모든 것을 고려해 볼 때, 나는 익명의 출처를 사용하는 싸인포스트 기사의 작성자가 자신과 출처에 대한 법적 리스크를 개인적으로 고려하는 것이 좋을 것이라는 제한과 함께, BLP 주제에 관한 싸인포스트 기사에 익명의 출처를 사용할 수 있도록 하는 경향이 있다. --Pine (1935) 05:23, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
WP 출처:R.S.: "기술은 사실 확인과 정확성에 대한 평판을 가진 신뢰할 수 있는 제3자의 출판된 출처를 기반으로 해야 한다."이 분쟁은 위키피디아와 WMF와 관련이 있다. 표지판은 제3자의 출처가 아니다.원격으로 하지 않는다.전혀 아니다.조금도 그렇지 않다.그리고 비록 그것이 (그것이 아니였다) 하더라도 나는 그것이 어떤 것에 대해서도 '반복'을 가지고 있다는 증거를 전혀 보지 못한다.그것은 내부 위키백과 웹페이지로, '신문'이 아니다.그것이 WP를 만난다고 주장하기 위한 시도:RS는 말도 안 된다. 31.49.219.102 (대화) 05:37, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
난 이 일을 비난하고 싶진 않지만, 넌 지금 싸인포스트에 대해 꽤 고약한 말을 하고 있는 거야.이제 당신은 믿을만한 소식통 정책을 인용해서 익명의 소식통을 믿으면 안 된다는 입장을 옹호하는 애논이 되셨군요.그것은 네가 말하는 것에 큰 신빙성을 주지 않는다.그래서 누가 그 표지판을 믿나?당시 법무장관 대행에 대해 언급한 월스트리트저널 기사를 참조하십시오.그것은 단지 하나의 암시일 뿐이지만, The Signpost가 우리에 대한 당신의 의견보다 더 많은 신뢰를 가지고 있다고 말하는 것이 타당하다.스몰본(smalltalk) 06:26, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 WP에서 모든 종류의 출처에 대해 일상적으로 말하지 않는 Signpost에 대해 아무 말도 하지 않는다.RSN 또는 기사 토크 페이지.그리고 난 어떤 입장도 옹호하지 않을거야 WP:RS 정책은 일관성 있게 적용되어야 한다.당신이 전혀 다루지 못한 '제3자' 조항을 포함해서 말이다.나의 신뢰도에 대해서는, 익명의 사람으로서(비록 위키백과 정책에 정통한 사람일 뿐), 나는 기사나 간판 포스트에 인용되기를 바라는 것이 아니다.나는 단지 정책이 말하는 것을 지적하고 있을 뿐이다.누구나 스스로 읽을 수 있는 책이지그들은 그것을 검증하기 위해 믿을 만한 정보원으로서 내가 필요하지 않다.그리고 그 방침은 분명하다.이것이 '배터시 비-키퍼 클럽'에 대한 논의였다면, WP에 익숙한 사람은 아무도 없다.RS는 그들이 'BBKC 버즈'로 출판한 웹사이트를 제3의 정보원으로 간주할 것이다.왜냐하면 WSJ, 런던타임스, 미국 대법원에 의해 (전적으로 다른 것에 대해) 인용되었다고 해도 그렇지 않을 것이기 때문이다.그리고 그 안에 익명의 자료를 포함시키는 것을 정당화하기 위해 제3자 정보원으로서 시그너처를 묘사하려는 이러한 시도는 그야말로 비논리적이다.제3자였다면 WP와의 관련성은 없을 것이다.ANI, 그리고 넌 여기서 그걸 변호할 필요 없어.그러나 표지판은 "커뮤니티-서면 및 -편집" [31]이며, 따라서 WP의 소관이 다음과 같다.ANI. 또는 '제3자' 표지판이 WP의 권한 밖이라고 주장하기를 원하는가?ANI? 왜냐하면 그것이 당신이 그것을 믿는다면 취해야 할 논리적인 입장인 것 같기 때문이다. 31.49.219.102 (토크) 07:12, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • "Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker Incorrectly Claims Academic All-American Honors". The Wall Street Journal. 2018. Retrieved February 15, 2019.
나는 이것을 믿어도 전혀 개의치 않는다.그것이 바로 ANI가 (물론 어느 정도)를 위한 것이다.따라서, 여기서의 합의에 전혀 도움이 되지 않는다면, IP가 편집자이고 합의 토론에 대한 기여는 등록된 계정만큼 중요하다는 것을 기억하자.어쨌든, 나는 IP 사용자와 전적으로 동의한다.또한, 아무것도 고약한 것이 없었다.그것은 완전히 꺼져 있었다.만약 이것이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처로서 시그너처 포스트에 대한 논의가 되어야 한다면...좋아. 우리는 사인 포스트가 단순히 살아있는 사람들에 대한 비난에 대해 익명의 출처를 허락할 만큼 충분히 믿을만하다고 말하는 것인가? 아니면 사인 포스트 자체가 어떻게 해서든 자신의 기사에 대한 출처 그 자체라고 말하는 것인가?더 잘 설명해야 할 것 같은데 안 보여.--마크 밀러 (대화) 06:48, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 우리 중 몇몇은 문제의 사건을 꽤 잘 기억하고 있다.프라이버시를 고려해서 얼마나 많은 말을 해야 할지 잘 모르겠지만, 나는 단지 Signpost가 그 기사에서, 그리고 아마도 일반적으로 그 기사에서 인용한 것을 즉시 끌어내야 한다고 말할 뿐이다.프람이 온위키에 대응할 수 없다는 괴롭힘에 대한 비난은 전혀 부적절하다.그 기사는 위키피디아를 Fram에게 완전히 안전하지 않은 공간으로 만들었고, 그 기사로 인해 정체성이 드러나기 쉬운 사람들을 위한 공간으로 만들었다.이것은 일방적인 학대여서 용납되어서는 안 된다.어니씨 (대화) 08:44, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

그 비난에 대해 언급하는 다른 기사가 적어도 하나 있는데, 그 기사는 삭제되어야 하는가?여기에 있는 원칙은 무엇인가? 즉, Signpost가 사용자에 대한 익명문을 게재할 수 없다는 것은?아니면 RS에 게재된 유저에 대한 게시자 진술만이 가능한가?이것은 ANI에게 너무 복잡하다. 왜냐하면 그것은 표지판에 엄청난 (잠재적인) 반향을 가지고 있기 때문이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 08:47, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 윤리적인 기자에게 부탁할 수 있는 최소한의 것은 그들이 이런 익명의 혐의를 출판하기 전에 검증하는 것이다.내가 보기엔 그들은 아직도 그렇게 했다고 주장하지도 않는다.공개적으로 이용 가능한 정보로 볼 때, 그 혐의는 사실이 아닌 것 같다.Fram은 단지 그가 여기서 비난받은 것을 하지 않았다.하우쿠르 (대화) 09:12, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

프람은 이제 스몰본스에게 이 인용문에 대한 자신의 행동을 "뒤집기"라고 표현하며 대응했다.[32] 그가 확언한 바에 의하면 그는 출판된 버전에 대해 프람의 허가를 받았다.그런 관점에서, 나는 그 문제가 긴급하지 않다는 이전의 언급을 철회한다.마지막으로 나는 당신에게 그 기사를 빼내거나 최소한 그 글에서 이 인용구를 빼내 줄 것을 부탁한다.그렇지 않다면 결국 ArbCom으로 가야 할 것 같다.하우쿠르 (대화) 09:12, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

닫기로 이동

여기서 얻을 것은 아무것도 없고 더 따라가야 할 것에 대한 증오와 불만일 뿐이다.이것에 대한 더 이상의 싸움은 충분히 상처받은 지역사회를 더 아프게 할 뿐이다.나는 이것을 "The Signpost" 부분에서 끔찍한 움직임으로 볼 수 있지만, 우리는 단지 불에 휘발유를 붓고 있을 뿐이다.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, 이름 변경 09:01, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]

  • 일단 그 기사가 뽑히면 이 토론을 지지하라.여기에는 적절하기엔 부정적인 측면이 너무 많다.어니씨(대화) 09:22, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    여기서 덧붙이자면 "나는 그가 위키피디아에서 여성 편집자들에게 한 짓을 상상만 할 수 있다"는 인용문은 프람에 대한 분명하고 진실한 괴롭힘이며 즉시 제거되어야 한다.어니씨(대화) 09:49, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 기사를 먼저 끄집어내거나 ArbCom/T&S로 에스컬레이션한 다음 이야기합시다.성희롱 혐의는 절대 공개되지 않아야 하며, 스몰본스는 그러한 증거를 제공하지 않았다.익명성이 정말로 우려되는 경우 스몰본스의 소스는 ArbCom 또는 T&S로 이메일을 보낼 수 있다.그러나 이러한 주장을 철회하는 것은 BLP 위반이자 일종의 괴롭힘이다.말하자면, Fram은 소스가 이야기하고 있는 사건들이 ArbCom 페이지에서 일어났고, 리비데이션되지 않았다고 주장하지만, 지금까지 나는 그것을 찾을 수 없다. 왜냐하면 나는 고소인이 누구인지, 웹사이트가 무엇인지 전혀 모르기 때문이다. 그리고 나는 그것이 Arb/MONGO라고 생각하지 않는다.프람(혹은 그가 언급하는 사건에 대해 더 잘 알고 있는 사람)은 최소한 사례명을 제공할 필요가 있다(만약 그것이 실제로 여전히 보이는 경우).조금 푸른 보리 v^_^v 09:32, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 최근 몇 주간의 사건들로 나는 종말론이 반드시 우리에게 닥칠 것이라는 결론을 내렸다.그렇지 않다면 빨리 왔으면 좋겠다.이건 다 무리야.EEng 09:51, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[답글]
  • 위반 비트를 당기고 ArbCom(ArbCom)으로 에스컬레이션하여 Haukur당, 익명 클레임이 확인되었는지 확인하십시오.사생활에 대한 우려와 함께, 스몰본스는 ArbCom에 대해 괜찮다. 우리 모두 어두운 곳에 있으니, 그곳으로 가져가라. 스타쉽.페인트(토크) 09:58, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • (갈등 편집) 이게 불에 탄 가솔린이라면 태워버려.WP:BLP는 사이트 전체에서 완전히 정지한다.그리고 수년 동안 이것은 "우리는 명예훼손으로 고소당하고 싶지 않다"는 기준 이상으로 인정되어 왔다. (특히 WMF는 어쨌든 CDA 면책특권을 주장할 것이다. 압드 소송에서 그들의 소송은 cf. 그들의 소송은 cf.이것은 옳은 일을 하고 규칙을 따르는 것이다.이 문제에 관해서는 실용주의적인 "당신의 전투를 선택하라"는 여지가 없다.—/Mendaliv//Δ's 10:00, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]

지금 Arbcom에서

Arbcom에서 사례 요청이 시작되었으므로 지금 종료할 수 있음 - 여기를 참조하십시오.어니씨(대화) 11시, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2600:8801:2C80:5C:/64

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

상당히 문제적인 편집 - 항법 항목과 위키링크의 제거 - 반달리즘과는 거리가 멀다.는 사용자와의 접촉을 설정하지 못했다.다른 사람에게 행운을 빈다.Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:41, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답하라]

  • 나는 72시간 동안 그 범위를 차단했다.Sasquatch t c 10:49, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자 편집기 45671

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

편집자의 편집이 반달리즘에 가까운 것처럼 보이기 때문에 AIV에서 또는 여기서 이렇게 해야 할지 모르겠지만, 어쨌든, 이 편집자는 많은 페이지를 편집하면서 설명 없이 내용을 삭제해 왔다. 때로는 자료 출처를 찾을 때 [33][34][35], 때로는 자료 출처를 찾을 때 [36][37], 보관된 자료 [38][39]를 삭제한다고 주장하면서, 아무 상관도 없다.출처 [40][41][42][43] (전혀 다른 출처에 추가된 출처, 이러한 출처가 많음), 관련 없는 출처[44] 및 중복 출처[45][46], 불분명한[47] 등)와 무관한 출처를 가진 비소싱된 내용.100여 건을 확인한 결과 60여 건을 수정했는데, 다시 한 번 확인할 마음이 있는지 없는지 더 편집하고 있다.Hzh (토크) 00:58, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC) [응답하라]

아니면 아마도 그들의 손가락은 피곤할 뿐이다.그들은 무응답으로 한 번 이상 경고를 받았다.나는 그들이 카피비오에 대한 이해를 멈추고 암시하는 것을 제공하는데 동의한다면 그들은 차단되지 않을 수 있다.DLOhcierkim(대화), 관리자, 이름 변경 01:19, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[답글]

잘못된 스레드에 게시됨.죄송합니다, 여러분.편집자 45671을 여기에 초대했는데, 그들이 소싱된 자료를 삭제한 것 같기 때문이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 02:49, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
아직 체크 유저가 있어서 다행이야.DLOhcierkim (대화) 08:27, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

IP는 포럼-토크 기사 주제를 반복적으로 복원하고 개인적인 감정을 분출한다.

IP는 WP를 위반하여 포럼-토크 폄하 기사 주제를 반복적으로 복원하고 개인적인 감정을 분출한다.NOTFORUM 및 WP:TALKNO. 논평에는 "록프레스의 거물은 비열했다", "아주 소견있는 작가, 그리고 그것이 보여준다", "그의 신문과 잡지 리뷰는 그저 파블럼에 불과했다" 등이 포함되어 있는데, 모두 "음악가들에 의해 비난 받았다"라는 제목의 토크 페이지 머리글 아래에 있다.Dan56 (대화) 22:00, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]

디프스

IP의 토크 페이지

  • 댓글을 달다.IP가 삭제한 주석도 복원하셨습니다.WP별:삭제된 편집자는 자신의 토크 페이지에서 경고를 제거할 수 있으며(이 경고가 명명된 계정인지 IP인지는 중요하지 않음), 다른 편집자는 매우 구체적인 상황에서만 해당 경고 메시지를 복원할 수 있도록 되어 있다.IP는 또 이들이 호주처럼 오즈에 살 때 행정관이었다고 전했다.그들은 지금 행정관이라고 주장하지 않았고, 따라서 그들의 지위에 대한 잘못된 표현은 없다.WP 유지:TALKNOWP:NOTAFORUM을 염두에 두고 나는 그들이 기사 토크를 비누로 사용하고 있다는 당신의 평가에 동의하지 않는다... 아마도 그들은 그들의 표현에 있어서 다소 무례한 것일 것이다. 그러나 나에게 그들은 기사 자체의 출처와 결론에 대해 논의하려고 시도하고 있다......기사의 개선을 목표로 하는 것 같다.셰어링크 (대화) 22:22, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
그들은 어떤 출처도 논의하려 하지 않고 있다; 그들은 심지어 한 출처도 어디서 논의했는가?그들은 자신이 문제 삼은 진술조차 제대로 인용할 수 없었다.("표준 참조"는 기사 어디에도 존재하지 않는다) Dan56 (대화) 22:36, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
부적절하고 부적절한 발언 ([53]) Dan56 (대화) 22:39, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
다른 편집자의 행동과 상관없이, 그들의 논평 중 주목할 만한 부분은 분명히 WP이다.TPO(명백하게 X는 [여기에 선택한 단어 삽입]) 유형의 공격이 아닌 경우 - 내가 보기에 "X는 매우 의견 있는 작성자였다"는 WP는 아닌 것 같다.PA. 107.190.33.254 (대화) 13:40, 2019년 6월 24일 (UTC)[응답]
다른 편집자가 맞다면?2601:1C0:6D00:845:E5A0:4CB9:5B55:89AE (대화) 04:48, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
물론 편집자의 말이 옳다.음악을 복습하기 위해 많은 의견을 갖는 것이 직업인 어떤 종류의 평론가나 음악 평론가는 의견이 모아지지 않을 것인가?요점은 WP:포럼은 "기사 대화 페이지는 기사 개선 방법을 논의하기 위해 존재하는 것일 뿐이며, 기사 주제에 대한 일반적인 논의를 위한 것도 아니며, 지침이나 기술 지원을 받기 위한 헬프 데스크도 아니다"라고 말한다.토크 페이지에 적합하지 않은 자료는 토크 페이지 지침에 따라 삭제될 수 있다."기사 주제에 대한 편집자의 개인적인 감정과 암시는 기사를 어떻게 개선할 것인가에 대한 논의가 아니었다.다시 한 번 스펠링을 해드렸으니 알겠나?Dan56 (대화) 16:51, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
Christgau에 관한 이와 같은 토크 페이지 논평[54]은 BLP 위반이므로 반드시 삭제되어야 한다.♟♙ (대화) 14:57, 2019년 6월 27일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 이런 상황에서 가장 좋은 것은 "고기를 가져가고 뼈를 남겨두는 것"이라고 생각한다.기사의 토크 페이지에서 IP 이용자가 시작한 논의는 대부분 본인만 자신의 의견을 진술하는 것이 대부분이지만, '기사의 '표준참고문'은 실제로 백업될 수 없다'는 짤막하게 진술하기도 한다.그게 정확히 무슨 뜻인지 잘 모르겠다; '표준'이라는 단어를 찾으려고 기사를 검색하는 것은 그가 말하는 것에 가까운 어떤 의미와 함께 돌아오지 않는다...여기에서 관련된 편집자 중 그 진술이 언급하는 것을 알고 있는 사람이 있다면, IP 사용자의 의견과 진술에만 응답하고, 나머지는 무시하고 당신의 답변에서 그것을 인정하지 마십시오.만약 내가 인용한 그 성명에서 사용자가 언급하고 있는 것을 모른다면, 단지 응답하고 IP 사용자에게 정중하게 설명을 요청하라.다시 말하지만, 당신의 답변에서 나머지 코멘트를 무시하고 인정하지 마십시오.고기는 가져가고 뼈는 남겨둬라.간단해...;-) ~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 2019년 6월 29일 14:50 (UTC)[응답]

최근 양말 사용으로 차단된 사용자 Lovslif에 의해 Pallava Jinger 페이지에 POV 추진

안녕.

나는 LovSLIF (토크 · 기여)가 팔라바 왕조 기사 편집 전쟁을 하고 있다는 것을 알려드리고 싶다.그는 대체 계정 RViN341(대화 · 기여)을 사용하여 최근 팔라바 대화 페이지의 컨텐츠 관련 토론에서 자신을 지지했다[55].RViN341(토크 · 기여)은 그의 양말인 것으로 밝혀졌고, 로브슬리프는 이러한 이유로 차단되었다[56].그는 지금 이 블록에서 돌아와 편집 전쟁과 POV에 종사하고 있으며, 같은 기사를 밀고 있다.따라서 이 문제에 대한 관리자 개입을 요청하십시오.또한, 보통 다른 사용자들은 무기한으로 차단되는데, 왜 그는 일주일짜리 블록으로 방해를 받았을까?닛타위노다 (대화) 18:01, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]

양말 문제에 관해서만, 양말은 무기한으로 막힌다.단, 양말마스터는 특히 초범 후 다양한 기간(최대 무기한) 동안 차단된다.--Bb23 (대화) 18:16, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)[응답]
친애하는 Bb23에게,

나는 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pallava_dynasty#Origins_section에서 진행중인 논의를 진행하기를 요청한다.이미 논의가 진행 중일 때, 사용자 니타위노다(Nittawinoda)는 동일한 분쟁 지역에 POV 콘텐츠를 추가하려고 시도했다.
필자의 유일한 관심사는 콘텐츠 추가가 아니라 NPOV여야 한다는 점이며 사용자는 보조 논문에 근거하여 POV를 추진하려 하고 있으며 이는 진행자가 토크 페이지에서 결론을 내린 내용에 반하는 것이다.
또한 사용자는 가장 선호하는 논문의 위치를 변경하기 위해 아래쪽에 같은 것을 배치했다.
그래서 나는 그에게 먼저 토론을 끝내라고 부탁했었다.
나는 심지어 그가 순수하게 POV에 추가한 '어원 부분'을 되돌리지도 않았다.
이 통지는 현재 진행 중인 논의를 억제하기 위해 사용자가 제기한 것이다.

닛타위노다는 특정 기간 동안만 인신공격으로 차단되었다.

또한 아래 문의 사항에 대해서도 명확히 해 주시길 부탁드린다.나는 싱가포르에서 공유 IP를 사용한다.내건물 전체가 같은 IP로 작동해.이런 경우에 어떻게 다른 사용자가 동일한 IP에 있는 것을 SOCK이라고 할 수 있는가?내가 그런 일에 관여하지 않았는데, 내가 어떻게 그런 비난을 받아들일 수 있겠는가?내가 증명하기 위해 무엇을 할 수 있을까? LovSLIF (대화) 18:49, 2019년 6월 26일 (UTC)에 의해 [응답]

  • @NittawinodaLovSLIF: Bb23마지막으로 이 주제가 10일 전에 여기 있었다는 것을 지적했듯이, 관련된 편집자들 중 아무도 깨끗한 손을 가지고 있지 않다.그러므로 서로 토론에서 탈락시키기 위해 그 문제의 역사를 무력화시키는 대신, 출처/내용에 초점을 맞추는 대신에, Kautilya3가 기사 토크 페이지에서 제공하는 지침을 따르고, 제발 간결하게 당신의 게시물의 길이와 수를 제한하라(더 구체적인 조언은 각각의 토크 페이지를 참조하라).현재 배틀그라운드WP의 경우:IDHT-진행은 계속되며, 기사 제한이나 주제 금지가 필요할 것 같다.
이 섹션이 보관되기 전에 이전에 관련된 리즈를 핑킹하여 추가할 것이 있는지 확인하십시오.아베케다레 (대화) 13:37, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
안녕 Abecedare , Kautilya3 팔라바스의 토크 페이지에서 진행되고 있는 논의를 우리가 알고 있는 동안 Nittawinoda는 소싱된 내용을 제거함으로써 원본 부분의 내용을 다시 변경했다.만약 그가 그의 의지와 같은 것을 바꾼다면, 대화 페이지에서 중용의 도움을 받아 같은 것을 토론하는 데 있어 핵심 요점은 무엇인가?Kautilya3는 이미 초안을 마련하겠다고 언급했고, 그 동안 이러한 종류의 행동은 LovSLIF (대화) 04:13, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]에 의해 이성적으로 들리지 않는다.
@Kautilya3Abecedare:, 앞에서 언급했듯이 [57] K를 제거했다.진행자 Kautilya3 (토크 · 기여) 후 R Subramanian은 그것을 신뢰할 수 없다고 말했다[58].이제 다른 사용자가 내 변경사항을 되돌리고 이 신뢰할 수 없는 소스를 다시 삽입했다[59].이 행동에 대해 어떻게 생각하십니까?닛타위노다 (토크) 15:06, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

볼보 엔진을 좋아하는 IP

일련의 Schleswig-Holstein 기반 IP가 Volvo Modular 엔진Volvo Engine Architecture소유권을 획득했다.이 석벽 편집기, 인용 토크 페이지, Volvo Modular, Volvo Engine Architecture와 6개월 또는 7개월 동안 의사소통을 시도하자, 그들은 모든 것을 그들의 방식대로 할 것을 주장한다.지금까지 5명의 다른 편집자는 보관 날짜와 액세스 날짜를 모두 사용하는 것이 중복된다는 데 동의했다(한 명의 평가 편집자는 더 나은 보관 페이지가 발견될 수 있는 경우 두 페이지를 모두 갖는 것이 유용하다고 제안했는데, 이는 동시에 날짜가 추가되고 보관 버전이 인용문으로 사용되는 경우와는 다르다).이 페이지들의 참고문헌들은 이미 읽기 어려우며, 이 중복된 날짜들의 집합으로는 그야말로 엉망진창이다.다른 스타일의 염려도 있지만, 지금까지 나는 이 편집자가 대화에 순응할 수 있다는 증거를 본 적이 없다.나는 이 편집자가 의사소통을 시작하게 하기 위해 이 페이지들에 최소한 임시 IP 블록을 요청하고 싶다. 미스터 초퍼스 ✎ 15:18, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

2a04:4540:900:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0/45를 업무방해로 1년간 차단했다.그들은 실제로 2018년 4월부터 해오고 있다.레인지 블록의 폭에도 불구하고, 부수적인 피해는 보이지 않는다.--Bbb23 (대화) 15:48, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워. 그들이 소통하기 시작했으면 좋겠어. 미스터 초퍼스 ✎ 15:55, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

이 그리스 IP와 동일한 동기로 계정 또는 IP 통합

2019년 6월 13일 이후

  • 2a02:214C:801e:eC00:713d:57bc:f319:c289
  • 2a02:214c:801e:ec00:5ca4:5e99:1a6e:961c
  • 2a02:214c:801e:ec00:9438:e8c6:6eba:e6d3
  • 2a02:214c:8272:d00:64d0:c532:2eca:aac0
이러한 움직임은 마오쩌둥 정치로부터 나라를 멀어지게 하려는 더 큰 노력의 일환으로 이루어졌다.구체적으로 덩을 비롯한 CPC 지도부는 마오쩌둥처럼 다른 지도자가 당 위에 오르는 것을 막고자 했다. 

이 단락에서 끈기 있게, 마오쩌둥에 대해 부정적인 이야기를 하는 단락이다.이 단락을 반복해서 삭제한다.

2019년 6월 19일 이후

  • 2a02:214c:801e:ec00:713d:57bc:f319:c289
  • 2a02:214c:801e:ec00:5ca4:5e99:1a6e:961c
  • 2a02:214c:801e:4f00:9c7a:3f72:e724:d9c2
  • 2a02:214c:824f:800:7883:26b1:54a4:dd1b
비록 그러한 행동은 마오쩌둥에 의해 스스로 제재되었지만, 그럼에도 불구하고 관련된 공산주의 요원들과 간부들은 문화 혁명 기간 동안 수십 년 후에 박해를 받았다.리는 1962년에 죽었기 때문에 그런 운명을 면했을지도 모른다. 

이 단락에서 끈기 있게, 마오쩌둥에 대해 부정적인 이야기를 하는 단락이다.이 단락을 반복해서 삭제한다.

분석

예비 분석에 따르면 이 IP의 사용자들은 마오쩌둥의 극도의 찬사를 받아야 하며 중국의 군사 정보에 관심을 가져야 하며, 중국 위키백과 사용자일 수도 있다.

기타 소견

편집 경향이 뚜렷하기 때문에 IP 범위는 2a02:214C:801e:eC00:713d:57bc:f319:c289/38. 내몽골에서는 WP에 의해 다음과 같이 말했다.코먼나메. 이 나라의 이름은 "메인랜드 차이나"가 아닌 "중화인민공화국"이며, 여기 위키백과에서 언급하는 것을 포함하여. 2a02:214c:824f:800:7de5:3f55:e747:2ea6은 이 문제를 위해 편집 전쟁을 일으킨다.왕둥싱(王東興)과 중난하이(中南海)에서는 중국어를 영어로 바로 번역하고, 가디언 부고, 중국 위키(中國위키)에서 바이오를 확장하고, 소스를 추가했다고 한다.나는 이 그리스 IP 범위가 남용되고 있거나 한동안 관찰될 필요가 있다고 생각한다.61.224.19.112 (대화) 13:48, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

PS:그냥 보고 녹음하고 댓글 달았는데 더 이상 증거가 없어 추가 의견 제시를 거부했다. 61.224.19.112 (대화) 13:48, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

이게 뭐야?슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:11, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
@Slattersteven: (위)는 처음에 AIV에 게재되었는데, POV 기울기로 중국 관련 기사를 다시 쓰려는 공동 노력의 IP 몇 개를 주장하였다.나는 그들에게 ANI가 이 문제를 논의하기 위한 수단 중 하나라고 조언했다.— 마일 (대화) 15:21, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
건배.슬래터스트븐 (대화) 15:30, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 이것을 다른 사람들에게 설명하도록 도와줘서 고마워.다음엔 탈출해야죠.최근 홍콩에서 일어난 정치 사건은 나를 끔찍하게 만들었다.나는 그가 통제하고 싶은 페이지를 감시하기 위해 많은 에너지를 소비한다는 것을 알았다.이것은 내가 그의 다음 목표라는 것을 걱정하게 만든다.@El C:그 IP 범위에 문제가 있을 수 있다는 것만 알려주고 싶다.그러나 분자생물학에서는 동일인인지 확실하지 않다.--61.224.19.112 (대화) 15:44, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
또한 그들은 내가 제안한 또 다른 길인 RFPP에서도 보고했다.그들이 거기에 올린 글을 보면, 나는 그들이 개별적인 기사 보호 외에 레인지 블록을 요구하고 있다고 생각한다.나는 레인지 블록을 하지 않고, 아시아에서의 최근 사건들에 대해서는 잘 모르지만, 이 편집자는 POV의 더 크고 번지는 이슈로 보이는 것에 대해 우리에게 경고하려고 하는 것 같다. — 마일 (대화) 15:53, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답하라]
문제는 우리에게 차이점이 없었기 때문에 이러한 편집이 무엇인지 알 수 없다는 것이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:56, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 이 IPv6 사용자 대 또 다른 사용자들을 우연히 만나 지아춘왕, 천수동, 리 케농, 장딩청, 저스트 전쟁 이론 등 여러 기사에 걸쳐 전쟁을 편집했다.나는 분쟁과 편집 전쟁에 관련된 모든 IP 주소를 차단했다.나는 분쟁과 내용 자체에 대해 정확히 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 깊이 파고들지 않았지만, 일어나고 있는 파괴적인 편집의 큰 규모와 수많은 기사들을 가로지르기 위해 조치를 취해야 했다.두 사용자 모두 뒤와 네 번째 회전에 관여하고 있다는 점에서 두 사용자 모두를 차단할 필요가 있다는 생각이 들었다.~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 23:58, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

AFD & 코멘트

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이건 내가 평소에 타던 로데오가 아니니까, 내가 잘못 왔더라도 용서해 줘.관리자가 여기서 계속 주시하면서 이 편집본과 특별히 이후에 나온 편집본을 생각해 볼 수 있을까?그들은 기분이 언짢아 보인다.고마워요.4번째 순서 = λ= 16:08, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

  • Revdled, 추가 조치가 필요한지 조사.보고해줘서 고마워.ST47 (대화) 16:16, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 이전 관리자:폴 벤자민 오스틴은 [미란다 보먼]을 사칭한 것을 인정했기 때문에, 나는 더 이상의 조치가 필요하다는 데에는 의심의 여지가 없다고 말하고 싶다.옵션 16 (토크) 16:45, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 내가 실수를 해서 미안하다.많은 사람들이 연예인이나 배우인 척 한다.내가 그들 중 하나가 되지 말았어야 했다.폴 벤자민 오스틴 (토크) 16:50, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:오스트리안프리덤

나 지금 이동 중이야.다른 관리자가 친절하게 이 편집자의 최근 기고를 검토하고 요약을 편집하여 적절한 조치를 취하시겠습니까?고마워, 뉴욕브래드 (토크) 00:22, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

NOTHERE로 차단됨, 공격 사용자 페이지 삭제됨.다양한 다른 기고문들은 revdel, 특히 요약문 편집이 필요할지도 모르지만, 나는 지금 잠자리에 드는 길이다.비쇼넨톡 00:29, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[답답하다]
제초만이 편집 요약을 거의 다 한 것 같아, 내가 몇 개 삭제했어.마지막 1000개 편집한 내용을 돌아보니 최근 500개에서 발견된 모든 문제들이었습니다.S 필브릭(토크) 02:00, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
는 방금 그들이 자부카 기사에 덧붙인 기괴한 잡동사니들을 삭제했다.그들의 편집은 더 깊은 검토가 필요하다.아베케다레 (대화) 05:28, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

제시라페 문제

줄리아 살라자르 위키피디아 페이지에 몇 가지 사소한 편집을 했는데 제시라페가 계속 삭제한다.그의 토크 페이지를 보면 다른 사람의 작품을 삭제하는 버릇이 있고 그에 대한 비판도 많이 받은 것이 분명하다.나는 이 사람과 논쟁할 생각은 없지만, 그가 다른 사용자들을 삭제하거나 괴롭히는 것을 그만두면 고맙겠다.자신의 기여가 즉각 삭제되고, 그 과정에서 개인적으로 모욕당할 것을 우려해 기부할 가능성이 적은 환경을 조성한다.나의 편집은 이미 그 페이지에 인용된 평판이 좋은 출처에서 직접 나왔고, 내가 한 일은 그 출처를 좀 더 완전하게 만들기 위해 살을 빼는 것뿐이었다.나는 편향되거나 주관적인 정보를 삭제하면 기쁘지만, 이것은 단순히 그렇지 않다.ODDoom99 (대화) 19:37, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

당신은 대담하고, 되돌리고, 토론하는 주기를 따라야 한다. 왜냐하면 당신이 기사에 포함되길 원하는 편집에 대한 합의를 얻을 책임이 있기 때문이다.고마워요.El_C 19:40, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
@ODdoom99: (충돌 편집) 빠른 눈초리로 당신이 제대로 소싱되지 않았거나 소싱되지 않은 음성 BLP를 추가해 왔음을 알 수 있다.이걸 멈춰야 할 것 같아.나는 네가 질투를 하고 있다고 생각한다.여기에 게시하면 정밀 조사를 받을 수 있다는 점을 유의하십시오.사용자에게 필요한 대로 알리지 않았으므로 주의하십시오.ANI를 제외하고 이 분쟁을 해결하기 위한 당신의 노력이 보이지 않는다는 것을 알아 두십시오.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, renamer 19:43, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]
나는 WP에 관한 위반 가능성 때문에 기사를 보호했다.BLPCRY. El_C 19:45, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
중요한 것은 다음과 같다.나는 이 개인을 2월과 오늘에 다시 전향시켰다.그 후, 같은 불가해한 기고문에 대한 그들의 재적용은 다른 두 명의 편집자에 의해 취소되었다.내가 이 주장에 대해 전혀 언급조차 하지 않는 이유는 바로 이 페이지에서 또 다른 논의에 더 민감하기 때문이며, 24.47.152.65가 나를 괴롭혔다는 이유로 차단될 것을 예상하는 수많은 게시물을 만들었기 때문에 아마도 이 (다른 것 중) 계정을 부활시켜 그 전에 포스트 히스토리를 구축하기 시작할 것이다.(31시간 동안) 차단되었다.제시라페 (대화) 19:48, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
OP의 편집 예시 여기 1, 여기 2, 여기 3 다른 것도 있지만, 당신은 감각을 얻을 수 있다.적어도 OP는 전쟁을 편집해 왔고, 도전을 받은 네거티브 BLP를 재삽입해 왔으며, 주제를 질식시키고 싶다는 냉소적 해석도 나온다.DLOhcierkim (talk), admin, renamer 19:55, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

나의 편집 이력은 전혀 상관없다.중요한 것은 내가 편집한 내용의 정확성인데, 내가 쓴 어떤 내용의 진실성에 대해서도 아직 단 한 번의 도전도 찾지 못했다.나는 부당하게 삭제된 정보를 다시 삽입했다.정보는 그 주제에 대해 불충분하게 아첨해서가 아니라 거짓이거나 모욕적인 경우에만 삭제되어야 한다.위키백과 기사의 어조가 후보에 대한 대중의 인식과 눈에 띄게 대립하고 있는 것 같은데, 나는 그것을 바로잡을 필요가 있다고 생각했다.그것을 "미소"로 특징짓는 것은 불합리하다. ODdoom99 (대화 기여) 20:02, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]에 의해 추가된 사전 서명되지 않은 논평

보아하니, 모든 사람이 너의 해석에 동의하는 것은 아니다.이제 다시 추가하기 전에 도전된 자료에 대한 합의를 얻어야 한다.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, 20:10, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]
당신의 유일한 노력 분야는 이 사람에 대한 부정적인 편집을 추가하는 것이기 때문에, 당신의 편집은 관련된 이다.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, renamer 20:12, 2019년 7월 1일(UTC)[응답]
나는 아직 내가 쓴 어떤 글의 진실성에 대한하나의 도전도 찾지 못했다 - 편집하고 있는 기사의 토크 페이지를 보셨습니까?이와 유사한 내용을 추가하려는 여러 가지 다른 시도가 있었던 것으로 보이며, 이는 긴 시간 동안 논의되어 왔다.signed, 로스길 20:18, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
오, 하지만 ODDoom99, 너의 편집 이력이 확실히 관심있어.당신은 여기서 당신과 다른 편집자 사이의 분쟁에 대해 보고서를 만들 수 있다고 생각하셨나요? 관리자들에게 당신의 편집은 무시하면서 그의 편집을 고려해 보라고 요청하셨나요?정말?제임스BWatson (대화) 22:05, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 ANI 실에서 동의하지 않는 사람들을 비방하는 것이 이제는 너무 흔해서 눈에 띄지 않을 것이라고 생각하지만, 나는 관습 앞에서 첫 단락에서 질식하는 것에 화를 내려고 한다.DLOhcierkim(토크), admin, renamer 00:04, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[응답]

로그인한 사용자의 자동 잠금이 이 IP 주소에서 편집되지 않도록 24.47.152.65를 과감하게 다시 잠금.만약 당신이 이것을 부당하다고 생각한다면 얼마든지 취소하십시오.DLOhcierkim (talk), admin, renameer 00:16, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[응답]

Ineedtostoppforgeting 및 운영 중단 편집

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

INEdtostopforgeting (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

이 사용자가 편집한 내용을 누가 좀 봐 주시겠습니까?최근 쿠릴열도(일본 이외에는 모든 나라가 국제적으로 인정하는 러시아의 일부분) 기사에 관심을 갖고 기사 명칭을 일본식 이름()으로 바꾸고 러시아식 이름 예제를 없애기 시작했을 때 주목받았다.그들은 이것을 십여 개의 기사로 했다.내 토크 페이지에 대한 토론에서 사용자 토크:임블란터#쿠릴열도 관련 기사에서 새로 편집된 편집자의 의심스러운 편집은, 편집에 문제가 없고, 내가 왜 모든 것을 되돌렸는지 이해가 안 된다고 했는데, 내가 상세한 설명을 해 주고 나서도, 편집은 그만하고, 나는 그대로 두기로 했다.오늘, 나는 그들이 전혀 관련이 없는 주제에 대해 칼튼과 편집전을 벌이고 있다는 것을 알아차렸다.예를 들어, 여기서(두 번째 되돌림) 그들은 소싱된 정보를 추가하고 소싱되지 않은 정보를 제거했다고 주장하지만, 상황은 정반대인 반면, 건축가의 이름은 기사에 있고 소싱되고, 계약자 이름은 기사에 어디에도 없다.이용자의 기여도를 보면, 이것은 고립된 경우가 아니라는 것을 알 수 있다.내가 막았을 텐데, 일주일 전 거래소 때문에 내가 관여했다고 생각해.고마워.---ymblanter (대화) 09:44, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

난 말 그대로 네가 이걸 만들기 몇 분 전에 소스를 추가했어.또 근거 없는 비난을 하기 전에 한번 살펴보는 게 어때?Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 09:50, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

실로 여기저기서 보여준 행동이 편집-전쟁과 파괴적 편집과 더불어 블록의 또 다른 근거라는 것을 언급하는 것을 까먹었다.--Ymblanter (토크) 09:54, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
그래서 당신은 이 섹션을 만들기 전에 내가 소스를 추가했다는 것에 대해 내가 한 말을 쉽게 무시하게 될 거야.좋아, 그럼.결국 '권위'를 가진 사람은 너야.지금 내가 이런 말을 하는 걸 막을 거야?Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 09:59, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
그 방에 있는 코끼리는 당신이 기사에서 소싱된 정보를 제거하고 아이오트 제거에 대해 편집-경고를 했다는 것이다.여러 기사에서 반복적으로.--Ymblanter (대화) 10:01, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 당신은 실제로 정보 제거에 대한 경고로서 대응으로 편집-경고했다.디프가 더 필요한 사람이 있다면 디플을 더 배치할 수 있지만, 사용자 기여도를 보면 꽤 확실하다.--Ymblanter (토크) 10:03, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
아직도 쿠릴열도 기사를 읽고 있다면, 그곳의 정보원은 이 섬들에 대한 일본어 번역본을 가지고 있었고, 나는 단지 그것을 반영하고 있었을 뿐이다.당신은 그것에 대해 나를 '편집 전쟁'이라고 비난했고, 나는 당신이 그것을 다시 되돌릴 것이기 때문에 더 이상 신경 쓰지 않기로 결정했다.자, 당신은 모든 사실을 보지 않고 관련 없는 기사에 대해 이 부분을 만들고 있으며, 건축가의 이름에 대한 출처가 자신의 이름조차 보이지 않는 관련 없는 죽은 페이지(출처를 직접 확인)에 연결됨에도 불구하고, 나를 다시 '출처 제거'로 고발하기로 결정했다.출처가 있음에도 불구하고 '지금 여기 그 기사'에서 계약업체 이름을 찾을 수 없다고 하셨잖아요.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 10:16, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
롯폰기 힐스 타워에서 편집한 걸 보고 여기 온 거야 내 감시 목록에 있는 거 말이야출처가 그 주장을 뒷받침하지 않기 때문에 나는 방금 그 기사에 대한 그들의 편집을 되돌렸다.모든 출처가 보여주는 것은 그 회사가 자신들이 그 일을 했다고 주장하는 것이다.출처에는 근거가 없고, 1차 출처는 믿을 수 없고, 출처는 자신들이 주계약자였다고 주장조차 하지 않는다.그들은 출처가 제공하는 모든 증거를 위해 어떤 문들에 대한 경첩을 설계했을지도 모른다.그래서 나는 그것을 적당한 출처가 아닌 것으로 되돌렸다.캔터베리 테일톡 11시 39분, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇게 될 거라면 건축가의 출처는 어떨까.그게 적절한 출처라는 거야?Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 11:44, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
참고문헌은 이미 기사에 나와 있었으므로 방금 그 필드에 링크를 추가했다.캔터베리 테일톡 12시 5분, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
불행하게도 모든 사람들이 차이를 확인할 수 있음에도 불구하고 당신은 사실을 잘못 전달하는 것이다.일본의 이름은 이미 몇 년 전에 이 기사에 실려 있었다.방금 러시아 이름을 지우고 일본 이름으로 기사를 옮겼잖아.이것은 순전히 혼란이다. 심지어 이러한 편집의 일부도 유용하지 않았다.이를 이해하지 못할 경우 WP에 의해 차단되어야 한다.CIR. 그렇다면 파괴적 편집이 차단되어야 한다.--Ymblanter (대화) 10:22, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

확실히 문제가 있는 편집들 — 나는 무작위로 기여를 클릭했고 이것을 얻었다.미안, 인에드토스톱 포기는 자신감을 불어넣지 못하는데 전반적으로 편집된 내용을 대표한다면 참을 수 없다.El_C 10:37, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

주권국가의 해군이 국가원수에 대한 충성을 가질 것이 꽤 분명해 보였다고 생각했고, 이것중국, 말레이시아, 태국, 인도네시아와 같은 다른 나라들을 위해 보여진다.그렇다면 군부대 인포박스에서 '알레르기'가 무슨 의미가 있겠는가.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 10:47, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
중국공산당은 PRC의 국가원수가 아니다.어쨌든, 이것은 여기서 너에게 설명되었다.El_C 10:55, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
그래, 그리고 나는 그 일을 쉬게 하고 되돌리지 않았다.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 10:57, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
요점은 결국 일을 쉬게 놔두더라도 돌이킬 수 없을 만큼 빠르다는 것이다.이것은 때때로 불합리한 정도가 된다.El_C 11:02, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
'복귀가 너무 빠르다'는 이유로 사용자를 차단할 경우 위키백과 사용자 대다수가 차단된다.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 11:11, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
당신은 전에 여러 번 편집과 편집-전쟁을 방해한다는 경고를 받았으니, 이제 당신이 해야 할 시간이다.다른 이용자는 기다릴 수 있다.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:21, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답
있잖아, 내가 아무리 방어하려고 해도 넌 분명히 네 의견이나 판단을 바꾸지 않을 거야그것은 시간과 노력의 가치가 없다.나를 그렇게 심하게 막고 싶다면, 그냥 빨리 해라.어차피 내가 할 수 있는 일이 있는 것도 아니다.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 11:31, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
편집된 내용을 보면, 인에이드토스톱포기하는 것이 의도적으로 파괴적이라고는 생각하지 않는다.가야 할 배움도 있고, 얻는 경험도 있다고 생각한다.일부 기사에서 비원명명을 고유명사로 추가하는 그들의 습관은 멈출 필요가 있지만, 나는 그들이 의도적으로 그것을 계속하지 않는 한 그것이 차단 위반이라고 믿지 않는다.그들의 편집은 선의로 보인다.훈계 대신 멘토?캔터베리 테일톡 12시 42분, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

임블란터, 당신이 변호하고 있는 사용자 칼튼은 현재 내 건설적인 편집 내용을 되돌리고 있으며 수정본을 비교한다면 내가 (출처와) 더 많은 정보를 추가하고 있었음에도 불구하고 내가 '물질적'을 제거했다고 비난하며 전쟁을 편집하고 있다.여기서 내가 정확히 뭘 잘못한 거지?Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 16:57, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 나는 사람들이 이 사용자의 토크 페이지 이력을 볼 것을 제안한다.그들은 내용 삭제, 편집 전쟁, POV와 같은 것들로 수없이 (나에 의해) 경고를 받았다.그들의 대응은 즉시 경고를 보관하는 것이다. 이 편집 요약이 눈에 띄고 여기서 그들의 논평에서 보이는 태도를 강화시키기는 하지만 보통 코멘트 없이 말이다. -- MelanieN (대화) 18:11, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 멜라니엔, 난 단 한 번 경고받았을 뿐이지 네가 거짓으로 말한 것처럼 '수 많은 시간'은 아니야.나머지는 일반 음표였다.또한 두 달 전인 1월 21일에 나의 토크 페이지가 만들어진 후 3월 20일에 첫 번째 아카이브를 만들었다.그것은 '즉시'가 아니다.그리고 나서 나는 당신이 경고한 다음날인 6월 5일에 다시 보관했다.그것은 다시 '즉시'가 아니다.게다가, 아카이빙이 지금 여기서 문제가 되어야 하는가?나는 우리가 이 부분에 대해 있는 그대로 충분한 혐의를 가지고 있다고 생각한다.Ineedtostopforgeting (대화) 18:35, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 더 이상 논평할 말이 없다.당신의 토크 페이지 이력이 말해준다. -- MelanieN (대화) 18:41, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 나는 그들의 토크 페이지에 있는 경고에 대해 거짓말을 하는 것을 포함하여, 파괴적인 편집을 위해 31시간 블록을 얻는 것을 인에드토스톱에게 주었다.교란이 계속되면 다음 블록은 더 길어진다.컬렌328 23시 40분 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC) 토론하자[응답하라]
  • 업데이트: 사용자가 정당화되지 않은 기사에 일본어 번역을 반복적으로 추가하는 등 파괴적인 관행을 계속해왔으며 [60] 사용자에 의해 두 번째 차단됨:컬렌328번길아직 이 사용자와의 문제가 해결되지 않았으니 이 문제를 매듭짓지 말자. -- 멜라닌 (대화) 15:47, 2019년 6월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
That one is not even a 'translation' but just a Japanese transliteration of the English name Changi Jewel Airport(ジュエル チャンギ エアポート), of zero encyclopedic value.그냥 일본 각도로 들어가려고 퓌레즈로 '부탁해'라는 글자에 광택을 내고 글씨를 쓰는 것과 같다.니시다니 (토크) 16:13, 2019년 6월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
안 돼. 이런 '제안 1호' '제안 2호' '....제안 10호'는 다시 하지 않을 거야.합격할 가능성이 있는 제안을 하나 하고, 행정관이 뒷정리를 해주길 바라는 마음으로 대량의 드라마를 휘젓지 마라.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 23:17, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.

우리 몇 가지 결정하자, 응? --에릭(ここ私私話ししててて))))))))))))) 18:52, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

제안 1: WP별 임시 금지/차단:CIR 및/또는 WP:파괴적

  • 고소당한 지지자들은 그들의 토크 페이지 이력이 그 이론을 인정하지 않을 때 "한 번만 경고를 받는다"고 노골적으로 거짓말을 하고 있다.여러 차례 경고가 내려졌지만 소용이 없었다.그래서 지금 당장은 임시방편이 필요한 것 같아.단, 피청구인 사용자가 현재 깨끗한 블록 로그를 가지고 있기 때문에 금지가 영구적으로 되어서는 안 되며, 그러한 편집은 순간적인 무기한 블록을 보장하지는 않을 것이다.--에릭(Erik, こしししてててててて)))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 18:55, 2019년 6월 15일(UTC)[응답)

제안서 2: 최종적인 엄중한 경고와 함께 피소된 사용자를 보내십시오.

  • 제안서 1에 대한 나의 답변에 명시된 이유로 반대한다.향후 블록이 만료될 가능성이 있는 경우 피청구인을 일부 감시하에 둘 수 있을까? --에릭( (こで私話しししててて)))))))) 18:57, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

제안 3: 피고된 사용자를 어떤 형태의 감시 하에 배치하여 다시는 이런 일이 일어나지 않도록 하십시오.

  • 지원, 그리고 제안 1과 3이 동시에 진행된다면 더욱 좋을 것이다.그들을 어떤 형태의 감시 하에 두는 것은 희망적으로 다른 나쁜 편집들을 방해할 것이고, 그것은 피고의 사용자를 더 유능하게 만들 수 있다.이는 결국 피소 사용자에 의해 매우 좋은 편집이 이루어질 수 있다. --에릭( (こ私私話ししててててて))))))) 19:11, 2019년 6월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

주제 금지 제안

이번 싱가포르 관련 기사에서는 이런 행태가 거들먹거리는 편집을 이어가고 있는 것으로 보인다.([61][62] 참조)일본어는 싱가포르에서 공용어도 아니다.따라서 나는 인에드토스톱포기팅이 기사에 번역이나 외국 이름을 추가, 변경 또는 삭제하는 것과 오바야시 사와 관련된 편집을 금지할 것을 제안한다.LaundryPizza03 (dcf) 04:11, 2019년 6월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

@LaundryPizza03: - 두 번째 diff에서는 일본어가 아니다. 싱가포르에서 사용되는 표준 중국어 입니다.두 번째 차이점을 잘못 찾으셨네요.[63]starship.paint (토크) 05:03, 2019년 6월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 이것이 조금 혼란스럽다고 생각한다.염려되는 점을 명확히 하십시오. - 다시 시도하십시오.교수(토크) 14:17, 2019년 6월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
@Ret.Prof : 내 관심사는 스타쉽.페인트?LaundryPizza03 (dcf) 22:41, 2019년 6월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
아마 둘 다 약간 있을 거야. - 되받아.교수(토크) 14:09, 2019년 6월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
@Ret.Prof: - 잘못된 diff가 연결되어 있어서 잘못 고민했다.나는 불쾌감을 주는 편집의 정확한 분산을 제공했다.starship.paint (talk) 03:24, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답하라]

"퇴직"

그리고 뒤이어 논쟁의 여지가 있어 보이는 편집본을 복권했다.떠날 권리에도 불구하고 내게는 그 냄새가 배어 있다.107.190.33.254 (대화) 17:42, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
주요 계정이 차단된 상태에서 스스로 양말을 사용하는 것은 말할 것도 없다. [64].Bennv3771 (대화) 17:50, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
그러나 그들의 정당성은 WP에 의해 그렇게 해야 할 타당한 이유처럼 보인다.SOCKLEGIT (비밀번호 분실 107.190.33.254 (대화) 17:55, 2019년 6월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그가 은퇴하지 않았을 때 은퇴했다고 말한다.이 속임수가 어떻게 그에게 유리하게 작용하는가?(이것을 전에 본 적이 있지만 좋은 방법이 아니다) - 되받아치기.교수(대화)
  • 6월 23일, 사용자는 위키피디아[65]에서 은퇴할 것이라고 말했다 - 비록 그의 이성에 대한 뉘우치지 않는 어조에 주목한다.그리고 나서 그는 논란이 되고 있는 편집 내용 중 하나를 즉시 복직시켰다.나는 이 토론을 아무런 조치 없이 마무리하자고 제안할 생각이었다. 그가 돌아올지, 그리고 그가 그의 파괴적인 활동을 재개할지를 주시하고 있다.하지만 지금은 잘 모르겠어.그의 은퇴를 기정사실화 시킬까?아니면 우리가 가지고 있는 정보로 진행하시겠습니까?이번 토론에서는 블록을 외치는 사람이 여럿 있었고, 주제 금지를 요구하는 사람도 여럿 있었지만, 그 어떤 제안도 집중적인 토론이나 합의를 이끌어내지 못하는 것 같았다. -- MelanieN (대화) 15:59, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
아, 그리고 그가 투싱으로 잡혔을 때, 그는 그가 자신의 주 계정의 비밀번호를 잊어버렸다고 주장했지만, 어쩐지 그가 잡힌 후 다시 마법처럼 그것을 기억해냈다.나는 이 편집자에 대해 점점 더 선의를 보이는 경향이 있다. -- MelanieN (대화) 16:14, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
WP에 대해 들어보셨습니까?아니플루? WP와 만나보십시오.아니포섬.

내 생각에 이런 종류의 부정직은 한 블럭을 보증한다."나는 은퇴했다"를 사용하는 게임 ANI는 종종 남용되는 것이고, 이제는 그것이 짓밟힐 때가 되었다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 16:52, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 당신의 의견에 동의한다. (블록은 징벌적인 조치가 아니라 예방책이다; 그러나 끈끈한 위켓 에서 벗어나기 위해 "나는 은퇴했다"고 말하는 것은 확실히 WP이다.게이밍, 이전 ArbCom 사례에서 경시되어 왔으며) 107.190.33.254 (대화) 17:32, 2019년 6월 25일 (UTC)[응답]
동의한다: 그가 '퇴직'하기를 원하기 때문에 우리는 그를 '진정적으로' 은퇴할 관리자를 찾아야 한다. - 재퇴직하라.교수(토크) 14:37, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
좋은 생각이야, 은퇴한 교수님EENG 18:28, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
@Slattersteven: "은퇴했다"사용한 게이밍 ANI종종 남용되는 에 대해 지난 6개월의 예를 들어줄 수 있는가?왜냐하면 그러한 주장에 대한 더 이상의 맥락이 결여되어 있기 때문이다(나는 ANI를 수년 동안 감시해 왔고 그것은 비교적 드문 경우라고 생각한다 - "침묵한 필리버스터"와 "TLDR 필리버스터"는 훨씬 더 흔하다) 그것은 작년당신이 나를 양말 퍼트리라고 비난하는 것과 다르지 않게, 나를 향한 불필요하고 현재에서 벗어난 포탄처럼 보인다.히지리 88 (聖や) 08:09, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
모든 것이 너에 관한 것이 아니고, 아니 왜 6개월 동안 1년 혹은 영원히 안 되는가?나는 더 이상 이 난간과 교전하지 않을 것이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 09:07, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[답답하다]
음... 당신이 은퇴한 척하는 것이 "흔히" 일어나는 일이라고 말했기 때문에?나는 그런 일이 자주 일어난다는 것에 동의하지 않는다(내가 기억할 수 있는 그런 학대의 마지막 모호하지 않은 경우 4년 전에 일어났던 일), 그리고 나는 네가 그 이야기를 꺼낸 것이 마치 사용자 페이지에 있는 것과 같이 나에게 상당히 노골적인 언급처럼 보인다고 생각한다.
당신은 본질적으로 1, 2월에 있었던 "히지리 유일의 가짜 은퇴" 운동의 주모자였고 심지어 당신의 가짜 양말풀이 고발까지 부활시켰다.2년 동안 계속 이러고 다니더니, 헌병들을 현장에서 쫓아낸 이후로 더 강렬해졌구나.멈춰야 해.
히지리 88 (聖や) 09:53, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
업데이트: 나는 실제로 꽤 비슷한 (실제 ANI 스레드를 훼손하지는 않지만) 또 다른 사례를 방금 보았다.하지만 내가 말했듯이 살아있는 ANI 실이 없고 SS가 어쨌든 중요하다고 말할지는 의문이다. 적들에 의해 취해진 행동은 파괴적이지만 친구들에 의해 취해진 것과 같은 행동은 괜찮기 때문이다.[66] 히지리 88 (聖聖) 11:22, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]

내 행동에 대한 위의 모든 것은 주제에서 벗어나고 있으므로, 우리는 이 ANI와 그들의 행동에 대해 단독으로 토론하고 있는 나(또는 다른 어떤 EDD)를 디스하는 것이 아니다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:09, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

느닷없이 누군가를 공격할 수는 없다(수년에 걸쳐, 몇 년에 걸쳐) 그러면 그 사람이 나타나서 당신을 불러낼 때, "오프 토픽"이라고 외치는 것을 가리킨다.나에 대한 언급에서 너의 구두소리는 주제에서 벗어난 것이었다.당신이 풍토라고 묘사한 "문제"의 단 한 건도 언급하지 않은 것은 당신이 나에 대해 구체적으로 이야기하고 있었고 그렇게 말하고 싶지 않았다는 것을 명백하게 만든다.그만해.내가 이 실의 내용과 가장 밀접한 관련이 있는 것은 내가 일본에 살고 있고 이번 주에 아베와 푸틴이 쿠릴족에 대해 이야기하고 있었다는 것이다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 11:56, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 만약 누군가가 그들의 페이지에 은퇴한 템플릿을 넣은 후에 편집한다면, 템플릿은 강제로 제거되어야 한다고 믿는다.나는 그것들이 돌아와서 건설적이면 차단되어서는 안 된다고 생각하지만, 어떤 양의 편집과 폐기된 템플릿은 호환이 안 된다.캔터베리 테일톡 15:37, 2019년 6월 28일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 정상적인 사건 과정에서 잘 처리되었다면, 하지만 ANI 중에 처리되었다면...미안하지만 그러한 은퇴는 강제되어야 한다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 09:07, 2019년 6월 29일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 은퇴에 관한 한, 이 방에 있는 코끼리는 현재 은퇴한 지 3주 전에 했던 것보다 거의 두 배나 많은 수정 작업을 한 전직 arb 멤버와 전 관리자가 있다.나는 그것을 어떻게 해서든 판단하는 것이 아니다. 하지만 그것이 (징계) 선례로서, 여러분 모두는 같은 일을 한 다른 사람을 제재하는 데 어려움을 겪을 것이다.——SerialNumber54129 10:38, 2019년 6월 30일(UTC)[응답]
    • 나는 자신의 사용자 페이지에 현수막을 다는 것에 대해 어떤 제재할 수 있는 것이 없어야 한다고 생각하지만, 나는 "퇴직"을 해석할 수 있고 논쟁적인 장소에서 계속 논평할 수 있는 권리를 더미 침에 지나지 않는다.트립토테스코타주(토크) 11시 34분, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 좋아. 하지만 내가 위에 제공한 예에서 편집자는 은퇴한 이후 기사 공백이 없는 편집본을 직접 작성하지 않았고, 실제로 WP에만 초점을 맞추고 있다.FRAMBAN-issions.다시 말하지만, 나는 이것이 좋은지 나쁜지, 옳은지 그른지에 대해 판단을 내린다. 하지만 아마도 "논의적인 영역"인가?-——SerialNumber54129
아마도 그러나 그것 또한 부적절하다 그들은 이 ANI의 주제다.그러나 나는 그의 베터들이 하는 일에 대해 프로들을 제재하는 것이 어렵다는 것에 동의한다.그러나 나의 기본 요점은 퇴직 통지는 이제 ANI에 관한 한 무의미한 것으로 취급되어야 한다는 것이다. "그러나 그는 지금 은퇴했다"는 것이 어떤 행동이나 보고서 폐지에 대한 명분이 되어서는 안 된다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 12:53, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
"퇴직" 통보를 받은 것은 ANI와는 아무 상관이 없다.그것은 무관하다.
그러나 OTOH는 ANI에게 당신이 위키피디아에서 은퇴할 것이라고 말하는 것은 그 불평의 장점을 다룰 필요를 없애며 구속력 있는 것으로 취급되어야 한다.7&6=10대 (인터뷰) 15:42, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇지 않다는 것만 빼면, 그리고 앞으로도 없을 것이다.그러나 이 모든 것은 다른 곳을 위한 논의다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 15:48, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

계속 편집 워링

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Vjmlhds는 편집 전쟁을 위해 10회에 걸쳐 차단되었고, 매번 WWE 인력 목록 페이지에 올라 있었다.

2주 전에 이 사용자는 이 페이지[67]에서 "X가 발생했기 때문에 Y가 발생해야 한다"고 기본적으로 말했다.나 자신과 다른 사용자 모두 이것이 WP라고 그들에게 설명했다.OR [68]나는 그들에게 두 사람이 그들의 토크 페이지에 그것을 언급했을 뿐만 아니라, 이전에도 같은 이유로 다른 사람들에게 뒤바뀐 적이 있다고 지적했다.덧붙여 나는 그들에게 똑같은 일이 일어났을 때, 그들이 참여했기 때문에 분명히 인지하고 있었다는 이전의 토론[69]을 지적했고, 그 토론은 그들이 항상 주장하는 것과 어긋난다고 말했다.그들이 왜 우리가 틀렸다고 느끼는지 또는 실제로 정책 기반 토론을 하려고 하는지에 대해 토론하기 보다는 그들은 항상 그렇게 이루어졌다고 주장했고, 그리고 나서 그 토론은 WP라고 주장했다.괴롭힘.

다시 한번 이 사용자는 동일한 인수를 사용하여 오늘날 동일한 유형의 편집을 수행했다[70].나는 이 사용자를 되돌려서 토론[71]을 상기시켰지만, 그들은 그것이 원래 그렇다는 것을 말하며 나를 되돌렸고, 만약 내가 다시 되돌리면 나는 차단될 것이다[72].그리고 나서 그들은 또한 내 토크 페이지에 내가 파괴적인 편집자가 되고 있다는 메시지를 남겼고 그들의 OR 입장을 반복했다.

내가 연결한 토론, 그들의 토크 페이지에서의 대화, 그리고 그들을 되돌리는 다른 사람들을 보면 이 사용자가 합의에 반하여 OR과 편집하고 있다는 것은 매우 분명하다.사용자는 WP를 가지고 있는 것으로 보인다.OWN mind set me, and are not here to collaborative editor. - 갈라츠 גליץץץשיחה Talk 14 14:17, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

정말? 야, 네가 편집 전쟁을 벌이는 사람이야.챔피언들이 자동으로 로스터에 오른다는 점에서 나는 10년 동안 통상적인 절차였던 것과 다를 바 없다.네 뜻대로 되지 않을 때, 넌 히스 발작을 일으켜서 이런 어설픈 "리벤지 포르노" ANI를 하게 되는 거야.이 행동은 점점 더 늙어가고 있어. 그리고 넌 진지하게 마음을 가라앉혀야 해.당신은 왜 다른 편집자들이 당신을 조롱하는지 궁금할 것이다. 그것은 이런 쓰레기 때문이다.Vjmlhds(대화) 15:21, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답하라]
당신에게 설명했듯이 "X가 자동으로 일어나기 때문에 Y는 반드시 일어나야 한다"는 것이 OR이다.복수도 아니고 오싹하게 하는 것도 아니다.그것은 당신이 정책과 합의를 노골적으로 무시하는 것에 관한 것이다.나는 당신의 입장에 반하는 토론과 다른 방식으로 당신과 의견이 다른 여러 편집자들을 제공했지만 당신은 다른 사람들과 정책보다 당신이 더 잘 안다고 생각한다.나는 애초에 이 문제를 당신의 토크페이지에 올린 사람도 아니다.여기서의 당신의 답변은 당신이 사람들이 당신에게 말하는 것을 듣고 싶어하지 않는다는 것을 매우 분명하게 보여준다. - 갈라츠 גאלץץשיחה Talk 15 15:39, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
@Vjmlhds:만약 이 실에서 당신의 인신공격은 다른 사용자들이 참아야 하는 것의 예시라면, 그것은 당신에게 좋지 않은 징조다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:47, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 너희 둘 다 이 내용을 편집하는 것을 그만두길 제안한다.너희 둘 다 그것에 대한 전쟁을 편집하고 있다.WP:분산 해상도 사다리를 위로 이동하십시오.나는 WP:RfC로 시작해서 그 문제를 결정할 것을 제안한다.너희 둘 다 그렇게 할 줄 알 만큼 여기 오래 있었잖아DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:54, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
오직 하나만이 갈라츠를 논쟁하고 있고, 나는 그에게 인신공격도 하지 않았다. 위협도, 종교적/성적/종교적 비방도 없었고, 심지어 그를 어떤 이름도 부르지 않았다.그냥 ANI 연습이 형편없고 바보같다고 말했어 왜냐면 이게 그가 자기 뜻대로 되지 않을 때 하는 일이거든Vjmlhds(대화) 15:57, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답하라]
@Dlohcierkim:이 같은 상황에 대한 토론이 이미 있었고, 이 사용자는 그 토론 중에 인정했다[74].이것은 토론도 다르지 않다. 그들은 그 토론에서 같은 "X가 일어났기 때문에 Y가 일어나야 한다"는 주장을 사용했기 때문에, 나는 논쟁 해결이 올바른 장소라고 생각하지 않는다. 왜냐하면 이 문제에 대한 대화가 기사 토크 페이지에서 이루어졌고, 이 사용자가 "함께 살 수 있다"는 합의가 이루어졌기 때문이다.난 일부러 전쟁 편집보다는 여기로 왔어. - 갈라츠 גאיץשיחה Talk 16 16 16:02, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
@Vjmlhds: 당신의 단 하나뿐인 논쟁 같은 논평은 Galatz가 협력하기 위해 여기 온 것이 아니라는 나의 요점이다.내가 하는 말에 대해 어떻게 안 보느냐고 반박하는 거지? - 갈라츠 גגלץץץשיחה Talk 16:04, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

((ec) ::음, Vjmlhds, 만약 당신이 그것이 무엇인지 위의 것을 인식하지 못한다면.캐스팅 질식사라는 게 더 잘 묘사된 것 같아.여기는 교직원 급식실도 아니고 초등학교 운동장도 아니다.나는 네가 말다툼을 그만하고 분쟁 해결을 계속할 것을 제안한다.갈라츠, 연계된 토론이 현재 문제를 해결할 수 있을 것 같진 않아.다른 RfC든 뭐든 잡아줘DLOhcierkim (대화) 16:09, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 말다툼을 하는 사람이 아니다.갈라츠는 내가 하는 일이 마음에 들지 않아 이리 달려왔다.내가 하는 일은 내 자신을 방어하는 것뿐이야.협력하는 것은 누군가가 나와 문제가 있다고 해서 몸을 굴리고 죽은 척 하는 것을 의미하지 않는다.갈라츠가 무슨 말을 한다고 해서 내가 자동으로 그에게 고개를 숙여야 한다고?Vjmlhds(대화) 16:20, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답하라]
(충돌 편집)@Dlohcierkim:비록 그것이 그 문제를 해결하는 것을 보여주지 않는다는 것에 동의하지 않지만, 나는 토크 페이지[75]에 RFC를 개설했다.- 갈라츠 גאיץץשיחה Talk 16:21, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
@Vjmlhds: 나는 당신이 위에 쓴 것을 스스로 반성하고 읽어볼 것을 제안한다.당신은 오직 한 정당만이 무언가를 논쟁하고 있고 한쪽만이 전쟁을 편집하고 있다고 말했다.그 두 가지 모두 두 당사자가 참여해야 하는데, 잘못했을 수도 있다는 것을 인식하지 못하니 상대방이 분명히 문제라고 느껴라.그게 문제고 네가 왜 여기 오는지는 아마 20번째일거야.당신은 10번이나 봉쇄당했고 그 시간들 중 나와는 상관없는 일이었지만, 왠지 내가 문제라고 생각하는군. - 갈라츠 גzליץשיחה Talk 16 16 16:28, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

나를 여기로 데려오는 사람은 너뿐이야(특히 내가 2년 전 4개월 반 강제 안식년을 마치고 돌아온 이후) - 내가 그냥 넘어가지 않고 너의 길을 내줄 때 이 극단으로 가는 사람은 너야... 지난번에 내가 네가 신이 아니란 걸 확인했을 때 넌 완벽하지도 않고, 힘도 없고, 항상 옳지도 않아.아마도 당신은 약간의 자기반성이 필요하겠지, 그리고 아무도 죽지 않았고 당신을 내 개인 홀 모니터로 만들어준 사실을 생각해봐.너는 지금도 아니고, 나보다 더 나을 일도 없으니, 네 입에서 나오는 모든 것이 복음이라고 거드름 피우는 이 거룩한 태도를 버려야 하고, 나는 네 변덕에 복종해야 한다.Vjmlhds (대화) 16:38, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

@Vjmlhds:넌 이걸 멈춰야 해.다른 편집자의 보다 섬세한 자질을 다루는 토크 페이지에서 원하는 내용에 대해 논의하십시오.DLOhcierkim (대화) 17:01, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 이 토론에서 편집 전쟁과 전투적인 행동을 포함한 파괴적인 편집을 위해 Vjmlhds를 한 달 동안 차단했다.컬렌렛328 20:28, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC) 토론하자[응답하라]
나는 그들에게 경고하려고 노력했다. :(Dlohcierkim (대화) 20:37, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답하라]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

리사타즈

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕 나는 리사 타즈에게 편집 전쟁을 보고하고 싶어. 그리고 그녀는 토니 케닝을 알고 있고 페이지가 리디렉션되지 않길 원한다고 말하려고 해.그녀는 페이지를 다시 수정할 이유가 있다고 생각하지만 그녀는 Def Leppard 페이지에 있는 페이지의 정보는 나처럼 우리가 문제라고 생각하고 @Pichpich: 페이지를 리디렉션할 이유가 없다.내가 AIAV에 신고해서 여기로 오라고 할 정도야어쨌든 네가 상황을 이해하길 바라.감사합니다 A.R.M. (토크) 20:36, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

@ARMcgrath: Compassionate와 나는 둘 다 이 토론을 사용자에게 통지했다.그것은 필수적이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 20:45, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그녀에게 COI를 환영했다.우리가 BRD의 "D" 단계에 있는 것처럼 보인다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 20:47, 2019년 7월 2일
사실, 이건 한테 LTA처럼 보여.CheckUser를 요청했었습니다.공감 727 20:51, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 ping을 받았는데 왜 페이지가 리디렉션되어야 한다고 생각하는지 설명해줄게.리사타즈가 회귀를 시도하는 기사는 출처가 3개뿐이고 모두 문제가 있다.첫 번째는 신뢰성이 있다고 보기 어려운 팬 페이지(그리고 케닝에 대한 정보는 매우 얇다)이다.두 번째는 케닝이 밴드 이름의 특이한 철자를 제안하는 사람이라는 점을 지적하며 지나가는 말로만 케닝에 대해 언급한 책이다.(그런데 이 일화는 데프 레퍼드 기사에도 재조명되어 있다.)세 번째 언급은 케닝의 LinkedIn 프로필에 대한 것인데, 이것은 분명히 받아들일 수 있는 백과사전 출처가 아니다.피치피치 (대화) 21:24, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
분명히 이것은 거의 모든 게시판에 보고되었다:D 나는 이것을 WP에서 보았다:RFP 및 양말 막힘.SPI. ST47(토크) 21:43, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[응답]도 오픈한다.
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

여보세요

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕, 나는 이 IP 사용자라고 말하고 싶었어.Joshq1234Bigg Boss Telugu 1Bigg Boss Telugu 2에 잘못된 정보를 덧붙이고 있는데, Bigg Boss에서는 'Evected'와 같은 이름이나 라벨을 '투표 카운트' 섹션에 붙이지 않지만, 그는 그것들을 되돌리고, 그것의 공공 기물 파손이라고 거짓말하는 양말 편집을 하고 있다.영원히 차단해줘. 86.168.118.213 (대화) 16:43, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답] 추가된 선행 미서명 의견

당신이 ANI에서 누군가를 신고할 때, 당신은 그들의 토크 페이지를 통해 그러한 사실을 그들에게 통지해야 한다.내가 너를 위해 그 실수를 고쳤다.그렇다고 해서 ANI에서 그냥 신고하고 나서 기사 토크 페이지에 그 문제를 언급하고 편집 요약을 사용하여 처음으로 그의 편집을 되돌릴 수는 없으며, 특히 지난 주에 한 번 되돌린 후에는 그렇게 할 수 없다.또한 (양말 꼭두각시처럼) 방어할 준비가 되어 있지 않다고 비난하거나 게시판에 노골적으로 거짓말을 하지 마라(자신이 1톤에 달하는 데이터를 추가하는 사람이고, 그 과정에서 모든 것을 읽기 어렵게 만들고 있다).이 모든 것들이 가 그 사람 대신 막히는 결과를 낳을 것 같은 것들이야.공감 727 19:54, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
@ 컴포니언 727: 네가 말한 모든 문제를 놓쳤다.디프 부탁해.DLOhcierkim (대화) 20:13, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:GemofadealGordon Mydland

사용자:Gemofadeal고든 마들랜드에 대한 나의 MOS 편집 내용을 되돌리고 실제 관심사에 대해 논의하거나 제3의 의견을 요청하는 것을 거부하고, 대신 다른 두 명의 사용자가 같은 (또는 유사한) 문제를 해결하고 해결책을 제안하려고 시도한 후에도 되돌리고 비난만 하고 있다.그는 이제 위협명백한 양말/고기 인형 제작에 착수했다.이것은 콘텐츠 분쟁이 아니므로(어떤 콘텐츠를 삭제하지 않고, 단지 특정 정책을 준수하도록 수정했을 뿐), 나의 접근방식이 분명히 효과적이지 않기 때문에 여기에 누군가 개입해 줄 것을 요청하는 것이다.캐나다 02:31, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 그 편집자에게 짤막하게 주의를 주었다.컬렌렛328 03:08, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)에 토의하자[응답하라]
짧은 박과 빳빳한 술과는 대조적으로.DLOhcierkim (대화) 14:13, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
가 가장 좋아하는 것 중 하나야.컬렌328 19:52, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC) 토론하자[응답하라]

Serpentza는 계속해서 자신의 홈페이지를 편집한다.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ChinaYTwatch

하고 있어. 그는 계속 자신의 계정을 변경하고 있어.

https://https:///en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Winston_Sterzel JasmineWalker51(대화기여) 05:34, 2019년 7월 3일(UTC)에 의해 추가된 사전 서명되지 않은 논평[답글]

@JasmineWalker51: 나는 이것을 WP로 옮기는 과정에 있었다.내가 중국을 발견했을 때 CONE는YTwatch는 CU가 차단되었다.그러니 우리가 여기서 더 이상 할 일이 없다고 생각해.알려줘서 고마워.닐 아인(토크) 06:32, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
BTW, 나중에 참고할 수 있도록 당신은 사람들을 여기로 데려올 때 그들의 대화 페이지에 알려야 한다.이 페이지의 머리글을 읽어보십시오.고마워요.닐 아인(토크) 06:36, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

비정상적인 활동이 있는 오래된 계정

최근 AIV에 반달리즘으로 등재된 1 문제의 편집자는 2010년 이후 인신공격으로 차단된 상태였다.그곳에서 답장을 한 후, 나는 내 토크 페이지 2에 지명자로부터 몇 개의 글을 받았다.왜냐하면 우리는 Zzuzz라는 편집자가 있기 때문에 차단된 계정은 사용자 이름 위반이 되지 않을까?누군가 차단된 계정을 시야에서 제거할 수 있을까?— 마일 (대화) 00:00, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

@JackintheBox: 편집과 함께 대부분 Oversight인 것 같다. Special:CentralAuth/Zzuzz_murder.현재 이슈를 해결해야 할 토크 페이지를 삭제하겠다. --zzuzz(talk) 00:09, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
아, 그렇구나.JACKINTHEBOX • 07:50, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

WP:AIV가 백로그됨

관리자분들의 관심에 감사드리겠읍니다. --- 커피andcruids 09:37, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 이제 밀린 일의 대부분을 정리했다.관심이 필요하다는 것을 알려줘서 고마워. -- Ed (Edgar181) 09:58, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

단일용도계정

User Obsidian Soul은 단일 목적 계정이다.그는 민족주의적인 이해관계가 강하다그는 오직 오스트로네시아의 팽창이나 필리핀인과 관련된 어떤 것에만 초점을 맞추었다.(오스트로네시아 사람들은 필리핀 사람들의 조상일지도 모른다.따라서 이 판본들은 실제로 같은 영역이다.) 그의 판본은 모든 업적이 오스트로네시아인들과 오스트리아인들이 거주하는 모든 지역에 속하도록 노력했다.현재 오스트로네시아 사람 페이지에 실린 판본의 79%는 오브시디안 소울이 만들었다.통계: [76]을 참조하십시오.그의 판본은 모든 농작물을 오스트로네시아인과 오스트리아인들이 거주하는 모든 지역에서 유래했다.다음 판본 확인: [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86]47.244.137.231 (대화) 10:28, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

이 논의를 사용자에게 통지했다. --- 커피andcruids 10:34, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 WP로부터 스스로를 방어할 필요가 없다고 생각한다.SPA 고발, 내 편집 이력이 말해주는군오스트로네시아인들은 현재 나의 관심사다.내가 편집한 것은 모두 책과 과학 저널에 소싱되어 있다.내 추가 사항에 문제가 있으면 더 나은 출처를 찾아 경쟁하십시오.우리 민족의 조상(그리고 세계 인구의 5%)에게 관심을 갖는 것도 '민족주의'가 아니다.나 또한 "모든 업적이 오스트로네시아 사람들의 소유가 되도록" 하지는 않는다.실제로 있는 것만. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 10:55, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
SPA에 대해 말하자면, 이것은 OP의 유일한 편집이며 /22 범위의 3개 중 하나일 뿐이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 12:09, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

위키피디아는 증오 선전에 이용되고 있다.

@Hugsyrup, Malcoxl5NinjaRoboPirate:나는 모든 행정관들에게 몇몇 사람들이 증오 게시물과 선전 지향적인 게시물에 매우 관여할 것을 다시 한번 요청한다.그들은 계속해서 트윗을 올리고 사람들을 위키백과 등에 이슬람 극단주의자로 비난하고 있다.여기 몇 가지 증거가 있다.

이 하르실169는 공동 혐오 이념으로 페이지를 '템플 어택'으로 만들었지만 실제로는 법질서 문제로 더 악화되는 공동 충돌이었다.나는 적절한 조치를 취할 수 있는 충분한 증거를 제공했다. 이것은 매우 나쁜 관행이고 위키피디아가 지식의 진정한 원천이기 때문이다.우리는 이것이 화합과 평화를 방해하도록 내버려 둘 수 없다.

는 존경받는 사회자와 행정가 @Hugsyrup, Malcoxl5, NinjaRoboPirate: 위키백과에서 그러한 관행을 억제해 줄 것을 요청한다.이곳은 공동체적 증오심을 확산시키고 사회적 화합을 저해하는 곳이 아니다.존경하는 위원님들 모두 이런 일이 일어나지 않도록 적절한 결정을 내리길 바란다. Edward Zigma (대화 기여) 08:52, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]에 의해 추가된 이전의 서명되지 않은 논평

@Edward Zigma:우리는 트위터를 통제할 수 없으며, 개별 편집자와 오프위키 계정을 공개적으로 연결하는 것은 기껏해야 의심스럽다.만약 당신이 그러한 편집을 위해 dif 링크를 제공할 수 있다면, 우리는 그것들을 처리할 수 있다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 13:07, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

확실히 하자면 - 나는 관리자나 진행자가 아니다. ('예고'도 아닌 것 같다. 하지만 고맙다.나의 유일한 부분은 어제 약간의 물의를 일으킨 것 같은 삭제 기사를 지명한 것이고, 그로 인해 SPA와 IP가 쇄도하고 있다.나는 이 논쟁이 무엇이든지 간에 다른 어떤 것도 관여하지 않았고, 특히 갖고 싶지도 않다.허그시럽 (대화) 13:55, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워. AfD에서 진행 중인 위키 캠페인은/ Dlohcierkim (대화) 14:14, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
여기서 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 더 많은 관리자들이 알아봤으면 좋겠어.남아시아 정치와 WP에 대해 잘 모르는 사람에겐 혼란스러운 일이다.ARBIPA 집행.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 14:34, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
@Dlohcierkim:[87]

이게 디프프(diff) 입니다.내가 그 기사를 말했듯이, 비록 지역적 사소한 말다툼 사건이었지만 그것을 만들려는 의도는 분명히 선전적인 사고방식에서 비롯되었다.처음에 이 기사는 문제없이 만들어졌고, 그 후 이 기사는 이슬람교도들이 위키피디아 페이지를 얻으면 왜 우리는 할 수 없는가라는 글에 의해 트윗되었다. (명백한 선전)그리고 그는 그들에게 이 기사를 홍보하기 위해 설명을 해달라고 부탁했다.이 양말장난은 일단 놔두자.그러나 아직도 그 이면에는 많은 증오와 공동의 의제가 숨어 있다.기사는 폭력적인 이슬람교도, 이슬람 극단주의자들, 무슬림 폭도들과 같은 용어를 계속 사용하고 있다.그리고 사원에서의 공격, 힌두교 같은 용어들.그것은 지역사회에서 증오심을 키우기 위해 어떻게 기사를 꿰맸는지를 분명히 보여준다.많은 사람들이 편집을 시작한다.가짜 뉴스는 계정을 만들기 시작한 많은 사람들에 의해 편집되고 있었다.여기서 확인해봐[88] 그러자 저자는 종교나 사상과 무관하게 나의 의무인 혐오 콘텐츠를 많이 삭제한 후 나에게 반달리즘을 주장하기 시작했다.나는 적절한 소스를 사용하기 위해 모든 편집에 반복해서 그에게 말했다.그러나 그는 계속해서 선전 사이트 opIndia를 출처로 삼고 있다.신뢰할 수 있는 출처 WP에서 이 기사의 상태를 확인할 수 있다.RS 아카이브 번호 248.나는 계속 여기가 선전 사이트라고 말했지만, 그는 계속 이 사이트를 인용하고 이 사이트에 의해 퍼지고 있는 모든 가짜 뉴스를 덧붙인다.그래서 문제는 출처가 믿을 수 없다는 것을 알면서도 작가가 계속해서 편집하고 가짜로 그리고 신뢰할 수 없는 혐오 뉴스를 공동선전의 한 부분으로 덧붙이는 것이다.그 글의 언어는 인도 사회의 증오를 채우기 위해 만들어졌다.아직도 다른 사람들과 트위터에서 음모를 꾸미는 중인데 그건 위키 밖에 있는 것 같아.그래서 나는 @Dlohcierkim을 원한다: 인도의 많은 젊은이들이 온라인에 있고 이러한 종류의 선전은 좋은 사회에 매우 해롭다.감사합니다.

좋은 지적이야.SPA가 맹위를 떨치고 있는 AFD와는 별개로, WP가 어디에 있는가에 대한 예시인지 궁금하다.OFFICE 조치가 필요할 수 있다.우선 AFD를 가동시켜야 해.만약 그것이 살아남는다면(NN이 그것이다) 우리는 문제가 있는 편집들을 제거하고 심지어 OS를 리빌더 할 수 있다.WP가 다음과 같은 이유처럼 보인다.DS 루트로 가고 싶은 사람이 있다면, ARBIPA가 존재한다.나는 대담하게 그 일을 조정할 수 있다.다른 지역사회의 의견은 존중될 것이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:38, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
이것은 또한 우리가 손을 잡을 T&S가 필요하지 않다는 것을 지역사회가 보여줄 수 있는 기회가 될 수도 있다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:41, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
Dlohcierkim, 지금 당장은 여기에 많은 필요가 있다고 생각하지 마십시오.
요컨대, 우리는 트위터/쿼라 유명인사가 (후자로부터 금지된) 우파 힌두트바를 편집하고 있는데, 그가 일단 선거운동을 하면 그의 추종자들이 끼어들었다.그리고 그 과정에서 몇 가지 파괴적인 내용을 게시했는데, 그 내용은 내가 삭제한 겁니다.
그는 이미 NRP로부터 ACDS와 유세 가이드라인에 대한 경고를 받았고 나는 (지금) 그에게 어떤 종류의 정치적 어젠다 푸싱도 자제해 달라고 부탁했다.현재까지는 경계 내에서 활동 중인 것으로 보이지만, 앞으로는 더욱 심화될 것으로 보인다. DS TBAN은 버튼이 떨어져 있다:-) WBGconverse 15:47, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워 WBG방금 그들로부터 왔고 당신의 위대한 업적들을 보았다.그 페이지는 반투명하고 깨끗하다.우리가 증오에 대한 개별적인 편집자에 대한 조치가 필요한지 확실하지 않다.누군가 사건을 여기로 가져오는 것을 고려해야 하지만, 그것은 내 범위를 벗어난다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:49, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
@날개날개날개(Godric:다시한번 감사합니다.아마도 NOTHERE 블록이 순서대로 되어 있을 것이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 15:53, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
@날개날개날개(Godric and Dlohcierkim):관리자들께 감사드린다.나는 현재 기사의 상태가 매우 좋고 잘 쓰여져 있기 때문에 기사에 아무런 문제가 없다.그러나 나는 저자가 여전히 불필요한 편집을 함으로써 문제를 높이려 한다는 것을 알았다.하지만 당신들 덕분에...모든 당신이.에드워드 지그마 (대화) 19:39, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

IP 93.138.159.254에 의한 이반 건둘리치의 반복적 반달리즘

우리는 여기에 상황이 있는데, 2주 전쯤 이 IP 주소가 이반 건둘리치를 파괴하는 데 끈질기게 관여했다는 것을 우리가 직접 이해한다면 더욱 그렇다.IP는 나를 동시에 모욕하면서(이반 건둘릭 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1012#Ivan_Gunduliich 이하) 아무런 언쟁도 없이 여기까지 나를 신고하기까지 했다.관리자가 2주 동안 페이지를 추가 편집하지 못하도록 보호했다.지금 우리가 볼 수 있듯이, 그것은 아무 소용이 없었다.나는 IP를 Geolocate로 확인했고, 그것은 문제의 HR과 동일한 영역이다.현재의 중립 안정 버전은 2014년으로 거슬러 올라가는 큰 디쿠션(여기와 TP 둘 다)의 결과였다.나는 이런 종류의 파괴적인 비파괴적 행동이 무력화되기를 바란다.감사합니다.P.S: IP에 이 입력(사용자 TP ofc 없음)에 대해 알리지 못했는데, 만약 누군가가 어떻게 하는지 알려준다면 기꺼이 그렇게 할 것이다.Mm.srb (대화) 17:28, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

IP 주소는 안정적이므로 User talk:93.138.159.254에 공지사항을 게시하십시오.널 위해 해줬어.IP가 역동적이었다면, 비록 헛된 일이겠지만, 당신은 아마도 가장 최근에 사용한 주소의 토크 페이지에 글을 올릴 것이다. 컴포니언727 18:08, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
Mm.srb, FYI로서 위키백과 사이트는 위키백과 콘텐츠가 통합되어 있지만 위키백과 사이트가 아니다.S 필브릭(토크) 19:28, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
링크는 단지 오류일 뿐이다. WikiVisual을 직접 편집할 수 있는 것은 아니므로, 거기 있는 콘텐츠의 외관은 그것이 한때 여기에 있었다는 것을 증명한다.공감 727 19:36, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 혼란을 피하기 위해 링크를 바꿨다.Mm.srb(토크) 정보를 얻으십시오.
건둘릭이 크로아티아 국적을 선두로 명시적으로 태그한 것은 이 주제에 대한 과거의 편집 전쟁과 맞아떨어진다.나는 장기간에 걸친 학대로 인해 그 기사를 반역했다.과거 토론에 대한 자세한 내용은 기사 대화 페이지를 참조하십시오.만약 이것이 IP가 아닌 등록된 계정이었다면, 우리는 WP에 그들에게 다음과 같이 경고할 것이다.ARBMAC 제재.에드존스턴 (대화) 19:46, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

컨센서스 없이 과감한 편집 및 복구

사용자:AnAudLife는 '뉴욕의 진짜 주부들' 기사의 infobox를 다른 방식으로 분류해야 할 것 같은 느낌이 들며, 이 의견을 기사의 토크페이지로 가져가는 것을 거부해 공감대를 얻는다.카일 조안talk 23:14, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

매번 사용자:카일 조안이 수정본을 바꿨는데, 내가 직접 참고하여 적절하고 정확하게 인용했음에도 불구하고, 나는 내 토크 페이지에서 그녀의 의견에 전적으로 답하며, 그 변경사항을 충분히 설명했다.모든 대화가 가시화되고 문서화된다.AnAudLife (대화) 23:32, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]

@KyleJoan and AnAudLife: 편집은 그만.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 23:34, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
아무도 막히지 않고 우리가 이 일을 처리할 수 있다면 정말 좋을 거야.위키백과:분류_of_people#Other_exception은 "입자나 접두사가 있는 이름은 복잡한 필드이며 예외와 불일치가 있다"고 언급한다.따라서 이것은 반드시 공개적인 사건일 필요는 없다. 이 특정한 사건을 알아내려고 노력할 필요가 있을 것이다.내가 좀 더 조사해 볼게.하우쿠르 (대화) 23:53, 2019년 6월 30일 (UTC)[응답]
글쎄, 나도 몰라!나는 그 여배우 자신이 무엇을 선호하는지, 그것이 우리가 알고 있다면 아마도 디폴트할 것이라는 것에 대한 정보를 쉽게 찾을 수 없었다.Luann de Lesseps라는 기사는 현재 그녀를 L로 분류하고 있지만 이전 버전은 그녀를 D로 분류하고 있다.Talk에 대한 코멘트를 제안하고 싶다.Luann de Lesseps 그리고 아마 그곳에 있는 누군가가 무언가를 알 것이다.어떤 좋은 정보가 나타날 때까지, 그것에 대해 싸우는 것을 피하도록 노력하라 - 우리가 옳은 것이 무엇인지 알아낼 때까지 잘못된 버전은 심각한 해를 끼치지 않을 것이다.대화 페이지에서 그것을 물질적으로 토론하고 기사화된 경고를 피하라.만약 당신이 이것을 할 수 없다면 계속해서 가장 가능성이 높은 결과를 되돌리는 것은 당신 둘 다 막히는 것이다.하우쿠르 (대화) 00:08, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
적절한 이름의 맥락에서 사용되는 프랑스어 "de"는 "of"이며, "Leseps"라는 적절한 성의 일부로 간주되지 않으므로 F(Frankel)는 알파벳에서 L(Leseps)보다 앞에 온다.그 페이지는 영어로 쓰여질 수도 있지만, 레셉스가 적절한 성이고, 프랑스어나 영어가 같거나 무관하며, "of"를 의미하는 전치사 "de" 대신 알파벳으로 표기되어야 한다는 사실은 항상 남아있을 것이다.참조: https://www.bookcrossing.com/forum/12/360742 "접두사가 기사 또는 기사와 전치사로 구성된 경우 접두사 아래에 입력하십시오: - 라 브루예르, 르네 - 데스 그랭게스, 샤를 마르크, 그렇지 않은 경우 전치사 다음에 나오는 이름의 부분: - 무셋, 알프레드 드 - 라 폰테인, 장 드"AnAudLife (대화) 01:07, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 불어를 낙제했다DLOhcierkim (talk), admin, renamer 07:16, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답]
신경 쓰지 마.드골에 앞서 프랑스 성을 축약하는 규칙은 사실 훨씬 더 복잡하다. 예를 들어 드골에서 갈레로 축약하는 것은 불가능하다.게다가, 그것들은 실제로 프랑스어의 규칙이 아니라, 프랑스에서의 성에 대한 규칙이다.같은 명칭은 다른 나라에서는 다르게 취급될 수 있다.예를 들어 벨기에에서 de는 흔히 성(네덜란드어 60%, 프랑스어 50%, 독일어 1% 등 2개 국어 포함)의 일부로 간주되는데, 이는 de담도 입자로 사용되는 프랑스 전치사인지, 투센보겔로 사용되는 네덜란드어 확정물인지 항상 명확하지 않기 때문일 것이다.— 내 추측으로는 담도 입자나 투센보겔 모두 합법적인 미국식 이름 지정 시스템의 일부가 아니며, 둘 다 성의 일부로 간주되지 않는가?LoveLili Charlie (talk) 08:23, 2019년 7월 1일 (UTC)[응답하라]

사용자 2001:D08:DB:C337:2195:E1CA:C9E4:78E1(말레이시아 IP 공격 싱가포르인)

2001:D08:DB:C337:2195:E1CA:C9E4:78E1(토크 · 기여 · (/64) · 기여 · 필터 로그 삭제 · WHOIS · RBLs · http · 블록 유저 · 블록 로그)
미안하지만, 내 이름을 사용하고 다른 사용자들을 짜증나게 하고 있어.
공격당한 사용자는 동일인일 가능성이 높다.건담5447 (대화) 03:15, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 차단된 2001:D08:D8::/46 2주 동안.아논 전용이고, 최근 담보물은 없어.사실 이 일은 한동안 계속되어 왔기 때문에 나는 블록을 늘리는 것을 고려하고 있다.ST47 (대화) 03:53, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

내게 대한 알 수 없는 공격

내가 이해할 수 없는 글을 쓰는 사람은 다섯 명이다.
제발 처리해줘.건담5447 (대화) 05:39, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]

관리자 참고 사항: 위의 섹션과 동일한 경우. starship.paint(토크) 06:34, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[응답]
WHOIS에 따르면, 그들은 아마 같은 사람일 것이다.나이고스(t@lkContribs) 06:40, 2019년 7월 2일(UTC)[응답]
이거 내가 개별적으로 막았어.범위가 막히면 엄청난 부수적 피해로 보이는군아마 좀 더 경험이 많은 사람이 방법을 찾을 수 있을 것이다.DLOhcierkim (대화) 06:43, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
각각 /64개로 확장, 애논 전용.DLOhcierkim (대화) 07:21, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
Pictogram voting comment (orange).svg 참고: 위의 스레드와 병합블록이 효과적이어야 하고, 다시 시작되면 주저하지 말고 저희에게 ping을 해주십시오. 당신의 토크 페이지에 있는 짧은 보호는 억제책이 될 수 있습니다. -- Luktalk 08:20, 2019년 7월 2일 (UTC)[응답]
@ST47Dlohcierkim:참고 위키백과:관리자 알림판/InsidentArchive1010#Malaysian IP에 이상한 기여가 있음—[AlanM1(대화)]— 10:20, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
탁탁. 위에 부제를 달았다.ST47이 이 RB로 그 보고서의 범위를 못 박은 것 같다> DLOhcierkim (대화) 10:30, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]
OP의 기여와 IP의 기여를 탐구하는 것은, 여기 또 다른 커플이 있는데, 분명히 동일한 편집자가 범위 밖에 있다.이제 오래된 문서화:
이는 IP가 다른 토크 페이지에서 복사하여 스스로 경고하는 새로운 행동의 예다.
이러한 사항은 다음과 관련이 있을 수 있다.
알렉산드리아의 콥트 정교회에서는 지난 4월 로드아일랜드와 온타리오(캐나다)에서 5개의 서로 다른 IPv6에 의한 신속한 편집이 있었다.두 달 후 말레이시아 친구는 상위 34비트의 공통점(2001:d08:0/34)을 가진 5개의 다른 IPv6의 5개 편집을 5분 만에 풀었다.이상하게도 유사한 패턴이지만 리턴된 IP의 주제 영역 및 지리적 영역:
따라서 2001:d08::0/34(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 필터 로그 · WHOIS · RBLs · 블록 사용자 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그) (또는 /32)는 전체 범위를 차단하는 데 따른 부수적인 손상이 있더라도 관련 활동을 검색하기에 올바른 범위인 것 같다.
—[AlanM1(대화)]—00:20, 2019년 7월 4일 (UTC)[응답]

리즈 남성 성악 합창단

리즈뮤지션, 히스토리 오브 리즈, 리즈히스토리안, 리즈머셜보이스초이르는 모두 2013년 11월 기사를 만든 사용자로 기사를 편집한 프로모션 사용자 이름이다.이것은 나에게 엄청난 이해충돌처럼 보인다.클로버모스 (대화) 18:58, 2019년 7월 3일 (UTC)[응답]

  • Well, I will note that HistoryOfLeeds and LeedsHistory don't seem overtly promotional, and LeedsHistorian doesn't seem to be relevant, while Leedsmalevoicechoir received a username softblock back in 2013 and never edited again. (Although this should have been noted on the talk page, which I will fix momentarily.) LeedsMusician and LeedsSinger99, the two most recent ones, give me pause, but I'm not sure what to make of all of it. There's a discontinuity of several weeks to several years between each user, and no overlap. Are we looking at slow socking to try to avoid scrutiny, or does he just keep forgetting his passwords and creating a new account? Compassionate727 (T·C) 19:31, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't know what action I'm looking for, exactly. I'm just concerned that all of these articles have Leed in the title and only seem to be interested in editing this article. The article was created by Leedsmalevoicechoir, so I have some doubt about whether the article is even notable - and if it is, it's likely biased. Clovermoss (talk) 19:37, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm sure you're correct, but you didn't report this to WP:SPI? It's better to start at SPI, just saying. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 19:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't recommend that. This is much more likely to be COI-meat, and ANI (or COIN) is a much better venue for determining if the editing is disruptive and merits sanctions than SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Seeing as it's a choir, I think it's more likely to be about paid or promotional editing. I'm not sure SPI is the best place, COIN would probably be better if this was moved. A lot of the edits are marked as minor, some of them remove wikilinks, some remove references, other's change the link. I can link specific diffs to some of the more problematic edits if it helps. Clovermoss (talk) 19:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Bbb23 Yeah, you're right. But I don't really see any disruptive editing or abuse of multiple accounts. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Neither do I. Are there any recent edits that are actually a problem? I understand our COI guidelines, but it's understandable that an article about a notable organization would draw some editors from within the organization. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Without actually checking the cited sources, a scan of their titles seems to indicate that the subject passes WP:GNG and fails WP:NONPROFIT (assuming this choir is, in fact, non-profit). There seems to be some debate within the community recently as to whether subject-specific notability guidelines modify or simply aid in interpreting the GNG, so this could result in some interesting debate at AfD, if anyone wants to go that route. Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:06, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some diffs.
  • [89] This edit removes an edit to the Yorkshire Reporter and removed details of other choirs, was marked as a minor edit with an edit summary of "Poor grammar"
  • [90] This edit removes wikilinks to musical directors and is also marked as a minor edit.
  • [91] This edit adds an external link to the choir's website.
  • [92] This edit removed a whole paragraph of information. It's cited from their own website, but there's a lot of edits like these. There seems to be a years-long effort by various editors with Leed in their usernames to update the choir's current activities and remove anything that's an older event. To me, this gives the impression that this could be about maintaining PR. There's also a lot of focus on the choir's charity work, which again, seems more advertising-related than encyclopedic. To be fair, these edits go from newest to oldest and a lot of these are slight changes that accumulate. I still think it's worth looking into though, since there's been a very similar editing pattern like this since the article was created in 2013. Clovermoss (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As an aside, I note that apart from the Daily Telegraph (and YouTube), all the sources are local in nature, i.e. Yorkshire. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
These are not the only edits made, either. As I said, a lot of the edits are small and are updates of that are related to the recent events of the choir. Those diffs are a very small sample, since there has been 45 edits by LeedsHistory, 21 by Leedsmalechoir, 14 by Leedsmusician and 5 by LeedsHistorian. Clovermoss (talk) 20:30, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Malcolmxl5: That's true, all the independant sources are local. The choir's website is also cited frequently throughout the history of the article's changes. Clovermoss (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC) Malcolmxl5 Didn't ping you right the first time. Clovermoss (talk) 20:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mention it because local coverage is not usually enough to demonstrate notability though that is a question to be tested by WP:BEFORE and at WP:AfD, and is not related to any COI issues. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have warned the two most recent possible UPE users about the COI guidelines, and have tagged the article. TheAwesomeHwyh 21:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I found even more possible UPE users: Rpb2012, RichardAtTheSeedHouse, RichardLMVC, and Lazzer185. Some of them have already been banned, none of them are active anymore. TheAwesomeHwyh 22:08, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec)I don't think we need to worry about blocked, inactive editors from years ago. This isn't exactly urgent disruption and probably should be taken to COIN. LizRead! Talk! 23:24, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Liz: Just a quick note: LeedsMusician edited the article today. It was the only reason I started looking through the page history in the first place. That said, I don't mind this being taken to COIN, or whatever else people agree is best. I just thought that what I saw might be an issue, so I posted on here. Clovermoss (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hanlon's Razor applies. Consider this "Poor grammar" edit, for example. From the viewpoint of the (slightly inept) editor it really was a grammar fix. Look at what the article said in the previous revision:

The choir's divergence from the traditional male voice repertoire was highlighted in a new recording in 2015. and the Hollywood Heroes concert in June, celebrating legendary leading men from the movies to a sell out audience at Morley Town Hall with the Phoenix Concert Band.

The second part is gibberish, a sentence fragment with no main verb. Removing that happened to remove the supporting source citation at the end of the sentence fragment. To you and me, experienced in the ways of wikitext, it removed a citation. To the editor concentrating upon the rendered article, it corrected ungrammatical rubbish by removing it.

It was another of these accounts that mucked up that sentence in the first place, almost exactly a year earlier.

Similarly, the edit that removes wikilinks to musical directors has been misrepresented by Clovermoss above. In the immediately preceding edit that same person had, a mere 9 minutes before just added that list. Clearly, what actually happened is that the editor added the list, and noticed after saving that the bluelinked John Hickes, Unknown (sic!), John Wheeler, David Burnett, Michael Grant, and Tim Knight were not the people that were meant. You or I might have determined which truly needed to be redlinked and added some disambiguators accordingly, definitely de-linking "Unknown" (and possibly not even linking it in the first place ☺). The editor who clearly is less experienced than us, simply removed all the linking.

Clovermoss' aforegiven description of this edit is also a misrepresentation. Far from removing "a whole paragraph of information", it removes nothing at all, and merely breaks one paragraph in twain, in fact adding a sentence at the same time.

Uncle G (talk) 23:21, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Interestingly, xe did attempt to create Draft:Tim Knight (Composer/ Choral Director). Uncle G (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Uncle G: I did want to mention that I did read what you wrote and thought a bit about it. I'm not the best person to ask about whether or not I'm misrepresenting things and I welcome commentary on other perspectives, because obviously I'm biased towards my own perception. I don't disagree that these are mistakes that could have been made by someone who is unfamilar editing Wikipedia. I think the razor has an applicable context in the assumption of good faith. It's also possible that maybe this choir just has a really enthuisatic fanbase. I realize that there are other possibilities and implications than the ones I've arrived at, though I do remain skeptical and concerned about other things I've already mentioned in this thread. Clovermoss (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am fairly certain that this is someone unfamiliar with editing. And the idea that a charity in the North of England that (according to a news report that I just read) almost collapsed for lack of volunteers and charitable income in 2011 is employing a PR company does make me laugh. I don't want to go into details. But the (I shall just say) blindingly obvious conclusion that I have formed is that volunteers who volunteer for a charity in the U.K. have come to a project run by charity in the U.S. to write about their U.K. charity. So yes, they have a conflict of interest, but as far as I can see it is not in order to line their own pockets. (And their charity claims the goal of promoting education, too.) So go just a little easier on the people who clearly are not sockpuppeeteering, aren't vote-stacking, aren't edit warring, and don't know how to use MediaWiki as well as we do, including especially the "preview" button, and beware of baffling them with WP:OMGWTFBBQ bafflegab and looking like robots who deliver boilerplate. Uncle G (talk) 01:00, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Salute to America

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pretty obvious WP:NOTHERE by Cklsldkfiwr. Article needs to be semi'd to prevent further edit-warring. Cards84664 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done. El_C 05:36, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NOTHERE and DUCK

--- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:14, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Never thought I'd see pornographic vandalism on this website. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 09:20, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It would be great if those edits could be revdel'd, as they are disruptive enough. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 09:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also: SamwanLaikYu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All the users have been blocked, the edits have been hidden, and the image on Commons has been deleted. If the problem returns with new users and new image, please immediately re-report here or at AIV. Thank you. -- Ed (Edgar181) 10:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Noting two more socks: MarkoVanBeaten (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and the already-blocked DeclanCorn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --- Coffeeandcrumbs 06:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive anon 82.132.244.0/22 revisited, now as 82.132.236.0/22

See archived link at wp:ANI: [93]

After their 72 hours block by user Georgewilliamherbert on 20 June 2019, they continued as

Same article, same M.O., same person, clearly solliciting a (longer term) range block. Prepare for the next range. DVdm (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anon Blocked 82.132.245.64/26 and 82.132.238.21 Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dlohcierekim: Thx. - DVdm (talk) 16:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dlohcierekim and Georgewilliamherbert: Here's the next range 82.132.224.0/22 already:

Block evasion with more pointless math edits from range by same person. - DVdm (talk) 07:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is like swatting the mosquitoes on my lanai. Anyone got ssome off. Are these pages SP'd? Should they be? Or PC'd? Dlohcierekim (talk) 10:28, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's an RB BBQ. Happy 4th, y'all. Dlohcierekim (talk) 10:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Betsy Ross flag

Can this page please get some administrative overview, constant edit warring the last couple of days, 3RR violations, etc. going against what seems a talk page consensus. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lot of IPs editing on American Independence Day. I think a WP:SEMI will solve the issue fast. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 12:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only partially, per the history and talk page. Needs some constant admin oversite (the page is getting over a hundred and fifty thousand views a day). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:30, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I fully protected it for two days. It can be downgraded to ECP or semi if people settle down and stop reverting. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Constant disruptive editing

DusanSilniVujovic (talk · contribs) keeps changing Yugoslavia records/medals to Serbia. The user has been reverted in every article, but still keeps doing that. Mostly recently concerning water polo competitions, while several discussions have been held (e.g), the user still refuses to understand and keeps mispresenting a source claiming "FINA considers Serbia to be the inheritor of the records of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro." Anyone actually reading that source will see there is no such thing written. There are no sources out there to back that claim. The user has done similar edits to basketball pages - all reverted and the user warned. DusanSilniVujovic is vandalism-only account. Pelmeen10 (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

talk only vandalist here is you. The medal table below lists the national teams according to the respective table published by FINA[1], page 14 and 15, and this is my creation on medal table by Water polo at the World Aquatics Championships. DusanSilniVujovic (talk) 13:28, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can't claim that you own your edits on the table. That would violate WP:OWN. --Erik (ここで私と話してください) 13:30, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nationalist WP:SYNTH is the most annoying type of WP:SYNTH - the source says that Serbia was previously part of Yugoslavia and refers back to the YUG abbreviation for records prior to the existence of Serbia as an independent country. Saying that means that Serbia specifically, as opposed to any of the other former Yugoslav republics, inherited those records is a NO. That said, this is a content dispute and probably a waste of everybody's time. Simonm223 (talk) 13:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can say that it is a NO, which is okay (it is not matter of personal opinion), but according to International Olympic committee Serbia is the successor of Yugoslav team and all of its medals. Mm.srb (talk) 19:22, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's definitely not true [100][101]. And in this case we're not talking about Olympics - where we have a clear consensus to keep them separated from Serbia anyway. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:30, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have no agenda here and I personally care little about sports, but even Croatian sources are saying this (while calling it injustice). Serbia counts Yugoslav medals the same way Russia counts the medals won as Soviet Union. I could be wrong, but I doubt that the medals are shared or divided by all 6 modern-day countries. I can post links in our language but you would not understand the text. Mm.srb (talk) 21:50, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

Cantonese again

I raised the behaviour of Jaywu2000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) on the Cantonese article in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1011#Reference falsification at Cantonese, namely attempting to replace a sourced population figure without providing a reliable source. The page was temporarily extended confirmed projected, and some editors offered advice at User talk:Jaywu2000. However, the protection has expired, and Jaywu2000 has resumed forcing his/her change, ignoring attempts to discuss the issue. I would like it to stop. Kanguole 22:13, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Cantonese is on my watchlist as well and Jaywu2000 is popping up way too much with their edit warring. They're still very new and may not be familiar with norms here but failing to listen and continuing to edit war, when so many editors have offered advice, is disruptive. Blackmane (talk) 04:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
+1. Jaywu2000 seems to be on a mission. Their 20+ edits to Cantonese (plus a few to Yue Chinese and one to List of languages by total number of speakers) were all about raising the number of Cantonese speakers, but they failed to provide a source that is reliable and for Cantonese proper, despite users telling them again and again to discuss this on the article's talk page. See User talk:Jaywu2000, Talk:Cantonese#Number of speakers, as well as the article's revision history. LoveLiliCharlie (talk) 05:35, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jaywu2000's most recent edits: changing the number of Yue Chinese speakers to 130 million in article Yue Chinese and to 80 million on Chinese language. How flexible they are with figures! LoveLiliCharlie (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On Hong Kong Film Award, Jaywu2000 changed the language parameter from "Mandarin/English" to "Cantonese" without providing a source. Although the statement was already unsourced, this is in line with the user's current trend of disruption because it exaggerates the frequency of the Cantonese language. Considering that the user has made a single edit unrelated to Cantonese (save one about Yue Chinese, which is also called Cantonese), we should proceed with a temporary block (which has not been tried on this user) and/or a topic ban from Cantonese. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 15:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, Jaywu2000 is behaving little more as a SPA and widening their area of disruption. Blackmane (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks from AdamPrideTN

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Moneyspender&oldid=904841565 WP:PA not being WP:Civil and name calling/ verbal abuseMoneyspender (talk) 23:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Really dude?? Personal attacks?? Where when how? Just let it go please There had been a discussion on the page and other editors agree with me So? What did i name call u? Please?? Relax!! AdamPrideTN (talk) 00:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You said "Ok so u are biased islamophobic arabophobic" all because I disagreed with you you did a wp:personalattack. Btw, I am very pro-Arab and very pro-Islam. That is inapropriate. Being a keyboard warrior does not get your point heard any more clearly and is disruptive and rude. Please apologize. Moneyspender (talk) 00:44, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is a terrible rant, Adam. Work on being civil. And learn to spell. 2600:100F:B11E:E9B3:4BB:E524:946C:D505 (talk) 02:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Moneyspender: I've added some links to documentation about how to collect diffs. To allow any administrator to consider your complaint, we would need to see specific diffs of what you are complaining about. I looked at the page you linked to, and no personal attack immediately jumps off the page at me. I think a good course of action for you would be to disengage from whatever dispute you have with this editor and go edit some other page. Of course, you are free to come back here with diffs that actually violate WP:NPA, if those diffs exist. I'll leave this thread open for now.Jehochman Talk 03:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • This looks highly problematic to me. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:39, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • The user doesn't seem to have that strong a command of English. It's hard for me to understand what they are getting at, but if you see the need, by all means please take care of it. Jehochman Talk 04:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is a warning would suffice. In any event I am not an admin so further action is not within my authority. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You pass the first test of becoming an admin. 😜 Please give the user advice to be more polite and to avoid personal attacks. Since no block is needed, you can take care of it yourself, and then close this thread. JehochmanTalk 04:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You could regain your administrative powers quite easily, Ad Orientem, just by asking. Please consider doing so. Cullen328Let's discuss it 07:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jehochman: i have perfect mastery of the English language, sorry just sometimes the key board play its tricks on me.

@2600:100F:B11E:E9B3:4BB:E524:946C:D505: @Ad Orientem: i apologize if i u think i was uncivil. This wont happen again but if u check the talk page the LGBT rights in the United Arab Emirates u will get it more. But anyway sorry for that. @Moneyspender: first i have to say i didn't call u anynames or bad things and if u think i did then i'm so sorry Again there is no conflict the law of the UAE is the law and i'm an Arab so i can read Arabic. The ILGA doirce is not biased there have been no excutions because of homosexuality ever in Mauretania or UAE or Qatar This wikipedia needs to highlight to maintain neutral and to the point. Many other users agreed with me and i'm sure if i bring others into that discussion they would too. So again i'm so sorry if u were hurt in anyway that was not my intention and please try to stick to the facts and to bigtime reliable sources. Sorry again. Ok!! AdamPrideTN (talk) 10:37, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Moneyspender: there’s an apology above. Do you accept it and can we close this thread? Jehochman Talk 10:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I accept. Thank you. Moneyspender (talk) 05:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dynamic IP causing problems at South African farm attacks

The dynamic ip 2804:14C:5BA9:8156:DDA3:79CC:7186:3F99 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) keeps inserting incendiary material in Wikipedia's voice into this flashpoint article. It's clear WP:SYNTH but I don't want to look like I'm edit-warring trying to keep it out. No edit summary or discussion from the IP after reverts, of course. Admin attention appreciated. Autoconfirmed protection would probably not be remiss either. Simonm223 (talk) 13:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also it looks like the IP user has broken WP:3RR. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Simonm223 (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:KolbertBot is malfunctioning - breaking Archive URLs

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Moved to WP:BOTN
See: Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#User:KolbertBot_is_malfunctioning_-_breaking_Archive_URLsxaosflux Talk 15:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Beyond My Ken

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BMK has been blocked 11 times for EW. After I reported a 3RR violation today, AN3 declined to block for an extended period of time (or even 24 hours, because I reported EW 15 hours after the incident) so I am asking here for a long-term remedy. wumbolo ^^^ 16:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maybe you should tell editors here that you don't have a clean sheet either, having been blocked twice for edit-warring so far this year, with the latest block being for a week (a length of block that usually means there had been some severe edit-warring...). - Tom Thomas.W talk 16:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) This is a clear case of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Considering that Wumbolo was blocked twice in the last three months for edit warring the phrase concerning "glass houses" may be relevant. MarnetteDTalk 16:36, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MarnetteD: it is not forum shopping because it is a chronic problem that was not addressed at all at AN3. Wikipedia is not a glass house so I don't shy from criticism. wumbolo ^^^ 16:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Hyde1979

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continuing edit-wars that resulted in past blocks. Since last block:

  • comment [[103] changed DOB to one not supported by cite source.] @Hyde1979: Care to explain? As this has been slow mo edit warring I am inclined to block for 2 weeks or a month, just to give others some rest. Dlohcierekim (talk), admin, renamer 00:00, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like the last time Hyde1979 was blocked, Hyde1979 has reverted it once again [104] --Ronz (talk) 16:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've blocked for two weeks, but was seriously tempted by an indef. This user has apparently never discovered their own talk page, despite a number of comments there and a swiftly lengthening block log. In fact they've never edited outside of mainspace. If this doesn't draw a response, I think indef is the next step. GoldenRing (talk) 16:47, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unsourced additions (Michaelgabrielo)

Michaelgabrielo(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has been a constant problem when it comes to adding unsourced content (usually their own interpretations and speculation) to articles, as well as regularly removing 500-1000 bytes of sourced content without explaining why. This started in February and March with warnings for edits for removing content and unsourced content/WP:OR. They were blocked for a week, see here. After the block they left this message. They recieved a warning for removing content again in May and then blocked again the following day, this time for 72 hours [105]. However that did not help. In this edit and this one this month, they added unsourced content and after that on Chad Gable(diff) they added "Originally a heel [villain] tag team, their fighting spirit, and resiliency against their larger opponents won them many fans and began a gradual face [good guy] turn". This is entirely their own personal analysis of a storyline. They also removed around 800 bytes of content in the same edit without reason. For this they recieved a final warning again. Then today in this edit they changed a tag team's article to say they were now disbanded. They gave no source for their change, again just their personal analysis of what is going on. I searched online for a reliable source saying this and could not find one. This was also in disregard of a hidden note placed in the article for this reason. I have left multipe messages including in my own words and nothing helps. Refuses to respond to 90% of messages. StaticVapor message me! 08:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have a belief they are connected to User: Kingofcruiserweight (similar editing style of removing content with no explanation) or some other account with the whole "blockapedia" and this repeatedly mentioning they are a new user. Either way, this is a problem editor and it needs to stop. StaticVapor message me! 08:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
StaticVapor - If this is the case, please file a report at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations and link me to the SPI report when you've done this so that I can take a look. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wrestling. Again. EEng 14:20, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @EEng: Yeah I don't know why there so many disruptive editors in this topic area. Expect me reporting anyone else causing disruption. StaticVapor message me! 04:46, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Oshwah: @Spencer: Hoping for some administrator response here. Tagging the previous blocking admins. I am looking for some comments, I do not want this to just go stale after I typed this all up and notified the user. StaticVapor message me! 19:24, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Michaelgabrielo hasn't made any significant edits for the last few days. I'd like for us to give Michaelgabrielo the opportunity to come here and respond. Looking at their response to the ANI notice that was left on their user talk page, I agree that the edit he refers to here seems perfectly fine, as he was only moving existing content to other places on the article. I do see that a reference was removed in Michaelgabrielo's edit here, but it was simply citing the fact that his name and birthdate are supported by a source. That's easily fixed... in fact, here you go, I fixed it for you. It took me but 20 seconds to do. :-) I'll take a deeper look into the complaint here and the diffs provided, but edits made to articles like the two that I addressed here don't seem to be anything other than good faith attempts to improve the project. In fact, it's considered best practice to not cite anything within the lead section of an article, because the lead section is supposed to summarize the content in the body of the article, which should without-a-doubt cite those same references in-line somewhere if done correctly. So I wouldn't really call the removal of those references a mistake at all... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry @Oshwah:, you must have misunderstood me. In the two diffs I provided to Homicide (wrestler) and Eddie Kingston, the user added: They later became known as The OGz. At the Bound for Glory on October 14, The OGz lost to LAX in a Concrete Jungle Death match. After several weeks, Homicide/Kingston moved to alumni section. Without citations both times. The part that would definitely need sourcing is that they were moved to the alumni section. This indicates that they were no longer with the company. If we're changing what company people work for, it is a BLP violation without sourcing. Also refer to the diffs related to The Bludgeon Brothers and Chad Gable where they are making unsourced (incorrect changes in these cases). I am past assuming good faith since they have been warned and blocked multiple times, without making any changes to their editing style. Disappearing for a few days (probably to a new account again), does not make their edits okay and no longer punishable. StaticVapor message me! 16:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
StaticVapor - See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tonyjenkins450. I have suspicions that there might be more to this... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:59, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for dedicating time to this @Oshwah:. StaticVapor message me! 04:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
StaticVapor - You bet. :-) A CU has investigated the report I filed, and (while sock puppetry involving two different masters was uncovered) Michaelgabrielo was determined to be unrelated to the account I suspected and any accounts that the CU uncovered. It doesn't appear that Michaelgabrielo has edited since the time I looked and found previously. Perhaps a custom final warning for the repeated addition of unsourced content may be in order? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like any additional warning to come from some else, since the majority have come from me. This way it isn't just me that sees problems with the edits. I also see a problem with the WP:ANI flu and not addressing the concerns at all. They just act like I'm rude or out to get them. Sucks this went stale and didn't get much response, I have wanted to start a thread for awhile on this user. @Oshwah: pinging you just so you did not miss the response, but this is more a general statement if anyone that was not seen this stumbles by. StaticVapor message me! 04:50, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism on Ivan Gundulić by Mm.srb

After EdJohnston edited the page and closed for editing, Serbian propaganda again wrote lies about that Croatian poet by the user Mm.srb. Please remove this user from editing wikipedias. Thank you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gunduli%C4%87 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivan_Gunduli%C4%87&action=history He is a Croatian poet here can read [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-Gundulic or here http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/croatia/literature/literature.html and that is all user Mm.srb deleted] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.0.2 (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are required to notify the other editor when you make a complaint here. I've done so for you. — Maile (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Please return to previous editing by users EdJohnston, and user Mm.srb give sanctions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.0.2 (talk) 13:58, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a clear spin. There is an ongoing report and a discussion of the IP who is constantly vandalising the page and ignoring the rules which were politely given by admins and other fellow editors. The article is protected due to constant vandalism. I have provided new sources. This subject was a matter of debate in 2014 and the current version was a stable one and a compromise, all per NPOV. The IP is unable to talk calmly and understand that those edits are not made in order to bash any nation or culture (which is the general idea behing the vandalism and lack of good faith). ty Mm.srb (talk) 16:58, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not spin. He put two sources to prove that he was a Croatian poet, and you erased it.They need to go back to their previous state, not yours.I hope someone will change that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iiooio (talkcontribs) 17:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There was one source posted, after the IP deleted the previous version without argumentation and started campaign of constant vandalisation. Mm.srb (talk) 21:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Ivan Gundulić article is a frequent target for nationalist edit warring. Gundulić was a Baroque poet who lived in the Republic of Ragusa, a region which is nowadays part of the territory of Croatia. In 1600 when Gundulic was alive, Ragusa wasn't part of Croatia, but people people keep trying to make him either Croatian or Serbian in the lead. Here are some past discussions of that article on admin boards:
("Gundulic remains treated as a Serbian writer by Serbian sources", per User:Slovenski Volk)
For reference, the 1911 Britannica calls Gundulić a Servian poet, the current Britannica says he is a Croatian poet, and our current Wikipedia article says he is 'the most prominent Baroque poet from the Republic of Ragusa.' At present our article does not say he is either Serbian or Croatian. Though I suppose we could mention the rival claims on his nationality. E.g. the Serbian Academy of Science does lay a blanket claim to 'the old Ragusan writers', a group which includes him. EdJohnston (talk) 22:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well put; that whole dispute is sourced and explained in one paragraph on the same article (Ethnicity). Mm.srb (talk) 22:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What you write is a great Serbian mythomania that has nothing to do with the truth.Gundulić is a Croatian poet who has nothing to do with Serbia, which can be read in the post by Ivan Gundulić, where is nothing about Serbia is only written about Croatia. If you continue to edit other posts as this will surely ban you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iiooio (talkcontribs) 07:07, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism from a Welsh government source

Contributions from 159.86.182.0/17[106] are basically, at least the recent ones I checked, all vandalism. This[107] is the owner of the range, "The Public Sector Network for Wales." I guess it might be just one school. I'd like someone with more expertise to suggest what to do. Doug Weller talk 14:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PSBA says its network aggregates connectivity for "local health boards, local authorities, higher and further education, emergency services and other public sector organisations", and includes "over 1500 schools". If that's really 1500 schools plus FE colleges, public libraries, hospitals, and public wifi in various public buildings, then that amount is vandalism is really very low. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:01, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So I think we should treat each IP as an individual instutition, and apply WP:SCHOOLBLOCK topically as required. Only if there were evidence of more concerted action, or serious political edits specific to the Welsh government (giving us WP:SIP concerns) would there be more to do. I don't see much of either in that range. All I see is the usual minor vandalism typical of schools - school or local articles themselves, topics relevant to the school curriculum, and pop culture things of interest to younger people. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per others, looks like pretty run-of-the-mill lunchtime in the Welsh school system (why are the Welsh particularly prone to this?). But note that WHOIS says the network is 159.86.128.0/18, not /17. GoldenRing (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"(why are the Welsh particularly prone to this?)"? Perhaps the computer and mobile phone are a novelty after so many years of using a slate and abacus? Just wait until they learn English properly.... Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As a Welshman I understood enough of that to know you are being mean. Arogli fy ngwaelod, mochyn saes! Fish+Karate 10:47, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Commenting here as somebody who started his Wikipedia career as a schoolboy bored lunchtime vandal (in England)... GiantSnowman 15:33, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whoever might use it, actual usage is mainly childish vandalism, such as this. Suggest a brief range block, but still permit account creation. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Backlog at WP:AIV

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Could we have someone deal with it, please? - Tom Thomas.W talk 16:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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User:Superfriend223 calling editors racists

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At User talk:Superfriend223#WP:NOTAFORUM they reply to a 7 month old post from User:Kautilya3 with

"It seems like your policies just exist to hide your racist contributors and racist policies to shout out all those who provide credible challenges. I see you've done nothing about Joshua Jonathon who uses OLDER articles with no scientific data to "discredit" newer scientific papers on the Indo-Aryan migration talk page. You're just a bunch of racists, that's why his hateful views go unchallenged and don't get any shred of scrutiny. your bigoted racists."

At an article talk page[108] they posted this morning:" I don't expect any changes since it seems whatever is said by one-side is seen as far-right bigotry and none of you give a damn about the facts or are willing to change your minds from your preconceived, racist views. Oh, and by the way, the IndiaTV rebuttal makes no sense as Tony Joseph is literally arguing that he believes in the Indo-Aryan invasion because he has no evidence. It seems Joshua Jonathan repeatedly posts news sources that have no scientific value, claim Hindutva is the boogeyman, and uses politically charged language to ridicule other political groups while claiming to be objective with their own political biases. As in typical racist fashion. Superfriend223 (talk) 5:23 am, Today (UTC+1)" That was a reply to a post from March. The main target seems to be User:Joshua Jonathan. I could block and just might later on but perhaps someone can persuade them to stop. Doug Weller talk 09:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Weller: thanks for the concerns. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have given Superfriend223 a 72 hour block for these severe personal attacks on other editors. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Obvious sock

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Hi. Please can I request that Criclover58 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is blocked as an obvious sock of Nainanike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Nainanike was blocked by GoldenRing, following a long-term period of harassment/stalking of me on WP. Criclover58 is a sporadic editor, but is trying to evade their block with this other account.

Their first edit was to ask another editor (who I work with closely) to change the tense of a paragraph in a cricket article. This was something Nainanike obsessed about in their editing. C58 edits follow the same pattern of editing moments after I made an edit, again to some semi-obscure articles (example, example). I'd log this at WP:SPI, but this is a clear WP:DUCK in my eyes. Thank you. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 15:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • To be honest, I've been looking at this for 20 minutes, and I don't see it. Maybe it's just not as obvious to me as it is to you? Can you file a report at SPI, and show some diffs comparing Nainanike's activity with what Criclover58 is up to now? If you ping me I'll have a look at it later today (I'm about to be offline for a bit) or another clerk might beat me to it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ivanvector: see the interaction analyser[109] - ok, it's only three, but then the new editor hasn't edited very much and I'd argue that those 3 are unlikely to be coincidence. The actual times that they edit are similar also. Doug Weller talk 17:34, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ivanvector:, @Doug Weller: thanks for your replies. Their second-ever edit was this asking a user a technical query about this article, which I had edited about 1hr earlier. They also created this article, which is incredibly similar to this article I started, including all the technical wiki-tags (short desc, use dmy dates, authority control), etc. If you need me to log a full SPI, please let me know. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:22, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BullRangifer: I think you intended this edit for the section above.
@Lugnuts: I think it would be best to open a case, just because this seems to be an ongoing issue and it may be useful to have centralized documentation in the future. I can do that myself later when I'm not so pressed for time, though, if another admin wants to act here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:52, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ivanvector: Done. I've opened one here, and has additional evidence. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:58, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now sorted. Many thanks to Doug and Ivan for their help. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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User name policy

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Any one can infom me the user name policy for wikipedia

(Ayyoram (talk) 17:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC))[reply]

You're looking for Wikipedia:Username policy and this really isn't the right place to ask that question. Railfan23 (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Years of Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories, and trolling

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2601:181:8301:4510:59A:6D14:E8B3:ED3A/64 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser (log) · investigate · cuwiki) has been engaging in highly inappropriate commentary on various talkpages dating back to 2016, and I'm thinking that a block is appropriate. Some examples:

I've reverted a bunch of it, but there's still more. I would appreciate others' opinions on whether a block is advisable, and - if so - for how long. Thanks, GABgab 16:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the latest holocaust denial trolling from the most recent IP today and warned, but given three years of similar behavior from this range, I've blocked the range for three years. Acroterion (talk) 16:43, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing the legwork on this, I should have checked the /64 when I warned. They've been engaging in subtle trolling on a wide variety of subjects for a long, long time. I've reverted a few more talkpage ... observations. Acroterion (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Disruptive editing at Rape during the Bosnian War

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User:Žurnal is trying to push an extremist Serbian nationalist agenda at the article Rape during the Bosnian War. He is attempting to demonize Bosnian muslims and glorify the actions of the Serbian nationalists during the Bosnian War. Žurnal is using "sources" such as Serbian nationalist YouTube vidoes and extremist websites like [140] to include some extremely biased edits. He has been reverted by multiple editors, including myself, but continues to edit war to include these (IMHO) disruptive edits. Could someone take a look and decide what action, if any, would be appropriate in this case? Thanks, Railfan23 (talk) 05:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Article RAPE IN BOSNIAN WAR is gebels propaganda and User:Railfan23 promote this approach. I use much more sources than Rastko like San Francisco Gate, https://timeline.com/nazis-muslim-extremists-ss-6824aee281d2, https://www.amazon.com/Himmlers-Bosnian-Division-Waffen-SS-Handschar/dp/0764301349, Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943-1945 Hardcover – September 1, 1997 Buy George Lepre, Islam and Nazi Germany's War by David Motadel. Besides rastko is not extremist site tha treasury of cultural heritage of the Balkans. In any case, if the problem in this one link is canceled, I am also installing another source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Žurnal (talkcontribs) 05:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • This seems to pretty clearly be POV-pushing by Žurnal, see this diff reverting their changes. Maybe there's an ok source in there somewhere, but there's also a whole lot of citations to youtube videos. Particularly amusing is the justification for dismissing Niall Ferguson as a "controversial" source––the source doesn't actually call him controversial, it just describes a scandal where Ferguson was caught encouraging students to harass a political opponent. There is no reason to discount his work on Serbia. signed, Rosguill talk 06:06, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]


It seems you have problem with facts. You do not get into the matter or you are malicious - it's not a nationalistic site, but I've removed it and replaced it with other credible links that have nothing to do with the Balkans. Whatever, I have hundreds of other credible sources, so whatever you are disputed tell me and explain why I will replace it with others (in English, French etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Žurnal (talkcontribs) 06:15, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

about Ferguson - some "amusement" controversies: Source WIKIPEDIA:

1. Kissinger: 1923–1968: The Idealist Kissinger The Idealist, Volume I, published in September 2015, is the first part of a planned two-part biography of Henry Kissinger based on his private papers. The book starts with a quote from a letter which Kissinger wrote in 1972. The book examines Kissinger's life from being a refugee and fleeing Germany in 1938, to serving in the US army as a "free man" in World War II, to studying at Harvard. The book also explores the history of Kissinger joining the Kennedy administration and later becoming critical of its foreign policy, to supporting Nelson Rockefeller on three failed presidential bids, to finally joining the Nixon administration. The book also includes Kissinger's early evaluation of the Vietnam war and his efforts to negotiate with the North Vietnamese in Paris. The Economist wrote in a review about The Idealist: "Mr Ferguson, a British historian also at Harvard, has in the past sometimes produced work that is rushed and uneven. Not here. Like Mr Kissinger or loathe him, this is a work of engrossing scholarship."[51] In a negative review of The Idealist, the American journalist Michael O'Donnell questioned Ferguson's interpretation of Kissinger's actions leading up to Nixon's election as President.[52] Andrew Roberts praised the book in The New York Times,[53] concluding: "Niall Ferguson already has many important, scholarly and controversial books to his credit. But if the second volume of 'Kissinger' is anywhere near as comprehensive, well written and riveting as the first, this will be his masterpiece."

2. In 1998, Ferguson published The Pity of War: Explaining World War One, which with the help of research assistants he was able to write in just five months.[15][16] This is an analytic account of what Ferguson considered to be the ten great myths of the Great War. The book generated much controversy, particularly Ferguson's suggestion that it might have proved more beneficial for Europe if Britain had stayed out of the First World War in 1914, thereby allowing Germany to win.[57] Ferguson has argued that the British decision to intervene was what stopped a German victory in 1914–15. Furthermore, Ferguson expressed disagreement with the Sonderweg interpretation of German history championed by some German historians such as Fritz Fischer, Hans-Ulrich Wehler, Hans Mommsen and Wolfgang Mommsen, who argued that the German Empire deliberately started an aggressive war in 1914. Likewise, Ferguson has often attacked the work of the German historian Michael Stürmer, who argued that it was Germany's geographical situation in Central Europe that determined the course of German history.

3. Another controversial aspect of The Pity of War is Ferguson's use of counterfactual history also known as "speculative" or "hypothetical" history. In the book, Ferguson presents a hypothetical version of Europe being, under Imperial German domination, a peaceful, prosperous, democratic continent, without ideologies like communism or fascism.[70] In Ferguson's view, had Germany won World War I, then the lives of millions would have been saved, something like the European Union would have been founded in 1914, and Britain would have remained an empire as well as the world's dominant financial power.[70]

4. Ferguson sometimes champions counterfactual history, also known as "speculative" or "hypothetical" history, and edited a collection of essays, titled Virtual History: Alternatives and Counterfactuals (1997), exploring the subject. Ferguson likes to imagine alternative outcomes as a way of stressing the contingent aspects of history. For Ferguson, great forces don't make history; individuals do, and nothing is predetermined. Thus, for Ferguson, there are no paths in history that will determine how things will work out. The world is neither progressing nor regressing; only the actions of individuals determine whether we will live in a better or worse world. His championing of the method has been controversial within the field.[80] In a 2011 review of Ferguson's book Civilization: The West and the Rest, Noel Malcolm (Senior Research Fellow in History at All Souls College at Oxford University) stated that: "Students may find this an intriguing introduction to a wide range of human history; but they will get an odd idea of how historical argument is to be conducted, if they learn it from this book."[81]


question: IS IT ENOUGH CREDIBLE? — Preceding

IS THIS POV?

aND QUICK NOTIONS - If you are lazy to watch and evaluate some You tube lectures from Noah Chomsky I can post transcript or another sources. If the Chomsky, Effraim Zuroff are not credible enough?


unsigned comment added by Žurnal (talkcontribs) 06:20, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
[reply]

I just wanted to give a comment on this, and please don't kill the messanger. Some of Žurnal's sources are valid. The most important thing is style, in my mind. The way the last entry was formulated may look like finding reasons to okay the event(s), which must be changed, with some of the sources kept. The wounds from those terrible events are still fresh and any POV which is not giving the highest number of victims or sources from Serbian or "pro-Serbian" medias/authors are mostly dissmised as biased, which is often not the case. That is not NPOV, which is a must. Ferguson should remain a part of the article if he is precisely cited and his views neutrally presented. P.S: Žurnal, I think it would be good for you to register on Wikipedia. That is just my advice. Mm.srb (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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The period IP

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Blue period added by IP.
Has anyone else seen the period IP yet? And, no, EEng, I don't mean that kind of period. It's an IP that unnecessarily adds periods or adds them in awkward places.
Period added by IP in awkward place
I first saw the IP on July 6th. The person controlling it was using the 2401:4900:35F3:5D4B:1:1:DF10:62D0 IP. Right now, that person is using the 2401:4900:35F0:E5FC:1:1:E592:186A IP. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Special:Contributions/2401:4900:35f0::/44 range blocked for 31 hours. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:36, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, NinjaRobotPirate. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And thus ended the blue period period. Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:51, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Bomber7600

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Clearly fighting to think he’s Right without thinking about the facts provided — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.54.163.113 (talk) 02:25, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's unlikely you're going to get any action on this if you don't describe the problem a little more thoroughly, and provide some diffs to illustrate the problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
it’s mainly happening on these pages

He seems to disagree with the sources provided and only giving his view based on facts that are made up. He also seems to be going back and forth with other users and isn’t giving the sources a chance — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.54.163.113 (talk) 02:44, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From this thread and this one at AN it seems the IP reports editors that they are having a disagreement with rather than working through a WP:RFC. MarnetteDTalk 02:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think that they will respond well to the RFC, they seem to fight back too many times — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.54.163.113 (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
184.54.163.113, ANI is for urgent, behavioral issues, where editors are being disruptive. Disagreeing on article sources should be discussed on the article talk page or you can use dispute resolution pages. Just disagreeing with other editors will not lead to sanctions on that editor. Wikipedia requires you to try to work out your differences, as aggravating as that can be. So far, it's worked out pretty well. LizRead! Talk! 03:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well can you help with starting that discussion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.54.163.113 (talk) 03:23, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can start discussions at Talk:The King's Man and/or Talk:List of 20th Century Fox films (2000–present) in exactly the same way that you started the discussion here. There's no need for you to ask anyone else to do so. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:21, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I gave a warning for unsourced edits via WPRFPP. I will notify of this discussion. Dlohcierekim (talk) 03:58, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that the original poster of this discussion has been checkuser blocked, so it would be good if someone who knows how could close this. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Promotional account Myzeb83

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Myzeb83 (talk · contribs) appears to be here for the purpose of promoting the company "Research Snipers RS-Tech", and not to help build an encyclopedia. Their sandbox page was deleted last year under WP:CSD#G11, and they were warned on their talk page about blatant advertising. But they seem to have immediately re-created the sandbox page with promotional material. Though they have not been very active, all their edits have been to insert citations or external links to the company's website, or to create the declined submission Draft:RS-NEWS - with the exception of their latest edit which inserted what appears to be a promotional citation of a travel website. --IamNotU (talk) 14:34, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@IamNotU: Thanks for bringing this to attention. Though the account has not been active, I've removed the sandbox pages as promotional, and have blocked the account. I JethroBT drop me a line 15:03, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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User 82.27.90.157.

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See subject line. User left a threatening sounding message on my talk page and is edit warring on a page. If someone could get him/her to stop this....that would be helpful.Rja13ww33 (talk) 17:58, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rja13ww33#Michael_Ruppert

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking&action=history

No opinion on the content issue, but it's more than a bit tough to AGF in an IP that is edit warring on Allegations of CIA drug trafficking over something that is under discussion on the talk page, posts "Your identity and location have been noted" on a user's talk page, and calls him or her a CIA operative posting disinformation in an edit summary. Meters (talk) 18:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Warned IP for edit warring and pointed them to WP:NPA to start off with. Meters (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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WP:MRV

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Hey guys! There's a contentious WP:MRV discussion that's gone on for well over a month. (I'm not sure why it's contentious, but hoo boy it is.)

I would love it if someone would close it! Red Slash 18:43, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have WP:ANRFC for this, and it's already listed there. Compassionate727 (T·C) 19:30, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Edit-summary removed

My edit summary has been deleted here. It was about WP:INTEGRITY policy and providing URLs for editors viewing the revision page. It would be useful for informing the editors regarding the removal. Puduḫepa 12:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was deleted by User:El C. He'd be the best one to tell you why - is it possible that you had linked to some sort of WP:COPYVIO? ST47 (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The url filled the entire edit summary field in and was therefore skewing the page margins. Sorry for the inconvenience. El_C 12:59, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do I have an option to rewrite the edit summary? It was a mass-removal that needs an explanation. Puduḫepa 13:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hidden note in the article or a talk page note would do. El_C 13:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just out of curiosity, is it normal to use revision deletion for aesthetic reasons such as this? If edit summaries that fill the entire edit summary field are so problematic that they must be hidden, why aren't edit summaries limited to a shorter length? Peacock (talk) 13:05, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's more for utility than aesthetics. Anyway, usually, there's spaces in lengthy edit summaries that fill the edit summary field, so the margins are unaffected. I see this happening maybe once every few months, so I don't think it's an issue that requires a systemic solution to. El_C 13:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm looking at WP:REVDEL, and I don't see this as falling within policy. REVDEL is for bad things, not for petty annoying things. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:05, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well done to whoever removed the disruptive edsum. That sort of thing makes the screen on this device impossible to read. Keep up the good work. Roxy, the dog. wooF 15:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't annoy me. But, indeed, it can have issues pertaining to readability, so the rare times I see it I revdel it as RD6. El_C 16:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a shame the software allows edit summaries that ruin readability. The need for readability trumps many other considerations. Good Revdel. Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how this meets WP:CRD. RD6 is not a hide things that annoy your or others criteria. The edit summary was not disruptive – it just contained long links. This was not correction of clear and obvious unintended mistakes in previous redactions, changes to redaction based upon communal discussion and clear consensus, adding information to the delete logs, [or] converting traditional selective deleted edits to RevisionDelete. — JJMC89(T·C) 17:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to recall some goofing around when it was discovered that the edit summary field had been expanded, with some users adding a whole massive long string of emojis in the edit summary field, and those were deleted.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd guess they were hidden for being purely disruptive, which is not the case here. — JJMC89(T·C) 18:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure about all that, but distorting the interface for some devices is a problem that revdel solves. El_C 19:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should add "breaks the user interface" to rev-delable things. Anyway, I've started a conversation at WT:REVDEL#Breaking the user interface. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 19:10, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Adding it to cover the rare instance in which it would be applicable is pure bureaucracy when it's already covered by this overarching policy.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 19:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The distortion (as you call it) is not something that should be solved by hiding a perfectly valid and useful edit summary. (More on the policy talk page) — JJMC89 (T·C) 22:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it would be better to just use a null edit instead of revdel. Again, it just happens so infrequently, I've never given it much thought. But, anyway, that does sounds like it would satisfy both sides of the dispute. El_C 01:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just copy what I said at WT:REVDEL. This isn't a big deal. The community has become significantly more comfortable with the RevisionDelete extension since it was introduced, and we do have ambiguous lines in the policy for stuff like this. Doing this is not a big deal, and given that we've become more liberal with use of the tool over time, it was reasonable to assume that the community wouldn't mind this as a technical deletion. I wouldn't have done it, but I also don't think it was a bad revdel. It's not a big deal, and doesn't happen that often. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC) While I can certainly imagine that we would want to revdelete unnecessarily long and disruptive edit summaries, I don't agree that this summary should stay deleted - the editor was merely linking to sources to justify their edit. That is certainly a rational reason for a longer-than-usual edit summary and that it skews the page margins is not such an overwhelming issue that we'd hide the edit rationale for it. If it was a joke edit summary or the like I might see a revdel reason, but not here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that the editor who did this at least has the notion that it is a problem, just as the hidden box at the top of this discussion is. It's a problem with a very simple solution: format the damn link! Now I know this doesn't solve the rev del question and you can't edit an edit summary, but going forward, at least it will prevent re-occuance. John from Idegon (talk) 18:16, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:POV-pushing in far-right related articles

45.50.57.253 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been pushing their POV into a serious of contentious articles, such as Far-right politics in Australia and United Patriots Front. They have been repeatedly warned for disruptive editing, edit warring and POV-pushing. After the most recent final warning [141] they apologised [142]. However, they have continued to make extremely contentious edits from a far-right political perspective on articles such as 2017 Fresno shootings and 2016 shooting of Baton Rouge police officers. These appear to me to be POV-psuhing and are unsourced. Could an uninvolved admin take a look and see if specific action should be taken? Many thanks, Railfan23 (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I blocked the user for 31h--Ymblanter (talk) 12:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Railfan23 (talk) 12:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fairly confident the IP is Ck4829 (talk · contribs) who is indefinitely blocked. He is also using a ton of IPv6 addresses within the 2605:E000:A44D:9200:0:0:0:0/47 range. He has been continuing the same categorization that got Ck4829 blocked (although not all of them are BLP violations). I have filed a SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ck4829. --Pudeo (talk) 17:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTHERE & WP:DISRUPT: User:Gregnator

Gregnator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. They make personal attacks/uncivil comments on article talk pages, using them as a forum.12 The first link is also a case of refusal to "get the point", as they once again continue a discussion with the same viewpoint, despite there being clear consensus against that viewpoint. A look in their contributions show they are solely here to push their (right-wing) POV and are being disruptive. Because the user is clearly WP:NOTHERE, I request an indefinite block. --MrClog (talk) 14:48, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a false statement of fact. I have in the past clearly pointed out that my political leaning is left-wing/Liberal. On the Forum for Democracy page, MrClog has repeatedly shown a negative bias towards the Wikipage he/she is contributing to. [1] Not only does MrClog ignore evidence when presented, he/she continues to push a left-wing POV. Clogg uses sources which uses the term "far-right", but do not tell the reader why they call that party "far-right." As seen in on the "Far-Right" politics section [2] there is a clear meaning behind "far-right." One of the sources used is a hyper-partisan far-left organization, which even talk about why Forum for Democracy is not far-right. Objectivity and neutrality are on key, and MrClog has not shown him/herself as objective or neutral on the topic of Forum for Democracy. I do apologise for the unprofessional and uncivil anger voiced on the Forum for Democracy page, but I do accept false statements about me. This could've been resolved through my own talk page, but Mrclog has shown that he/she is not here to talk, but rather to get anyone blocked and banned who do not share their point of view, which goes against what Wikipedia (used to) stand(s) for. Gregnator (talk) 16:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not intend to create any threaded discussion here, so this will be my last post here unless an admin asks a question, but do note that this is once again a case of refusal to "get the point". Most of Gregnator's comments just repeat the arguments they already made at Talk:Forum for Democracy, and there simply is consensus against their viewpoint. I do not expect the admins to rule on this content issue (whether Forum for Democracy should be labelled as "Right-wing to far-right"), because the community already did through a RfC (where the editor also participated in). This refusal to "get the point" and usage of a noticeboard for behavioural problems to accuse me of not being neutral and objective (whilst the community through the RfC has agreed that the text I proposed was the neutral version) show that they do not intent to finally get the point and move on from an already closed discussion. --MrClog (talk) 17:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Gregnator, you are behaving too aggressively, with exclamations such as "pathetic," "a joke" and "partisan bullshit." You need to start conducting yourself in a more professional, understated manner. Stick to the substance. This sort of conduct fosters the very toxic environment we are tying to curtail on AP topics. El_C 17:52, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hammelsmith

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Adding informations from unreliable sources. [143],[144], [145] Adding information which contradicts those in citations.[146],[147]. Adding WP:OR and WP: synthesis.[148] He also deletes the content from the well cited sources to his convenience and cherry picking the content to push his point of view.[149] Warned him before that if he continues his disruption he will be taken to ANI and it seems that he wishes to continue it A lot of users also pointed out these things over the days, [150], [151]. But he is still continuing with his WP:Advocacy Michael Jackson related articles [152]. Directions of senior editors to revert the edits made in pages and reach consensus by discussing in talk pages has also been ignored.[153],[154],[[155] During debates, he usually posts his opinions and turns talk pages into WP:FORUM. Also prefers to edit war about the things where no one else would ever agree with him and he reverts until there are multiple editors to revert him.This user also noted for spamming and WP:Votestacking on different users talk pages. [156], [157] ,[158],[159], [160],[161],[162], [163],[164]. These [165] ,[166],[167], [168],[169] activities shows that this user have some kind of "conflict of interest" in this subject and its proving that they are WP:NOTHERE. His actions warrant a topic ban or a permanent block".Pinging @Moxy:, @Flyer22 Reborn:, @SNUGGUMS:, @Partytemple:, @Israell: who all know this story already. --Akhiljaxxn (talk) 11:52, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment while these pertain to the same page, I'm guessing you meant to say WP:NOTHERE (where someone IS NOT here to contribute constructively) instead of WP:HERE (where someone IS here to contribute constructively). In any case, I do agree that this user has made problematic edits, and support a topic ban on Michael Jackson articles. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:01, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out the error.--Akhiljaxxn (talk) 12:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When there is a dispute and need for consensus, I only ask for a vote. I've never asked anyone to just vote in my favour. I admit that I am ignorant about some rules and policies, but all the edits I make are done in good faith and in the spirit of improving an article. I only want to help. If I have made grievous errors, I'm happy to listen and learn from my mistakes. Regards & Best, Hammelsmith (talk) 20:16, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think your deliberate deception can be considered as good faith. You need to read WP:AGF is not a suicide pact, WP:CIR and WP:CHERRYPICK. You are only here for your WP:PROPAGANDA.Your edits and your comments on talk pages hence prove that. --Akhiljaxxn (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Hammelsmith has displayed poor judgment on articles about Michael Jackson. Recent contribution to Talk:Michael Jackson suggests he didn't read the article but still argues the sentence should be there, which was the problem we were addressing since the beginning. —Partytemple (talk) 21:15, 28 June 2019 (UTC) Support topic ban. Partytemple (talk) 04:34, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hammelsmith once wrote "I think a consensus has been reached and I do accept that, although I am heartbroken." after consensus was reached to exclude a list of accusers from the 'Renewed sexual abuse allegations' section of the main Michael Jackson article. Why would they be heartbroken about it? This shows strong bias. Israell (talk) 23:16, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support I support Akhiljaxxn's request (topic ban on Michael Jackson articles). Israell (talk) 04:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hammelsmith is still continuing with his edits despite the issue being on this Administrators Notice Board. He has been warned by SNUGGUMS and asked refrain from his contentious changes. Israell (talk) 06:15, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hammelsmith continues to defend and use unreliable sources and distorting facts according to his opinion of Michael Jackson. Partytemple (talk) 18:37, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry you all feel these terrible things about me, I really am. Believe me, I'm always conscious that other editors have different viewpoints and I am respectful of that. I can only say that I don't agree that I practice "deliberate deception", I just hope for a speedy consensus without fighting with people. I'm not that kind of person. I'm doing my best to make quality edits and if I make a mistake or source a reference poorly, I'm happy to own up to it. Best to you, Hammelsmith (talk) 20:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that I "feel terrible things" about you, but that I think you are unable to edit without bias and tend to clutter talk pages with WP:FORUM. You can continue to feel like the victim all you want, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that your edits are disruptive. Partytemple (talk) 21:17, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Popcornduff has the following issue w/ Hammelsmith: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hammelsmith&diff=904159035&oldid=903923032 Israell (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Not to sound like Trump, but there has been POV-pushing on both sides. There are Jackson articles that are a mess partly because of the editors who believe Jackson never sexually abused children and are editing from that viewpoint and partly because of the ones who believe that he did sexually abuse children and are editing from that viewpoint. The editors who are editing more neutrally on the topic, despite their personal beliefs, are being drowned out by the POV-pushers. There has also been socking going on. And the socking I've seen thus far has been from editors who believe that Jackson is innocent. As seen by this warning to Akhiljaxxn from Yamla, Akhiljaxxn has also been problematic at these articles. And I don't believe that Partytemple is a new editor. When I asked Partytemple on Partytemple's talk page if Partytemple has edited under a different Wikipedia account, Partytemple said no. I really can't support removing Hammelsmith when the other side are just as problematic. Giving one side free rein to push their POV is not something I will support. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We can't be neutral on such issues here, as legally people are innocent until proven guilty and for recently deceased persons the BLP standard will still uphold this. If it isn't all that certain if some person did something bad, then on balance the article will be quite skeptical about such claims. Count Iblis (talk) 12:15, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I follow the WP:NPOV policy, as should everyone else. That policy is how we determine balance. "Jackson is innocent" POV-pushers do not get free rein to balance an article to their liking. Neither do "Jackson is guilty" POV-pushers. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:06, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Jackson died nearly a decade ago. So to many people, his death is not "recent," even though time flies by for many of us. The topic of whether or not he is guilty is being reassessed, in part because of Leaving Neverland. We shouldn't give undue weight to Leaving Neverland, and I was clear about that at Talk:Michael Jackson. But we can't ignore the reassessment and we shouldn't frame articles like 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson in a way that makes it seem like he couldn't possibly have been guilty or in a way that goes beyond due weight with regard to casting doubt on child sexual abuse having occurred. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:28, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hammelsmith has distorted or defended distortions of statements of living people who commented on Jackson as well as Jackson's own words. Jackson can't be both a pedophile and not a pedophile at the same time. To say there should be totally even representation is to make mockery of reality and invite tabloid nonsense—and definitely not NPOV, which is objectivity and commitment to stating facts rather than forming an opinion. The fact is Jackson was found not guilty for all the accusations made against him. If you don't like that statement, well then tough titties, because those are the sources we can cite. It's also still highly unethical to accuse someone of a serious crime without substantial evidence whether they are dead or alive. Tabloids don't belong in WP. Citing sources dishonestly is a serious red flag. These are the reasons why Hammelsmith is listed here. —Partytemple (talk) 19:58, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No one stated anything about "both a pedophile and not a pedophile at the same time." No one stated anything about "totally even representation." What is "the reality" as far as Jackson's guilt goes is your opinion. As is clear by the responses to Leaving Neverland, whether or not Jackson is guilty is an opinion. O. J. Simpson was found not guilty. But as is clear in the O. J. Simpson trial article, most people do not think he's innocent; so we cover it. Many black people who originally found the "not guilty" verdict for Simpson just no longer find it just. It's a cultural matter that should be covered on Wikipedia. The key is WP:Due weight. Save your "tough titties" take for someone else. Then again, some here might find it sexist. Luckily for you, I don't mind such language. I'm not excusing Hammelsmith's problematic editing, but I'm not going to act like those who share Hammelsmith's views are the only ones who have been problematic. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you're not going to discuss or challenge anything precisely about Hammelsmith and his/her behavior, don't derail this thread into talking about other user's editing problems. If you genuinely have issues with other users, you need to make a different thread. Also, "tough titties" is a common idiom. "Luckily for you" implies intimidation. If you're going to call me a sexist, you should just do it without these pointless threats and digressions. And this account is not a sockpuppet, as much as you accuse me of being one without evidence. Partytemple (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're not new. Surely, you know that everyone's behavior is under scrutiny at ANI. Noting that the other side is just as problematic, if not more so, is a topic for discussion at ANI. It's not derailing any thread. I didn't call you a sexist. I also didn't call you a sock. I said you are not new. But as seen below, you very well know why an experienced editor such as myself, who has seen and reported more socks than I can remember, including those who claimed they weren't socks, would think that you are a sock. You can continue to claim that you are new, but I don't have to buy it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've started a lot of irrelevant topics in this thread (e.g. the rant about Akhiljaxxn's editing problems and O.J. and black people). But I'd like to bring this back to your core reasons why you don't support Hammelsmith's topic ban. You said, "I really can't support removing Hammelsmith when the other side are just as problematic." This means you'll be in favor of disruptive editing if "both sides" of the argument are engaging in it, or at the very least you won't stop disruptive editing when you have the opportunity to and when both sides are doing it. You're also accusing other users of doing equal amounts of disruptive editing or disruptive editing of equal magnitude, but you haven't proved that either. I can't recall anyone else distorting facts and using tabloids on Jackson related articles lately other than Hammelsmith. Please stop pointing your finger around aimlessly. Partytemple (talk) 01:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of irrelevant topics in this thread? No. And do I need to repeat myself? I think I do: "everyone's behavior is under scrutiny at ANI. Noting that the other side is just as problematic, if not more so, is a topic for discussion at ANI. It's not derailing any thread." Again, this is not something I need to tell you since you are not new. Mention of O. J. Simpson? It was provided as an example with regard to the fact that we very much do cover public opinion with due weight. Black people? As made clear in the lead of that article, "A poll of Los Angeles County residents showed that most African Americans felt that justice had been served by the 'not guilty' verdict, while the majority of whites and Latinos expressed an opposite opinion on the matter." That trial was very racially-charged. Public opinion-wise, many black people's opinions on it have changed. Public opinion can change. Legacy can change. It's obvious that you don't like the public opinion that Jackson was a child sexual abuser, but I couldn't care less about your personal opinion. For example, I couldn't care less that you think that my comment that "I really can't support removing Hammelsmith when the other side are just as problematic" translates to "in favor of disruptive editing if 'both sides' of the argument are engaging in it, or at the very least [I] won't stop disruptive editing when [I] have the opportunity to and when both sides are doing it." No one who is familiar with my editing and mindset on Wikipedia will agree with that assessment. I, am, however, tired of seeing all of the Jackson POV-pushing, regardless of whatever side whatever person is on, which is why I took the 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson off my watchlist. I am under no obligation to take on disruptive editing; I deal with taking on more than enough of it at various Wikipedia articles. I am under no obligation to take on the role of mediator. This thread was a mess before I showed up to it, which is why, seemingly, no admin thus far has paid it any attention. But, hey, maybe one will pop in and take care of your Hammelsmith problem. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:01, 2 July 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:16, 2 July 2019 (UTC) [reply]
"Michael Jackson was a child molester" is an opinion. "Michael Jackson was found not guilty by investigators, two grand juries, and a criminal trial because of the lack of evidence" is a fact. The ones POV-pushing cannot see the difference between these two statements. This has nothing to do with "public opinion," nor O.J., nor is there a convincing plurality between the two sides as both of these statements can be heard "in public." We have sources to cite the second statement but not the first, hence we write the articles according to the second, which again is a fact. None of the articles state absolutely "Michael Jackson was not a child molester," but they frequently state that there isn't enough evidence to prove him one. The facts of what exactly happened during the investigations and trial, which the articles describe in detail, are not opinion, nor are they up to "interpretation" by "public opinion." Partytemple (talk) 04:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly, "Michael Jackson was a child molester" is a viewpoint. It's a viewpoint that more and more people (including professional critics) hold since the Leaving Neverland documentary. It is a part of his legacy, no matter who dislikes it being a part of his legacy. So we cover that viewpoint on Wikipedia. A court finding someone not guilty does not automatically silence all thought or debate. Otherwise, most people wouldn't think that Simpson is guilty, or that Casey Anthony is guilty, and many wouldn't believe that Jackson is guilty decades later (since the 1993 accusation). R. Kelly can claim what he wants, but we cover the controversy about him with regard to underage girls as well. And that includes the Surviving R. Kelly documentary. Even before Harvey Weinstein was arrested, charged with rape and other offenses, and released on bail, we covered the controversy surrounding him, and that includes having dished out spin-off articles. The "Michael Jackson was a child molester" viewpoint has everything to do with public opinion. As long as editors follow WP:Due weight appropriately on this matter, things will be fine. Hammelsmith has learning to do, just like all passionate newbies who come to Wikipedia trying to right the great wrongs do. If Hammelsmith needs a warning or a block (temporary or indefinite) by an admin, so be it. But an admin might be willing to give Hammelsmith another chance by simply issuing a warning. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:03, 3 July 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2019 (UTC) [reply]
Anyone who read the original complaint about Hammelsmith knows this is not a WP:WEIGHT issue. The Leaving Neverland article has a large section on public response to the film which includes responses in favor of the film, some of which contributed by Hammelsmith and to no objection because it follows editing policy. So there is no need for your semi-relevant rant about O.J., black people, and now Harvey Weinstein and R. Kelly—all of which you don't sound informed enough to make an intelligent opinion anyway. And this is not the place for it. Partytemple (talk) 18:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Rant about black people? LOL. I just love how you are subtly suggesting racism on my part by continuing to stress that "Flyer talked about black people," when black people are directly relevant to the Simpson topic I brought up for reasons I mentioned. As if you even know my "race"/ethnicity. And do save me any denial that you are suggesting racism on my part. I must be racist against Anthony and Weinstein, two white people, as well. If you are going to try to insult me (laughably, my intelligence of all things), then make sure your insults make sense. I have no patience for your snippy and/or passive-aggressive nonsense because I'm not stupid enough to believe your "I've had no other Wikipedia account" claim, and because I don't worship Jackson, and because I don't buy you as a neutral editor on Jackson topics, and because I'm not on board to topic ban or indefinitely block the actual newbie or actual significantly inexperienced editor -- Hammelsmith. Rants? It seems you are not familiar with reasoned discussion, in which similar cases may be compared. Trial articles or similar and how we cover them have been compared all over Wikipedia. For some, their WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments are flawed. For others, their OTHERSTUFFEXISTS are valid. As noted at WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, such arguments can be valid or invalid. In this case, you were talking about what we do and don't do on Wikipedia, as if you are the more experienced editor. Gee, I wonder why you talk like you are more experienced than me. You aren't a newbie, but I doubt that your knowledge of how this site is supposed to work is superior to mine. I pointed to other criminal and sexual abuse allegation cases as examples of what we indeed do on Wikipedia. No one stated a thing about allowing tabloid text/tabloid sources.
Moving on.... Looking at the case filed against Hammelsmith in this forum and Hammelsmith's edits, and different editors who have reverted Hammelsmith, it is partly a WP:Due weight issue. Since I spoke to Hammelsmith about poor sourcing and was pinged above because of that, it is not like I am unaware of sourcing problems that have come with Hammelsmith's editing. Looking at your arguments about Jackson (via your contributions), it's quite clear that your idea of "informed enough to make an intelligent opinion" differs starkly from mine. Unlike you, not only do I have significant knowledge of all of the cases I mentioned, I am extremely knowledgeable on child sexual abuse and rape topics (as many at this site know). But that's not relevant here unless we are going to get into talk about our personal opinions on these cases, which, of course, we shouldn't. I'm certainly not interested in Israell's commentary below about why so many people believe Jackson is guilty and that everyone was just out to get Jackson. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you've proven yourself to be a thoroughly unpleasant person with all that nonsense. You're still defending a disruptive editor by saying he's a newbie, but he's been warned several times and that's why he's here. You can continue to rant all you want; it's not going to be any less irrelevant nor illiterate than it is now. —Partytemple (talk) 20:34, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just when I thought you were done, since you edited on July 4th but didn't reply, you just had to come back here and try to get the last word. You know nothing about me to conclude that I've "proven [myself] to be a thoroughly unpleasant person with all that nonsense." That line makes not a bit of sense. A thoroughly unpleasant person because I don't believe you are a newbie, because I don't worship Jackson, because I don't buy you as a neutral editor on Jackson topics, because I brought up other criminal cases that show that we do indeed cover public perception as long as it's done right, and because I'm not on board to topic ban or indefinitely block the actual newbie or actual significantly inexperienced editor -- Hammelsmith? Not supporting you or whatever view you have is not the same thing as "defending a disruptive editor." Saying that the editor is still a newbie or relatively inexperienced is stating a fact, which many admins consider at ANI when it comes to whether or not to warn or block such an editor. Keep your "irrelevant" and "illiterate" nonsense to yourself. At this rate, you'll be brought to ANI for WP:Personal attacks. And WP:Personal attacks is clear that "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done." It speaks volumes that you couldn't hold a discussion for long without resorting to personal attacks. Or maybe it's just that this topic is just so touchy for you because it concerns Jackson. Still no excuse. And before you say that not believing that you are new is a personal attack, it isn't. Editors are very much allowed to state that they don't believe that an editor is new, and it happens all the time at ANI (where every account is scrutinized). Saying that you are a sock is different, but I never said that you are a sock. Now one might say that since I don't believe that you are new, I'm saying that you are a sock. To that, I point editors to WP:LEGITSOCK. And some have edited as IPs before getting a registered account. Again, you can say you are a newbie, but I most certainly don't have to believe it. Either way, it's time for you to move on. Like I noted before, admins seemingly aren't paying this thread any attention. And that certainly can't be blamed on me "derailing" the thread. This thread was being ignored before I showed up to it, and you didn't have to keep engaging me. You didn't even have to reply to me, as if I was gong to change my mind about you or this situation. Move on. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC) [reply]
Whatever that patch of letters written above is, it's literally unreadable without losing some sanity. Surely somewhere in there I am addressed personally and in a irate manner. This isn't the first time this user has tried intimidating me on a keyboard, nor the first time she has devoted an entire post to flaming. She also continues to accuse other people of things that aren't true and cannot be proven. She is certainly unpleasant, proven yet again, and a tenacious ranter and rambler of nonsense, too. —Partytemple (talk) 05:03, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are that desperate for the last word? Really? You came back with more irrational commentary, I see. And one interesting comment: "This isn't the first time this user has tried intimidating me on a keyboard." Admitting to having edited under a different account or as an IP? Must be, because, with you as Partytemple, there is no record of me trying to intimidate you on a keyboard. And it's a lie either way. Your latest comment is so beyond childish that I can't take you seriously. I appreciate you further displaying why this thread should be closed with no action. In fact, I might contact an admin to close it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:25, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22 Reborn has made her point, and this issue will be dealt with (without her involvement) in due time (depending on Hammelsmith's behaviour). Yes, many believe Jackson was a child sexual abuser but just as many if not more do not believe so. Detractors have a tendency to be very loud and vocal, and it may give the impression someone or something is more despised than it actually is. It's true in the fields of politics, soap operas, music, etc.

I agree w/ Partytemple that Wikipedia is not a place for endless tabloid reports. Plenty of ludicrous rumours about public figures were published, and it's a known facts tabloids sometimes pay people thousands of dollars for stories that may completely be false and libellous. Why is there a public opinion that Jackson was a sexual child molester? Because of 26 years of incessant allegations, rumours and tabloid reports (there are now hate sites as well) that went in that direction. And the current #MeToo movement encourages the public, the media, organisations and political bodies to fully believe accusers no matter what.

Did you know James Safechuck at all? No, but I know people who do. His problem is that he can’t keep his story straight. They just have a platform now and they have a movement that they’re utilizing -- a movement where we believe the victims no matter what. I can’t go with that. I agree with listening to everyone, but I don’t blindly believe anyone because that’s a dangerous place to be.[1]

Yes, quite some believe Jackson guilty, but he was never officially found so; all the rest is and will always be speculation. Israell (talk) 16:10, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your view on why many believe that Jackson is guilty is your belief. Many rabid Jackson fans, who can't even consider that Jackson might have been guilty because of their idol worship (and, yes, reliable sources have talked about this), have stated the same thing. For many, it's not about what you cited at all. And the Me Too movement is about many things, including being more willing to believe accusers/victims instead of dismissing them or acting like "no physical/direct evidence" automatically means "your story lacks credibility" or "you're lying," especially considering that most criminal cases are based on circumstantial evidence. The Me Too movement has shown times over that society believing the accusers/victims is a good thing. False accusations of rape are rare. False allegations of child sexual abuse, also a rape matter, are rare. Of course, we also live in an "innocent until proven guilty" world, and that's a good thing too. But "innocent until proven guilty" is about the law; it's not about public opinion. And, like I stated above, we do cover public opinion on Wikipedia. We do this with "Legacy" and "Public image" sections, and similar. Jackson's legacy is affected by child sexual abuse allegations. We cover it. It should be covered with due weight. Of course, tabloid sources should be avoided. No need to ping me in this section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ. It is not a belief but a plain fact. Besides reasons I've listed, the media have grossly misrepresented Jackson's sleepovers; girls and parents also took part in those sleepovers that were basically pyjama parties during which they'd all watch movies, play video games, chat, laugh and then fall asleep.[2] Members of Jackson's family such as Brandi and Taj Jackson also did partake in those sleepovers. (Brandi had been Wade Robson's girlfriend for seven years, and that includes the time the alleged abuse took place, and Robson made no mention of that in 'Leaving Neverland'.)

Jackson had a two-storey bedroom, and there were several large beds available, and he often slept on the floor. On occasions, as Brett Barnes (who still defends him) explained when he was a teen (at the time of the first allegations), Jackson would sleep on one side of the bed, and he'd sleep on the other side.

The media perverted it all into something grotesque and salacious, making it sound like there were only boys there and Jackson was sexually abusing them. I recently spoke to a friend that told me he believed Jackson was guilty just because of the bed thing. That's the very argument LaToya Jackson used when accusing her brother of child sex abuse (asking what 35 yr-old would share his bed w/ little boys and spend weeks with them).

LaToya later (repeatedly) retracted all such statements[3][4][5] (explaining her ex-husband Jack Gordon had threatened and forced her to say all those things, and that Gordon would keep her a prisoner and beat her up). Right there! Jackson's own sister was led to make such false claims, and she seemed and sounded very sincere when making those claims like she was an Oscar-winning actress![6][7] (I'm referring to those who say Wade Robson & James Safechuck could not have lied since they aren't Oscar-winning actors.)

No wonder why many people at the time believed those claims! LaToya's old allegations have just recently come back to the surface once again, and I've read comments from people (that had just seen 'Leaving Neverland') that take those old allegations as the ultimate proof they needed. Some argued she only recanted because she wanted to get back in the Jackson family's good graces... And someone even (sickly) wrote on Twitter that Jack Gordon was right to beat her up so she'd tell the truth about her "paedo" brother. I'm not making any of that up! I'm just typing this here to demonstrate how gullible some of the public (which includes public opinion) may be.

And what about that 'Hard Copy' story by Diane Dimond herself? A 15 yr-old Canadian boy from Toronto once accused Jackson of sexually molesting him and a friend, also in teenage. Though he was able to describe Neverland, it was all a lie! At the end of the news report, he admitted to have lied and made it all up! Turned out he had been coached by an adult named Rodney Allen.[8] Allen was reportedly later found guilty of child sex abuse...[9][10][11]

I have just provided evidence that abuse victim LaToya Jackson and that Toronto boy both falsely accused Michael Jackson of child sex abuse under the pressure of woman beater Jack Gordon and child sex predator Rodney Allen. Why is it so hard to believe other accusers (incl. ex-employees) may also have lied, have been pressured to lie, esp. when all those accusers were challenged and either caught lying or deemed not credible. The following article explains in detail how those Neverland insiders were deemed not credible: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-allegations-staff-friends-family

As for Jordan Chandler, he could not even tell Jackson was not circumcised after all that alleged sex abuse incl. frequent baths and masturbation sessions. Jackson's autopsy report stating he was not circumcised: http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf

The rabidness of those Jackson fans is an opinion you and others share, not a fact.

You can use rabid to describe someone who has very strong and unreasonable opinions or beliefs about a subject, especially in politics.[12]

With due research (like mine above), one can reasonably conclude that in Jackson's case, false allegations of child sex abuse are definitely not rare. Israell (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To no doubt a number of people, you just showed your rabidness with your long defense of Jackson above. And just so you know, many people (both children and adults) are protective of their sexual abusers. And for a number of reasons, including shame and/or fear. It is not uncommon for boys to deny being sexually abused, especially given notions of masculinity and the false belief that a boy or man being raped by a man makes one gay. You want to believe that every accusation against Jackson was just an "out to get him" matter, that's your belief. But I'm not interested in debating Jackson's supposed innocence or guilt on Wikipedia. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22, in my observation, Akhiljaxxn hasn't been anywhere as problematic as some implied. It is common for editors to make a few mistakes; it's the only way to learn. One editor deemed Akhiljaxxn incompetent because of his written English when it's just fine! He's actually quite good at it, and grammar/syntax mistakes can quickly and easily be fixed.

What proof socking do you have? Many of us (me included) have been on Wiki for years and contributed to non-MJ articles. None of us here is pushing POV but Hammelsmith who has constantly and repeatedly ignored warnings and kept making plenty of disruptive edits that then had to be fixed. As Partytemple explained it on a Talk page, Hammelsmith seems to believe each one of those accusers even though the very source articles challenge their credibility. Who's pushing POV?

As I pointed out, Hammelsmith once wrote "I think a consensus has been reached and I do accept that, although I am heartbroken." after consensus was reached to exclude a list of accusers from the 'Renewed sexual abuse allegations' section of the main Michael Jackson article.[13] Flyer22, why would Hammelsmith be heartbroken about it? Why would they take it so personal? That's something he himself admitted!

I, for one, am just going w/ the facts. An allegation remains an allegation and only becomes a fact when there is sufficient evidence, especially evidence produced in a court of law followed by a guilty verdict. As for the 1993 allegaions, two grand juries refused to indict Jackson for a reason—lack of evidence. It's not the article's mission to imply that Jackson could have been guilty; it just needs to state the facts—there were allegations, here are the details, and two grand juries refused to indict due to lack of evidence. Israell (talk) 14:48, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22 Reborn, I've been neutral for a few years, now. I was blocked for sockpuppetry in 2017. But I was later unblocked since I convinced the admins that I was unaware of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and assured them that I would refrain from indulging in such activity. Since then, I have never been involved in any such activity. But a few months ago, Yamla asked me to refrain from making these kinds of edits [170][171]. The edits I made were reinstated by other user, even though they were later removed by another senior editor. I haven't edited that page since then and removed it from my watchlist. It is not fair to hold what I did in 2017 against me. Since then, I've been trying to learn more about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and I became an administrator of the Malayalam Wikipedia. I would like to ask you to show me the problematic edits that you believe I have made to Michael Jackson-related articles since August 2017. If you show me that I made any problematic edits that violate our WP:NPOV policy, I'll simply stop editing Jackson-related articles. I have other things to do (here and elsewhere) than editing those pages. I understand from your words that you believe Partytemple to be my sockpuppet. No, he isn't, and I welcome a sockpuppetry investigation in this regard.-- Akhiljaxxn (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I stated nothing about that editor being your sockpuppet. Nor was I implying that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the points that everyone is making. I suppose the most significant issue is doubt. I did happen to know some reported facts that would introduce this, so I started editing. Certainly some of my edits have been less than perfect and I apologize for offending peoples' deeply held beliefs if it caused you anger or hurt. Absolutely Wiki is not the place for POV pushing and that is part of what makes this resource so important. Good faith comrades. Best, Hammelsmith (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I agree with Israell that the ones doing a lot of POV-pushing are those who tacitly, or sometimes openly, believe Jackson is guilty of child molestation but are never able to provide a source that claims or proves this without going to the tabloids or distorting a reliable source. This is deeply sinister and dishonest. Flyer22 Reborn is still claiming she finds POV-pushing on both sides, but I don't see it and other users here agree with me. Partytemple (talk) 21:43, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the POV-pushing from the "Jackson is great side" has been dealt with, such as this case I cited above. Other, less problematic POV-pushing persists. Your "other users here agree with me" claim consists of Akhiljaxxn (a known "Jackson is great" POV-pusher) and Israell. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I voted not in favor of adding a section called "Discrepancy" which I believe was originally submitted by Awardmaniac. I can't speak for other editors. I do not think that what Awardmaniac wrote was impartial enough and it read like OR, hence I altered the "Jackson supporters" section in the Leaving Neverland article into "Issues regarding credibility and Jackson supporters" to provide a more impartial representation for those who disagree with the film, meaning it wouldn't sound like WP is arguing against the film but a section of the public is. I think Israell agreed with me at the end there. So no, I didn't push that section forward for the same reasons I disagree with some of Hammelsmith's edits, a disruptive editor which you tried defending. Partytemple (talk) 19:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"A disruptive editor which [I] tried defending"? Sighs. Do not act like I've supported any disruptive or other problematic edits by Hammelsmith. Not supporting a call to topic ban or block Hammelsmith -- an actual newbie or actual significantly inexperienced edior who is still learning -- is not the same thing as supporting that editor. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. WP is not a soapbox for tabloid media, rumor mongering, or any other kind of unreliable source, many of which are blacklisted or deprecated from WP. The sources that write salacious stories about Jackson's alleged pedophilia prove to be in this category. I have not read a reliable source that outright says or proves Jackson was a child molester. I have read many reports on simply the facts of the allegations, investigations, lawsuits, etc. Accusing someone of a serious crime such as pedophilia without credible reason is highly unethical and potentially libelous. First, the tabloids were introduced to Jackson related articles as supposedly reliable sources. Now, Hammelsmith has tried to distort or manipulate an actual reliable source into something to fit his beliefs about Jackson. This is unacceptable in any other article on WP and repeated offense will be duly reported. The fact that we are having this discussion about reliable sources proves Charles Thomson right. Perhaps Jackson was indeed a victim of tabloid smearing. As for Fly22 Reborn who thinks I'm a sockpuppet, presumably because he thinks I'm too familiar with WP for a newbie, no, I am not a sockpuppet. —Partytemple (talk) 19:04, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Presumably because he thinks I'm too familiar with WP for a newbie." Well, you said it. And I'm female, by the way. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Everything you write is correct, except that I have never tried to "distort or manipulate an actual reliable source." I'm sorry, but that is your opinion. I am happy to discuss sources and work with absolutely anyone to improve an article without prejudice. Good faith comrades. Best, Hammelsmith (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your errors in editing are already listed above. I'm not absolutely certain you're doing it intentionally, but they are in effect distortions and misrepresentations of the source article. WP:CIR. Partytemple (talk) 20:30, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed one-way IBAN for Arianewiki1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I couldn't tell you why, but Arianewiki1 has had it in for this editor, from the get-go and for approaching two years now. Their first interaction appears to have been on Plasma (physics) in September 2017, within a week or so of Attic Salt creating their account. Arianewiki1 more or less immediately jumped to bullying, casting aspersions, attacks, and requests for administrative action ie "those who have aimed to cause disruption", this baseless sockpuppetry investigation, openly mocking the newbie's confusion, reverting and striking and striking again and reverting again and involved-closing and involved-closing again their attempt at dispute resolution, and attempting to enforce the temporary retirement induced by Arianewiki1's own assaults via reversion on Attic Salt's user page. This was all within two weeks of Attic Salt's start here.

So it goes on, month after month with frivolous accusations, unnecessary posts to noticeboards, and invitations that they quit editing:

Extended content

Following a final warning, [172] and their acknowledgement of the warning, user's very next article talk space edit was to continue the same attacks by accusing Attic Salt of violating WP:POINT, [173]. Enough is enough. I am proposing that a one-way IBAN be applied to Arianewiki1 to prevent additional attacks on Attic Salt.

Since both editors work in similar topic areas, I realize the proposed restriction on Arianewiki1 will be significant. Less significant, though, than a site ban, which I view as the only other viable alternative at this point.

Notifications: [174], [175]. VQuakr (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. [176] is alarming, and that it comes immediately after this exchange suggests to me that nothing less than an IBAN will address this pattern of harassment. ST47 (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - if not Attic Salt it will be someone else. Have a look at Talk:Rigel for starters. Also look at interactions with Lithopsian. I support this BTW. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:58, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Some of the diffs were, imho, not particularly uncivil, and not even bad enough to factor into my calculation. However the aggressiveness of things like dropping a final warning while simultaneously demanding they leave him alone, along with abuse of RfCs and repeated involved closings, show both personal hostility and abusively mis-using process against Ariane Nosebagbear (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Just how many restrictions can we layer upon an editor without banning them? I recall they are already under restrictions as a condition from lifting their last indef ban. And we've seen them here at ANI repeatedly this year, drumming up drama which goes nowhere. Attic Salt has certainly received a lot of abuse, but that seems mostly an indication of survivability on Attic Salt's part. (As an aside, isn't this T&S's remit these days?) Tarl N. (discuss) 21:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Tarl N.: I don't see anything at WP:EDR. ST47 (talk) 22:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, they're under 1RR and BLP probation. I think that's supposed to get logged at EDR for searchability, but in any event, it doesn't look like they've violated it? Are you proposing a ban? ST47 (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • If we're at the point of taking further action against Arianewiki1, I would suggest a ban, not just an IBAN for one of their targets. I've made a point of avoiding them this year, to the point of walking away from discussions when they drop in. They are knowledgeable in their field, but don't seem to understand "collaborate". It's their way or no way - now that edit wars have been precluded, it seems venom and ANI drama substitute as techniques to achieve victories. Tarl N. (discuss) 22:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As with others, I'm not certain this is the best solution or enough. For starters we probably should include an iban on Arianewiki1 against Lithsopian at a minimum since as per my comment in Arianewiki1's most recent thread Lithsopian seems to be just as much a target of Arianewiki1 as Attic Salt. But I wonder whether even that will be enough. That said I would support this if nothing else is proposed, as another step in trying to convince Arianewiki1 that they seriously need to modify their behaviour if they are going to edit here. 06:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk)
After more consideration, I've decided to support the cban as my preferred option with the one way iban as my second choice. I'd also support a one way iban on Arianewiki1 against interactions with Lithsopian. Nil Einne (talk) 00:28, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ban. Looking over the provided diffs, Arianewiki1 clearly has a serious attitude problem, and an IBAN will not cut it. Someone else besides Attic Salt will definitely be the recipient of this. - DoubleCross (talk) 06:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have invited Arianewiki1 to join this discussion. They've not edited since June 29. Taking what I have read here at face value, it's obvious an IBAN may not be enough. We will need some honest and frank discussion and some answers. Soon. Dlohcierekim (talk), admin, renamer 07:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ban First Litopsian, now Attic Salt, next someone else. A community ban is probably insufficient for this type of aggression but it’s the best we can do unless Arianewiki1 wants to harass someone who has high-level connections at the WMF. 207.38.146.86 (talk) 13:16, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ban, or failing that the one-way IBAN. Per WP:CIR, where "C" might be replaced by "collaboration". The type of collaboration Arianewiki1 envisions is well-represented by their answer to that thread.
I would add to the file Attic Salt's talk page, starting here, where I nudge them toward kicking Arianewiki1 off their talk page (with the least inflammatory wording I found) and they do so. This diff and that diff are clear violations of WP:NOBAN to my eyes; the first one was immediately after the talk page ban and might be excused as a hot-temper edit, the second one not so much. I would also argue that this and that are fairly spurious warnings chosen to get around the talk page ban. The most generous explanation is that Arianewiki1 thinks Attic Salt and me (at least) are conspiring against them and invented a non-existing rule of "stay off someone's talk page when they ask you to", so they decided to ignore that rule without asking for clarification.
The problem with an IBAN (beyond possible gaming / "finding another victim") is that Arianewiki1 edit pretty much only topics in which Attic Salt edits as well (astronomy) so the IBAN would severly constrain their ability to contribute. As the IBAN is one-way, and Arianewiki1 does not produce stellar (no pun intended) content, the best-case scenario is a cycle of Arianewiki1 edits some article, Attic Salt corrects something they wrote, then Arianewiki1 cannot edit again due to the IBAN; rince and repeat until all astronomy articles have been exhausted, which would probably not take that much time. I believe we do not dish out TBAN for problematic editors who have only one area of editing, we ban them outright - same thing here. TigraanClick here to contact me 09:14, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Tigraan: I've read your response here and this needs much better clarification. The point about this edit[177] regarding the WP:NOBAN is somewhat trivial, only because I didn't understand the intention to why they didn't consider possible alternatives.
However, you point with this edit is quite possibly valid[178]. My understanding was that notifications were OK. The cause was this rv edit[179], which I reverted.[180] Knowing I was on 1RR, I wanted Attic Salt to be informed that I did so with that notice. I was particular annoyed with this, because they had seemingly followed me to directly to this page. As pointed out below in Response 2: " Velocity article about a month ago with this edit here[181], which you reverted here just 1 hour 16 minutes here[182]. (VQuakr too was involved here[183] and here[184], and they also had not previously edited this page.) I first edited this Velocity page here[185] on 16th January 2016 and made 20 edits prior to either of them.) " Attic Salt dismissively responded here [186]. (they should have done this on the article's talkpage), especially saying "Regarding your accusation of unconstructive editing, consider what you write. It isn't very good." They also claim "The sentence needs to be reconstructed if you want to work in "or vector". Maybe you could do that." (then why not fix it instead of an rv edit?) Yes. I should not have responded, a simple mistake that will now likely cost me dearly. I have to openly give my apologies to Attic Salt for doing that. (How do I do that without breaking policy? )
As for the "spurious warnings" the were regarding notices of templates the were active is on going edits of article pages, notifying what I had done. The Rigel on was I think because there was a tagging problem/bug in the software as discussed here User talk:Arianewiki1#Templates on Rigel. I thought it proper to help understand the edit in case of rv.
You state: "Arianewiki1 thinks Attic Salt and me (at least) are conspiring against them…" I have no problem with you at all, and I cannot recall interaction very often. (I pinged you after Attic Salt's 'ban' to be open in what I said. Din't think it a problem.) Attic Salt isn't necessarily conspiring, they are likely looking for faults to make anothee point.
A concern I do have however, is that under User talk:Attic Salt#Supernova edit clash is acting outside article pages and having discussions where I cannot respond because of WP:NOBAN. (I'm pretty aggrieved that I pointed out the supernova nucleosynthesis to them, fixing some of that article's structure[187], which Attic Salt made some minor fixes[188] I even added an explanation of what I did on the talkpage.[189] I wrote: "IMO, this article is far too complex and looks like original research.", but the discussion to improve was on Attic Salt's talkpage. Enough clarification?
As for the rest, your logic is fine, however the bigger issue is the differences in the level of knowledge. e.g. The astronomical word and meaning of "dredge" or "dredging", they revert the edit, you explain it on the page then won't listen nor acknowledge the mistake. (Thinking about it, I cannot seem to recall any positive encouragement at all. If I make an obvious error, I usually admit that. e.g. Here[190] or thank editors. They have never seemingly posted to my talkpage.) Simply the problem is balancing context versus "stellar content." Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:14, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Attic Salt. The comment made by Trigaan regarding my Velocity article response on your talkpage should not have occurred. It was a mistake to do that there, so my sincere apologies for doing that. I have been trying my best to avoid such interaction as you have requested. Why I did that there I can't explain, except perhaps I thought I was somewhere else, like the article's talkpage. Sorry. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:27, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • SUPPORT COUNTER SANCTION : Attic Salt : Attic Salt has admitted to harassment (below) in saying:"Having said this, I have, yes, viewed your editing history and noted some of the articles you've edited. Honestly, I don't think this is unusual. In this way I found one of your edits at velocity to be problematic, [191]. I undid it [192], and then you undid that [193], You accused then me of vandalism and not understanding textbook material [194], though I think it comes down to you not writing clearly. The problematic edit was then undone by VQuaker [195]."
This is by, their own words is plainly wikihounding, which states; "Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.". Saying "Honestly, I don't think this is unusual." It is against policy, and they were told that multiple times. Arianewiki1 in their other responses below confirm this before Attic Salt made this statement,
Evidence and Consequences

HOW HOUNDING IS DAMAGING

Seeing a User 1's recent edit in an article found by tracking them, User 2 going to the same article, but modifying an unrelated part of the article to get User 1's attention, then later go to User 1's first edit and making a modification to it in the hope that User 1's responds. If User 1 reverts it, User 2 jumps in with another revert or modification, then makes as much disruption as possible. (Easier if User 1 is on an editing restriction)

Other outside Users then see the disruption, seeing User 1 responses, then judges them by their reaction. If this escalates, User 2 achieves their goal by not only gaining other User's support for them, but further inhibiting User 1's contribution. Furthermore, User 2 then makes other changes, frustrating User 1 even more, they then go away for awhile, waiting for User 1 to make another edit in the same article, and finding User 2 modifying it again (or another part) supported by other Users who now think User 1 might be a troublemaker.

When things finally get to a crescendo (nearing some level of edit warring or possible sanction) User 2 suddenly goes away, and go to another article page that User 1 edits, and repeats the cycle, often within several weeks or months.

This all started because just one User has tracking another. Every time, User 1 either becomes frustrated, made out as being disruptive, makes a mistake and is blocked or banned, or in the end, gives up contributing altogether. If isolated, they are claimed to be not collaborating or notthere.

Evidence suggests the methods are being employed here by Attic Salt :

Example 1: On Supernova by this edit[196] (an IP edit that wasn't correct nor cited in the reference), this innocuous edit then appears here, an d under Talk:Supernova#The "bulk" of all elements? with the accusation ownership, then the main article edit here[197], followed by these edits[198] In this section they say: "Anyway, I think Arianewiki1's sentence either needs to be fixed or removed." I modify it here[199], it is reverted in the next edit by another user here[200] (claimed because "not what the sources say, and of course complete rubbish", then the article's chaos begins - all because a User tracked me to a page they never edited before just because I restored an IPs deletion.

Example 2: In the article Ion on 4th December 2017 10:07, I did these edits[201], but the next day on 5th December 2015 11:01 later turn up on the page with this edit here[202]. Anyone else looking at this appears utterly trivial, but it now appears on my watchlist, showing me that I now being watched on this page. Then you do this edit 18 days later[203] followed by this edit 07 January 2018 [204], which I partial reverted on the same day here.[205].

Example 3: The same kind of thing on Supernova. It has happened on other pages too. e.g. Velocity article about a month ago with this edit here[206], which you reverted here just 1 hour 16 minutes here[207]. (VQuakr too was involved here[208] and here[209], and they also had not previously edited this page.) I first edited this Velocity page here[210] on 16th January 2016 and made 20 edits prior to either of them.)

First Edits Ion 04 December 2019[211] Velocity 02 June 2019[212] Supernova 17 June 2019[213]

Before this, Attic Salt had never edited these articles.

CONSEQUENCES I don't think Attic Salt has got the whole implications of what they have disclosed above and the kind of damage this tracking of my edits has done - both to me and to other editors - especially VQuakr who has defended them here. Those considering this IBAN need to balance the evidence of undermining where each instance of hounding gains further support against the target. If the hans are tied by some Combined with suspicion of sanction gaming, makes the target more vulnerable. If they react by speaking out of their frustration or lash out, it is the target's fault. If they make a little mistake they are cornered and blamed. If they challenge the attacker, the target is called out for harassment, while outside observers never see the origin of the angst (hidden behind the implementation of the tracking.) They longer the process goes on, the higher the stakes,

If we do read this ANI it seems to show multiple problems has caused the great support behind some IBAN on Arianewiki1. On the face of a sanction might be appropriate. However by Attic Salt's own statement confirms they are following them. It is clear from some responses reading past points are actually true. e.g. VQuakr's response here[214] and the response and plea "Go away. Leave me alone. You have been told before. Attic Salt has been targeting my edit and won't back off."
User ST47 said here[215] saying:"...suggests to me that nothing less than an IBAN will address this pattern of harassment." WP:Boomerang? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arianewiki1 (talkcontribs)
  • COMMENT For me, the level of distress and wasted time already placed on me cannot be understated, making the whole editing experience unpleasant and hindering my contributions. (My four responses below explain this.) Arianewiki1 (talk) 05:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to yourself in the third person and claiming to be the victim of attacks aren't the trump cards you seem to think they are, and your attempts at deflection are transparent. Viewing your editing history is not harassment, and real victims of harassment don't follow their harassers around. The interaction report posted in the OP of this section shows numerous examples of you editing an article for the first time (or returning to edit after a long absence) shortly after Attic Salt made an edit; one egregious example is [216]. Your claim that you are the victim here is trivially falsified by anyone reviewing the report. VQuakr (talk) 07:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Attic Salt has been shown to be wikihounding. Fact.
Yes. "Viewing your editing history is not harassment", but targeting or following another editor by repeatably reverting or disrupting their edits then start engaging in punitive arguments IS HARASSMENT.
Again harassment (or sanction gaming) is difficult to prove.
However, Attic Salt admits to doing wikihounding (harassment).
They were asked to stop doing this. They ignored it. Fact.
"...real victims of harassment don't follow their harassers around." Prove it. My edit summary (yes there is an ES) says "On watchlist. Actually relevant. Unconstructive "this takes us off track." rv " e.g. This article was on my watchlist not Attic Salt. (Writing this now, only three users appear on my watchlist. Arianewiki1 and Attic Salt (as explained since this ANI became active.) The third is User talk:71.212.15.213, to whom I post a welcome message on 22nd June 2019 here[217] (in case they replied) 'Electromagnetic radiation' appears is on my watchlist, as I added it when doing edits on various magnitude articles. I presently have 662 pages on my watchlist. No other User has appeared on my watchlist that I can recall for many years.
If I reverted an edit, THAT DOES NOT SAY I AM WIKIHOUNDING. Such harassment is can only be true if a User persists with the engagement with a second user and then undermines or inhibits the editing process. e.g, Sanction gaming. There is no further discussion on the talkpage, and no further interaction between Attic Salt and me. It was reverted by Chetvorno here[218], who says in the edit summary: "Reverted good faith edits by Arianewiki1: I agree with Attic Salt; I don't see that this unrelated comment is relevant. It is WP:OFFTOPIC and not WP:NOTABLE". Nothing else happened.
So according to you here: "Your claim that you are the victim here is trivially falsified by anyone reviewing the report." is also falsified.
Saying "...and claiming to be the victim of attacks aren't the trump cards you seem to think they are, and your attempts at deflection are transparent" is not only avoiding good faith it is perpetuating a falsehood without any real proof.
Deflection is too easy. I have responded in good faith to all the demands being made within this ANI, and defended myself without personal attacks. This is looking more and more like simple personal retribution; probably stemming because a personal obsession with me not writing edit summaries and the previous rejection in an earlier ANI enforcing policy for me to do so. The pretext (by your words) in seeing one missing edit summary, was enough to set you down track to the position as it is now. This is made worst because I did add many edit summaries in the same Supernova article - possibly even because of I might have reconsidered my position based on what you have said. (Of the 99 edits done in June a total of 44 had edit summaries (48.9%) But you are still point pushing. You apparently still think I deserve to be further sanctioned, or better still, permanently banned. The problem is not me or Attic Salt is it. It appears to be a continuing grudge and you want to see me punished for it. (I don't care why.)
You have said in the very first statement that: "I couldn't tell you why, but Arianewiki1 has had it in for this editor, from the get-go and for approaching two years now." You got your answer. Attic Salt has been proven to be wikihounding and tracking me for most of that time. My responses are caused by increasing frustration because they continue to do it even when asked to cease. It is no being done to improve the project notthere it is being done to inhibit the contributions of another editor. It is against policy. This situation was not manufactured up by me, but by Attic Salt's own words without an trickery or coercion. Worse. They don't see it is a problem. Fact. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:00, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RESPONSE This is near impossible to defend adequately in a short number of words, especially when exposed to what is presented is like a collected FBI dossier. It is likely an example of a very complicated series of gaming that is near impossible to prove or disprove. However, VQuakr saying: "I couldn't tell you why, but Arianewiki1 has had it in for this editor, from the get-go and for approaching two years now." is interesting, because it isn't (and can't be) just one way. Even a partial two-way IBAN (or even three-way including VQuakr, on the repeated excuse to revert edits just based on missing edit summaries) might help. (Both do this in edit summaries like here[219] or [220].) I'm acting within policy, and have now done so when it matters.

Most of this ongoing angst I think is because of a problem with Attic Salt's editing approach across many articles, especially when it comes to context. (See the many examples be me and others throughout their talkpage. Please read this discussion User talk:Attic Salt#Recent Provocations which shows the problem.) I do feel that they are specifically targeting my own edits and are sanction gaming. After experienced this many times, I've had to repeatably asking them to leave me alone and stop following my edits but they keep undermining the process by sticking to a POV until the evidence becomes overwhelming. I am not imposing OWN here.

I can't deny that most of the responses selected by VQuakr do show a real escalating level of frustration (as the recent edits on the Supernova article is yet another example, as explained below.) I also feel that on 1RR is likely being exploited by reverting my edits on some minor pretext (like edit summary, punctuation or elaboration), forcing me onto the talkpages to present and endless ignoring open advice or improvement. e.g. Spelling out in this recent edit[221] but having it reverted for the reason "No, it doesn’t say “all” white dwarfs, but rather “a” white dwarf." Even though this is being discussed on the article's talkpage, and leaves the opportunity for others to improve it.

I'm just a little confused as to what VQuakr's involvement actually is here, as far as I know I rarely interacted with them in the articles I've been editing. They once prosecuted a case about the lack of edit summaries in a previous ANI, which seems over-the-top considering in contentious edits. I've since been adding them.

I'm more disturbed by VQuakr claiming in this edit[222] is somehow badgering, when it only points out policy, especially when the 'ban' came out of the blue. I responded in case there was a misunderstanding, and then did as they wished.

Another is quoting this response[223] in a negative light, but failing to point out the had previously had accused me of "being a troll" and a "jerk." Reading the initial post hereUser talk:Attic Salt#Towards Happier Times..., and then saying: "Clearly, I was totally wrong in my initial assumptions. I sincerely extend my apologies regarding the comment on socking. I might be sometimes over zealous, but believe me, it was never personal." or saying: "I have looked at some of your edits, but the vast majority are positive and useful contributions. Keep it up!" Does that really look like someone acting improperly?

Though, much to my better judgement, an equal WP:IBAN of all Users here might be justified - just to stop the disruption. This might be difficult with some related astronomy articles, but it would stop the monitoring and executing of reverts.

Some may claim that I am notthere, but contributions like Photometry (astronomy) [224] (even with this sandbox), Photographic magnitude [225] or even Apparent magnitude[226] shows collaboration and improvements as it should be.

Extended content

Examination of the current editing issues with the content dispute on Supernova shows that Attic Salt has made 53 edits on this article page, the first being on 16 June 2019.[227] The next day they make this edit[228] and then add this query[229], where I'm accused of "Arianewiki1 inserted (without edit summary) the following sentence into the lede." and that "Anyway, I think Arianewiki1's sentence either needs to be fixed or removed." Yet when explained the original text was not mine[230], and asked to retract the accusations[231] - they instead ignore it.

It seems the only reason they went to this page was my edit made solely by this single revert edit made on 13th June[232] made by an IP, whose removal looked like vandalism or an incorrect reason. Rather than discuss this further, they keep pushing the POV on 16 June 2019 with these POV edits[233]. This is then followed by a series edits trying to justify the adding of the words "heavier than nitrogen" (This is further discussed in detail in the ANI here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1009#Harmful Disruptive Editing and Personal Attacks by User:Lithopsian) Yet instead of trying to get consensus, they ramp up the discussion even further Stellar nucleosynthesis vs supernova nucleosynthesis, and the problems are explained with their view was then give by me and Lithopsian. Yet even when this appears, they still believe they are right against reasonable and informed opinion/evidence.

This next edit by Lithopsian adds 'or white dwarf'[234], which I restored the version here[235]. Attic Salt then reverted this text here[236] because "Unexplained (no edit summary) removal of “white dwarf”, from lede but which is discussed in body of this article." I detailed why this was unnecessary here[237], then I next went to the talkpage with Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained explaining these original restorations here[238]

The reasoning for this appear from 12 April 2016 under Talk:Supernova#Introductory sentence and in 2017 Talk:Introduction Explanation (again), with this problem being explained. This latest issue with this seems to come from me restoring the text under Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph as it looked like missed vandalism made in September 2018. (Before Attic Salt's editing of this page as it was made 29 May 2019.)

Yet doing this now, as now claimed by VQuakr, launches into this response[239] claiming;

  • This is "a broken-ass edit"
  • Again whinging about edit summaries, saying " Of course it was reverted." to justify it.
  • Claiming "Cleaning up your messes is not harassment, and your repeated false accusations of such are grounds for a block or ban." ('messes' are irrelevant to any harassment, but repeatably pointing out some lack of edit summary is harassment under rehash and hounding them for it.)
  • Accused on own saying: "You don't own your own edits, much less this page, so you should have no reason to expect that anyone, ever, is going to give a second's thought to your requests for others to not modify your work." (Anyone surely would reading this section is not expressed as OWN e.g. Me saying "It is perhaps imperfect, but it has been stable for sometime and is a reasonable compromise." or "...IMO there needs to be a better or fuller explanation for any further modifications." and "Further changes should be again discussed on this talkpage if gaining a newer consensus is required."
  • Saying that: "It doesn't appear there is a stable version despite Arianewiki1's self-reference above."(most of this text existed since December 201
  • Saying that: "I am fine with removing "white dwarf" per this section", but then say "Rmv "white dwarf" per Arianewiki1's comment on talk"[240], but now say to Attic Salt comment "" that it "Works for me." So which is it?

As I point out, Attic Salt refuse to acknowledge basic mistakes. They continues to do this kind of behaviour and is unwilling to change even if the evidence is against their views. e.g. User Talk:Attic Salt#Recent Provocations Every time there is a dispute, you have to climb another mountain to fix the problem. e.g. [241],[242], [243], [244] or this.[245] In the end it just becomes tedious.

IMO, the picture that VQuakr is painting seems to be only in the worst light, especially with the apparent obsession with them trying to force me by a further sanction to use edit summaries. As far as I know I have rarely interacted with them in the articles I'm editing. They once prosecuted a case about the lack of edit summaries in a previous ANI. Also why they responded this way in Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained when this shows opening up a reasonable discussion to get some sort of consensus. It is unjustified based on the given content.

What I would like to suggest before any judgement, is that Attic Salt might also respond here to get the other side of the argument without an intermediator speaking for them. I don't think VQuakr has the full picture here. If I've made unintentional mistakes anywhere here, then I'm sorry, as this took me sometime to organise and be consistent with the complaint. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't much point in my responding to Arianewiki1's response, here, since they have so often responded with hostility and insults. Attic Salt (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RESPONSE 2 @Dlohcierekim: Good. So Attic Salt you are not denying anything stated by me above?
The question is have you been sanction gaming? (As evident because the discussion given the previous ANI Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1009#Harmful Disruptive Editing and Personal Attacks by User:Lithopsian), that do suggest you have, and in which you also didn't defend.)
Also in the recent Supernova article does look like you are following my edits. I think you saw my changing the first paragraph, was because I restored a possible vandalism that went unnoticed? Or was it because Lithopsian added 'white dwarf' to the statement and thought it a good idea to defend it? Is this true? Even after a reasonable explanation appears here[246] But you did this rv edit[247], where you justify it as "removal of “white dwarf”, from lede but which is discussed in body of this article." Another is the rv edit defense: "This really is ridiculous. The article discusses SN from both massive stars and white dwarfs. So, the defining first sentence can't mention one without mentioning the other."
Yes, "white dwarf" appears 34 times in the article, but the problem is that you still don't seem to understand is that very few white dwarfs will go supernova. The current editing improvement in Supernova (not made by me) says "...massive star or when a white dwarf is triggered into runaway nuclear fusion." Saying only certain kind of white dwarf can go supernova. Isn't adding "white dwarf" ignoring context?
This example (among many) is not the only issue with context or editing e.g.
  • Defending "about nitrogen." assumed by just by looking at some graph in a cite but not actually stated in the text. (Only later to find the source says "oxygen")
  • Another was "Western" versus "western" claiming this was usage was given in MOS (It turned out it wasn't.)
  • This edit[248] or this Deneb edit[249] (where you didn't realise 'dredging' was the correct astronomical term, but said in the edit summary that ""Dredge" for convection is a bit of an odd metaphor") or even this unnecessary rv edit[250].
I posted you on the talkpage about one several of these issues in detail here on 23rd September 2018 under User talk:Attic Salt#Request, but instead deflected it by saying the unrelated: "Readers might peruse the rest of my talk page (above) for several other contributions provided by Arianewiki1."
Proving sanction gaming is occurring
Whilst anyone looking at these issues might say that they look trivial, there seems a long cumulative history of this kind of editing style. Other editors do see this in isolation, and it looks as a whole like acting against policy, but from my perspective, this continuous little niggling becomes very frustrating. I cannot absolutely prove this is an imaginary or a deliberate provocation, because when it get to the brink of breaking editing policy, finds it just moves onto to somewhere else in the project, and start again.
Is following Arianewiki1's edits possibly true?
I often feel that someone like Attic Salt (or even VQuakr) is always looking over my shoulder with everything I contribute. (Sure there needs to be scrutiny by others, but if one or two editors keep reverting on some pretext, while most random editors are not doing this, it highlights there might be a problem.)
Some Examples
If I go to an unrelated page, I find you following it. e.g. In the article Ion on 4th December 2017 10:07, I did these edits[251], but the next day on 5th December 2015 11:01 later turn up on the page with this edit here[252]. Anyone else looking at this appears utterly trivial, but it now appears on my watchlist, showing me that I now being watched on this page. Then you do this edit 18 days later[253] followed by this edit 07 January 2018 [254], which I partial reverted on the same day here.[255].
Isn't this a problem? It might be just coincidence, sure.
But I have already shown above, this same kind of thing on Supernova. It has happened on other pages too. e.g. Velocity article about a month ago with this edit here[256], which you reverted here just 1 hour 16 minutes here[257]. (VQuakr too was involved here[258] and here[259], and they also had not previously edited this page.) I first edited this Velocity page here[260] on 16th January 2016 and made 20 edits prior to either of them.) All three were not edited by Attic Salt prior to this.
Summing Up
So how does this quasi-claim of tit-for-tat undermining be prevented and stop being disruptive?
Perhaps it might be better to post to MY talkpage that you see a problem with some edit I have made, pointing it out and let me attempt to fix it or even explain why. Not once have Attic Salt discussed any problems on my talkpage. Instead we just see repeated rv with my edits. Is this true?
In the end there are three possible options here. I get an IBAN (or banned all together), we both of us get an IBAN, or the problem between can disappear. Alternatively, we can just mutually agree just to stop interacting at all with each other's edits? I leave you alone, and you leave me alone (as I've already repeatably requested). Is this unfair? Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding your suggestion that I am "sanction gaming"" I know that you are under a 1RR restriction. I'm not under any such restriction. Am I supposed to change my behaviour because you are under sanctions?
Regarding your suggestion that I am following you: You might recall that you have accused me of following you to the article on Deneb, of "harrassing" you, of "hounding" you, and of being a "grammar nazi": [261]. But, as I noted [262], your first edit on Deneb came three days after my first edit on that article -- doesn't this mean that you followed me?. To top it off, as I also noted, 5 of the 6 edits you seemed to find so problematic on Deneb were made by you (not by me) [263] -- and yet, ironically, you also accused me of being incompetent.
Having said this, I have, yes, viewed your editing history and noted some of the articles you've edited. Honestly, I don't think this is unusual. In this way I found one of your edits at velocity to be problematic, [264]. I undid it [265], and then you undid that [266], You accused then me of vandalism and not understanding textbook material [267], though I think it comes down to you not writing clearly. The problematic edit was then undone by VQuaker [268].
I suppose I might respond (yet again) to your problems with the Supernova article. You seem to think it is acceptable, in the defining first sentence of the article, to mention that a supernova can result from a the explosion of massive star, but not to mention that a supernova can also result from the explosion of a white dwarf. The supernova article discusses both sources. So, to mention one source in the first sentence without mentioning the other is, to me, unacceptable (the reader would be confused). And, contrary to your confusion, to say that a supernova can result from an exploding white dwarf doesn't mean that all white dwarfs explode, just as saying that a supernova is a stellar explosion doesn't mean that all stars explode.
Still, you pour it on -- just look at your many derogatory responses on the supernova talk page: You accuse me of insulting you [269] because I refer to a sentence you restored as "Arianewiki1's sentence". I apologised [270], but this wasn't good enough for you [271]. I note that the supernova article appeared to be conflating stellar nucleosynthesis with supernova nucleosynthesis [272], and while Lithopsian responds in civil terms [273], you certainly didn't [274] --and, as far as I can tell, you don't seem to understand the point I was trying to make. Anyway, I could go on and on. Interested readers can just read through Talk:Supernova to see what is going on.
I hope this claifies things, Attic Salt (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE 3@Dlohcierekim:
I do appreciate your response above, and read it a couple of times to understand what you are saying before a reply. However, importantly I do disagree with several of your points, and will counter some of them.
  • I did not track you to the Deneb page. I did this because of the ongoing discussion with Rigel on the brightest ACYG variable, which Deneb is sometimes considered as the brightest. My first edit was this[275], which I did reading the article and never looked at the article's Watchlist. (My edit was unrelated to your previous edits, which were made later.) Further modifications in the article affected my own edits and some other pages that I also edited.
How do I know of your changes? Either through my Watchlist or through Contributions. If it is one my watchlist, the change is noted in the list. In contributions, it says "(current)" or is blank - indicating another. I don't have you on my watchist for sometime nor do I know exactly what you are editing. (I currently have you on my watchlist switched on for this ANI so I can be highlighted you may have placed a new submission. You could highlight the ANI page, but are swamped with too many edits.)
  • SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM You are openly admitting to: "Having said this, I have, yes, viewed your editing history and noted some of the articles you've edited. Honestly, I don't think this is unusual." OK, but didn't I ask you not to do this? When you placed your 'ban' from your talkpage, I requested this, but the article on Velocity was after this action. As Tigraan advised me not to have you on my watchlist, but now it is OK for you to do that? Can't you see that this is a big problem because it might be seen as targeting as I've stated. It is against policy. You are admitting you are following me. (So my previous ANI, in which you didn't respond BTW, my assertions were likely correct.)
  • You still don't see "white dwarf" might need some additional qualification. Massive stars make massive white dwarfs and normal stars make small white dwarfs. Nearly all Type I supernova are created by massive/ heaviest white dwarfs. Small white dwarfs cannot make supernova (except merging binary white dwarfs - and very rarely.) If you remove "white dwarf", it still logically means that all massive stars go supernova. I and Lithopsian already told you that on the article's talkpage. Context is everything, and even if your logic were true, you just reverted the text but never attempted consensus.
Now we are only left with issue stated in "Summing Up", which hasn't be addressed. Can we instead come to a mutual agreement between us here to solve this? Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree not to look at your edit summary and not follow your talk page. Attic Salt (talk) 08:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE 4 @Attic Salt: @VQuakr:: No, this isn't good enough.
I want the harassment and sanction gaming to finish.
The requested was that ...we can just mutually agree just to stop interacting at all with each other's edits.
I don't think you have got the whole implications of what you have disclosed above and the kind of damage your tracking of my edits has done - both to me and to other editors - especially VQuakr who has defended you here. (Did VQuakr even know you were hunting down my edits?)
The level of distress and time that your targeting edits has had on me personally cannot be understated.
You have now openly admitted to been doing wikihounding : THIS IS HARASSMENT
Wikihounding says: "Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia." Quoting directly from there:

The important component of hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or disruption to the project generally, for no constructive reason. Even if the individual edits themselves are not disruptive per se, following another user around, if done to cause distress, or if accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions.

Attic Salt, you have now done this multiple times (as shown above) in: Ion 04 December 2019[277], Velocity 02 June 2019[278] and Supernova 17 June 2019[279] (and many others, like Asterism, Constellation, etc.)
As for saying above. "I agree not to look at your edit summary and not follow your talk page."[280] shows a problem in understanding editing.
  • If I (or someone else) make an edit summary that you see, then READ IT.
  • If I (or someone else) don't leave an edit summary DON'T JUST REVERT IT (I've either made a mistake leaving it out means I probably consider the change as trivial.)
  • If you (or someone else) make an obvious mistake, like a word duplication e.g. "and and" or a missing bracket, then FIX IT. (I'll thank you for it.)
  • If in doubt, ask on some talkpage without inferring they are to blame or wrong. e.g. Pose a open question and/or an offer an alternative.
  • If nothing happens, or they disagree, then LEAVE THE EDIT ALONE, and let some other future editor decide. Else provide supporting evidence.
  • If you decide to REVERT, then be prepared to follow BRD, and get consensus.
THIS AGREEMENT
You are free to look at my or any other edit summaries, BUT YOU WILL NO LONGER REVERT IF THERE IS NO EDIT SUMMARY. (and not point that out. OK VQuakr?)
In your talkpage "ban" you were also asked this: "In return, I expect you to avoid all of my edits in the future, and remove me from your watchlist (if applicable), so I don't have to bother about responding here at all."
Attic Salt replied: "I do not agree to making a bargain just so that you will stop posting needlessly aggressive messages to my talk page."
We now know you have been targeting another editor which is Wikihounding. Now not some accusation or aspersion by me. It is now by your own words. So perhaps I may of had a good reason to be frustrated and aggressive?
All this needs to end here and now, else admins will step in. Without a mutual agreement, this or another new ANI will then conclude this situation by sanctions or a ban: me, you. or both.
You've already said in the same place: "I'm curious as to how deep the hole will be dug." Are we not still digging? Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Arianewiki1: I'm not sure why you pinged me. Not sure I'm needed here at all. And I must say, at a glance, you've handled all this quite well. Dlohcierekim (talk) 07:32, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dlohcierekim: hopefully you don't mind me pinging you again. With reference to your comment to Arianewiki1 above, if you feel that Arinewiki1 has convinced you via their replies that a ban is not justified or that someone else should also be sanctioned, it'll probably be helpful to comment above on this. To my involved eyes, while the discussion seems to have stalled the existing comments would suggest consensus for a ban of some sort. Nil Einne (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne: I could never mind (in this sense) anything you do. I meant above that he'd done a great job providing counter arguments. I don't see Arianewiki's comments as that incivil. I was also blind to Fram's-- look where that got us. Hopefully those calling for a BAN of some sort did not come with axes to grind. (I don't think people who are complainants should get to !vote on remedies. They are not impartial. But I guess that's not how ANI functions/malfunctions (take your pick)).^ If Ariannewiki's comments are truly offensive and toxic in the eyes of someone not involved in a dispute, then some remedy is in order. I would ask that it be short term and predicated on Ariannewiki addressing people in less toxic fashion. Perhaps offering examples of what they would do instead. VQuakr is not totally blameless in this. As no one is indispensable, I think short blocks for both and have these two very intelligent but pissy editors write short essays on how they will be more civil and collegeal and less sensitive. And they should bloody well learn to collaborate. I mean really, what goes on in their real world academic settings. (They both sound like academics). Perhaps they should both take a week off and get some couching (or coaching) on how to interact with others. (As an Aspie, I know this sometimes can be helpful.) Sorry y'all my dog is sighing at me and I promised today to her. Hope this helps. Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^What I see happening at ANI generally falls into 3 categories. 1) Impartial and unbiased regular gather information, present it, and an univolved admin takes action. 2) The report is ignored. No one looks at it. No function at all. 3) A lynch mob complete with burning torches and clubs runs someone out of town on a rail.   Dlohcierekim (talk) 11:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply] 
Dlohcierekim, I disagree with your assessment, here. Arianewiki1 is a bully. VQuakr does not deserve a block. Not at all. Attic Salt (talk) 12:51, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
'RESPONSE 6' : Nil Einne Dlohcierekim VQuakr @Attic Salt: Tigraan:
VQuakr is reacting for a different reason, and is only the catalyst. Their own predicament is that they didn't know you have been wikihounding, and others here have not known that. (Q. So have you been wikihounding?) Justification in this ANI is based on the contention that simply comes down to that I've been 'attacking' you. If you were blameless there would be no problem, but you were undermining the editing process. You are not blameless.
Point straight off says: "When one becomes frustrated with the way a policy or guideline is being applied, it may be tempting to try to discredit the rule or interpretation thereof by, in one's view, applying it consistently." Both VQuakr and you have been pushing justification to revert edits if there is no summary (repeating that within the edit summary.) Yet, even following H:ES where is says edit summaries are not mandatory, and you should not revert if their is no edit summary. Point says "Such behavior, wherever it occurs, is highly disruptive and can lead to a block or ban."
Yet even if this is dismissed, on top of it, they keep on following from topic to topic. e.g. Attic Salt went to the Velocity article, which Attic Salt or VQuakr had never edited before. I was almost certainly found by watch me, then Attic Salt immediately reverted my edit.[281]. Similarly, VQuakr, also having me on their watchlist, again reverted this here[282]. Looking at the history listing[283], I had only attempt to improve the article adding two words, and whatever I do, they revert it. Even when VQuakr reverts saying "rmv confusing phrasing. Yes, direction + magnitude = vector, but we can write in a way that is readable, no?" I do that, but the new version is yet again reverted[284]. I just gave up.
So here is direct evidence of wikihounding AND making subtle points about a missing edit summary.
Yes there is even more to this.
My very next edit I go to the Talk:Ptolemy questioning if he was Roman, and up pops Attic Salt with a reply.[285]
My next edits then go to Lithopsian to ask a simple question, but they move the discussion to the unrelate page Talk:Antares#Magnitudes (please look at the initial dismissive response), and again there is Attic Salt, then followed by VQuakr and Cas Liber (who supports the IBAN here.) weighing in. Cas Liber says: "Arianewiki you know this so this is you (again) trying to drum up arguments". I asked a question to one user, including a relevant cite. I wanted to know, because I was updating the articles on main stars in the constellation of Crux, and Lithopsian reverted the format for magnitudes on Crux here[286] claiming "correct usage of magnitude as a unit".[287]. I just wanted to know why. A reasonable question I'd think, or is it a distraction or drumming up drama? (Extraordinary too, here is where VQuakr chimes in wit the discrediting: "Don't expect others to follow your arbitrary evidentiary standards just because you say so." I just asked a question nicely with a relevant cite. That's 'arbitrary'?)
I'm clearly being hunted down page to page, but with ol' niggling Attic Salt still wikihounding. This is now on-going month after month, safer because they're ban another on their talkpage. (Yet according to dear Tigraan "Seriously. You tick all boxes of Paranoia#Paranoid social cognition. Do not think they will lock you in an asylum (they won't) and do not think only wusses seek help." According to Tarn N. "Which leads to the fundamental collaboration problem. When collaborating, you should be considering in every single edit you make "how can I make it easier for my peers to understand what I've done?" and "And we've seen them here at ANI repeatedly this year, drumming up drama which goes nowhere. Attic Salt has certainly received a lot of abuse, but that seems mostly an indication of survivability on Attic Salt's part.")
But Attic Salt now boldly says "VQuakr does not deserve a block. Not at all." and "Arianewiki1 is a bully." ! Does Attic Salt now deserve a sanction here?
Attic Salt continues to undermine another editor (taking no responsibility for their actions and now feels immune), VQuakr continues to be the catalyst of the angst, Arianewiki1 is painted into a corner and frustrated (ready to have to be given their hat and coat, and about to be shown the door), and the mob outside lusting for a lynching. Ironic. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've realised something even more ironic. I was put on a 1RR restriction after the lifting of an indefinite block because of BLP issues quoting unsuitable sources. VQuakr also chimed in there too. One new reliable source did turn up, and I posed a simple question under Talk:Clementine Ford (writer)#Controversies and criticism section, which VQuakr responded too in February 2019. How did they find this page?
Odd too, the new source finally validated the disputed text and the poorer sources, however, I'm still stuck with the restrictions.
As Richie333 said: "The 1RR is to prove to us that you have reformed and can be a productive editor without any disruption; if you can do that, and get the restriction appealed, then all will be well and we'll forget about it." I have not broken 1RR since. Continuous reverts by Attic Salt (or VQuakr) is especially egregious because they targeted in the hope finding a 1RR violation - meaning another indefinite restriction for me. It is reasonable to assume that watching a User is to await such a circumstance occurring as to enforce such restriction, thus it is a likely motive to follow edits via my talkpage. (The other Achille's heel is being "…and can be a productive editor without any disruption;" This is where this can be exploited.)
Maybe this is all imaginary, but it explains a lot, especially with Attic Salt following my talkpage and then making some revert every now an then on some little odd pretext. e.g. As by Velocity. Yet to them, this is not a big deal? This has to end. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:34, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

VQuakr's own Involvement here

@VQuakr: Could you please explain your own involvement here?

Exactly how does Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained initial statement deserve this response[288] followed by this ANI.

What is wrong is saying:

"Attic Salt is yet again reminded that edit summaries are not a requirement to edit, and using revert edits (rv) is no justification to revert. It is against policy. Repeatably doing this is now violating rehash and wikihounding, all seemingly done just to cause distress to another editor in the hope of 'nailing them' on some esoteric point. They are also openly reminded of the WP:BRD policy, especially if there is consensus in the community against some specific change you'd like to make. Please break away from this unpleasant repeated cycle of pointy (Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point) behaviour. "

It was in response to this edit[289], where Attic Salt used as a reason to rv contained "no edit summary".

The invective response by you was "Oh. Good. God. You are seriously defending this broken-ass edit…", referring to[290] when the reference to the quote above was this[291] It is then said: "….with its faulty capitalization and punctuation…" (neither any of these edits have capitalisation or serious punctuation problems)

Then we return back to the seeming obsession with my edit summaries, saying: "….and (due to the lack of an edit summary) complete lack of context that might have otherwise helped another editor figure out what the hell you were trying to do? " (Again, H:ES edit summaries are not mandatory.) The suggest that: "Of course it was reverted." is a justification. This followed by the off-tangent response here.[292] Either way, this is personal attack, isn't it??

Yet you come to my talkpage and say that I'm the one doing a personal attack[293] . It seems to indicate that you took exception to me saying you making "new false accusations" but it is OK for you to do them?

Yet incredibly, you now place this ANI proposing IBAN and about an interaction of another editor, but evade what caused your own issues.

My objection was that: "Attic Salt is yet again reminded that edit summaries are not a requirement to edit…" and by them keeping on and/or reverting edits for this reason is against policy. "Repeatably doing this is now violating rehash and wikihounding," because a previously made long debate. (Note: Rehash says "If your arguments are rejected, bring better arguments, don’t simply repeat the same ones. " and Wikihounding says: "Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.)

How is this exactly a personal attack if it is points out policy?

It is also interesting about these continuing edit warring issues above, especially after Proposed editing restriction: incident here and under this broader ANI here.

There are other wider questions here beyond this current ANI. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, your response to a discussion about how you habitually make frivolous claims of attacks as a proxy for discussion, is to make a frivolous claim of an attack. VQuakr (talk) 20:18, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Is it? You did this rv edit[294] and this edit[295]. (I gave a edit summary). This is 'frivolous'? You were involved.
Ultimately the question come down to the response [296] and this edit[297]. (and those on my talkpage) What PA is here for you to respond as you did? Reading Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained please show where there is any PA in this section.
Saying "Oh. Good. God. You are seriously defending this broken-ass edit…"[298], Your's isn't PA?
Your own edit summary on my talk page says "Only warning: Personal attack directed at a specific editor on Talk:Supernova."[299]. Reading my response has no PA of any consequence, considering you own accusations.[300].
I think there is a misunderstanding or overreaction here. Who is the "specific editor" here? Reading this has a whole heap of accusations that has little to do with Attic Salt but your own issues with me - especially edit summaries. Yet the initial edit in this ANI above is all focussed on Attic Salt. Your own issue was an interaction with you not Attic Salt, but it have been used as springboard in defending Attic Salt. (It possibly looks like a tactical move making one problem unrelated to another issue,)
Simply how do we go from what is in my first two responses in Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained to this:

Oh. Good. God. You are seriously defending this broken-ass edit to the lede of a FA, with its faulty capitalization and punctuation and (due to the lack of an edit summary) complete lack of context that might have otherwise helped another editor figure out what the hell you were trying to do? Of course it was reverted. Cleaning up your messes is not harassment, and your repeated false accusations of such are grounds for a block or ban. You don't own your own edits, much less this page, so you should have no reason to expect that anyone, ever, is going to give a second's thought to your requests for others to not modify your work.

Yet you have accused me of "faulty capatalization", but the edit you point out has no changes in that at all.[301]. You complain about a "lack of context", but even though this is discussed in the article's takepage already. I changed back an edit, sure, but I followed BRD, and introduced this Section. The rest of these accusations cannot be related to this Section nor the edit. You say "your requests for others to not modify your work. I didn't. I invited further discussions, and pointed out previous discussions. (I think you might have misread this.
As for the lack of edit summaries, well let's look at the Supernova edits of mine. e.g.[302]. Feel free to read my contribution page here.[303] if you think no edit summary appears in this article, I have now been adding Sections to the article's talkpage. e.g. here[304] Yes, I did leave off one edit summary. A mistake. Yet you pounced on that as seen within the blockquote above. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Arianewiki1's summary of the revert [305] and justification for his paragraph (quoted above) is incomplete. My edit that seems to have prompted this is summarised and makes it clear that he both 1. didn't provide an edit summary, so the rest of us are left with no understanding of why the edit was made, and 2. the content that he removed, "white dwarf", needed to be in the defining first sentence so long as "massive star" was also was also in that sentence. This has been explained several times, such as here: [306], and is the subject of an RFC that Arianwiki1 has called: [307]. Why we are going around in circles on this is unclear to me. Attic Salt (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a diversion. When called upon about their actions, this editor flails around trying to splatter blame, any blame, elsewhere to avoid scrutiny. Witness above dramatic There are other wider questions here beyond this current ANI. Anything to avoid dealing with their own conduct, which initiated this current round of drama on ANI (as I recall, this is the 5th round triggered by this editor this year). We should avoid being diverted - the issue before us is Arianewiki1's behaviour. Is it sufficient to require action? If so, should we try to layer on yet another round of restrictions, or just decide they are a net negative to the project? Tarl N. (discuss) 20:39, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Is it? VQuakr is involved here. True or false? Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:36, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Arianewiki1: Can you provide the list of people you have banned from your talk page, and the list of people who have banned you from their talk pages? I believe such lists are significant. Tarl N. (discuss) 20:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have "banned" no one from my talkpage (that I can recall). I see no reason to do so, because I can read and delete anything thing posted there as per policy. I rarely do deletions unless there PA. I have one person who has 'banned' me from their talkpage. None of them appear related to VQuakr issue here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This case is not about VQuakr, it's about you. I notice you still haven't provided the list, which you say is a single individual (I'll go back and check, because I was under the impression I knew at least three). The reason I ask for the information about people who don't want you on their talk pages is because we are considering an IBAN - it at a minimum should include people who have already told you to go away (and any you told to go away, although you say you've never done that). Tarl N. (discuss) 05:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Umm… I answered your previous question. This is not a court. The "case" is also about VQuakr because they are involved and not just an uninvolved observer. Also you've asked about "banned" or "banned you" from talkpages, but now you ask for wider "go away"? Isn't this fishing? By saying "I'll go back and check" looks problematic and might be likely against policy. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:10, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tarl_N. VQuakr. I 've not interacted with either of you for sometimes now (except Quakr on Supernova, that now looks like ). While I understand there might be some slights that may have occurred with either of you in the past, a simple behaviour analysis now looks like you also have been on your watchlist, and are also likely wikihounding, especially because pertinent as Tarn N. and Quakr is repeatably chipping in on my previous ANI each time. Tarn N says "This case is not about VQuakr, it's about you." No. Like Attic Salt, you almost certainly have me on your watchlist. This on-ging gaming needs to end and end now. Admins now have a global picture of what is going in the background here, and frankly, all participants display foibles. They are in their rights to come down hard on future breaking of policy. Rethink what you do in the future - that equally applies to me. OK. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:58, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Arianewiki1: - regarding your time at Wikipedia, the die is probably cast at that point, but I will still give you again the advice I gave during last year's block, which might be of use off-wiki. Try to contemplate the possibility, no matter how remote it seems, that your view is incorrect.
There is no editor on Wikipedia that you got along with. Not a single one. In the "best" case people gave up dealing with you, in the worst case they contested your edits and gave you trouble at ANI (often after you initiated such threads, BTW). I do not think you contest that. The interpretation you make of it is that every single person whose path you crossed is malevolent towards your person: see your reply above directed against Tarl_N., VQuakr and Attic Salt, see your comments about Nick-D in last year's unblock request, and a thousand other instances.
If you truly believe that a dozen strangers on the internet all hate you for no objective reason, I would advise getting medical help. Seriously. You tick all boxes of Paranoia#Paranoid_social_cognition. Do not think they will lock you in an asylum (they won't) and do not think only wusses seek help (if you start coughing blood, you don't wait it out, you go see a doctor - at least I hope).
On the other hand, you might see the wrong in your actions. Not in a "I kinda remember I might have been wrong at times but it was mostly others' fault" way as you said above (and in your unblock, and...), mind you, but with knowledge of clearly-identified errors ("I did X, it was wrong because of Y; I did Z, it was wrong because of W; etc.). In that case, I suggest to work on a concrete plan to avoid making the same errors in the future. At this point, I highly doubt you can convince any of us that you saw the light, but there is a life off-wiki where you should not reproduce the behavior you displayed on-wiki. TigraanClick here to contact me 10:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Tigraan: Thank you for your comments. I disagree. The portrayal here has little to do with understanding VQuakr involvement here. This ANI is about VQuakr interceding on behalf of Attic Salt, based on some VQuakr own perceived problem within Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained, then using it as pretext for a springboard for some IBAN based on a broader history. I have defend my position and addressed the accusations, where Attic Salt admits to have been following and targeting my edits on their watchlist and then surgically reverting edits they disagree with. This is against the policy because it is wikihounding and they have been likely using sanction gaming to obstruct the editing process. It is also likely both VQuakr and Tarn N. have me on their watchlists too, and are using some mistake or complaint to attack me or defend another user. Either way it is harassment. Fact.
VQuakr first paragraph in Talk:Supernova#Initial Paragraph Issues Further Explained several assertions towards me are untrue, and when basically asking them to refute them, don't do so. Instead. VQuakr thinks: "So, your response to a discussion about how you habitually make frivolous claims of attacks as a proxy for discussion, is to make a frivolous claim of an attack." The whole pretext of the launching of this ANI, is based on something within this[308] or this[309]. They still have not adequately explained this. What this has to do with Attic Salt? Do you see a problem in this Section to deserve an IBAN?
Finally, I'm very disappointed that you 'hate' me or that you think I also 'hate' you. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break in Arianewiki1 case

@Arianewiki1: We are in the 5th round of ANI drama for you this year. The proposal was for a one-way IBAN from you towards @Attic Salt:. Above, I inquired to find out who had banned you from their talk pages. I was under the impression that three separate editors had, but you claim only one - and refuse to provide their name, which makes it more painful to check your assertion (and frankly, not worth my time any more). Which leads to the fundamental collaboration problem. When collaborating, you should be considering in every single edit you make "how can I make it easier for my peers to understand what I've done?" Instead, your approach (including your refusal to use edit summaries, writing walls of text, and repeated ANI drama) seems to be orient around "How can I make it as miserably difficult for any other editor to interfere with what I want done?" That's not collaboration, that's WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.

My suggestion was that if ANI extends an IBAN, it should include anyone who has a problem with you, most particularly anyone who has banned you from their talk pages or told you to stop pinging them. On the other hand, this is laying Scylla upon Charybdis, given you are on probation with other restrictions already present. Rather than having you try to thread that needle, ANI should consider whether you are simply more of a detriment than a positive to the project. I suspect we could go at least several more rounds of laying further and further restrictions before you finally stumble and fail to thread one of the restrictions. That's frankly the wrong approach - an editor with one restriction is an anomaly, and should be viewed with a jaundiced eye. You already have two, ANI is contemplating at least one more, possibly two more (if we go back to your last drama, where requiring meaningful edit comments was bandied about as WP:ROPE).

One last comment about problems interacting with people on Wikipedia. When you were indef'ed for socking, you claimed it wasn't you, because the sock was in Victoria while you are in New South Wales. From 16,000 km away, they look next door, but it's probably more than an afternoon's drive. If it was indeed someone gaslighting you, then consider that it isn't just people on Wikipedia who have a problem with you. In that case, someone you know in person dislikes you enough to track down what you do for fun and deliberately set you up for a fall. I don't know whether that's accurate, but the fact that I consider it a plausible explanation says a lot about how you've interacted here.

Oh, and don't bother including me on the IBAN, I've decided to retire from Wiki. Tarl N. (discuss) 18:39, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Above, I inquired to find out who had banned you from their talk pages. I was under the impression that three separate editors had, but you claim only one - and refuse to provide their name," Attic Salt has, the only one I know. I don't think anyone else has done that. If they did, how do I prove of disprove that or satisfy your request? I've told you honestly, I don't think anyone else but Attic Salt has "banned you from their talk pages". If you know better, evidence please.
The rest I see as mostly fiction. I don't know why I think you would include you in IBAN. I have no idea what you've been editing, and I can't think of any in recent times I have come across your edits. I am only disturbed by why you keep popping up every time there is an ANI, and all you seemingly write is negative. Unless you regularly track through ANI's, it can only be assumed it is from a watchlist. It is implausible to have some excuse, because I might consider a futher IBAN, that "I've decided to retire from Wiki." That is your decision and has nothing to do with me.
Objectivity is a problem here. I have been accused in an ANI of some wrong doing, and have adequately explained and defended my position. In the end, Attic Salt turned out to be following me and frustrating the editing process, they have admitted it (fact), and they don't see it as a problem (fact). This opens up the real possibility some of my other claims are also true. I.e. The 'ban' was a tactical move, sanction gaming, etc. Had they not done so, perhaps the impression that others may have of me might have been different. Wish you well. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:28, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting closure

It does not look to me like any new editors are going to join this discussion. The discussion between existing editors doesn't seem to be achieving anything productive. Can someone assess whether there is consensus for any sort of ban for any editor involved, and close this? I've also listed it at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure so it might be good if anyone closing it follows the procedures there to avoid duplication of efforts. Nil Einne (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editing against consensus after RfC

Gwillhickers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Editor is refusing to accept consensus as determined by Talk:George_Washington#RfC:_Cooper's_abolitionist_tract and edit-warring (though not breaching 3RR) to insert the statement that was challenged by that RfC. The rationale given for doing so is argumentative, with claims that the "so called" RfC lasted only a week when it actually ran for a month, and, apparently, that it is invalid because it garnered "only" three !votes and two of the them were by "involved editors". Factotem (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The activity in the RFC in question lasted only a week; It was initiated on May 31st, while the last edit was made on June 7th. Yes, it was finally closed on July 4th, as no one else was interested in such an opinionated issue apparently. During all this time this RfC only garnered three votes, two of which did not involve outside editor's opinions, including a vote by the editor who initiated it. The RfC claim of "unanimous consensus" is wrong, as I clearly did not submit my vote, as Factotem has, as I thought it was only for outside opinion. WP:RFC : "Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes..." Two of the votes were submitted by involved editors. Only one vote was made by an outside editor. As such, this RfC should be dismissed. As for edit warring, as Factotem mentions, no breach of 3RR occurred. In my 12+ years of editing here at Wikipedia I've never violated 3RR. I've been working on the George Washington article for more than a year, trying to get it to FA, and have been trying to include important context, per FA criteria, covered by a number of sources. As an act of good faith, I will delete my own edit and try to achieve a better consensus. Please accept my apologies for any issues I may have caused. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The response above and the activity on the article TP seem to indicate the editor is heading down the path of WP:LAWYERING and WP:IDHT. Please, could an admin look into this and, if that is indeed the case, nip it in the bud with an appropriate warning? Factotem (talk) 14:43, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The 'response' above contains a legitimate complaint about Factotem voting in his own RfC, that, after well over a month, it contained only one outside vote. As can be seen, my response also includes a second reminder, with a link, about the primary rule concerning RfC's, with my statement indicating that the edit in question would be (and has been) deleted by my own initiative, along with an apology. Yet he's still at it. The same could be asked that he be given a warning on the same basis, given his rather incessant activity, as he has initiated, contested and dragged out the debate surrounding the one, factual, well sourced, statement in question on the Talk page, and now here, for well over a month. The second sentence in the edit in question was originally written by and added to the article by Factotem, btw. All things considered, it seems he is now pursuing this affair and hounding me for personal reasons. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All editors (including IP users) are welcome to respond to any RfC.
Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Suggestions for responding
Not sure where you got the idea that involved editors cannot respond to an RfC. Its primary purpose is to bring in outside comment, but there is nothing against involved editors commenting. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 21:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I never said involved editors can not respond. It was the voting that I had issue with. The voting was considered as a "unanimous consensus", when in fact two editors who did not vote said the statement in question could be covered keeping due weight in mind, as was outlined above. The first sentence on the RfC page says WP:RFC : "Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes..." Perhaps I've interpreted this wrong, but there was not a "unanimous consensus". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:42, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like the root of the problem here is that Gwillhickers objects to the closure. Without having read through the RfC in detail I can't say whether or not the objection has merit, but at a glance it seems plausible that Gwillhickers' (and another editor?) declining to formally vote may have given the closer a false impression of consensus. At any rate, I'd suggest that instead of editing in opposition to the closure, Gwillhickers should follow the process described at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE (i.e. take it up with the closer first, and if that doesn't resolve satisfactorily escalate to a formal review). signed, Rosguill talk 07:01, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I asked the closer to strikethrough(remove) the word unanimous from closing statement and he has agreed to do so. CBS527Talk 12:34, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Cbs527 and Rosguill: - Thanks, as I said above, to show compliance and good faith, I reverted my own edit a couple of days ago and will wait for any further developments. In the first sentence on the RfC page it says WP:RFC : "Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes..." This lead me to think that only uninvolved and impartial editors were allowed to vote. It seems the RfC page needs to be more clear on that. Anyway, I've gone along with the RfC, such that it is. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Charles01 behaviour

Extended content

I'm at a breaking point with Charles01. Since January he has been formally bashing about me for the past few months. He constantly making callous remarks of my editing even though I kept asking him to help me of how to edit collaboratively on around 2-3 occasions which are included in the diffs but comes out nothing but more condescending comments and antagonising. He tend to call my editing "Vauxford Vanity Project" and create made up phrases such as "Vauxfordy". Almost every edit he does he would at least include something personal about me.

Diffs of cases where he has taken his edits personally over a user rather then on the content:

Slipping in personal comments of me e.g "Then again, where a picture taken and uploaded and linked by the one and only Vauxford is involved" [310]

Another revert which mostly include grievance towards me rather the a practical reason why he reverted my edit [311]

More personal comments and remarks within his comments about me, including accusation that I god rid of a editor from the project even though that was never my intention. Described my personality as "narcissistic and arrogant" [312]

Respond after I told him that it isn't a "personal vanity project" [313]

The personal revert and warning template I put in his talkpage [314] [315] His reply to the template message [316]

Reply after I told him again that it isn't a personal vanity project [317]

Audi A2 reverts including more conscending mention about my "vanity project" and using the word "Vauxfordy" as something negative [318] [319]

Another RfC he created which include a number of personal remarks in his sentence about me [320]

One of his RfC edit that include many of his personal grief against me [321] [322]

I do want to come forward that I did called Charles01 "a bully", at the time, I was simply fed up and upset with the brash and condescending commentary he leaves when something to do with me but at the same time I ask and plead many times for him to tell me how to be collaborative which he doesn't, most of the time when I do leave a message on his talkpage asking this, he just dumps everything (including the warning template that I left because I found his revert summary about the Audi Q3 unacceptable) I said onto my talkpage even though it was all addressed to him. [323] [324] [325]

The Audi Q3 discussion I find unfair and Charles01 wanted my picture gone because it was taken by me. Despite the fact Alexander-93 who made the talk page discussion does the EXACT same type of editing as I do, yet he does get scruntised and made to feel degraded about themselves as Charles01 and other people does to me. Hence why I reverted the edit even after a "consensus" was reached Just to clarify, this wasn't me edit warring or even slow edit warring, at the time I thought the action was justified but after thinking over it a bit more, I felt the purpose was more then a disagreement over a photo replacement. I even added a alterntive photo to try and see if they agree on that because I really disagreed with the picture was being used for that article, but was simply ignored, shortly followed Charles01 added his unheartfelt message which consisted 20% of why the other photo should be used and 80% saying how How I "constantly create edit wars", how my photos are "mediocre", what I'm doing is just a "personal vanity project", saying I am "damaging Wikipedia" and simply saying how much a disruptive person I am and any photo I proposed on these articles should get voided, simply because they were by me.

I'm not innocent myself and I did messed up a few times but even after trying to improve my way of editing and seeking consensus with people rather then straight out reverting if someone disagree with my edit. It almost feels like Charles01 is simply talking me down with a chance that I would break down and possibly quit Wikipedia or something even though what I'm doing isn't disruptive and even if it was disruptive I had no awareness it is and formally apologise for it. I'm also not doing this to oust Charles01 in any way, I just believe the way he has been treating and approaching me like this is wrong and no editor whatever position they have on Wikipedia should go through that. --Vauxford (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I looked through all of the diffs and I see your frustration with the removal of photos etc. I agree that the editor was terse, however probably annoyed by your failure to get consensus first. My best advice is to get consensus on the talk page. The editor was blunt, but probably not a bully and probably not wrong on the edits. Often editors here (especially on automobile articles) feel like they have to protect every edit and photo on the article. Simply placing a photo without consensus on an auto article will likely always be met with a speedy deletion and a terse remark. I myself have added photos to BMW and to 5 series. The one on BMW was kept the one on 5 series was deleted. I thanked the editor and moved on. So short of it is: get consensus on the talk page before adding anything. I hope that helps. Lubbad85 () 21:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So removing ones photos because they are "Vauxfordy" and calling it a "personal vanity project" and bringing up a person I used to interact in the past almost in every respond isn't condescending? Half the things he ever said when it comes to me (Spanning from about January 2019) is more of how much a burden I am to everyone rather then the images themselves, and when it is the image, he simply call them my "blind spots" or medicare" it getting to the point that I'm the one to blame simply because I did it, if it any one else such as the user who created the Audi Q3 discussion, they wouldn't get this ridicule at all. As I provided on the diffs I did ask at times to cooperate with me so we don't get in to a mess, despite being long paragraphs they get lead to nowhere or he just simply paste the whole lot back onto my talkpage. --Vauxford (talk) 22:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was archived as udea, and I am not sure that you deciding it should not be archived is a good idea.Slatersteven (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The archive was done by a bot. I provided diffs, evidences and everything, how can they not try and evaluate this? They can't just discarded this because it was created by me. This been going on way before anything else prior to that. I don't want to let this get sweep under the rug and forgotten. --Vauxford (talk) 18:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
u Oshwah I know I shouldn't really ping admins but I talked to you about this before. Please at least look at this, this is nowhere near worst then what I got myself into with the previous discussion. --Vauxford (talk) 18:37, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re-opening this because he has been archived the 2nd time now since nothing has been done about this. Charles01 has reverted my edit after I replaced a picture that wasn't even discussed, it might of been in the talkpage discussion but it was simply ignored, YET again calling it my "personal vanity project". I'm going to blow a fuse if he going to accuse me of that one more time. Please something be done about this, I really think the talkpage discussion on the Audi Q3 wasn't justified (see Extended content for the original post I did). I tried talking to him, solving it on the talkpage discussion, but now he simply reverting anything I do because he calls it a "personal vanity project". I'm at a dead end here and doing anything else would just become disruptive. Please can this be look at that, I know I can a handful but still this has been going on for half a year now and I don't know what else to do. --Vauxford (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's a bit much; but you do also suffer from a conflict of interest when it comes to adding your own work. Best to try to argue for its inclusion on the article talk page rather than inserting it yourself. El_C 21:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did discuss this on the article talk page, I added a alternative image but it was never discussed except for some opinion about the wing mirrors. I thought because it hasn't been discussed I could use that instead of the one which a consensus have been reached, but even the consensus I find unfair because 80% of the reason for why they choose the grey one over the blue was mostly personal rather then actually talking about the picture. --Vauxford (talk) 21:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Try to change the consensus by getting wider input, taking advantage of your dispute resolution resources. El_C 21:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which one should I pick for this sorta thing though? Also this incident isn't just about the Audi Q3 dispute it the overall misconduct Charles01 has been giving me all this time. --Vauxford (talk) 21:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. That, indeed, depends on the depth and breadth of your dispute. El_C 00:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
[326] Charles01 made another lengthy comment making personal remarks of me rather then the picture itself in another talkpage, this often happens when I start discussion on the talkpage or anything with my name on it and when he gets involved it the comments become personal very quickly. --Vauxford (talk) 00:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
El_C I made a request for comment on the talkpage discussion and I reverted a comment by a user who has already had their said about the photo in the previous discussion. Charles01 reverted that with yet another lengthy comment which mention I have "destructive arrogance", "toxicity" and implying that I edit warring all the time which I don't. I thought RfC was made so users who aren't involved in the previous discussion can have their say? --Vauxford (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Anybody is free to express their viewpoint on a request for comment. You removing that comment was totally inappropriate. Please don't do that again. El_C 14:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake then, sorry. --Vauxford (talk) 16:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[327] Now it seem one of the users (who is more active on the German Wikipedia) is favouring Charles01 photos over ones that were done by me, the fact isn't whether which one is better, the fact is this user is acting biased by siding with Charles01 on anything now. Alexander-93 was the one who created the Audi Q3 talkpage because he wanted the grey car (which he took himself) to be used. The thing that bothers me the most is he insert his OWN photos into articles both on English and on the many Wikipedia I personally thing their nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't disruptive but I'm the one who been getting all the hassle saying I'm a "destructive user" and is "degrading Wikipedia" by Charles01 and he doesn't. Now I'm predicting that Charles01 gonna revert the recent edits Alexander-93 done with another lengthy scolding about how much a problematic user I am. What I find unfair is the sheer hypocrisy this is becoming and all I am is a scapegoat simply because the photo or edit was done by me. --Vauxford (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of edits Alexander does on many Wikipedias: [328] [329] [330] [331] [332] [333] [334] [335] [336] [337] [338] [339] [340] [341] [342] [343] [344] [345]

[346] Alexander just made another talkpage discussion which is just gonna be the same bias outcome from Charles01 and I'm fearing he just going to continue doing this on any photos taken by me (whether I put them there myself or not) --Vauxford (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not prioritise anybody's photos. I changed the image in the Fiat Panda article since I think it is better! After you reverted my edit I started a new discussion on the talk page. It is the same procedure as I already did for the Tesla Model S and the Audi Q3. It is getting stupid since every edit, in which a picture of you is replaced is endling like this. It seems like not even I have a problem with this behaviour.--Alexander-93 (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Alexander-93 The photo was taken by Charles01, and recently you have been siding with him for any comment he post about me. I'm going to be honest, I know this may seem rude and unethical because you have every right to edit on here, same with me on the German Wikipedia, but you are mostly active on the German Wikipedia because that your native language, I haven't been making edits/replacement on your Wikipedia because people on there got upset with me because their manual of style for automobiles is different to here which I respect that so I leave them be, same thing happened with me and the Italian Wikipedia so I also leave them alone, As far as I'm aware, it not against any polices to do edits on other Wikipedias unless it disruptive but if people on their really oppose my edits I would leave them alone. Why do you insist of trying to get your own way on here when it not even your main Wikipedia? --Vauxford (talk) 21:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When I first read the words 'vanity project', 'Vauxfordy' etc. I did not know, what the others meant. I'm not someone who bullies someone and I will never use such words. But after a while working side by side with Vauxford, I can understand the others. And to be true: Since a few days, I'm looking at your and Charles01 edits. But I do not side with anybody! I'm following different users on Wikicommons, who upload (car-)images regularly. And if I'm convinced by an image (as I was for the new Fiat Panda image), I share it on Wikipedia. And it doesn't matter if it's from me or another user. I think this isn't a problem. It seems to me like Vauxford is creating his own rules and if someone says something against him or his edits, it's ending like this. As I mentioned above, I do not prioritise anybody here. I also vote for his images ([347]) or implement them in some articles ([348]), but if I find a better than the existing one, I replace it ([349]). And if someone isn't convinced by my edit, we can discuss. For sure I'm not doing the replacing only with your edits ([350], [351], [352]), but your behaviour is different to others. You do not assume good faith and do not respect the work of other users!
As El_C mentioned before: Anybody is free to express their viewpoint on a request for comment. And just because English is not my native language and I'm also active in the German Wikipedia, I shouldn't do that in your point of view? I think you have to be careful with statements like this! Your problems in other Wikipedias are not my fault! In the German one there is the guideline to use mainly LHD-vehicles, since 99% of the vehicles in the DACH-countries are delivered with the steering wheel on the left side. And since you didn't stick to that rule, the German users had a problem with your edits. If I see it right, nobody here without you has a problem with some of my edits. But you have a problem with many edits, since I think you are making your own rules - and if I see it right, I'm not the only one thinking about you in this kind of way. So I do not care about your statement, that I should not use the English Wikipedia!--Alexander-93 (talk) 14:27, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vauxford, while I don't know the full depths of this dispute as it's been mostly outside of my sub-topic area, I've noticed a few things. Your photographs generally range from decent to less-than-passable, but you don't seem to understand that. You also don't seem to understand that replacing one adequate image with another adequate image isn't particularly productive. Whether your intention is to fill Wikipedia with your own pictures or not, your editing pattern gives other editors the impression that you are. I suspect these issues are where Charles01's frustration comes from, and that repeated attempts to get you to see that have left him believing he has no alternative but the unpleasantries you mention above.

If someone wanted to make a measurable improvement in terms of illustrating automotive articles, one would identify articles where an existing image is lacking and seek out opportunities to replace it, rather than taking photos in mass quantities whether they will be helpful or not. The goal should be to replace poor images with adequate ones; replacing adequate ones with excellent ones is icing on the cake (but in the vast majority of cases, a curbside shot like those you have access to is never going to be at that level). The point of having images in the articles is to provide the reader with a reasonable idea of what the vehicle looks like. As long as an existing image does that, ad nauseum discussions of whether a new image is a 1% improvement or a 1% detriment are wholly unproductive. --Sable232 (talk) 20:21, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sable232 Knowing a picture that need replacing is completely subjective towards the viewer. I have every right to do make these bold edits and I clearly understand why I do them and the repercussion I could get because of it. How the heck could I tell if a image could truly be replaced with something else or vice versa and thinking like that is just mind numbing. A person could replace a picture something they consider the absolute best but there always going to be someone who said otherwise. It doesn't matter if Charles01 is expressing frustration over me, it beyond unacceptable accusing others for "edit warring" when they have done whatsoever! It just harassment in general, it really patronising to be labelled as the "Vauxford Problem".. --Vauxford (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you have a conflict of interests when it comes to adding your own images. You should really be suggesting that on talk pages, instead. El_C 16:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But I'm not getting paid to do these edits or doing it out of my interest. I know that hard to believe but that's the truth and I understand why people mistake that. --Vauxford (talk) 16:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter that you're not getting paid, you cannot be presumed to be neutral regarding your own images in the event these are objected to, so you should let others add them instead and limit yourself to proposals on the talk page. That sounds like a sensible solution to me. El_C 20:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The pictures-of-cars topic area is rapidly supplanting pro wrestling as the universe's #1 source of lame controversy. EEng 01:25, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Think of it as the flavour of the quarter. Blackmane (talk) 04:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully it's only for the quarter and no longer. --Sable232 (talk) 20:21, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I eagerly await a page entitled 'RuPaul Riding In Cars With Wrestlers.' JoJo Anthrax (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the reason why this was ignored twice is a lot of people looking at maybe thinking, Mmmmm, not sure this is all that one way. At this time I am going to suggest that this is dropped before a boomerang ensues.Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is one way because I did nothing to make Charles01 like this. This was all his choice, if was actually giving me advice of how to edit productively none of this would happen. --Vauxford (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One thing to edit more constructively would be to stop going to ANI about everything. No, not everyone is a puppy, unicorn, or eternally happy, and some of these people will make you upset. But if that happens, back away for a bit, maybe delete the message they sent to you if it's not applicable, stop reverting them. If they continue, for a long time, then maybe you can report them. MAYBE. You probably shouldn't. Unless they are making definitively uncivil statements or reverting several people, you probably shouldn't. The reasons people are against you right now are that for one, you opened this less than a month after that YBSOne mess, and two, you are reverting far too aggressively. Stop reverting people for a while and people should feel less animosity. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 17:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A lad insane That YBSOne wasn't started by me, it was started by U1Quattro which got myself involved in when I shouldn't have. --Vauxford (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aight, great. Now don't get involved in any more, and no reverts, and everything will be peachy. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 21:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per wp:brd once you are reverted it is down to you to make the case, not down to the other user to give you advice. You are being told here what you did wrong, and your response is "I disagree".Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I been doing that this whole time though. I been discussing my edit on the talkpage instead of reverting all the time. Charles01 recently told me the type of frustration I been expressing on their should go to the ANI, so I went to the ANI and then E1_C told that this sorta stuff should be discussed in the talkpage section. It just seem like no matter what I do I get shouted and scolded for it. I'm at the brink of just giving up because at this rate I feel like every thing is all falling down on me. --Vauxford (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you had been doing it the whole time you would not have reverted even twice. It does not matte if you sometimes do it (and to be honest we all forget sometimes). What matters is you are here over this mater (it does not matter who started it, or who was reported) and have now re-started this twice, when you did not get your way (when I saw you first re-post I was going to say "maybe they have not commented because they see nothing to comment on"). Please note that sanctions are not punitive, they are preventive. At this time you are the disruption.Slatersteven (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't re opened this because it wasn't going my way I re opened it because nobody said anything and the bot automatically archived it before anyone could, all I'm doing is addressing the issue, I haven't reverted more then twice recently and I have been taking to talkpage discussion instead of that. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong here. --Vauxford (talk) 20:24, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am troubled by a lot of the stuff here on a number of different levels, but I was repeatedly dissuaded from intervening (1) because initially I couldn't think of anything I could add that would be helpful and (2) as the thing has dragged on and the temptation to jump in has periodically returned, I have been dissuaded from commenting by the belief that anything I wrote/write was/is likely to be savagely reinterpreted beyond recognition. So I bit my tongue and stayed silent here. But I am particularly taken aback by the statement "Charles01 recently told me the type of frustration I been expressing on their should go to the ANI...." I have no recollection of having "told" Vauxford that or anything that could have been construed as that. I really think he is ...um .... mistaken with his statement here. Either that, or my mind is going. (Of course, those two possibilities are not necessarily mutually exclusive.) He is, as far as I understand the rules, entitled, as we all are, to write whatever he wishes here. But I think I would have been borderline insane to have "told" (or even recommended) him to do it as he has chosen to. I wonder what you are / he is thinking of with this. Charles01 (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Charles01 I don't even know at this point. I think need a breather from all this because in my head I think I see something someone said but haven't actually said it, I just end up accuse them for no reasons. Even looking back to what I said it starting to not make any sense. Edit: [353] This what I meant. I might of misinterpeted in a way that I thought you were telling me to take my concern about Typ932 to the ANI. --Vauxford (talk) 21:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is an all too predictable response to someone complaining about being hounded by another editor. Personal attacks are not justified by being "frustrated", are a clear violation of wikipedia policy, and need to be stopped. Conflicts of Interest can be reported to the COI Noticeboard. Period. ♟♙ (talk) 14:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More cases of using the "Vauxford Vanity Project" and belittling my own work over someone else. All because of a a short thought about someone else proposal. --Vauxford (talk) 01:51, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to be honest here I don't completely understand this whole COI thing. I been reading about it since but the way it describe doesn't fit the type of edits I do. I'm not closely connected or associated to anything or anyone. I just really love cars of all type and photographing them and thought they be good use in the article. I started this ANI because of the user's behaviour in the long-term. If their more I need to know about this subject please do explain it to me. The diffs I have provided shows he has accused me of edit warring, using wikipedia as some sort of "vanity project" which upsets me each time he uses that term because I know myself that isn't true, he calls my good faith contribution "toxic and delusional" and that I am "degrading Wikipedia". These are the type of comments I get whenever am trying to solve a dispute on the talkpage which is why people could take this as a COI (if am using that correctly) and became a more serious issue then it should to be. --Vauxford (talk) 02:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

COI is different to WP:COI. That sounds silly but the addition of WP: references it to the encylopedia's take on conflict of interest. Editors above that mention COI (without the WP:) are talking about one's conflict of interest when it comes to one's own work. Of course we are going to be biased towards our own contributions, we're going to think that it's great and defend it (to the death for some, figuratively speaking). And this is where editors lose perspective. They get so caught up in defending their work, they get blinded to all else. They start seeing any sort of constructive commentary as attacks on their work, people pointing out areas for improvement become bullies, harassers or hounds (sometimes this is true but for the most part, people generally do act with the best for the project at heart, you know, good faith and all that) and round and round it goes. I mostly restrict myself to copy editing because I'm pretty confident in my writing skills (quite a few of the articles I've copy edited have gone on to pass GA and even 1! FA), but I always keep in mind that at the end of the day no matter how well I think I write, someone else will no doubt come along and improve it, and that's the take home message. Don't get too enamored with your contribution to the article. Blackmane (talk) 05:57, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[354] As much as I wanted Charles01 take his time fine tune his testimony against me and I been making my counter defence one in the process but, I was too shocked the fact he even suggested that I was even using sockpuppet accounts. Apparently people other then him has suspicion that I been using sockpuppet account, for starters I have NOT used any alternative accounts for abusive purposes, the only two accounts I ever created was this one which was orignially Makizox, and Vauxford2 for mostly uploading files from Flickr to Commons with one accidental edit on Wikipedia because I forgot to log in to my main account. I did made some accidental log out edits which I got admins remove them because they revealed my actual IP address and that's it. I tried asking him on his talkpage about where he is getting these so-called suspicions from but it clear he is ignoring me. Along with the many assumption and accusation he has made against me on his testimony just shows the determination he has to throw myself and whatever reputation I ever had on here away. Why am so shocked from this is from my own impression on Wikipedia (which you might think is a bit exaggerating), being known as a sockpuppet user is equivalent to being a known sex offender, people will instantly change the way they think of you and would not have a second thought of what they think about you. --Vauxford (talk) 15:23, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see, the evidences just keep on stacking, sorry if I made this ANI a bit too lengthy for your taste but I really think something must be done. --Vauxford (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[355] It seem Charles01 have made a influence on a user from the lengthy paragraphs he wrote. I reverted the edit telling them that he it not a valid reason to shadow revert a edit over something they weren't involved with. --Vauxford (talk) 09:33, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic
That looks like an IBAN violation, as does this [[356]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
as does this [[357]]. So in fact the pair of you have not taken a blind bit of notice of the IBAN, I would suggest a block for the pair of you.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Slatersteven Wait, I never had a IBAN from U1Quattro. That one done by Sable was revoked wasn't it? I know there was a IBAN propsoal between YBSone and U1Quattro but the one proposed by me and U1Quattro was revoked by a admin over some reason. I really wasn't aware the IBAN was official or not since it was done by Sable. Then he closed it and got reopened by a admin and it just got postponed. Then a separate IBAN was created based on the ANI U1Quattro created which I didn't get involved in. --Vauxford (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Was it, when? I see nothing on your talk page to indicate that.Slatersteven (talk) 18:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can't retrieve the diffs where one of the admins reopen it because they all got suppressed over a unrelated incident. This is why users shouldn't close ANI because it confusing to know which of these mental barriers are active or not. --Vauxford (talk) 18:51, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
[[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vauxford&diff=900659991&oldid=899776308}}, "two-way interaction ban implemented between you and U1Quattro.". I can find nothing that says this was overturned.Slatersteven (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Slatersteven [358] Here it is, and then after that nothing got declared and was automatically archived, I think me and U1Quattro made up by ourselves by not speaking to each other until now. "Apart from the very obvious fact that there is no consensus for any sanctions here, in which case only administrators are in the capacity to impose sanctions" --Vauxford (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Because it got disputed and buried, how am I suppose to know if it in place or not? Unlike the second IBAN proposal where it was only towards U1Quattro and YSBone which was actually in place and the two already got a 2 week block for breaching it. --Vauxford (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I stand corrected, the message on your talk page causes confusion and should have been removed. Its a shame the pair of you could not resist speaking to each other.Slatersteven (talk) 19:06, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Slatersteven Well this talk I had with them today was for once was a lot more friendlier then the others and we came to a agreement that the edits was fine. --Vauxford (talk) 19:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So why did you raise them here?Slatersteven (talk) 19:11, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Because I presumed he jumped on the bandwagon from Charles01's ramble nonsense about me. I was just logging anything that is related to this incident I created and providing as much evidences and diffs as I can. --Vauxford (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Need to revert many edits

User:2605:A000:1327:618E:146:11D3:F12D:9338 unilaterally decided to remove all links to the Science Fiction Book Review Podcast in external links in many articles about science fiction books, calling them “spam”. From the first several edit notes, they found it objectionable that the creator of the podcast, Luke Burrage, inserted those links eleven years ago into about 15 articles. But the IP removed way more than that.

Those links are actually very useful to readers, and should not have been systematically deleted like that. I reverted a couple, but the list of the IP’s edits is too long to tackle one by one. I did try to reach the editor on their talk page, but they’d no doubt long since been switched to a different IP. I’m hoping admins have a better tool to revert all the edits. No picking and choosing needed; their edits consist only of deleting these links. Ping me with any questions. — Gorthian (talk) 02:50, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the IP is cleaning up spam to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:58, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt most editors of those articles would consider those links spam. — Gorthian (talk) 03:08, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What is so special about Luke Burrage or The Science Fiction Book Review Podcast that it should appear as an external link on the article of everything Luke ever read? Sounds like spam to me. It looks like this is, what, Luke Burrage's audio blog? IP is doing good work afaic. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:17, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The podcast is well known in science fiction circles as an intelligent, cogent review of books. It is not spam, especially in the "External links" sections, which is where it is used. Even if Burrage added the links to some articles more than a decade ago, enough editors have found them useful to have added them to many, many more articles. — Gorthian (talk) 03:23, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That viewpoint seems unlikely to be compatible with WP:EL. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As someone trying to remove the use of a celebrity autopsy program as an WP:RS where the host ME never met any of the subjects and might as well be typing trivia into IMDb with their unauthorized 'reports' of how said celebrities died...we've reverted spammers for the same type of keyword spam into articles and their YouTube commentary on something regularly. I have to do the same all the time on television network articles involving illegal websites streaming their content. This is clear WP:SPAM. WP:ITSUSEFUL isn't an argument here, and I wouldn't continue any reversions. External links should be limited to things like the publisher's site for the book and websites about the book from the writers or others. Nate (chatter) 05:26, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thanks for taking the time to read my plea and respond, anyway. Cheers! — Gorthian (talk) 22:08, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Flyingd

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Flyingd keeps adding an number of irrelevant shootings to the article List of airliner shootdown incidents. No matter how many times there was a consensus reached on Talk:List of airliner shootdown incidents, he fails to see them and/or ignores the. Discussion, including a RFC, are persistently polluted with endless side paths.

Flyingd is clearly pushing those attacks on the BOAC777 in a very disruptive manner. His failure to see any consensus of its irrelevance, gives severe concerns about WP:CIR.

On the Dutch Wikipedia he has already a topic ban regarding the attacks ( = the attacks on BOAC Flight 777 on 15 November 1942 and on 19 April 1943.) Seeing his disruptive behaviour, I know call for a topic ban on ENWP, broadly construed, regarding the mentioned attacks. The Banner talk 16:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And more proof of his disruptive behaviour here. The Banner talk 16:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)Restored edit removed by Flyingd.[reply]
@Editors Please read Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#Solution? to get and idea. The rest of the talk page will give a good indication of Banner's adverse behaviour. Flyingd (talk) 17:28, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also please note that I did not add items to the list as Banner states but only added a small, one sentence, note to the existing item 1943 BOAC 777 in the list. Flyingd (talk) 17:41, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please read correctly, as I state that you added irrelevant shootings. Not that you added new items/planes to the list. The Banner talk 22:33, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having read the talk page, I don't see consensus. I see the same editors talking over one another and several references to "previous consensus" without links or other identifying characteristics that would allow someone to locate the discussion. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for seeing that clearly. Flyingd (talk) 18:27, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#BOAC_Flight_777
Talk:List of airliner shootdown incidents#Requested move 22 September 2018 (attempt to widen the scope to include the attacks)
Talk:List of airliner shootdown incidents#revisited: Mentioning two earlier attacks on the same airliner on the same route / BOAC 777
Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#RFC: are earlier attacks, not resulting in a shoot down, relevant
Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#Move to rename article to 'List of attacks on commercial passenger aircraft' (second attempt to widen the scope of the article to include the attacks)
Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#Solution? (third attempt to widen the scope to include the attacks)
The Banner talk 18:39, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So I didn't miss any then? They were all on the current version of the talk page? Because across all those, I count 7 unique participants. Three oppose inclusion, three support inclusion, and one was a single sentence from User:Chris troutman that cited prior consensus, which depended on a conversation from a year prior among the same participants. Sorry, but I'm not seeing consensus anywhere. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: My involved opinion is that this is an attempt to use administrative action to win a content dispute that has gone south. As The Banner noted, this is a multi-wiki dispute. Flyingd and The Banner are both active both on Dutch Wikipedia and here. Flyingd does seem to have a history of tendentious editing, looking at the bottom few sections of nl:User talk:Flyingd (translation). He was topic banned by the Dutch ArbCom back in August, but as you can see had resumed editing the topic by early June of this year, for which reason he was blocked on 5 June; apparently, he was under the impression that his ban should have expired earlier this year, an impression that appears to have been mistaken. (ArbCom was apparently supposed to re-evaluate the ban, but whether or not they did is another question, and a re-evaluation does not mean the ban was supposed to be lifted.) He continued to advocate for his revisions on his talk page, resulting in talk page access being disabled on 8 June.
At that point, he returned to English Wikipedia and began championing his revisions here. (Or other revisions? I'm not really sure whether they were the same edits, but they were within the same topic.) Most of that drama has played out on Talk:List of airliner shootdown incidents, beginning in section revisited: Mentioning two earlier attacks on the same airliner on the same route / BOAC 777. As you can tell from the section header, this issue has been raised before; The Banner, flyingd, and a few other editors argued this same question last year, apparently around the same time as the events that precipitated Flyingd's topic ban on Dutch Wikipedia. As for the current discussion, there are about four sections consisting of Flyingd and The Banner shouting past each other, apparently both unable to communicate in a way that made mutual sense, with the occasional, more-sensible input of Robotje and, to a lesser extent, MilborneOne, although their greater sensibility did not actually help the conversation go anywhere. At some point, a (very biased) RfC was called, and five days and scores of revisions after this argument began, I was summoned by LegoBot to the talk page. That was 12 June.
The fact that Flyingd and The Banner were utterly failing to communicate with each other was obvious to me, so I began trying to distill the real issues in section Re-gathering of issues. The Banner was the first to respond (indeed, Flyingd took a four day break from Wikipedia at this point), and so I began discussing with him, if we can really call it that. During that conversation, The Banner repeatedly engaged in behavior designed to thwart discussion of real content issues and thus prevent the building of consensus. I would encourage you to read section "Re-gathering of issues" and all subsequent discussions, or the ones above as well, to get a full picture of what has been going on, but I'll provide some examples. An easy one is casting aspersions [359][360][361][362] (among many others) and other ad hominem arguments [363][364]. Another common behavior is moving the goalposts, which he uses in combination with wiki-lawyering and other irrelevant arguments over semantics, typically in a pattern of stubbornly pointing to one procedural detail to stonewall discussion, then retreating to another redoubt when someone demonstrates the irrelevance of the procedural detail. See this chain of diffs, where The Banner explains that the discussion, at its core, is about how the Flyingd is attempting to add entries to a section that are irrelevant to the list [365]; I explain why I think they provide relevant context [366]; he diverts to arguing that they are irrelevant to the RfC [367][368]; I reply that what the The Banner raises in the RfC misrepresents the issue Flyingd was trying to raise [369]; The Banner continues to shelter behind the RfC [370]; I point out that I was initially discussing the topic of the RfC [371]; he now retreats to hiding behind the (rather dubious) previous consensus [372]; I point out that consensus can change and that he can’t avoid my new arguments by hiding behind prior consensus [373]; and having apparently run out of things to hide behind, The Banner disengages from that conversation, still having not offered any kind of response to my initial argument about why I believed the content was relevant.
I can point to more diffs: for example, other instances of trying to hide behind consensus, e.g. [374], but I’ll spare you most of them. There is one other chain I should note, however. Otto ter Haar and I have argued that including attempted shootdowns in the list (because there aren’t enough to make a separate list) would benefit the reader. This morning, The Banner made a strawman simplification of our arguments and asked for real content-related ones [375]; I pointed to previous diffs where we made those arguments [376]; he insisted they weren’t content related [377]; I responded that arguments explaining why content benefits the readers are definitely content-related, noted that we had done this senseless arguing over semantics before, and asked that he just respond directly to Otto’s and my arguments or raise some of his own [378]; and then The Banner, apparently exasperated, threatened to take the whole thing to ANI [379]. So here we are.
I hope all of these diffs have helped you gain some context. My own personal (again, definitely involved) reading of the events so far is that while Flyingd has indeed displayed tendentious behavior, The Banner's behavior is far more problematic. He has repeatedly engaged in WP:POINTy behavior, stubbornly sheltering behind procedural details and consistently retreating from one to another when I’ve demonstrated their irrelevance. He has repeatedly framed other editors arguments’ inaccurately to try to gain the advantage. When he runs out of erroneous logic to hide behind, he rage-quits, essentially, disengaging from the conversation until he can find another illegitimate objection to raise. Over the past 16 days of conversation with him, he has raised zero arguments addressing how taking one course of action or another would help or hinder our readers. Has Flyingd engaged in disruptive behavior? Given his repeated refusal to disengage, I would say so. I am, however, convinced he is making a good faith effort to improve this and other articles. He engages with me and other editors, makes real suggestions, and is willing to concede the point when he's been convinced. That’s more than I can say about The Banner. Compassionate727 (T·C) 18:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*This was much longer than I expected it to be. My apologies for burdening you with this, but I do think it is all relevant. For anyone not wanting to read the entire thing, the meat of my argument is the last three paragraphs; the others are context. Anyone with suggestions on how I might trim or refactor this is encouraged to mention them. Compassionate727 (T·C) 18:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

True, I indeed disengaged a bit as you wandered into every side road Flyingd opened without going back to the issue at hand. I know that I am not well (depression) at the moment and disengaging is one thing I do for self-protection. The Banner talk 19:21, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that depressive episodes suck (I have the disorder too), but that is not a satisfactory answer for the behavior I just described. Compassionate727 (T·C) 22:13, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If I look at the last 185 edits of Flyingd on en-wiki almost all of them are directly or indirectly related to BOAC Flight 777 and prior incidents involving that airplane. As far as it is on the article BOAC Flight 777 that is off course OK. For other articles his behaviour is more like a kind of name dropping; trying to squeeze in some (extra) information on the flight in articles about pretty unrelated topics. In at least one case he started pushing on making the scope of the article extra broad by changing the article title so he could squeeze in some extra information on the incidents on that airplane in that article. After a discussion that was turned down so he just waited another year and started trying it again probably hoping the others would not notice or just give up. When I tried to have a discussion with him he tried to ignore my arguments and instead started importing problems from the nl-wiki about similar problems he encountered there. The 185 edits I mentioned above were done over a time span from 30 September 2012 until now. So over the last 7 years his focus on en-wiki was mostly on incidents that airplane was involved in. Adding information on the article about that flight is perfectly OK with me. I suggest a topic ban on en-wiki for him on anything about that airplane and the incidents including talk pages (maybe with an exception for the BOAC Flight 777 article and talk page for that article). After pushing for 7 years it is now enough. - Robotje (talk) 20:17, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point out to me where I am/was "trying to squeeze in some (extra) information on the flight in articles about pretty unrelated topics."? Can you also point out where I have ignored your arguments? Flyingd (talk) 08:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Douglas DC-3, [KLM, section The 1940s and 1950s, [KLM, Section Incidents and accidents for example. The Banner talk 08:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The addition to this section Notable incidents without fatalities in the above mentioned article seems perfectly in place and related. If you have another opinion on that please explain it. Flyingd (talk) 08:35, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of fact, it seems odd that in the edit of the 19 April attack ([KLM, Section Incidents and accidents]) there is no mention of the final shootdown allowed. This is just an example of how 'some editors' would remove such info without any normal discussion other then saying it's irrelevant with some ban/tban request threats, start an editwar and arrange for a TBAN and several bans for some days as has happened on the Dutch wiki.
I insist such a mention where any other attack on the Ibis is mentioned could be relevant to many readers. The Ibis is the only airliner in the world that was attacked 3 times (in 7 months). I see no reason to obfuscate this fact to the reader by not allowing a short one sentence mention of previous cq. later attacks when one of the attacks is mentioned in an article or list. Flyingd (talk) 12:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I just noticed that mentions of the two non-fatal attacks and the last fatal attack on the Ibis have been removed from KLM#Incidents_and_accidents. Does this serve the Wikipedia? Flyingd (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Flyingd, as for your question for examples of you trying to squeeze in that kind of information in en-wiki articles The Banner already gave some examples and if you really interested, I can add more. Just let me know. Then about ignoring. I guess your question is related to my remark "When I tried to have a discussion with him he tried to ignore my arguments and instead started importing problems from the nl-wiki about similar problems he encountered there." I was referring to your 'Ah, there you are' edit. - Robotje (talk) 19:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You know very well that I reacted to you here: [380] (right bottom) Flyingd (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That link doesn't work for me. - Robotje (talk) 17:35, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
sorry, fixed Flyingd (talk) 18:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
After my remark "When I tried to have a discussion with him he tried to ignore my arguments and instead started importing problems from the nl-wiki about similar problems he encountered there." you asked me: "Can you also point out where I have ignored your arguments?" I explained where that was based on and now your response is "You know very well that I reacted to you here ..." As everybody can see, your first reply was the 'Ah, there you are' edit where you were importing a problem from nl-wiki but ignored the whole point I was refering to. Only after I pushed for it you finaly responded and again you were importing the problem from nl-wiki. That underscores "When I tried to have a discussion with him he tried to ignore my arguments and instead started importing problems from the nl-wiki about similar problems he encountered there." Now clear? - Robotje (talk) 08:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus can change, and there wasn't much to begin with. Restarting a discussion after a year seems extraordinarily patient to me. Also, if nearly all of his edits over the last 7 years are about this plane, isn't proposing a TBAN effectively a ban? Argento Surfer (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but a TBAN would still be preferred (because he might theoretically find something else to work on). Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
After waiting for a year this was his first edit. He did not try to resume the discussion to find out if the situation was changed or not, he just started adding text in that article he likes to spread all over in articles that could be a tiny bit related to his favourite topic. To me it is obvious he is not doing that for the readers. BTW, he did in the beginning edit on other items on en-wiki. - Robotje (talk) 21:07, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that previous attacks on the same airplane on the same route within 7 months are a 'tiny bit related' to the last fatal attack? Are you deciding this for the readers? Flyingd (talk) 15:13, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Flyingd, next time please try to read more carefully. I wrote "... articles that could be a tiny bit related to his favourite topic." so not incidents but articles that are a tiny bit related. Take this edit of you about an air race. The Ibis airplane (DC-3) had nothing to do with that race. You seem to have mixed up with the Uiver airplane (DC-2) that did participate in that air race. It was DragonFury not me who decided it was not relevant for the readers. - Robotje (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*This is going to sound like I am trying to cast doubt on the motives of Robotje's comments above, which I am not, but because I am currently the only one providing any information on the happenings on Dutch Wikipedia, I believe I should, for comprehensiveness's sake, note that Robotje and Flyingd also have a history with each other there. I would simply add this information to my own comment, but it's been too long to do so. Compassionate727 (T·C) 22:13, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: As an involved editor I concur with Compassionate727s opinion that while Flyingd has indeed displayed tendentious behavior, The Banner's behavior is far more problematic. Otto (talk) 10:59, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I also concur with Compassionate727's opinion except the part about my alleged 'tendentious behavior'. I do not know where I have displayed such behaviour. Just in case: I don't regard the countless reverts of Banner's undo's of my edits, without any relevant discussion from Banner's side, as tendentious. Flyingd (talk) 11:26, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How many times have you reverted my edits without a single word of explanation or without any relevant discussion from Flyingd's side. I call this pushing, tendentious and disruptive. The Banner talk 14:26, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You know it is exactly the other way around. I have never reverted any edits that you initiated. I don't follow your edits. I did revert countless undo's on my edits from you. Could you please try to focus on the discussion above where you answered a question that I had directed to Robotje? Flyingd (talk) 14:46, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • a question to Banner, Robotje and MilborneOne: at Leslie_Howard#Death the previous attacks on the Ibis are described (not by me). Do you believe mentioning the earlier attacks in this article is correct? Or would you say the previous attacks had nothing to do with the last attack (in which Howard died) and mention of the previous attacks are irrelevant and should be removed (as per your logic which you have been using to undo my edits)? Flyingd (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your long term obsession with the subject but this is not the place to discuss content issues. MilborneOne (talk) 12:26, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly the issue why I ended up here and your reaction will give admins a good idea on how any relevant discussion is avoided. The only obsession I see is the obsession of a few editors (including yourself) with me. Flyingd (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Claiming that the above is a content issue and using this as a reason not to give a relevant reaction is ridiculous as it is obvious I mentioned the Howard article as an example closely related to the reason Banner requested a TBAN for me. Flyingd (talk) 14:20, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This, opening up another side discussion to confuse the main discussion, is a perfect example of the way you disrupt discussions. The Banner talk 15:06, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't this discussion about a closely related example touch on the reason you requested a TBAN on me: Adding other attack info where one attack is mentioned? Isn't that why you got us here in the 1st place? Hardly a disruptive side discussion. Yet another example of not reacting to/avoiding the issue at hand. Flyingd (talk) 15:28, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Flyingd, After August 2012 you made more than 200 edits and by far most of them were about the incidents that airplane was involved in, squeezing (extra) information about those incidents in a lot of (almost) unrelated articles, trying to justify that you did so on talk pages, etc. The fact that you bring up just another similar topic (seems like you want to justify your behaviour because somebody added that information in ONE article) is just underscoring the issue with you. In the discussion abobe you blamed three coworkers to be obsessed with you. I was hesistating to use the word obsession/obesessed/etc. but to me it is becomes more and more clear you are obsessed with those incidents and your main purpose for being active on Wikipedia (including but not only en-wiki) is to get information about those incidents in a lot of articles on Wikipedia. For the article about the last flight (and the talkpage for that article) adding information related to that airplane and having related discussions about that is OK. For the rest this behavoiur became more and more troublesome. I think a topic ban for you on this issue is a good sollution, the sooner the better. - Robotje (talk) 09:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Most of these edits have been reverting undo's from the same few editors and trying to discuss (to no avail) on talk pages. Flyingd (talk) 10:28, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Involved but I would support the original proposal by User:The Banner that we need a topic ban on Flyingd on anything related to BOAC Flight 777 as per a similar ban on Dutch wikipedia. MilborneOne (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Admins please note I started the Dutch BOAC Flight 777 article back in 2010 (translating bit by bit from the english article). Banner endlessly editwarred me there with among others his opinion that any reference to the previous attacks were irrelevant in an article BOAC 777 and should only be mentioned in a page about the airplane itself behind the wikilink PH-ALI. According to the Banner the airplane was the only common ground for the 3 attacks so the 3 attacks can only be mentioned together in an article about this airplane. Flyingd (talk) 16:46, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Indeed I received a TBAN from the Dutch ARBCOM for a very similar case and I have stated that the Dutch ARBCOM is either corrupt or incapable. I hope the latter, not enough manpower/time to sift through endless non-reactive discussions and just taking a one-person extensive description of my 'misbehavings' as the truth. Flyingd (talk) 17:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
During World War 2 between 50 million to over 80 million died.[381] In 1942 and 1943 millions of poeple were murdered in extermination camps or killed at battle fiels, bombing of cities, etc. In 1942 and 1943 millions of others got severly injured/handicaped. In november 1942 an airplane was involved in an incident when flying from Portugal to England. It looks like nobody was hurt or killed, only some damage to the airplain that still could fly hunderds of kilometers from Bay of Biscay to England and safely land there. In april 1943 something similar happened, nobody was hurt or killed, only some damage to the airplain that still could fly hunderds of kilometers from Bay of Biscay to England and safely land there. For Flyingd both minor incidents were such an extremely important part of World War 2 that he added these minor incidents in the article about 1942 [382] and 1943 [383]. Flyingd also thought quite a lot more (almost) unrelated articles had to be modified to add some (extra) information about his favorite topic. Similar behaviour on nl-wiki caused him to get a topic ban by the arbcom there and now he thinks that unless they were incapable people they must have accepted some money or so in order to have a topic ban imposed on him. Soon after he was blocked there for one week for violating that decision of the arbcom, he resumed his troublesome behaviour here. - Robotje (talk) 10:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
With his remark Indeed I received a TBAN from the Dutch ARBCOM for a very similar case and I have stated that the Dutch ARBCOM is either corrupt or incapable. Flyingd makes clear that no compromise whatsoever is acceptable to him. So restrictions need to be enforceable. A topic ban is the most friendly way to let him change his ways. The Banner talk 21:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still not yet convinced of the necessity of a topic ban. I've only seen two diffs here where Flyingd added information to pages where it obviously did not belong (the two Robotje supplied earlier today), and that was less a disruptive "this is completely irrelevant" than a simple editorial issue (all items in those year lists should be notable, i.e., have their own articles). So far, I've seen a lot of shouting, finger-pointing, accusations of tendentious editing, etc. Can I see 1) more diffs of Flyingd adding information to clearly irrelevant articles, in order to establish a long-term pattern, and 2) diffs where someone calmly, clearly explained to Flyingd why adding that information did a disservice to the reader or was bad for the Project? Unless we can establish both that there is a long-term pattern of misbehavior and that previous attempts to address the behavior in a more constructive manner have failed, I do not believe that the need for a topic ban is demonstrated.
I am, however, of the opinion that no-fault interaction bans are warranted at this stage. Compassionate727 (T·C) 14:17, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Compassionate727, it turns out you did your edit while I was still working on my last edit. In that edit I wrote to Flyingd: "Take this edit of you about an air race. The Ibis airplane (DC-3) had nothing to do with that race. You seem to have mixed up with the Uiver airplane (DC-2) that did participate in that air race." I think that is just another example of adding text about his favourite topic in an article about an unrelated topic. Togehter with the other two that makes 3, already enough for a pattern I would say. I will try to find a few more of this kind of edits. - Robotje (talk) 14:39, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please do. I am not convinced, and I think you will struggle to convince most uninvolved editors, that three edits from 7 and 11 years ago warrant a topic ban. Compassionate727 (T·C) 19:32, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What about edits like [384] and [385]. The first one was undone soon after his edit so a few years later he just tried it again. The topic of the article is a type of airplane made by the Douglas company. Both perfectly fits the pattern of adding info about his favourite topic in articles about basically unrelated topics. The problem becomes now more clear? - Robotje (talk) 10:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The first diff was reverted with the summary "too much detail". The second diff, added four years later, has less detail. Seems like a good faith effort to me. It also went uncontested for four years until you removed it without comment. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:JJMC89 behavior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've encountered the unusual situation, one that I've not seen in 12 years on Wikipedia, of an editor who has taken it upon himself or herself to look at individual user pages and then to "boldly edit" them [386]. I responded with a warning to the editor's talk page [387], but I would not be surprised if the editor is doing this to the user pages of other editors, and feel that this is a practice that should be discouraged. The editor's identified status as a Wikipedia administrator might deter other editors from objecting to a rather heavy-handed, if not arrogant, invasion of their own user pages.

Perhaps this editor is correct, perhaps not, that use of the image, identified with a public domain tag [388], is a violation of WP:NFCC; that's irrelevant for something that hasn't moved to the point of being displayed as an article. Once it is an article placed on "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", then anyone can edit it. On a personal page, however, I think it easily qualifies as aggressive behavior. It's somewhat disturbing that there's an individual who is scanning through other editors' user pages in his or her spare time, and then quietly "correcting" them. It's bad precedent to allow this type of intrusion to become acceptable behavior. Mandsford 17:29, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The bot is doing it's job to remove NFCC content from non-mainspace (WP:NFCC #9)... What's the issue? The image is clearly tagged as NFCC, and even has specific warnings not to copy to commons because of its non-free derivative nature. -- ferret (talk) 17:34, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Mandsford, you need to read the policies, that you cite. WP:NFCCP#9 is quite lucidly written. FWIW, I have not seen you either, prior to this thread which smacks of an assumption of bad faith. Also, are you coming across a bot, for the first time, in your 12 years of wikilife? WBGconverse 17:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It must be a mistake. The image is not in public domain.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This strikes me as an innocent misunderstanding arising from a technical issue: the public domain tag (relating to the underlying source material) is presented by the image previewer, misleading people about the images' actual status. Mackensen(talk) 17:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)…[reply]
(edit conflict) I understand Ferret's response. I think WBG's comment is unnecessarily snarky. I don't quite understand Ymblanter's comment, although I suspect it's just too brief for me. Putting aside that Mandsford is wrong on the merits, I don't understand why they didn't discuss the issue with JJMC89 first. The one comment I can see that they posted on JJMC89's Talk page was more of an attack than the opening of a dialogue.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:57, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The OP clearly thinks (and says this) that the image is in the public domain, hence possibly the misunderstanding. But, indeed, the talk page of JJMC89 must have been the first stop here.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying, I figured it was me being dense.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:04, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In case it's not clear yet, for Mandsford: JJMC89 is not scanning through other editor's user pages in his spare time. This action is being performed automatically by an approved bot, not a human. -- ferret (talk) 18:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BBB:- Mandsford's responses over his own t/p, JJCM89's t/p and this thread smacks of a default assumption of bad faith. From his stating that he had not seen JJMC over his 12 years of editing (which I read in a patronizing tone) to his so-called warnings. I genuinely suspect that he does not know about how bots work or you need to additionally consider the prospect that he is intentionally accusing JJMC89 of invading user-pages in spare-time. Incidentally, he became a sysop in 2010 and there are 2 admin-actions after 2013. WBGconverse 18:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That was a misunderstanding related to this being a bot. He left the message, JJMC89 bot (who the OP thought was JJMC89 himself) removed the image again without responding to the message, and he came here. Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate most of the responses. I drew the wrong conclusion from the image, but the labels on it are ambiguous; perhaps the label on it should be clarified. Mandsford 18:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see what is ambiguous about: "Re-users of this content … need … a fair use or similar legal claim to use the depiction of the copyrighted work." Please explain. Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:18, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to this edit, the file was displaying some PD tsg.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that was clearly incorrect then. Thanks for clarifying. Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The most frightening thing about this episode is that the original poster has administrator rights. Should that really be the case for someone who doesn't seem to know what a bot is, and who has such a basic misunderstanding of our copyright policies and WP:OWN? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interestingly, the closing statement on Mandsford's RfA says, in part, "While there are several valid reasons given by those opposing this candidacy, the reasons basically boil down to 'he doesn't completely understand all the policies and guidelines'.. The closer brushed that off, but maybe that wasn't such a good idea. Perhaps 'crats shouldn't promote when there are serious concerns over the candidate's knowledge of our policies and guidelines? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Obvious sock and revision deletion

Hi, the article Otto Brixner consists of lots of libelous content as a IP told USer:78.26 today ([389]), e.g.:

  • "who sentenced the justice victim Gustl Mollath into a forensic hospital" - when do you have a justice victim???
  • "once hiding in bushes along with other undercover investigators" - suggests that he is very interested in putting people to jail
  • "As a supervisor, he eliminated the fee demands of the supervisor which in his opinion were excessive. As a result, those affected had complained about him in a protest march to the president of the judiciary. Although Brixner was transferred to another position, he was regulated the supervisor by law" - suggests that he should not be supervisor any longer
  • "ever made use of communication in criminal proceedings (So-called. Deal on penalty), that is, a practice widely used in criminal justice" - in German law this Deal is something suspect, but the article suggests that Brixner acted rather unusual
  • "considered a judge that is a 'tough dog' ("Judge Mercyless")" - insult
  • "Mollath had presented the court, as proof of his black-money allegations, with a 106-page folder with receipts to accounts in Switzerland and other evidence documents. In his interrogation before the committee of inquiry of the Bavarian state parliament said Brixner on 17 May 2013 that he had never read this folder" - libel, especially since according to German law the court maybe wasn't allowed to read this folder (because the accused has to give his statement orally only)
  • "The revelations to Gustl Mollath and Otto Brixner" - I mean "revelations" ...
  • "In addition to demands for reforms in psychiatry and justice, it was required to hold those responsible to account. Above all, the former judge Otto Brixner was named.[15] In its final report, the committee of inquiry stated that it was refusing to punish Brixner." - libel, the article says that Brixner should have been punished
  • "Otto Brixner had interrupted the defendant Gustl Mollath each time loudly and threatened with a reference to the room if [...] Literally, Brixner, addressed to Mollath, had shouted: "If you keep this up, you'll never come out again" (referring to the psychiatry department) [...] Brixner had shouted at Mollath for over eight hours without interruption.[17] [...] Brixner had acted like a "dictator."[18] [...] when you call Otto Brixner, you have to be prepared to barely speak one sentence to the end. He speaks in a very harsh tone." - a lot of irrelevant information, overinterpreting the cited sources and libel
  • "Brixner had determined the appointment of the court on his own initiative, refrained from hearing the accused and operated a willful falsification of the facts with the documentary material available to him" - libel taken from a text of a lawyer that has never been proven. Even the article itself says "appealed in advance for a possible retrial, in particular to a blog entry[24] the former prosecutor Gabriele Wolff" and Gabriele Wolff was never involved into this case.
  • "outrage against Brixner was ignited by the fact that it is the fundamental obligation of all German courts to take full note" - as I said, according to German law the accused has to give his statement orally
  • "Brixner is also already in the run-up to the criminal proceedings in a telephone conversation with the financial management caused Mollath's allegations concerning the black money allegations to be discontinued by the tax investigation authorities" - libel that has already been proven to be not true

These contents where imported and translated from German Wikipedia, where they have been removed since and where the article is now blocked. According to this hints User:Xaosflux removed the imported revisions from deWP. Remaining are still further revisions with the same contents until this version. Unfortunately today a obvious sockpuppet of Hans Haase who translated this article reverted these improvements, so that we again have this libelous revision. That Wikicare-en is a sockpuppet can be seen from his argument "Undo whitewashing" ([390]) which is used by Hans Haase too ([391]). So I would ask you to delete the revisions prior to [392] as well as younger than [393]. Maybe it would make sense to block Hans Haase and his sockpuppet. Thank you --Domitius Ulpianus (talk) 19:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Acknowledging I'm aware I was mentioned above. I'm not following up on this beyond having already reversed my own transwiki-import as the dewiki article is under review. While we do not require imported history, it is customary to do so with dewiki to meet their normal processes. If technical assistance is required regarding history imports once the other factors are resolved please feel free to let me know. — xaosfluxTalk 19:46, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep out German users and users with possible bias in the case, have only American or English users review the artcle. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 19:52, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
... since American or English users have a better understanding of German Law and of the crimes you accuse Brixner?! --Domitius Ulpianus (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dont assume others for supid, there are enough German speakers in America. By the way You blamed me for a "obvious sockpuppet ", dont assume this! --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC) The word "whitewashing" was already used in the German discussion on 1 July 2019 (CEST) at 23:54. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:22, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Domitius Ulpianus is talking about an old revision before 19 March 2019. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm talking about all old revisions before 16 June 2019 and all revisions after 3 July 2019! Don't assume me for stupid AND it is not about understanding German language but about knowing German criminal law. --Domitius Ulpianus (talk) 20:16, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is a content dispute and does not belong here. I see some discussion on the talk page so a WP:RFC is the next step there. MarnetteDTalk 20:19, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a content dispute but a dispute about revision deletion and sockpuppet-abuse. I am not interested in the content of this article but I want illegal content to be removed that claims a living person has commited crimes!" --Domitius Ulpianus (talk) 20:26, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You do realise that when you say "I am not interested in the content of this article but I want illegal content to be removed that claims a living person has commited crimes!" you contradict yourself in the same sentence, don't you? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there is a signifiant difference whether someone abuses an article to claim a living and named person had comitted crimes or someone says that this action of a -not personally known- user is problematic. I apology for my wording; it was due to my -perhaps exaggerated- anger. --Domitius Ulpianus (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the unintelligible English alone, if not the painfully obvious RIGHTGREAT, the article needs to go back to some last good version. EEng 00:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. An article on the Gustl Mollath judge? This is not going to end well...

I'll see what I can do (as a content editor and/or mediator) as I was extremely interested in this affair when this judge's victim was still locked up in a closed psychiatric ward. Maybe we can get rid of the article. I am not sure the judge is notable independent from the Mollath affair, but then I haven't looked at the article and the judge-specific guidelines yet.

In any case, get prepared for years of disruption. Hans Adler 16:41, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I hope not. I welcome your contribution. Part of the problem here, as can be seen above, is stuff that is not very good English; using the wrong words and saying things other than what is actually intended. I believe that you'll be able to help with that, if nothing else. And the explanation that we do not do these things in the form of biographies is a good one. Uncle G (talk) 02:11, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    So far there has been almost no feedback to my wall of text at Talk:Gustl Mollath#A vision for dealing with this topic. I take this as a good sign, for now, though it could also make things difficult if some players with strong opinions are hard to reach. Currently I would prefer writing an article about the whole affair from scratch on my own rather than starting with the contentious articles that were imported from the German Wikipedia. Maybe this is possible, after all.
    Sooner or later we are also going to get an article about a certain prominent German psychiatrist whose role in this affair wasn't glorious, either. Maybe the German Wikipedia takes the heat off these articles, but if not, our only chance is to get neutral articles on the complex before the fighting breaks out here as well and neither side is happy with a neutral article. Hans Adler 08:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I am not an admin. Even if I were able to make revision deletions, I would still not see this as my job at Otto Brixner and Gustl Mollath. I haven't even looked at the mess that is currently lying around there, and am not planning to. Hans Adler 08:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Xinjiang Pages and User:Alexkyoung

User:Alexkyoung and several apparent sockpuppets have been blocked indefinitely. Fut.Perf. 09:20, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm not quite sure of the standard procedure here, so I apologize in advance if there are issues with how I've handled this or if this would be more appropriate on a different noticeboard like NPOV or DR. I've begun to become worried about POV-pushing behavior on some of the Xinjiang related articles by user:Alexkyoung. It started for me when I noticed some misused citations and OR on the article History of Xinjiang, which made me feel that it read like propaganda in some places. In the discussion on the talk page that followed (Talk:History of Xinjiang#Citation misuse), user:Tobby72 brought it to my attention that there's apparently been a pattern of biased editing on a number of Xinjiang related pages from Alexkyoung: diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff.

I was also worried by ownership-like behavior from Alexkyoung, particularly this post: [394]. I wasn't able to find anything that indicated that consensus had been reached, so I wrote a note saying as much, only for it to be deleted and responded to with the accusation that I was trying to start an edit-war [395]. I initially thought it was just a problem on one article or perhaps an extreme response during an argument; at one point I felt really guilty about having potentially misconstrued Alexkyoung's behavior and apologized to him on his talk page. Since then I have reviewed the edit history and been somewhat disturbed by edits made with edit summaries like this: [396]. I'm not really sure what to do because I hate to write all this negative stuff about an individual editor's behavior, especially as in my view, Alexkyoung has been largely civil with me. However I've become increasingly concerned that there's a greater pattern of POV-pushing and page ownership and was hoping others would be able to look into it. Darthkayak (talk) 11:29, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First it is more productive to edit wikis yourself than to complain about others. I've had to annotate your response to pinpoint exactly which places are of dubious concern. I helped better organize the Xinjiang article, fixing many grammatical and stylistic articles. Most people have thanked me for my edits, and even you would have to admit that my edits have made the wiki much better on the whole. If there are remaining places where you would like to improve the article, then DIY. If you make general accusations and targeted attacks like those above, then it becomes hard for me to help you improve this wiki, which in the end is the ultimate goal for all of us (that is, I hope your main motive is to improve wiki and not discriminate against a specific user).
Second if you really hate writing bad, untrue things about your fellow wiki users, then do not. There is no 'pattern', and most of those edits were from more than a month ago. As I have told you before, the 'misused citations' were there before I made the edits, and I still fixed them for you (and the earlier editor, whoever it was). Most of my edits deal with fixing style and formatting and grammar. Most of the info I have added has been cited or deal with neutral topics.
Sirlanz stopped reverting so that was taken as a sign of consensus, since the original requests were made by him, which I fixed for him. Furthermore you pointed out specific lines and sections where the article could be improved, and I answered your call. In both cases, I welcomed you to make specific edits yourself; and in both cases, I ended up fixing the specific critiques for you. So who is the one making the positive contributions to the article? Moreover, I have been thanked many times for my contributions to this wikipedia. My contributions benefit this wikipedia and make it a better place. Darthkayak, if you provide specific feedback to exactly which lines of an article need to be fixed, rather than make general accusations, then I can help you improve the existing articles. Alexkyoung (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The political agenda [specify] pursued by the subject editor is patent but generally skilfully executed so as to divert attention or to make targeted re-editing a major chore (who has that sort of time to spare? [if you have no time, then why waste your time complaining]). Admin(s) were easily duped [are you implying the admins are stupid?] when I crossed paths with this editor [specify] and I decided to leave the scene, notwithstanding the ongoing infection [specify] of the encyclopaedia. sirlanz 02:19, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no political agenda. Sirlanz left the scene, so that was taken as a sign of consensus, since the original requests were made by Sirlanz. He gave me specific feedback, and I responded. In general, if you guys give me specific feedback, like which sources to fix or which specific lines to fix, I will respond. I thank Sirlanz and Darthkayak for pinpointing specific lines or sources that needed to be fixed, and I did fix those in front of your very eyes. But if you emptily accuse me of very general things, it is hard for me to help you.Alexkyoung (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The obvious [weasel word] anti-Uyghur [this is your pov] POV-pushing [unfounded]: [397], [398], [399], [400], [401], [402]. File a report at NPOV noticeboard per WP:NPOVD. -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get delusional. There's nothing anti-Uyghur about that. Read about the 2014 Kunming attack or other terror-related incidents in China. Look I'm all against any discrimination against minorities, but as per wikipedia guidelines, it is best that all of us stick to the neutral viewpoint, rather than regurgitate what you read in tabloid journalism.
The user's edits to this article Foreign interventions by the United States are amongst the most extraordinary I've ever seen on WP.Nickm57 (talk) 21:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean by 'most extraordinary' but Jamez42 appreciates them. Citobun destructively reverted my edits (which organized the article better), but then Jamez42 reverted Citobun back to my edits. DavidMCEddy even thanked me for my edits.Alexkyoung (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have also encountered this user's POV-pushing, on the article Gui Minhai. He was purposely misconstruing the content of several reliable sources to make it appear like they depicted the allegations of the Chinese government as fact, and continually edit warring over the issue despite three separate users (myself included) objecting to his dubious contributions. Citobun (talk) 05:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nickm57:, I just reverted those edits diff. This user is obviously WP:NOTHERE to build an impartial encyclopedia, but to push the viewpoint of the Chinese government. Citobun (talk) 05:49, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Citobun, they do not appear to have been reverted. Jayjg(talk) 18:03, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Jamez42 reverted back to Alexkyoung's original version diff, and DavidMCEddy thanked Alexkyoung for the edits. Alexkyoung has certainly been appreciated for his positive contributions to the wikis many times before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkyoung (talkcontribs) 28 june 2019 (UTC)
What a blatant lie and targeted smear-campaigning. I had a conversation with OhConfucius about this, and he thanked me for my edits. In the end OhConfucius took a middle ground between me and Citobun. Citobun, it is in your best interest to stop attacking and retaliating. You made a series of destructive reverts that were not appreciated.Alexkyoung (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is against the collaborative nature of wikipedia to target a civil user who has been thanked many times for their contributions to improving wikipedia. I would suggest that we can all work together to improve the existing encyclopedia, but the first step would be to stop blaming each other and state very specifically which places, lines, sources need to be amended. We each have certain similarities and differences in interest, so in the end it is probably best to stick to your pages; and then I will stick to my own. Alexkyoung (talk) 20:32, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have read into what kinds of issues merit being posted here, and this one does not deserve to be. This is not chronic, nor is it urgent. I have stated repeatedly that if you pinpoint specifically and exactly which sources and lines need to be fixed, then I can help you fix that. I have also repeatedly invited others to make edits themselves, but they continue to complain rather than contribute to this wiki. If anything their behaviors should be examined more closely. Some of the things like 'citation misuse' do not even belong to me, but to some other wiki user. I still gladly fixed it for them, but to my irritation, these users continue to harass me by blaming me for other people's mistakes. Lastly, it must be emphasized: many of the mentioned edits are from nearly two months ago and form a small fraction of all of my wikipedia contributions. Many users have personally thanked me for my edits, and on the whole, I have made wikipedia a better place. So to the admin reading this, this case should be discarded as it is clear that these other users are not teamplayers, whose main objective is not to improve wikipedia but to take down another civil, positive-contributing user. I will not let them bring me down, and I will continue to make positive edits to improve this wiki; many of my fellow wiki users support me, and I trust the admins of good faith and judgement to support me as well. Alexkyoung (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alexkyoung's beahvior is troublesome:

: I'm really sorry to be bringing this up late, but this is really inappropriate. I cannot find anything on this talk page that indicates that consensus has been reached other than the proclamation here. Darthkayak (talk) 23:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

edit-summary ‎Enough

  • 28 june he removed another comment from Darthkayak,

I don't think my specific points have really been addressed. In addition to the Hultvall stuff, the question of original synthesis still remains. Perhaps we should take it to a noticeboard for discussion? Darthkayak (talk) 21:05, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

edit-summary [[tq remove unproductive, irrelevant libel as per Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines}}

  • 28 june he removed a response from Darthkayak:

Why was my comment above deleted? That's not really ok, unless it's established to not be in accordance with WP:TPO, and even then, standard practice is to leave it up as documentation of my errors for potential dispute resolution. An unsigned comment declaring consensus achieved without summary, particularly considering that there was no closure of the discussion, reads like a statement of article ownership, and in that sense, I felt it was inappropriate. Darthkayak (talk) 08:58, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

edit-summary removed off-topic material as per Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines

I utterly fail to see how I don't think my specific points have really been addressed. In addition to the Hultvall stuff, the question of original synthesis still remains. Perhaps we should take it to a noticeboard for discussion? could be considered libel, nor how Darthkayak's questions about Alexkyoung's behavior could be considered off-topic. On the contrary, his behavior is WP:DISRUPTIVE, and should stop immediately. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:08, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"it is probably best to stick to your pages; and then I will stick to my own" [403]. History of Xinjiang is not your page, Alexkyoung. That is an incredibly blatant claim of article ownership - I'm just shocked. I didn't initially blame you for the mistakes of others, nor did I claim it was you who was responsible for the citation misuse - I didn't accuse you or anyone of being responsible for the issues with the article, I simply said they were a problem. It was only after I was shown the diffs that I learned that there were long standing concerns about POV-pushing.
I am not trying to "screw you over" [404], or make an "empty claim because others have" [405]. What I am now disturbed by is the way your conduct regarding the article has turned increasingly towards policing. Sirlanz no longer reverting isn't necessarily a sign of general consensus without agreement on the talk-page, but even if it was, consensus can change. You recently told Citobun "stop, you're late to the party, this was resolved a long time ago, and remaining pov was in this article before the edits" - not only is it not resolved, but why should he not get involved simply because he was several weeks late? Not that I am saying a revert is necessary, but to try and look at it from his point of view, sometimes material isn't fixed in a quick fashion. That information on a page is long-standing has no impact on whether it should stay - I recently performed a revert on a page where the intro appeared to have been edited to read like an advertisement roughly a year ago. Statements like "moving forward only existing content shall be edited or added to" [406] are against the spirit of a wiki.
For those interested in looking to the talk page, I should mention that Alexkyoung keeps deleting people's comments on the History of Xinjiang talk page, claiming they are libel or irrelevant [407][408].
Lastly, I should note that I am trying to be helpful [409] - raising concerns about an article's contents on the talk page without editing (particularly when it is so long), is a vital part of the process, and one of the things which prevents the cycle of edits and reverts that compose an edit war from occurring [410]. No one here is being a "complainer" and it makes me sad that someone would accuse anyone of that. Darthkayak (talk) 21:11, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized User:Alexkyoung heavily edited my signed comments on this page with his own "annotations" and rebuttals in parentheses. I'm trying to find the words for how upset I am by this behavior. [411][412] I also would like to ask him why he chose to leave this unsigned comment on this page in the third person, [413]. Darthkayak (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This behaviour is indeed troubling. @Darthkayak: would you mind restoring your postings to their legitimate form? You can probably figure out more quickly than I could what they should look like. @Alexkyoung: Do not ever do that again. I'm looking some further into these diffs, but at the moment I tend towards the view that a lengthy block for tendentious/disruptive editing may be required here. Fut.Perf. 21:35, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored my initial post as best I can tell, though I might have left something in by accident - those interested in what Alexkyoung added to my post can check the two diffs above. The comments from @Sirlanz: and @Tobby72: were also similarly annotated by Alexkyoung - as the annotations are crossed out they may have already seen, but I'm pinging them just to be sure. Darthkayak (talk) 09:17, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The behavior of Alexkyoung seems to be part of prolonged edit-warring at History of Xinjiang: diff diff diff diff diff. He's claiming a consensus for his edits, where actually there is a consensus that his edits are unacceptable. Deeply disruptive. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:34, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note also the edits at South Korea–United States relations. This type of POV editing renders the WP project useless in my opinion. Some of the cited sources are selectively used and are personal blogs. A number are not available in English - so difficult to check. One thing is admirable about this user however - the speed with which she or he is working their way through wikipedia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly urge you to read through my response again.

As I have said, I will be happy to help you improve the wiki if you pinpoint specific places where the article should be improved. When I am being accused of things like this, it is hard for me to help. As the above discussion shows, people are more focused on finding excuses to attack me rather than to actually improve the content of existing articles. That is why I labeled these personal attacks as off-topic and libel. But if you wish to keep it there go ahead.

When I say 'my articles' I do not mean it as a sign of ownership. What happened is that after I accused Citobun of disruptive edits on Gui Minhai, Citobun just retaliated and disruptively edit-warred many of the articles that I had recently edited.

If you believe History of Xinjiang is not resolved, then tell me: exactly where should it be improved. If it reads like propaganda, tell me where it reads like propaganda. If there is OR or synthesis, tell me exactly where there is OR or synthesis. If you read satan or the PRC in between the lines, tell me which lines, and I can help you purge it out. Darthkayak and Sirlanz gave me specific feedback, and I responded, even though I did invite them to edit the article themselves. I never claimed ownership; I always invited others to edit when they had complaints. What ended up happening was that they just waited for me to edit for them. And when people make general claims without specifying where in the article things should be fixed, how does one even begin to help?

I have asked many times to point out where exactly in the article I can help you fix. Isn't that what your goal is? To improve the wikipedia?

Lastly I repeat again: many of those diffs were from nearly two months ago, when I was just getting started with wikipedia. And those only form a small fraction of my contributions to wikipedia. Try not to be so selective about your sources. I only recently made my 1000th edit, and I've been thanked many times already for my positive contributions. I really do want to help improve these articles, since I believe deep down that is what you really want, but we should discuss civilly how exactly to improve these articles. Alexkyoung (talk) 00:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I ran into this editor at the Australia page where he was trying to edit war in his desired content concerning fringe theories of early Chinese arrival - (see Talk:Australia#Speculative Chinese Arrival). On that occasion too his technique was to edit war against clear consensus as much as possible, perversely claiming BRD because "nobody had replied" instantly to his walls of text in the "discussion" he was solely prolonging. On that occasion he did not "back down" until it was made clear that sanctions would otherwise be the likely outcome. The behaviour described above is therefore familiar, and I tend to agree with FPAS that a block might be necessary to prevent this tendentious editing pattern from continuing. This style of disruption exhausts other editors and is extremely damaging to the collaborative process. -- Begoon 01:31, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is your point of view. I was just adding well-sourced info from reliable resources, and the fact that you bring this up clearly shows that you never listened or even understood my main argument: I never said the Chinese arrived to Australia; I only said that it is a hypothesis, and it is well-covered in the news (anybody who reads the talk page can find sources).

What you are accusing me of is equivalent to saying that the Altaic languages page should not exist since it is a controversial hypothesis. It is not about whether it is right or wrong or 'fringe'; it is still a hypothesis that scholars have written about. And to bury that in wikipedia reeks of censorship. Begoon and Nickm57 (both from the Australia debate, who have been stalking me simply because they disagree with whatever doesn't conform to their Eurocentric world view) in this case are no different from the PRC when it comes to censorship of well-cited content.

I have no doubt you guys would censure the pants off the PRC for the Xinjiang conflict or the Tiananmen square massacre. It is just so much easier to criticize others. Unfortunately that is not so balanced, to criticize the governments of other countries without stomaching well-documented criticism of our own. This is what DavidMCEddy has been arguing for on foreign interventions by the US, why Jamez42 undid Citobun's reverts and restored my version, why OhConfucius thanked me for my edits on Gui Minhai, etc. We all want a neutral point of view, not just pov's that are more sympathetic to our own country but less sympathetic to others. Otherwise, you guys are defeating your own purpose, the whole purpose of wikipedia to be a neutral encyclopedia.

On Australia, I was shocked that so many would disagree with well-sourced info just because it didn't fit in with their chauvinistic point of view. And let's be honest: others started edit-warring me by reverting my contributions. Still I stated my case and left the scene, realizing that the Australia page had such a toxic environment. This was from more than a week ago, and I have moved on. Alexkyoung (talk) 04:54, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No sign of reflection or change in this editor at all. See his comments at my talk page and on Racial discrimination.Nickm57 (talk) 04:06, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps best to give this editor a little vacation to reflect on things.--Moxy 🍁 04:26, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Add diff diff for History of Xinjiang. WP:DONTGETIT. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, this can't be serious! diff. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:30, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Touche, it goes both ways. Try to understand my points as well.Alexkyoung (talk) 06:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Quit the anti-semitism crap and other accusations and join the talk in a productive manner Talk:Racial discrimination#A silly introduction. As of now your rants are not conducive to what's going on.--Moxy 🍁 06:16, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Watch the language, and read through my response.Alexkyoung (talk) 06:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to draw people's attention to what's going on here: others deliberately harassing and smear-campaigning me and clearly not listening to my replies. These are lies. Nickm57 is just harassing and edit-warring me this time. I call administrators to investigate his abusive behavior and put an end to it. To quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nickm57&oldid=903966217#stop_edit_warring

It is clear that Nickm57 is stalking me around, and I do not appreciate his harassment. It is shocking that he didn't know 100 years ago Jews were considered non-white in the USA. He should find something more productive to do than to follow my user contribution page and revert everything he disagrees with. If anything Nick needs a vacation himself. It is unhealthy to stalk a single user for so long. Wikipedia has no space for such bullying and abuse. Alexkyoung (talk) 04:54, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Alexkyoung: Since you are actively canvassing numerous administrators to address alleged "harassment" by Nickm57 ([414] [415] [416] [417] [418] [419]), can you please provide some detailed citations (in the form of diffs) that show the stalking/harassment/bullying/abuse that you referred to, above? You have stated that Nick is just a really bad person, however, I don't see any evidence either in this ANI discussion or in the message you're canvassing admins with to support Nick has a track record of stalking and disruptively reverting my contributions to wikipedia. or Nickm57 is stalking me around. More, the concerns that Joshua Jonathan quoted above are troubling. ST47 (talk) 05:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure referring to those that are concerned with your additions as anti-Seimitic holocaust deniers helps your position ...considering what was said on the talkpage.....time for a long weekend in my view. --Moxy 🍁 05:47, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Include the more recent update

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJayjg&type=revision&diff=903972649&oldid=903816936 Alexkyoung (talk) 06:11, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @ST47: Gladly. In fact, examining the history of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Australia&action=history

It appears that Moxy, Nickm57, and Begoon have come back to talk smack about me. They are all from the Australia article and simply didn't like the stuff I was adding, about Menzies theory. So at least Moxy and Nickm57 decided to look through my user contributions and revert my edits to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Racial_discrimination&action=history

One hundred years ago, Jews were not considered white in the US census. The non-Jewish Christian majority of the US and Europe discriminated against them. The Holocaust is just one example. Nowadays, Jews are considered white but it took years for that to happen. This is just the fact, and I don't see what points Moxy, Nickm57 are trying to promote by denying this fact.

And lastly, the fact that all three have reported on this ANI notice and Moxy, Nickm57 continue to post here shows that they are stalking me around. Just reading their posts it is obvious what their intent is. Yes I have reached out to Joshua Johnson as well. I am open to civil discourse, but I request that Moxy, Nickm57 to stop their disruptive harassment. (talk) 06:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

compromise

@ST47: @Joshua Jonathan: I admit I am new. When coming to wikipedia, I became accustomed to the idea of editing existing content on the article pages, so for some reason it didn't cross my mind that editing other people's responses was inappropriate: to me it was just the same as editing article content. Reading Joshua's and other people's comments, I say thanks for letting me know. In the future I will not modify people's messages on the talk page, and I have already stopped doing that. In my defense I was referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines but it seems that if the person's request is 'legitimate'; it should be kept there. This is all fair to bring up.

So I outline a compromise: 1. I will not edit or modify people's responses on talk pages. 2. Retain my existing version on the History of Xinjiang. This is not just my version, but many other editors. 3. If you would like to improve Xinjiang, do not revert but pinpoint specific places (exact lines) where you would like the article to be improved, and I will be happy to help you. 4. We should all avoid following each others' user contribution pages and edit warring each other from now on. We need to keep distance. This is best to avoid retaliation.

Lastly, I have already let Nickm57, Moxy keep their edits on the Racial discrimination and Australia articles. In compromise, I would politely request them to not post anything further on this talk page as I want to first hear back from the administrators. Thank you Alexkyoung (talk) 06:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Alexkyoung: You have come very close to being blocked for at least three different reasons. In addition to your long term WP:TENDENTIOUS editing, you are involved in several edit wars and have made personal attacks. While I appreciate your offer to disengage from the areas that seem to get you into trouble, we won't be negotiating to keep your preferred version of any article as any form of "ransom" in exchange for your good behavior. Let me make an alternative offer:
  1. You accept a voluntary WP:TOPICBAN from areas related to the present conflicts. I would phrase this as "areas related to ethnicity and race, broadly construed", but if other editors have better suggestions, I'm open to hearing them.
  2. You accept a voluntary WP:1RR probation in all topic areas, with the usual exceptions that reverting vandalism or WP:BLP violations are not subject to this restriction.
  3. These restrictions are indefinite, you may request at WP:AN for them to be lifted after no less than 6 months, at which point the community will decide based on your conduct.
During these restrictions, you would be free (and encouraged) to use talk pages and requested edits to discuss these topics. However, this would hopefully prevent the disputes that are likely to get you blocked. Note that there's nothing in here about modifying other people's posts on talk pages, or related to WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL. That's because those are prohibited regardless, and you would be blocked for disruptive edits or personal attacks regardless of whether there's a ban on you. In any event, please indicate whether you'd be willing to accept these restrictions, so we can hopefully put this matter to rest. ST47 (talk) 06:49, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that was before I read the edit summary at [420]. I'm blocking Alexkyoung for violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, he's welcome to re-engage when the block expires, or if people want to propose a community-enforced topic ban/actual ban, that's fine too. ST47 (talk) 06:59, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the leadership on this. Appreciated. Nickm57 (talk) 07:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And just for the record, I had been about to make some edits on South Korea–United States relations including some made by Alexkyoung under a new heading of "Incidents of US abuse" that are quite inappropriate. However, in the circumstances I'll leave it alone for a week or so.Nickm57 (talk) 07:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nickm57 and talk. Following your statements above, I have reverted the user's edits here and here. I am still learning about the rules of Wikipedia as I did not join that long ago so please let me know if this kind of edit is actually allowed. But from what I have read, I think a revert like this is okay given how disruptive this editor has been. Likuu (talk) 17:15, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Likuu is a blocked user for being the sockpuppet of Syopsis.General Lincoln (talk) 08:12, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that’s right. And I said I would return to this matter and will do so on my return from China next week.Nickm57 (talk) 03:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So apparently while waiting for the second unblock request to be decided, Alexkyoung chose to get on their soapbox and declare the entire ANI case was just a pretext to get them blocked, and accuse Nickm57 & Moxy of censorship. I don't think this user is here to contribute constructively. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:13, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I note that User:ST47 blocked Alexkyoung for only 31 hours, citing the specific personal attacks made in recent edits as a reason. From my reading of the situation, including the edit-warring, the tendentious edits, and the persistent battleground mentality, I was considering something substantially longer, possibly up to an indef. Alexkyoung's latest reactions, including his "free speech" rant on his talkpage [421], as well as the earlier attempt at passing off as a "compromise" a proposal that would keep him in full control of his preferred version of the contested article [422], have not improved my impression. ST47, would you mind me increasing the block length, or do we have a realistic hope this user will improve their behaviour when they come back from this short block? Fut.Perf. 17:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, given this user's lack of any previous blocks, my hope was that a short block in combination with a very short leash for future edit warring or civility issues would allow them to contribute productively. It does seem like they have made some substantial contributions to other articles, and it's just this one area where their POV-pushing gets them into trouble. The rant on their talk page does not fill me with confidence, but can we see what happens after the block expires? ST47 (talk) 17:55, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I'm not particularly optimistic though. (And the cynic in me still grumbles he doesn't believe in this concept of "educating" POV-pushers to become good wikipedians anyway, but maybe that's for some other discussion...) Fut.Perf. 18:46, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it is for another discussion, but I confess that this particular editor's history, both before and during the short block, doesn't lead me to suppose that your inner cynic will be proved wrong on this particular occasion. I hope we are wrong. -- Begoon 00:02, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Alexkyoung reached out to me on my Talk: page, which I appreciated, but unfortunately the way he described his issues did not match at all what I was seeing. I also suspect that his edits to Racial discrimination and the Holocaust were intended solely to bring me into his conflicts as a sympathetic administrator. His description (or implication) regarding the editors he was in conflict with on those articles being "antisemitic" and "holocaust deniers" was unconvincing at best, misleading and defamatory at worst. I am also seeing serious issues with WP:NPOV; almost every edit made until he was brought to AN/I appears to have been for the purpose of boosting China or its government and/or denigrating the United States. Even edits like this, which are not pro-China per se, are clearly inflammatory (and with an edit summary that appears to hide the true purpose of the edit). I am surprised a longer or even indefinite block was not applied. Jayjg(talk) 00:22, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I note General Lincoln has suddenly turned up to continue this user’s editing practice. (And how amazing the two never edit at the same time) But I’m pleased to see the appropriate wheels are in motion elsewhere Nickm57 (talk) 08:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So from what I understand, you're suspicious simply because I support Alexkyoung? Ridiculous.General Lincoln (talk) 08:20, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for topic-ban

I notice the article Han–Uyghur intermarriage, written entirely by User:Alexkyoung. Except the article isn't actually about Han-Uyghur intermarriage. It's just an attack page written after most of this thread. The article strikes me as rather strong evidence that User:Alexkyoung is not here to contribute productively, at least not in that particular area. I'd suggest, at a minimum, a WP:TOPICBAN from Xinjiang and Uyghur-related articles. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:05, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - his edits are far from neutral; see Talk:History of Xinjiang#Tarim mummies and Talk:History of Xinjiang#Indo-Europeans, where attempts were made to WP:CENSOR the Indo-European origins of the Tarim Mummies, and the term "indo-European" misleadingly was framed as "European." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as a minimum, but I tend to think that something "wider" might be more appropriate, such as the "areas related to ethnicity and race, broadly construed", suggested earlier. I'm also not opposed to My preferred solution at this point, though, would be a longer/indefinite block/ban as suggested by FPAS, because the problems do seem likely to continue, and, in fact, are continuing. -- Begoon 05:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support topic ban from all China-related topics at a minimum (including, but not limited to, Xinjiang/Uyghurs). Prefer full indef-block, as the disruptive editing and the battleground mentality has spread out over additional topics. Fut.Perf. 06:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support without prejudice also to imposing wider or different sanctions. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support topic ban from all China-related topics as second choice. I prefer an indefinite block because his edits suggest that he is not here to build an encyclopedia. JimRenge (talk) 12:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support TBAN Full disclosure, I came to this through the Han–Uyghur intermarriage AFD and didn't notice this thread until just now. Even if that ... pretty gross POVFORK is deleted, I've see no evidence that this user is capable of constructive editing in this highly controversial topic area. I've gone on record as opposing TBANs for SPAs in the past since it seems like unnecessary bureaucracy, but I also don't want the editors who have !voted keep in the AFD to start harassing me for attempting to pursue "the Wikipedia equivalent of the death penalty" for this particular editor at this particular time: if others think an indef is what is called for, I will not oppose it.Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:20, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support at a minimum. Not here to build an encyclopedia, as Jim says. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:59, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for the same reasons, and with the same disclosure, as User:Hijiri88. FOARP (talk) 08:28, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support topic ban on China-related subjects. Disruptive and clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Citobun (talk) 07:49, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline: I welcome Alexkyoung's edits. They are quite informative and well-written. I know deep down Hijiri 88 will not support any type of ban on his edits. Also Adoring nanny should note that Han–Uyghur intermarriage was written originally probably by User:Milktaco and that Alexkyoung was copying it over to a new article in History of Xinjiang simply because the article was too big. Lastly, you should be honored to have a Harvard graduate helping you improve your articles.General Lincoln (talk) 08:17, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline: I don't trust any of those against Alex to be any better at writing neutrally about China, Russia, or the US for that matter. Bunch of hypocrites. Alexkyoung is one of the few editors on the web who at least makes sense and writes well enough that her contributions to wikipedia on the whole are beneficial. She even writes about math and is getting a Phd from Stanford. By the way, it does not seem that any of those who favored 'support' are admins. I'm on the side of ST47 that because Alex is new, she should continue to edit freely. It appears she hasn't made one in days. She probably has more to contribute to the world working on her Stanford Phd than dealing with all of this. This is one long case; just close it, and let her go! До свидания.Sven Karmanova (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the above were two random racist trolls attacking those who support this proposal -- but it turns out they're both socks of Alex. Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another suspicious account

Sven Karmanova is a new account, restores Alexkyoung's edits at History of Xinjiang. Sven Karmanova also restored diff a comment made by new user Steph Goodwin diff. And Doug Weller: have a look at Talk:History of Xinjiang#Indo-Europeans. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Alexkyoung for the follow-up. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:24, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the checkuser has been completed, and no relation has been found between any of these users. Joshua you cannot just assume everybody who supports each other is like that. Otherwise what does that make you and JimRenge?General Lincoln (talk) 08:22, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
General Lincoln, please do not misrepresent the findings [423] of the checkuser in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Alexkyoung. JimRenge (talk) 08:45, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jim are you a sockpuppet of Joshua? You two seem to have a lot of suspicious activities working on the same pages together and agreeing with each other all the time.Sven Karmanova (talk) 08:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am not a sock of Joshua Jonathan. JimRenge (talk) 09:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose topic ban from U.S. foreign relations

This edit, specifically the first paragraph, is one of the most disgustingly POV edits I have ever seen written on Wikipedia. I would like to propose an indefinite topic ban for Alexkyoung from all articles related to U.S. Foreign relations until such time as he can demonstrate proper understanding of wikipedia's NPOV policy.

And another "new user" - Jarvis Maximus has now appeared, editing in the same way and on similar topics[424]! Wake me up when its all over! Nickm57 (talk) 06:09, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline: I was brought to this page by Nick's recent disruptive pov edits. Anyways, I have to say that I support Alexkyoung's edits and that they are quite welcomed to wikipedia. He or she is a talented writer that has much to offer to this community and has created a number of articles on notable topics. To silence this one voice out of what appears to be sinophobia or anti-semitism (I don't know if he/she is Chinese or Jewish or both or whatever; it doesn't matter) is to defeat the purpose of wikipedia in the first place, to be an inclusive community.General Lincoln (talk) 08:11, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline: How do you think I feel when you Americans write anti-Russian things like that and call me communist pigs? That's one of the greatest first paragraphs I've ever read on this wikipedia, and I'm thankful that not everybody here is a US sycophant. And it's from an American herself! Am I sensing another Ed Snowden? By the way he's still living here in Moscow. I don't trust any of those against Alex to be any better at writing neutrally about China, Russia, or the US for that matter. Bunch of hypocrites. Alexkyoung is one of the few editors on the web who at least makes sense and writes well enough that her contributions to wikipedia on the whole are beneficial. She even writes about math and is getting a Phd from Stanford. By the way, it does not seem that any of those who favored 'support' are admins. I'm on the side of ST47 that because Alex is new, she should continue to edit freely. It appears she hasn't made one in days. She probably has more to contribute to the world working on her Stanford Phd than dealing with all of this. This is one long case; just close it, and let her go! До свидания.Sven Karmanova (talk) 08:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to read more pro-US stuff, just go to WSJ or Fox news or whatever. You guys like to pride yourself in how free and unbiased your internet and media are, but look what you are doing trying to censor your fellow citizen. Even I wouldn't think the US would be this divided. It makes your democracy so easy to exploit, as with Trump's recent elections. Accuse Putin all you want. Alex is here to stay, and I fully reject any kind of ban against her.Sven Karmanova (talk) 08:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm not touching this proposal with a ten-foot pole, but it should be noted that the above two have been blocked as socks of Alex. Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:17, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Interaction ban

Editor NewsAndEventsGuy has a history of following my edits, makes frequent claims about my edits and violations, has a dedicated section on his talk page where he collects selectively from our communications. I've noticed that I edit pages where he is also known to be more active less so, e.g. at global warming/sea level rise where I in the past was among the most active editors. But even when I edit pages he never touched before, he follows me around. Yesterday, editor Sean Heron posted on my talk page in regards to my edits at climate emergency in a constructive consensus finding way. But immediately NewsAndEventsGuy had to show up (even though I asked him to take such matters to article talk), reverts my edits, and made a point about a POVFORK violation. Sean Heron noted subsequently, Then someone else (in this case you NewsAndEventsGuy :P ) blankets the page. That's not exactly courteous - not to Prokaryotes nor to me :/ .

Generally the user reverts me then drags me into long talk page discussions where he usually argues I violated NPOV, OR, POVFORK or a combination of those. The first interaction I had with NewsAndEventsGuy was around 2014, at the article polar amplification, the user since made 20 edits, added 336 bytes of text, deleted 5,786 bytes of text in article space, on the talk page he made 829 edits, added 235,847 bytes of text. He usually is not acknowledging when he makes a failure, instead doubles down. I am happy to provide more examples where the user interferes with my edits in a not so constructive manner, but basically I ask the community here to enact an interaction ban between him and me, thanks. prokaryotes (talk) 10:25, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you do understand that this potential interaction ban would be effecting you just as much as NewsAndEventsGuy. I say this as I see that you have reverted one of his edits as late as just a few hours ago.BabbaQ (talk) 11:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted his revert of my edit, which wouldn't have happened if we have this ban. I am aware that I would no longer interact with him (including his edits, unless they are in gross violations). prokaryotes (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To sum up, you've offered as evidence of recent problematic behavior one diff in which NAEG made an obviously correct decision to restore a redirect, that has been well supported by numerous editors on the article talk page. --JBL (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply by NAEG To sum up, I'm accused of WP:Hounding in which The important component... is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or disruption to the project generally, for no constructive reason. Say again, "no constructive reason". Prokaryotes editing merits following because they often inject two kinds of problems into our articles. The first is an over-reliance on WP:Primary sources which he is likely to mis-interpret. He is especially likely to do this with scientific papers on climate change and global warming. This problem was discussed in August 2018 at WP:AN in this thread where Boris (recently deceased, alas!) concurred with my observations and mentioned WP:CIR. The second problem is Prokaryotes climate alarmist POV, e.g., in his own words Unfortunately humanity is to dumb to understand the implications. [[425]]. That has been P's approach to climate articles for a long time. For example, in May 2012 at Fermi paradox#It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself, P made an edit with edit summary Adding climate change to the possible list of self destruction. P used a different name, as explained [here]). Similar RIGHTGREATWRONGS editing on P's part led to vaccination Tban in 2013 and a GMO Tban in 2015. Since I'm not seeking a boomerang, I'm going to stop now. I just wanted to say NPOV and proper use of PRIMARY sources are constructive reasons to follow someone around, when they have a troubled track record in those areas. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's all you could find, my block log, a spot on edit summary, a talk page comment, who reads in full, The agreement is 1.5-2C while the Arctic warms at least twice as much (which should be somewhere in the article). Unfortunately humanity is to dumb to understand the implications. Guys, can we please have this interaction ban, or do I have to show you how lots of editors have similar problems with this editor, and that he often is plain wrong in his argument? I am mis-representing the sciences my edits have an alarmism bias, I ask you to retract these claims without merit. NewsAndEventsGuy, is the only editor who makes these claims about my edits, he usually did not read the science studies I add to article space. I have literally added thousands of science papers to the Wikipedia, if there was room for improvements I discuss on talk, that's about it. prokaryotes (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P's reply is (yet another) CIR like tantrum of which the ANI and related pages have plenty to choose from. No P it is not all I can find, but as I stated my only purpose was to show there is a constructive reason to follow your edits, and I provided diffs for that purpose. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:14, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear that the real CIR issue is on your side, otherwise you would provide diff's which show mis-representing and alarmism POV (whatever this is). prokaryotes (talk) 18:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who is (more) at fault, or if the edits of one (both) of you are indeed inappropriate per policy, but given your current feelings, an interaction ban between the two seems absolutely warranted as a minimal step even if my first two questions are answered in the negative. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 18:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please hold NewsAndEventsGuy accountable for his baseless accusations that I mis-represent the sciences, is reluctant to provide evidence (other than an accurate edit summary from 2012)? And if this is not moving you, remember he has a creepy special section on his talk page about me, above wrote he follows me around - YES, I feel harassed by this user that's why I came here for help. If yo u have specific questions, want more difs, please ask me and I will provide, thank you! prokaryotes (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There has been a previous discussion on the matter (to which NAEG has linked), in which others editors do side with him so I do not think his accusations are baseless. "Reluctant to provide evidence" also seems inaccurate given the post he made in reply to you; and the fact that other editors right here seem to disagree with your assessment of his editing. I also fail to see how a discussion on his talk page where he invited you to participate is "creepy". You might be taking this a bit too personally - maybe you should take some distance and let cooler heads prevail? 107.190.33.254 (talk) 18:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Prokaryotes:@NewsAndEventsGuy: Alright you have both said your piece, now stop arguing with each other. NAEG: Would you be amenable to a 2 way voluntary (yet quite enforceable) IBAN? Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Having interacted with both users quite a lot, I think that a IBAN might be quite fruitful. I do worry a bit about the edits made by P still though, which make me suspect a passion for the topic which makes it more difficult for P to write up facts in a balanced way. An example is [426], where P added a line about global warming to a very generic physics article in the lede, for which I had to extensively explain how this contained errors and was unbalanced. Further examples are [427], where P added a full paragraph about a new alarmist study to global warming, a top-level article where this led to quite some unbalance. One study for which P seems to have interpreted as having a more extended application that the studies implied themselves: [428]. Is there a possibility that in addition to an IBAN, P would volunteer in some mentoring program? Femke Nijsse (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Complaining about procedural errors in a discussion from last year now seems misplaced and only hints at the animosity (reciprocal or not) between you two. Note that you are also a party at the discussion you linked where NAEG supposedly canvassed... 107.190.33.254 (talk) 19:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to get into the weeds, but just to answer his accuastions briefly.... (A) The place I supposedly canvassed is the venue of the original content dispute, and I didn't pick and choose editors, I simply alerted all the witnesses who might have insight to offer. (B) His bit about ANI protocol is another example of CIR. It was a question about procedures, not a complaint, and I didn't name him since I wasn't seeking action. But P interjected and tried to convert my education-seeking post into a complaint.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A great example of CIR challenged editor not being careful what they ask for. OK, I am voluntarily NOT editing anywhere but user space until I post a full account and ask for P to be topic banned from science articles and anything to do with climate change. But I am real life busy and this is one of those that will take days, probably, to properly assemble. So bye for now. I'll be back when I am ready to give the DIFFS I didn't want to assemble but P just keeps demanding. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC) See updated comment below NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While other editors in the mentioned discussions noted my good faith edits, I can't see this in what you write, and you just keep ignoring the call to provide actual article space diffs. And please stop threatening me with a topic ban, not exactly what this community has written up under WP:AGF. prokaryotes (talk) 20:03, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, I don't have the time and passion to continue this venue here, to make it short and help you guys I request an indef block, thanks, good bye and thanks for all the fish. prokaryotes (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Requested Closing Since P wants to be indeffed instead of facing my promised Tban complaint, I can agree with that outcome and this should be closed accordingly. However, I would like the closing to specify unblock criteria for the future. This isn't P's first retirement after controversy. In 12 months, when this has all blown over, he will probably again ask for unblock. A great irony in this thread is that the opening post he says of me, above, the user reverts me then drags me into long talk page discussions where he usually argues I violated NPOV, OR, POVFORK or a combination of those. He wants action against me but does not provide diffs. In contrast I did not want action against him so only provided diffs to defend myself. This is a classic boomerang deal. But he wants to dodge a CIR based TBan review, so he's asking for indef to kill that before it happens. OK I can let it go. However, as a WP:BOOMERANG request, please grant his voluntary indef and condition any return on his documenting where I have inappropriately "reverted and dragged" him into long talk page discussions where he usually argues I violated NPOV, OR, POVFORK or a combination of those. That's what he's mad about and that's why he wanted me sanctioned. So if he wants to be unblocked down the road, let's make sure he takes the time to document all that before unblock is granted. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Bye NAEG, bye Wikipedia community, I mostly loved the way how WP encourages you to provide reliable peer-reviewed science, enjoyed editing during my time here, but my work is done here I realize. No bad feelings. Over and out XD prokaryotes (talk) 20:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, without any bad faith, and quoting myself from above: "Saying "I am retired" to get away from facing a sticky wicket is surely WP:GAMING, and has been looked down upon in previous ArbCom cases)". I am also unsure whether this would be an acceptable case of WP:SELFBLOCK. 107.190.33.254 (talk) 21:02, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since the IP mentions GAMING possibilities here, it made me realize I may have inadvertently suggested prior GAMING also. I apologize for poor writing. P's prior indef request was in good faith, because at that time the controversy was over. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest that if an admin chooses to enforce prokaryotes self-requested indef, any later unblock be conditional on a 6-month topic ban from climate change articles, broadly construed. This gives the community a buffer to evaluate their editing capability before returning to a topic of contention. If you don't want that prokaryotes, just withdraw your request and avoid the topic area from now on. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:19, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I'm unfamiliar with procedure here, and only posting since I too was made aware of the discussion by NewsAndEventsGuy. I just want to point out that I can see some of where both of the two "Loggerheaded" Users are coming at each other from. I've not been involved in (practically) any editing yet, but there are points both Users make that I agree with. I would disagree with Topic Banning Prokaryotes - many (if not most) of the contributions made by the user are good faith edits as far as I can tell. I can't say I support or oppose an interaction ban - I can see that the two were not interacting in a constructive fashion, but my hope was that some structured discussion might have helped to resolve the issues (part of my motivation in suggesting the Wikiproject Climate Change ). Seems that seems to be out of the question for the moment though, unfortunately :/ . Regards Sean Heron (talk) 11:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BTw, Above, P complains about a "creepy" thread on my talk page. This is GREAT example of the WP:Competence is required problem with Prokaryotes. That section is nothing more than threads he started on my talk page, all collected for convenience under a neutral section heading. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 04:20, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't close this. I am prepping a shortened version of the promised Boomerang, to ask the community to ratify P's own request for indef. I may not have it ready until next week and I won't edit article space in the meantime. Meanwhile please note that P did a similar maneuver to avoid a TBan sanction in 2016. Please don't close thisNewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NewsAndEventsGuy: I'm here anyways, so I'll ask: would you comfortable with a voluntary no-fault 2-way IBAN with this user? That can probably be either in addition to, or in lieu of, the proposed topic ban. Please ping response(Non-administrator comment)MJL Talk 05:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mechanical problems have delayed my departure.... short answer "no", see "alternative closing idea" below. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:50, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative closing idea

(A) Fact correction... It's not true that I follow P, in general

I monitor climate change articles in general. P is prolific and sometimes errs, but he can't handle disagreement over his errors. Evidence that this is not a personal dispute is that despite our 2014 content disputes I did not pile on during his two failed Vaccination Tban appeals (ending in his first RageQuit. Then in 2015 when he adopts GMO as a secondary passion I did not interfere with his work there, nor did I pile on during the dramatic AN/ANI/AE cases that led to his TBan and second retirement (full thread since diffs were revedeleted), Then when he tilted at the Cryptocurrency windmill in 2017/2018 I did not follow him there even as matters crescendoed with his third Rage quit/retirement (see also). So it's not exactly true to say I have it out for P, in general. I started on climate in 2011, P in 2012. I work for great climate articles. P has a prolific contrib history in this area, and like any editor imperfect edits. He just can't handle having them called out and, given time, I will show this.

(B) This case is evidence that I don't have it "in" for P because I only wanted to defend myself and did not pull the Boomerang trigger.....

Then P repeatedly demanded Diffs
So I promised to supply them and seek a Tban
Gaming to avoid that scrutiny, P does his fourth Rage Quit/Wikibreak.
The guidelines for LEAVING suggest a way foward....

(C) POSSIBLE CLOSING

Per WP:LEAVE Vanishing is not a way to avoid criticism, sanctions, or other negative attention, unless you really mean to leave permanently. As such, it might not be extended to users who have been disruptive, who leave when they lose the trust of the community, or when they are blocked or banned.. I am OK with closing this and granting P's indef request, conditioned on any future UNBLOCK provide a list of DIFFS where P thinks I followed him "for no costructive purpose", plus an explanation of the issue that I raised and the outcome. So an admin might impose the following condition on his right to LEAVE (but not to escape criticism)
By your own request you have been indefinitely blocked from editing. Since this is a retirement in lieu of facing a Topic ban boomerang request in AN case "Interaction ban", future unblock requests will only be granted after resolution of that dispute. Your complaint about the other editor, NewsAndEventsGuy, is based on our policy about [{WP:HOUNDING]] which presently says in relevant part The important component of hounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or disruption to the project generally, for no constructive reason. Even if the individual edits themselves are not disruptive per se, "following another user around", if done to cause distress, or if accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions. To renew your case filing, (1) Indicate your intent at ANI, and (2) provide DIFFS you believe show HOUNDING by NewsAndEventsGuy as described in the quoted text, (3) Provide a short summary of any article changes that resulted, (4) provide DIFFS that show NewsAndEventsGuy intended to cause distress or engaged in tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior,

If I'm blowing smoke about CIR, he should have no problem fulfilling those conditions, and my own behavior will be the one under scrutiny. I'm OK with that.

Now I really do need to continue truck repairs... overdue at inlaws! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:50, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Housekeeping FootNote upon archiving

FYI, here is a status Note left at the other user's talk page.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:44, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TENDENTIOUS editing by User:Aykhan Zayedzadeh

Inserting pro-Azerbaijani Turkish material into articles:

  • Added "Azerbaijan" without source to the Bidet shower article. No edit summary/explanation either.[429]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to the Supra (feast) article without source. No edit edit summary/explanation either.[430]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to an article about a Georgian administrative province even though the article makes zero mention of any relationship with the Azerbaijani ethnos or Azerbaijani Turkish language.[431]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to the Wudu article without source. No edit summary/explanation either.[432]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to the Akhalkalaki article even though the article makes no mention of the city's relationship with Azerbaijani Turks/Azerbaijani Turkish langauge.[433]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to an article about an Armenian monastery. No edit summary/explanation either.[434]
  • Added the Latin Azerbaijani script in an article to the Blue Mosque, Tabriz article, even though the Azerbaijani Latin script is not used on an official level in Iran.[435]
  • Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to Iwan, even though the article demonstrates no relationship in relation to the Azerbaijani Turkshi people/Azerbaijani Turkish language.[436]

Using the race/ethnicity card and general violations of WP:BATTLE and WP:PERSONAL:

  • "There are lot of Persian users interrupting the factuality (...)"[437]
  • "Iranian nationalist Shia (which is pagan at this point) who shouts "Ya Hossein", instead of "Allahu Akbar"[438]
  • "Dear LouisAragon, I understand being bit anti-Azerbaijan (...)"[439]

Ignoring personal warnings:

Ignoring WP:AA2 warning:

Copy-vio violation:

Topic ban proposal

Looking at the compelling evidence, its safe to say that this user's editorial pattern has been disruptive on numerous levels for an extended period of time. Said user has been warned on numerous occassions (incl. by admins)[444], but to no avail unfortunately. I therefore propose a 6-month topic ban on all topics related to the Caucasus region, the Middle East and the Iranian/Turkic world. -

  • Support As nom. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose article of Bidet shower had already country names mentioned without citations, and articles of Supra and Wudu had already transliterations in other related languages without any citations. Kakheti was strongly related to Azerbaijan and has a Azerbaijani population (at least since early modern ages). 9.8% of Kakheti is inhabited by Azerbaijanis[445] "From the early 16th century till the early 19th century, Kakheti and its neighboring Kartli came under intermittent Iranian [a.k.a Turkic dynasties] rule." The region was exposed to Persian rule, and ultimately, Azeri-speaking Azerbaijani population.[446] The reason behind that name is same as here. The name is even mentioned here. No one is making irredentist claims here. "Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to an article about an Armenian monastery", actually no, it was an Armenian monastery located in AZERBAIJAN, in a town with majority Azerbaijani population. "* Added the Latin Azerbaijani script in an article to the Blue Mosque, Tabriz article". No, I added transliteration of the Perso-Arabic script. There is a big difference. "Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to the Akhalkalaki article even though the article makes no mention of the city's relationship with Azerbaijani Turks/Azerbaijani Turkish language." The town historically had close cultural relations with Azerbaijan.[447][448] If an article in enwiki doesn't mention something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It is only the fault of enwiki to exclude that information, as other wikis have added it. "Added the Azerbaijani Turkish transliteration to Iwan, even though the article demonstrates no relationship in relation to the Azerbaijani Turkshi people/Azerbaijani Turkish language." No, it has. It was an important part of Azerbaijani-Persian architecture of the early modern era and is still used to describe balconies to this day[449]. "Warned on two occassions for violating WP:PERSONAL and WP:BATTLEGROUND. Never replied." What was I supposed to reply? Me not replying means that I do not object those warnings. I hope I was able to clearly explain everything. --► Sincerely: A¥×aᚢZaÿïþzaþ€ 18:36, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The Turkish and Azerbaijani transliterations of Iwan removed right after I added the Azerjani transliteration of it. I did not oppose it, believing that it was a rightful removal. --► Sincerely: A¥×aᚢZaÿïþzaþ€ 18:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "article of Bidet shower had already country names mentioned without citations, and articles of Supra and Wudu had already transliterations in other related languages without any citations."
So because these articles lack citations, you are given a free pass to add more unsourced content?
  • "No, I added transliteration of the Perso-Arabic script. There is a big difference"
You added the transliteration written in the Latin Azerbaijani script, which has letters such as "ə"[450] and is only officially used in the Azerbaijan Republic, not in Iran.
- LouisAragon (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (even if, given the above evidences, i would prefer a topic ban for a longer period of time). This editor seems to be here on a single mission, trying to "Tukify" the greater number of articles he can, edit warring and being dismissive and attacking other editors. Not a net positive for the project, in my humble opinion.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I know this editor from my time editing azwiki. I think this topic ban proposal misses the mark. Aykhan Zayedzadeh was generally more cordial in my interactions with him on Meta and Azwiki, but I can't approve of how they treated Wikaviani and others per those diffs (Aykhan, you need to apologize for that). However, the pro-Azerbaijani Turkish edits did not seem all that terrible besides Aykhan not using an edit summary. He makes a decent point that if our coverage is lacking on a topic, then it shouldn't exclusively be on him to fix that. So long as he doesn't edit war, it's fine in of itself to make those additions imo.
    I would ask we propose a civility restriction banning Aykhan from making anything that could be reasonably construed as WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. I'd also impose a topic ban to be a one-year ban on Iranian topics. I don't see why we would want to ban Azerbaijani editor from being able to edit any topics related to his home country/language/culture when there is no evidence he's been disruptive in that topic. Keeping him away from Iranian topics though, would be more likely to stop Aykhan Zayedzadeh from making unproductive edits because it'll stop him from getting too heated.
    Either way, I can confirm for him: Me not replying means that I do not object those warnings. That really is a thing on Azwiki. (Non-administrator comment)MJL Talk 20:48, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL:, yeah, I don't stand by what I said to Wikiviani few months ago. I broke my own rule in online debates and exhibited Keyboard warrior-like behavior. Apologies for acting few years (or age I guess) immature. The discussions about the history of Azerbaijan will always get heated, because what Azerbaijan-based sources and Perso-Armenian+Western sources are literally opposite to each other. And English Wikipedia, at least on topics related to Azerbaijan's history, do not have neutrality and doesn't respect the other side's (in this case, 10.000.000+ ppl and hundreds of scholars) perspective. --► Sincerely: A¥×aᚢZaÿïþzaþ€ 21:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Aykhan Zayedzadeh:[Thank you for the ping] I think it might be helpful to direct you to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS but also to Wikipedia:Systemic bias. It's important to keep your cool when getting into these debates. Tendentious editing is never okay here. I know I get where you're coming from and recognize things are more nuanced than Western media tries to portray it, but that is only because I decided to immerse myself with Azerbaijani culture and language through Azwiki. You can't expect everyone else to share your perspective, though (especially if you aren't in line with WP:Consensus).
Either way, it might be frustrating, but you have to abide by enwiki's policies on reliable sourcing and the like while editing here. The best way to do things is by practicing the BOLD and having a chat with the folks at the Teahouse whenever you need help. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯MJL Talk 02:53, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per @Aykhan Zayedzadeh:--Maqamedd (talk) 04:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: User:Maqamedd has made two edits in total.[451] - LouisAragon (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment & Question - Most of these edits don't actually break our rules - neither edit summaries nor citations are obligatory in many situations. Some of the edits are in articles with no relevance and thus indicate disruption. Obviously the personal attack is way out of line. I'm tempted towards the Iranian-only TBAN (note, this could be a bit blurry - broadly construed could sweep much of azerbaijani articles. Question: Can the community issue "reasonably construed" TBANs?Nosebagbear (talk) 11:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Can the community issue "reasonably construed" TBANs – NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO! If you think the Fram thing has Arbcom jammed up, wait until we start "reasonably construing" topic bans. The point of a Tban is: There are a million (actually 6 million) other article that need improving. Stay far, far away from this trouble spot. EEng 15:25, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per @Aykhan Zayedzadeh: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qızılbaş (talkcontribs) 12:58, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: User:Qızılbaş[452], who posted this (^) comment, is another account similar to "User:Maqamedd". Both accounts, though operated by two different users, have basically made zero edits on the English Wiki, yet are somehow aware of this ANI case. Interestingly, they both also left the exact same one-line comment in favor of Aykhan Zayedzadeh. Both accounts are very active on the Azerbaijani Turkish wiki.[453]-[454] - LouisAragon (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @LouisAragon: basically, it's been an ongoing issue trying to explain WP:CANVASSING and WP:NOTAVOTE to users from Azwiki. Both of those aren't a thing over there. I know this personally for a fact because I've seriously nominated multiple articles for deletion with no more than the words "Not encyclopedic." That being said, we're on enwiki now. @Aykhan Zayedzadeh: did you inform any users of this AN/I discussion, or are we to believe these two are just part of your absurdly dedicated Fan Club. –MJL Talk 00:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @MJL:, I make Facebook posts about any development regarding AzWiki and its active users on regular basis. It was one of them. Fun fact, I was one to inform the Wikicommunity on AzWiki about that whole meta thing :) --► Sincerely: A¥×aᚢZaÿïþzaþ€ 00:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aykhan Zayedzadeh: Yeah, so that's a potential violation of our policies here. Can you please update the Facebook post to either: (1) Remove the link, or (2) to tell people not to comment. I get the two users who commented here meant well, but honestly their "Oppose per Aykhan Zayedzadeh" comments really hurt you a lot more than they could've ever helped. –MJL Talk 01:02, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • " And English Wikipedia, at least on topics related to Azerbaijan's history, do not have neutrality and doesn't respect the other side's (in this case, 10.000.000+ ppl and hundreds of scholars) perspective" this kind of sentences shows that you don't understand how English Wiki works. This is not the Azerbaijani Wikipedia, where you can claim that Sarmatians were Turks and where the Armenian genocide article's is labelled as "the so called Armenian genocide". The hundreds of Azerbaijani "sources" you're referring to are the same ones supporting the above nonsenses i pointed out. When it comes to reliability, Azerbaijani sources cannot stand any comparison with high quality Persian, Armenian and western sources. Just take a look at how things are going on on Azerbaijani Wiki, where all admins are on the eve of losing their tools because of repeated misuse of the said tools. Curiously, now that you're reported here, and probably because you're afraid of being blocked, you apologized for your behavior, but at that time, even after having been warned by Kansas Bear you did not apologize ... Also, in your above statement, you just confessed that canvassing is one of your habits and this is, as MJL said, a clear violation of our policies, thus, the two users coming here and saying "oppose per Aykhan zayedzadeh" will clearly not help your case and their opinion will not be taken into account here.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Wikaviani: I really like pings btw especially because I don't check ANI except when it's relevant to me. I have a lot of respect for you as an editor, but I feel the need to bring a few things to your attention. (1) I said potential violation rather than clear violation. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying, "Darn it! I just got taken to ANI for being a loon. [link]" but there is something wrong with saying "Darn it! Someone reported me for changing the spelling of an article from American to British. Vote [link here] to support UK spelling!!" Both are bad form, but one is a policy violation. (2) The AZwiki-admin situation has been mostly resolved. (3) Aykhan Zayedzadeh was literally the first user to cast a vote in against the "So-called Armenian Genocide" title. (4) As for the statement on the Azerbaijani sources, that is more of a question for WP:RS/N than here. (5) I do agree with everything else you said though. Aykhan doesn't quite understand how English Wikipedia works, but I don't know if I'd personally blame them for it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯MJL Talk 20:11, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: I respect any editor i interract with here, on Wikipedia, including you, of course. The admin issue on the Az-Wiki may be almost solved, however, it's quite puzzling that this kind of stuff occurs on that language Wiki rather than elsewhere ... Your remark about Azerbaijani sources is correct, this is not the place to discuss about them, but my above remark was a reply to Aykhan Zayedzadeh's comment about the neutrality of English Wikipedia, nothing less, nothing more. I'm quite surprised that Aykhan Zayedzadeh dares to criticize the neutrality of En-Wiki about some topics while he's mainly editing the Az-Wiki, knowing what we know about that Wiki. Judging by the evidences provided above by LouisAragon this editor is here on a POV-pushing mission. Also, i striked the part where i said "according to MJL" since it was not exactly what you said. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani:What I'm saying is you're much appreciated! All communities have their biases and problems. I know I've certainly heard much said about enwiki's many critical problems both here and from throughout. Hywiki is currently using this map in their article about Azerbaijan. It isn't exactly subtle what message is being sent there.
Regardless, the truth is that we don't have good coverage of Azerbaijan related topics, but not for the reasons Aykhan stated. Let's try to help this user find the right rather rather than casting him out. They've been honest and such to us and have demonstrated a willing to learn. Wouldn't you agree that is a better option moving forward? –MJL Talk 21:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: The En-Wiki is probably the most reliable one among all Wikis, but let's not discuss this here.
"Regardless, the truth is that we don't have good coverage of Azerbaijan related topics, but not for the reasons Aykhan stated. Let's try to help this user find the right rather rather than casting him out. They've been honest and such to us and have demonstrated a willing to learn." Every POV pusher troll here needs to learn and educate him/herself, this is not a reason to let them alter the quality of this encyclopedia, right ? This is what it's all about here, Aykhan needs to learn and educate himself before editing this encyclopedia and a topic ban will give him the time for that. I don't say that as a punition, i say that because i want to help him to be a net positive to the project.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:32, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani: Woah there, that seems a little harsh and way unnecessary. What you say also goes against WP:BOLD to the nth degree. I'm of the same mind as Nosebagbear, the underlying edits in question weren't that bad. Btw, Nosebagbear, reasonably construed is unnecessary so long as broadly construed isn't used AFAIK. A 6-month topic ban that broad at this stage just seems so WP:BITE-y to me. (edit conflict)MJL Talk 22:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Being bold does not mean "go ahead, add any POV to any article you want without citing reliable sources and engage in edit warring". WP:BITE has nothing to do here, Aykhan has been editing the AzWiki for about 4 years, not really a newbie. You and me have already blowed this thread with our opinions, now, please wait for other users' input and admins to decide. Thanks.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Per the numerous PAs, comments on other editor's race/ethnicity, and ignoring the warnings from violations [10/2018]~(warned 10/2018),[2/2019]~(warned 2/2019). Clearly this editor is not here to help build a community encyclopedia.--Kansas Bear (talk) 00:10, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Stevo66666 and their IP 88.212.37.151

Continued disruptive edits using both Stevo66666 and IP address to falsify various stats at Metallica articles. Here (1 & 2) you can see how both made the same edit at more or less the same time, thereby connecting the accounts. Talk pages of both (1 & 2) also show an ongoing cycle of warning/final warnings.

Examples of Stevo66666 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. (Tip of the iceberg!)

IP 88.212.37.151 1, 2, 3. (Also an exhaustive list of false info)

I would be grateful if an admin could look into this. Thanks. Robvanvee 19:51, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Robvanvee: Wouldn't this be more appropriate for SPI? Compassionate727 (T·C) 20:32, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Robvanvee, most admins are not checkusers and are not able to confirm your suspicions. As Compassionate727 says, it's appropriate to take complaints like this to SPI. However, checkusers will not link a created account to an IP address so you might be disappointed. But that is the location to file reports on suspected sockpuppets. LizRead! Talk! 04:29, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback guys. I wasn't really reporting them for sock puppetry as much as I was reporting them purely for their continued introduction of deliberate factual errors to the articles. Thoughts on where I should report this instead of here? Robvanvee 04:45, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robvanvee: Regardless of whether these accounts are related or not, I've looked into these edits, all of them are factual errors all related to changing some of the metrics around awards and sales of Metallica albums, and this seems to be the only purpose for these two accounts. The accounts have failed to respond to repeated warnings, so to prevent further disruption, I've blocked the registered account indefinitely and the IP address for a significant length of time. I JethroBTdrop me a line 14:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My point exactly! Many thanks I JethroBT. Robvanvee 14:27, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:MaxBrowne2

Would a sysop please look at the recent behaviour of this editor in relation to History of chess? It is a protected article and there is an IP who wants to add a point about the possible origin of chess which is already documented in Ludus latrunculorum#Chess. A discussion between the IP and myself began at Talk:History of chess#Greco-Roman origin of chess and, as the information is reliably sourced, I agreed with the IP that we should mention Ludus latrunculorum in the history. The question then was how to do it so I revised the opening paragraph and asked the IP to review it.

Before the IP could respond, User:MaxBrowne2 reverted my paragraph and left a message at the talk page which included a sarcastic comment that breaches WP:CIVIL. Although he went on to claim that he was abiding by WP:BRD, the fact is that the discussion was already ongoing and BRD discourages reversion, so he should have joined the discussion without reverting. I replaced the edit because I believe reversion was wrong in the light of the discussion already under way and he reverted again to effectively invite an edit war. I decided to leave the article be while the discussion continued, especially as the IP rejoined it. I consider Mr Browne's actions to be out of order, as he reverted reliably sourced content that was under discussion with no opposition at that time, so I warned him about removing content.

I was unavailable all day yesterday and this morning I found that the discussion has moved on in the meantime. I became aware that members of WP:CHESS had joined it, as they have every right to do, but I then found the invitation to them by Mr Browne which breaches WP:CANVAS because: "Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior". In Mr Browne's invitation, he talks about fringe theories and a complete lack of evidence. The latter is untrue as he knows because the discussion has been mainly about the evidence and the former is an attempt to denigrate the case for inclusion of the theory which, the IP and I both acknowledge, is a minority view but nevertheless relevant. As WP:CANVAS considers such action to be disruptive, I warned him about disruptive behaviour and explained that he should invite using the Please See template.

I replaced Mr Browne's invitation with the accepted template version that simply invited interested editors to join the discussion, as recommended by WP:CANVAS. He has reverted that and told me to piss off.

I am posting a link to this discussion on Mr Browne's talk page, as required. If I need to do anything else or if I can provide any extra information, please let me know. Thank you. No Great Shaker (talk) 12:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's any point getting into the rights and wrongs of BRD when someone reverts but joins the existing discussion within 3 minutes and there is no pressing reason why your version must stay (e.g. BLP). Just discuss and come to a consensus. The incivility also seems way too minor to worry about especially with only one examples. The canvassing may be more significant I don't know I didn't look. Nil Einne (talk) 12:57, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The canvassing issue at least deserves an undo. I've done that. @MaxBrowne2: Is there a reason you're being intentionally antagonistic here? Do you have a reason to be a dick or are you just having a bad day?--v/r - TP 13:26, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MaxBrowne2: You've reverted my undo. You are in violation of a guideline, WP:CANVASS. How about you come here and discuss it before earning yourself an edit warring block?--v/r - TP 14:11, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TPG very clearly states that legitimate talk page discussion should not be edited or reverted. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MaxBrowne2:WP:CANVASS very clearly states not to post what you did, but you apparently like to cherry-pick guidelines. WP:EW doesn't make an exception for WP:TPG. I suggest you revert yourself.--v/r - TP 14:28, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looking in to this more, have to agree it was clearly canvassing and replacing it with a neutral message clearly justified so I have reverted back to the neutral version. Frankly I find this an extremely dumb dispute. I don't believe the result would have been any different without canvassing. Yet MaxBrowne2 canvassed creating unnecessarily ill feeling and perception the result is tainted. Okay people make mistakes, and when someone points it out you fix your mistake and move on. I mean if you're really so fixated on being the one who signs the post, then replace the canvassing with your own neutral message and sign it. I doubt No Great Shaker would have given a damn even if that's actually fairly WP:OWN like behaviour. If No Great Shaker had bothered to open this dispute and the only problems where the BRD and mild incivility they would have rightfully been told to not waste our time with content disputes and minor incivility. Instead we have a valid but extremely pointless thread because an experienced editor is refusing to abide by our canvassing guidelines. Nil Einne (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wholeheartedly agree. I also think the antagonistic behavior wasn't called for. I don't see what No Great Shaker did to trigger it other than discuss a topic MaxBrowne2 believes to be fringe.--v/r - TP 14:48, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) I would add that frankly I think given the nature of the location, dispute etc, by the time No Great Shaker had gotten to it, it was actually somewhat pointless. I strongly suspect any possible damage was done as most likely few new editors are going to be joining from the chess wikiproject. This is why it's important we get it right in the first instance. However it doesn't mean there's no justification for removing the canvassing. And maybe more importantly, even if it was fairly late, the longer the canvassing stays up there the more the damage is done. Therefore this isn't the sort of thing that is conducive to raising with the editor and asking them to revise it. Instead dealing with it straight away and informing the editor what you did and welcome them to replace your message with their own neutral message if they wish is probably the best course of action.

Looking at MaxBrowne2's talk page, I do think it was wrong for No Great Shake to leave both templates messages. The reversion dispute was as I said just silly and definitely not worth of a templated messaged. And while there were legitimate concerns over the canvassing, it would have been better as I said to politely inform MaxBrowne2 of what was done and remind them of our canvassing guidelines. Still while I can understand the annoyance upon receiving the templated messages, this still doesn't justify the canvassing and the instance on keeping it.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @TParis: and @Nil Einne:. As you said, I would never have come here over the BRD or the silly sarcasm alone but it did seem to me that canvassing by making a non-neutral point is unacceptable and when he reverted my replacement I thought I should report that with the rest mentioned as background. The other people from WP:CHESS are being very constructive so lets hope we can now move on with the discussion and decide what should or should not be written. Thanks again for your help and, this being the first time I've used this page, for providing some good advice and learning points. All the best. No Great Shaker (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MaxBrowne2 (talk · contribs) has been blocked 24 hours by User:Bbb23 per a complaint at WP:AN3. EdJohnston (talk) 15:43, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let me remind you-- there is no cabal. Dlohcierekim (talk)

No evidence of any "influence" because there isn't any and wouldn't be any. All WP:CHESS members who saw his post know Maxbrowne2 had a concern over a likely WP:SNOW-close issue. (If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If Maxbrowne2 posts his opinion, does it exert influence on any active WP:CHESS member's view re the history of chess having theoretical foothold in Rome? Not even remotely likely.) It may on surface have looked like WP:CANVAS to uninvolved non-project members. But not really. --IHTS (talk) 20:03, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You should take your knowledge of WP:CHESS and write an exemption into WP:CANVASS. Or don't, because the policy exists to avoid not just undue influence, but also the appearance of undue influence. It's meant to keep consensus clean and reduce to appearance of a cabal. But, if you want to come here and tell everyone that WP:CHESS all think the same way and openly coordinate inputs to discussions, maybe we really do need to take a look to see if there is a cabal.--v/r - TP 22:54, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ihardlythinkso: Yeah it's a particularly silly suggestion. If you really all think alike, then WTF do you need canvassing? Just learn to write neutral messages, or use the template and no one would have concerns and we would not be here. If you're so sure you don't need canvassing to make up your minds, prove it! The only reason you would be afraid to write neutral messages is if you think you do need canvassing to influence your opinions. So either there is no reason for you all to fail to follow the policies and guidelines the rest of the community follows and successfully use to build a great encyclopedia. Or there is a reason and that reason is because you want to formulate opinion in semi-private to get your way, and so you should all be blocked and your wikiproject shut down. I said at the beginning in my opinion there would have been no difference if there was no canvassing. While I still believe that, the way @MaxBrowne2: and IHTS keep insisting they need to be allowed to canvas is starting to make me wonder if I was wrong. Why else would people be so insistent they need to be allowed to canvas? Nil Einne (talk) 05:18, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think IHTS is "insisting they need to be allowed to canvas." I think IHTS is saying that with the particular example of MaxBrowne2's message, whether it was neutrally worded or not doesn't really matter given the context. I tend to think he's mostly right about that. Was it still canvassing? Sure. I tend to agree with TP that, effectively, canvassing (whether or not it's effective) taints the consensus-building process. Doesn't seem like there's much more to be done, though. I worry that the longer this is left open, the worse things could get. Hopefully Max will try to make any sort of notification of a discussion neutrally worded in the future, for appearances if nothing else. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:06, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that in spite of Max adding his opinion in his notice at WT:CHESS, there was no intent to "influence" other project members, so he can't be accused or charged w/ same. And I'm right ... I just looked and this is right out of the beginning of WP:CANVASS: Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate. In lots of cases of jurisprudence *intent* is important factor and also here. (So TParis, your "the policy exists to avoid [...] the appearance of undue influence" isn't there; it seems to be an expansion of the jurisprudence in your own thinking or desire that it be there. So you're the one who needs to consider whether you should modify WP:CANVASS, not me!) --IHTS (talk) 01:44, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cydonia (The Face on Mars)

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Can we please have an uninvolved admin take a quick peak at the slow-burn edit war going on with this article?

Last month this account showed up to add fringe ideas about the famous rock formations on this part of Mars. Their user name is a reference to this diagram that they have tried to add to the article multiple times.

When they didn't get their way, they did a PROD[455], and then tried to alter the timestamp so it would look like it had been uncontested for a week[456].

On their talk page they've been warned a few times. To their credit, Since being warned, I think they've stayed below 3RR, but they keep at it. They even used edit summaries to accuse Wikipedia of being part of a conspiracy to suppress The Truth.[457]

Tonight their strategy is to remove all mention of how the scientific community dismissed believers in The Face. [458][459].

I'm not even sure what resolution I'm hoping for here, but this is getting rather tedious. Maybe DiagramOfSymmetry could be encouraged to focus on other topics for a while?

Thank you. ApLundell (talk) 06:58, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I was going to indef this account as nothere, but NRP beat me to it by a minute. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I find it kind of weird that the situation got to this point. Someone faked the timestamp on a prod and wasn't blocked? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both. ApLundell (talk) 13:05, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Hateful edit summary left

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an admin check out this diff over on Women and video games. While the edits made are not actually disruptive, the name of the user is questionable and edit summary is inappropriate. Koncorde (talk) 12:44, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Koncorde: Edit summary and username hidden, and user blocked. In future please use WP:OVERSIGHT. GiantSnowman 12:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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@Koncorde, GiantSnowman, and Nosebagbear: Sorry to add to a closed discussion but I can see the offensive username here by hovering over the link in the second sentence in Koncorde's comment. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:C076:90F0:84EA:62CE (talk) 15:30, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. GiantSnowman 15:34, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Mark Dice meatpuppet legal threats

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I wanted to make other admins aware of the legal threats by Granitehope, a meatpuppet of Mark Dice, in case other meatpuppets make similar threats. 331dot (talk) 11:45, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you have done the right thing. Deb (talk) 12:16, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone reading this should add Mark Dice to their watchlists, as I did some time ago. Monitor that page. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:39, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Triggerhippie4

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The user Triggerhippie4 is repeatedly deleting comments on their talk page, and I do not think they care what people are saying. I posted a comment [460] asking them to stop deleting everyone's comments on their talk page, and they deleted my comment. I'm pretty sure this is not allowed, since I have been blocked in the past for screwing with other people's comments. Their edit descriptions when they delete other people's comments are always about something unrelated, just to make it seem like they are deleting things for a reason. When they deleted comments, they did not archive any of them, and this makes it look like they are avoiding scrutiny for discretionary sanctions and when they were blocked twice. Bill Williams (talk) 23:45, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

LilBillWilliams, you might find WP:BLANKING helpful in this instance. Schazjmd (talk) 23:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As Schazjmd says, I would encourage you to read the that policy and consider removing this post. I will also say it is unclear what remedy you seek. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now this user is accusing me of being a sock puppet of some random person. They are just angry that I asked them to stop deleting talk page comments. I don't even live in the same country as the other user, and I disagreed with their policies. Bill Williams (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:BLANKING, users are expressly allowed to delete comments on their own talk pages. I might be somewhat annoyed too. Dumuzid (talk) 23:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even if they are allowed to delete everyone's comments on their talk page, this user is making blatant accusations that are obviously false. They are accusing me of being a sock puppet of some random Israeli man, immediately after I posted a comment on their talk page asking them to stop deleting comments. I don't even live on the same continent as that guy, and I disagreed with his policies. Bill Williams (talk) 23:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly do not condone untrue accusations, but there was some provocation from your side with regard to the talk page. Is there a reason you can't simply steer clear of this person? Moreover, I just realized you haven't notified the editor. I will do so now @Triggerhippie4:Dumuzid (talk) 00:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I notified them on their talk page, but they deleted the comment. Of course I could steer clear of the editor, but they just did something that is very annoying. They shouldn't be allowed to go around making false accusations as they did with me. Bill Williams (talk) 00:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I believe you re: notification, but making doubly sure can't hurt. I'm sorry you're annoyed by their behavior, but I think you'll find online there is a good deal of behavior that is very annoying yet expressly tolerated. I'm not sure what you think would solve things; an interaction ban? Dumuzid (talk) 00:08, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not a ban, but they need to be warned not to make serious accusations without a lot of evidence. The Israeli man lived on across the Atlantic from me (I am in the US), uses a different writing style, disagreed with my opinion, and is at least 20 years older. If they actually investigated at all, they would have immediately known that we are different people. Bill Williams (talk) 00:11, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Triggerhippie4 opened SPI, the dispute is continuing there. Schazjmd(talk) 00:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. I'll quit there -- Bill, I would highly advise you to let the investigation run its course and ignore all of this to the best of your ability. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:16, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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