위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive949
Wikipedia:성서 고고학의 TBAN for Korvex
| 이 스레드에서 확인된 많은 사용자 수행 문제에 대해 커뮤니티에 의해 무기한 금지된 사이트.이 편집자는 그가 정책과 지침을 따를 수 있거나 기꺼이 따르려고 하거나 백과사전을 짓기 위해 이곳에 왔다는 것을 증명하지 못했다.중립성talk 18:18, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
Korvex는 순수한 WP이다.성서 고고학 주제를 위한 SPA, 위키백과(성서 속 내러티브가 실제 역사라는 관점)에 성서 극대주의의 강력한 POV를 가져다주는 사람.
2016년 10월 계좌를 개설한 이후 편집 건수 기준으로 364건이 수정됐다.그중 200개는 기사토크, 90개는 기사 그 자체다.
코벡스는 거의 전적으로 브라이언트 G의 사물을 인용하고 있다. 우드가 연구책임자로 있는 성서연구협회(ABR) 홈페이지에 게재된 우드드라마 게시판.ABR은 자신을 사역이라고 묘사하고 있으며 "정보" 페이지에 있는 "성서적 부정행위에 관한 시카고 성명"과 연결된다.
다른 이들은 또한 ABR에 인용된 나쁜 내용을 추가했다.예를 들어, 여기의 IP는 ABR 웹사이트의 이 페이지에 그들의 연구가 왜 필수적인지를 설명하는 비디오를 추가했다. 즉, "이것은 (불확실성) 학자들이 아이 포획, 일반적인 정복, 암시에 의한 엑소더스, 그리고 궁극적으로 하나님의 아들의 복음서의 설명에 대한 역사성을 거부하도록 이끌었다." (명백하다)목구멍)
샘플 편집:
- 두 번째 편집은 출애굽기(Book of Extendors)로, "myth"라는 단어를 삭제하고 BCE로 바꼈으며, 몇 구절이 발견된 아주 오래된 작은 두루마리 때문에 토라 전체가 매우 늙었을 것이라는 주장을 덧붙여, 일부 성경 구절에 OR을 인용했다.그것은 되돌렸다.
- 다음 편집은 그것이 일어났던 "증거"에 내용을 추가했고, 그것은 되돌렸다.코벡스가 복구되었다.다시 되돌아왔다.그 다음 날 한 IP가 나타나 고고학에 관한 2개 부분을 삭제했다.되돌린 거야
- 다음 편집은 올바른 Talk 페이지에서 해당 변경에 대해 논박한다.그리고 두 편집자의 사용자 대화 페이지도 찾아갔다. 사용자:Isambard Kingdom(디프) 및 사용자:더그 웰러(diff)는 블로그에 글을 올려 자신의 편집을 지지한다고 주장했다.ABR 웹사이트.
너는 이해되고 있다.나머지는 더 똑같다.
이 포스팅은 최근 코벡스가 조슈아에게 정복당했다고 성경에 거론된 도시 아이(캐넌)를 고정시킨 데 따른 것으로, 학자들은 아직 최종적인 RW 사이트를 찾지 못하고 있다.코벡스의 영웅 브라이언트 우드는 아이아가 오늘날 Khirbet el-Maqatir라고 믿고 있다. 다른 사람들은 그렇게 생각하지 않지만, 코벡스는 (여기서 Guy에 의해, 부분적으로 Korvex에 의해 복구된) 그것과 같은 것에 상당한 무게를 두고 싶어하고, 내가 여기에 다시 돌아온다.
코벡스는 한 달 후에 나타나 편집된 책에서 또 다른 우드 ref를 추가해 이것이 ABR과는 무관하다고 주장하려고 했다.내가 돌아왔고, 코벡스가 복구됐고, 다시 제거했어.
우리는 편집된 책장이 종종 확고한 학구적인 작품이 아니기 때문에 그 출처를 거절했다. 그리고 우리는 그가 했던 RSN에 가도록 격려했다. 그리고 출처가 어디에 찍혔는지.
코벡스는 이틀 전에 다시 나타나서, 더그 웰러에 의해, 여기 코벡스에 의해 복구되었고, 사용자들에 의해 복구되었다.여기 코벡스에 의해 복구된 드레이아스가 여기 내 손으로 돌아갔어
비록 이 코르벡스가 내 사용자 Talk 페이지에 이렇게 메모를 남기는 것은 말할 것도 없고(다른 잘못된 편집자의 가짜 편집 전쟁 경고에 관한 이야기) 말할 것도 없이 BLUGOON은 이 대화 페이지에서 왁자지껄하게 벗어났다.
코벡스는 타임슬립이 되어가고 있다.그것들은 WP가 아니다:백과사전을 짓기 위해서가 아니라, 성서 고고학에서 성서 역사성을 위한 SPA 옹호자로, 가난한 출처를 가져오는 것, 그것들을 지키기 위해 전쟁을 편집하는 것, 그리고 토크 페이지를 두드리는 것과 같은 전형적인 일들을 하고 있다.성서 고고학의 TBAN을 고려해달라고 지역사회에 요청하고 있다.Jytdog (대화) 00:39, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 성서 고고학은 내가 많이 알고 있는 것과는 거리가 멀지만, 코벡스가 강력한 POV로 편집하고 있는 것 같다는 점을 주목하겠다.예를 들어, 그들은 리처드 도킨스가 아내와 별거하고 있다는 사실을 이혼한 것으로 바꿨는데, 그 때 소식통이, 아주 구체적으로, 그들이 별거하고 있다고 말했다.그는 또한 오픈 액세스 저널인 히브리 성서의 저널의 인용문을 사용하여 출처를 밝히지 않고 단지 논문의 작가와 제목만 밝히지 않은 채 요점을 만들었다.(물론 오픈 액세스 저널은 논문의 존재와 그들이 어떤 사설 논평을 할 수 있는 것 이외에는 RS로서 용납될 수 없을 것이다.저널에 의해 출판된 자료)그가 무지에서 그런 짓을 했는지, 근원을 감추기 위해 그랬는지는 모르겠다.내가 보기엔 위험해 보였던 수많은 그의 편집들이 다른 편집자들에 의해 뒤바뀌었다.나는 그들의 주제에 대해 뭔가를 알고 있는 사람들은 코벡스의 편집을 자세히 살펴봐야 한다고 생각한다.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 01:00, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- Jytdog는 명백한 실수를 많이 한다.Jytdog는 분명히 내가 인용하는 "유일한 사람"이 나의 "영웅" 브라이언트 우드라고 믿고 있지만, 이 오류의 거대함은 대단하다.나는 1) 조지 멘덴홀, 2) 크리스토퍼 테이스, 3) 조슈아 베르만, 4) 코에르트 반 베쿰 등 내 위키역사의 수많은 학자들을 대화와 편집에 인용했다.Jytdog는 Wood만이 내가 인용하는 유일한 사람이라고 생각하는 것은 그야말로 거짓이다.
- 그리고 나서 Jytdog는 내가 편집한 유일한 것은 성서 고고학에 대한 내 이야기를 진전시키는 것과 관련이 있다고 말한다. 명백한 오류.나는 1) 윌리엄 F를 포함하여 성경 고고학 증명과는 전혀 상관없는 편집을 했다.올브라이트의 페이지 (문장 수정) 2) 에일랏 마자르의 페이지와 그녀의 발견을 확장하는 3) 핀켈슈타인의 책 성경 발굴 4) 온라인 백과사전 목록 6) 인터넷 철학 백과사전 7) 야키 예루샤라임 페이지 등Jytdog는 또한 내가 Wood가 출판한 거의 모든 것의 출처를 찾으려고 노력한다고 말할 때 또 다른 우스운 실수를 저지르지만, 내가 Wood로부터 언급한 유일한 작품은 Khirbet el-Maqatir에 대한 그의 작품이다.하지만, 위키피디아에 대한 내 연구의 대다수가 이스라엘의 종교와 정치 상태, 그리고 이스라엘 고고학자들과 관련이 있다는 것은 사실이다.Jytdog의 유일한 연구는 ai(캐나다)의 토크페이지에 국한된 것으로 보인다.Jytdog는 또한 Wood로부터 어느 누구도 Ai의 신원을 Khirbet el-Maqatir로 간주하지 않는다고 말했을 때 또 하나의 중대한 오류를 범하지만, 그것은 다른 페이지가 논의하기에는 오류다.
- Jytdog의 비난은 나에 대한 개인적인 복수에서 오는 것이 분명해야 한다.내 금지를 옹호하는 그의 직책은 조롱으로 가득 차 있고, 인신공격도 많다(나는 '싱크 타임 배'라는 것이다).Jytdog는 명백한 개인적인 복수를 가지고 있는데, 여기서 그는 선택적으로 선택한 몇 개의 편집이 되돌리는 것이 금지에 해당한다고 믿는다.
- 비욘드 마이 켄에 대해서는 담담한 어조로 글을 올리고 그에 따라 상황을 판단하려 하기 때문에 명백히 중립적인 사람이 좋은 지적을 한다.나는 사실 오픈소스 저널 JHS에 오류를 범하는 것 같았고, 도킨스의 페이지에 대해서는, 출처가 "이혼"이라고 말하든 "분리"라고 말하든, 도킨스는 사실 세 번째 아내와 이혼했다.출처가 그것을 반영하지 못한다면, 우리는 위키피디아의 독자들에게 도킨스가 단순히 '분리'된 것이 아니라, 오히려 애매한 용어인 랄라 워드와 이혼했다는 것을 분명히 하는 새로운 출처를 얻을 필요가 있다.예를 들어 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3694202/Britain-s-highest-profile-atheist-Richard-Dawkins-announces-end-24-year-marriage-Dr-actress-Lalla-Ward.html Korvex (talk) 01:14, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[를 참조하십시오.
- 그런 식으로는 안 된다.정보원이 무슨 말을 하면 우리는 그것을 보고한다.동의하지 않으면 다른 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 찾아 토론한다.당신은 그것을 변경하지 않고 청구에 맞는 출처를 찾으려고 노력한다.또한 DM은 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 아니라고 결정되었다.다시 시도하라. --타라지(토크) 01:40, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 왜 히브리 성서의 저널이 문제인가?
- 그리고 왜, (물론, 공개 접속 저널은, 저널이 발행한 자료가 아닌, 저널의 존재와 그들이 어떤 사설 논평을 할 수 있는 것 이외에는 어떤 것에 대해서도 RS로서 받아들여지지 않을 것이다.)인가?오픈 액세스 저널을 약탈적인 오픈 액세스 저널과 혼동하는 것 같은데, 왜?앤디 딩리 (대화) 23:17, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이 편집자와 광범위한 경험을 가지고 있지 않지만, 나의 짧은 상호작용은 불쾌했다.나는 이 편집자가 프린지 장학금을 고수하고 있다고 생각하는데, 내가 보기에 그들은 기사공간에 있는 그 까다로운 관점을 선호하려고 하는 것 같다.그들은 또한 여기서 편집 과정이 어떻게 작용하는지에 대한 기본적인 이해가 부족한 것 같다(최근의 되돌림과 그들의 코멘트를, Ai(캐나다)와 Talk:아이 (캐나다)마침내 오마이갓, 그들이 이 강연 페이지에 게재한 해적의 양은 한 사람을 미치게 하기에 충분하다. 그리고 나는 POV 전사들과 다른 건방진 편집자/호비스트/프링게 거주자들의 그러한 장황한 전형적인 모습을 발견한다.물론, 나는 주제 금지를 지지한다.드레이미스 (토크) 02:19, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 여기 있는 다른 편집자들이 말한 바와 같이, 코벡스의 편집 이력은 다른 편집자들을 위해 많은 양의 작업을 만들어냈다.코벡스의 편집은 대부분 위키백과 페이지 자체가 아니라 대화 페이지인데, 여기서 (대부분의 경우) 결과는 길고 비생산적인 의견 불일치로, 한쪽은 코벡스, 다른 쪽은 모든 편집자가 편집한다.나는 길고 지루한 "코벡스 콘트라 일상" 세션에서 "다른 편집자" 중 한 명이었다.코벡스는 종교와 관련된 주제들에 독점적이거나 거의 독점적으로 초점을 맞추고 있으며, 일반적으로 기사를 최대주의자(즉, 종교적으로 보수적인) 입장에 따라 더 나아가기 위한 시도로 편집된다.일반적으로 Korvex와 다른 편집자들 간의 논의는 해결책에 이르지 못하고, Korvex가 여러 인용 자료의 내용을 자주 잘못 설명하고 위키백과 정책 페이지의 의미를 잘못 설명하는 Korvex의 길고 지루하며 일관적으로 무례한 게시물로 가득 차 있다.Korvex는 아마도 성경의 역사성과 관련된 분야를 벗어나 위키피디아에 건설적으로 기여할 수 있는 능력을 가지고 있을 것이지만, 그들의 편집 이력이 POV-pushing의 긴 캠페인이며 종종 미개한 필리버스팅으로 보이는 어조를 가지고 있다는 점을 감안할 때, TBAN이 적절할 것이다.그렇지 않으면, 코벡스는 미래에 파괴적이고 백과사전 구축이라는 목표로부터 주의를 딴 데로 돌릴 가능성이 있다.지금처럼 계속 편집한다면 다른 편집자들은 (1) 화가 난 편집자와 오랫동안 무과실 토론을 반복하거나, (2) 단순히 포기하고 드라마를 피하기 위해 편파 편집을 허용하는 선택을 받게 될 것이다.알레프 (대화) 02:41, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- TBAN 중립적 데이트를 없애고 유대교에 관한 기사에서 기독교적 데이트를 추가하는 것에 대한 강력한 지지는 그 자체로 다른 모든 것이 없어도 금지를 정당화하기에 충분할 것이다.IMO, 우리는 이 특정 지역의 민간인과 미개한 POV-pusers 모두에게 너무 많은 관용을 가지고 있다.그는 내가 그를 명명하는 것을 좋아하지 않지만, 내가 이 지역에서 그가 그랬어야 했던 것보다 훨씬 더 오랫동안 대규모 파괴적인 POV-퍼셔를 운영했다고 말할 때, 모든 사람들이 내가 누구를 말하는지 알고 있을 것이다. 행정부는 그가 진화론자들과 세속주의자들을 나치라고 부르기 시작할 때까지 그에 대해 많은 것을 하기를 두려워하는 것 같다.(모르는 사람이 있으면 비쇼넨에게 물어봐.)내가 아는 한, 히브리 성경의 초기 책들과 고고학, 지질학, 생물학, 역사와의 관계에 관련된 문제들이 빨리 발견되고 다루어질수록 좋다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 03:39, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- BTW, 나는 그 금지가 고대 이집트와 근동으로부터 이루어져야 한다고 생각한다.Jytdog가 제안한 TBAN 매개변수는 너무 좁고 실제로 설명한 파괴적 행동의 상당 부분을 포함하지 않는다.리차드 도킨스의 결혼 지위는 다른 것들과 너무 멀리 떨어져 있어서 나는 그것이 필요한 것으로 보이면 그것을 덮을 수 있는 유일한 방법은 "종교"로부터의 TBAN으로 하는 것이라고 생각하지만, 다른 것들의 대부분은 반드시 성서 고고학적으로 보이지는 않지만 "고교적인 이집트와 근동"에 속하는 것으로 보인다.예를 들어, "mys"라는 단어의 정의를 놓고 다투는 것은 고고학과는 전혀 관계가 없으며, 그는 고대 문헌에 관한 기사에서 이 일을 하고 있었는데, 이 역시 반드시 제안된 매개 변수들에 속하지는 않을 것이다.WP를 위반하여 유대인 주제에 관한 기사에서 그리스도교적 데이트를 위한 디토:평균자책(고고학과는 전혀 관계가 없으며, 그는 제안된 금지법 하에서 쉽게 그것을 계속할 수 있었다).게다가, 나는 "성경 고고학"이라는 용어의 팬은 아니다. 이 용어는 Korvex와 같은 POV를 가진 사용자들에게 너무 많은 근거를 제공하는 오래된 용어다. Christine Hayessays와 같다.
그리고 그것은 분명히 성서 고고학이라고 불렸다. 흥미로운 이름이었다. 왜냐하면 그것은 고고학자들이 성서 본문의 세부사항을 검증할 증거를 찾고 있었다는 것을 암시하기 때문이다.
우리는 성서 고고학을 하고 있다. 성서 문헌을 뒷받침하는 고고학을 하고 있다. [...] 점점 더, 지금 팔레스타인의 고고학, 또는 성서 고고학보다는 고대 근동의 고고학, 또는 레반트족의 고고학이라고 불리고 있는 것의 실무자들이 - 이들 고고학자들 중 몇몇은 상관관계를 지적하는 데 관심이 없어졌다.
고고학적 자료와 성서적 이야기 사이 또는 성서의 본문을 온전하게 유지하기 위해 모순된 점을 설명하려고 노력한다.
히지리 88 (聖や) 04:12, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- BTW, 나는 그 금지가 고대 이집트와 근동으로부터 이루어져야 한다고 생각한다.Jytdog가 제안한 TBAN 매개변수는 너무 좁고 실제로 설명한 파괴적 행동의 상당 부분을 포함하지 않는다.리차드 도킨스의 결혼 지위는 다른 것들과 너무 멀리 떨어져 있어서 나는 그것이 필요한 것으로 보이면 그것을 덮을 수 있는 유일한 방법은 "종교"로부터의 TBAN으로 하는 것이라고 생각하지만, 다른 것들의 대부분은 반드시 성서 고고학적으로 보이지는 않지만 "고교적인 이집트와 근동"에 속하는 것으로 보인다.예를 들어, "mys"라는 단어의 정의를 놓고 다투는 것은 고고학과는 전혀 관계가 없으며, 그는 고대 문헌에 관한 기사에서 이 일을 하고 있었는데, 이 역시 반드시 제안된 매개 변수들에 속하지는 않을 것이다.WP를 위반하여 유대인 주제에 관한 기사에서 그리스도교적 데이트를 위한 디토:평균자책(고고학과는 전혀 관계가 없으며, 그는 제안된 금지법 하에서 쉽게 그것을 계속할 수 있었다).게다가, 나는 "성경 고고학"이라는 용어의 팬은 아니다. 이 용어는 Korvex와 같은 POV를 가진 사용자들에게 너무 많은 근거를 제공하는 오래된 용어다. Christine Hayessays와 같다.
- 다른 면을 고려하라 이 "장기적이고 비생산적인" 논쟁은 내가 아는 한 지금까지 세 페이지에 걸쳐서만 나와 함께 일어났다.1) 엑소더스 2) 아이 (캐나안) 3) 신통학서내가 처음 올린 글에서, 나는 6페이지에 걸쳐서 내가 편집한 내용을 토크 페이지에 0 토론으로 보여주거나 기껏해야 2개의 짧은 응답으로 보여주었는데, 이것은 내 편집의 상당부분이 순조롭게 진행되었음을 보여준다.물론 나는 6개 이상의 것을 보여줄 수 있다.신화라는 단어에 대한 나의 '갈등'에 대해, 그것은 사실 알레프가 문자 그대로 위키피디아의 입장을 소설로 5권째의 성경책이라고 표기한 심각한 사안이다.이것은 나에게 용납될 수 없는 오류로, 물론 나는 그것에 응답했다.거의 모든 것이 끝난 3페이지의 지루한 토론 때문에 종교에 관한 모든 토론에서 내가 금지될 것이라고는 상상하기 어렵다.마지막으로, 만약 타라지가 위키백과 기준에 의해 데일리메일이 신뢰할 수 없다고 추론된 장소로 나를 안내할 수 있다면, 나는 그것을 받아들이겠다.그러나 다시 한 번, (그 중 두 페이지가 완전히 중단된) 세 페이지에 대한 논의 때문에 금지령을 내리는 것은 다소 불필요해 보인다.누군가가 BCE를 BCE로 바꾼 것에 대해 "그냥" 금지되어야 한다고 말했지만, 그것은 말 그대로 내가 방금 편집을 시작했고 WP에 대해 알지 못했던 위키백과 전체에서 처음 또는 두 번째 편집이었다.평균자책. 내가 토론에 참여하기 쉬운 그 3페이지의 편집도 그것이 차이를 만든다면 나는 받아들이고 싶다.— Korvex가 추가한 선행 미서명 논평 (대화 • 기여) 05:11, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 따라서 가려고 하는 모든 사람에게 위의 단락에서 "Alph"에 대한 언급은 Korvex [1]에 의한 편집에 관한 것이며, 나는 [2]로 되돌렸다.이로써 이 ANI가 이미 진행 중인 동안 진행되었던 최신 거래소가 여기에 생겨났다.Talk:모자이크 작가#Charter 신화와 최근 편집되지 않은 편집.알레프 (대화) 05:28, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코벡스, 프린지 이론을 밀어붙이거나 항이식, 공격, 비NPOV 편집을 한다면, 다른 사용자들이 얼마나 자주 이의를 제기하고 반격했는지는 중요하지 않아, '장기적이고 비생산적인 논쟁'을 낳는다.두 번이면 충분할 텐데, 네 스스로 인정한다고 해도 그것은 세 페이지나 떨어져서 일어났다.만약 당신이 POV를 밀어내는 SPA가 아니라면, 그것은 당신이 증명하기에 세상에서 가장 쉬운 일일 것이다; 그러나 당신은 당신이 다른 편집자들과 함께 대량으로 쏟아낸 기사의 수를 세는 것에 의지해야 한다. - 이것은 뭐라고 하는가?히지리 88 (聖や) 05:46, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코벡스, 여기 당신이 원했던 데일리 메일의 내용이 있다. [3].Grbergbergs Gråa Sång (대화) 07:51, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 따라서 가려고 하는 모든 사람에게 위의 단락에서 "Alph"에 대한 언급은 Korvex [1]에 의한 편집에 관한 것이며, 나는 [2]로 되돌렸다.이로써 이 ANI가 이미 진행 중인 동안 진행되었던 최신 거래소가 여기에 생겨났다.Talk:모자이크 작가#Charter 신화와 최근 편집되지 않은 편집.알레프 (대화) 05:28, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 나는 문제의 한 페이지에서 코벡스와 교류할 기회를 가졌다.나는 여러분 중 몇몇은 그가 어떻게 그렇게 나쁘지 않은지에 대해 내가 불평하기를 기다리고 있을 것이라고 확신해, 그리고 엄중한 경고로 충분할 거야.실망시켜서 미안하지만 내가 본 것을 바탕으로 성서 역사나 고대 이집트와 가까운 동부에 관한 기사에서 나온 TBAN을 강력히 지지해야 한다.나는 그들이 "탈출은 일어났다, 토론의 끝"이라고 말하는 것을 보고 "또 기회를 달라"는 선을 넘었다.그리고 만약 당신이 그것이 나쁘다고 생각한다면(그리고 주제에 대한 지식이 있다면), 그들이 그 결론에 도달하기 위해 사용했던 논리를 살펴보라.누군가가 실제로 그것이 설득력 있는 논쟁이라고 생각했다는 것을 알면 머리가 근질근질해진다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- MjolnirPants에게:'종교'에 대한 나의 금지가 불가피해 보이지만, 나는 의심할 여지 없이 출애굽에 대한 나의 주장을 확고히 했다.너는 나의 주장을 반박할 수 없었고, 우리의 개인적인 논쟁을 나를 금지하는데 사용하는 것은 비생산적인 것 같다.당신에게는 1) 이집트의 지리와 풍습에 관한 방대한 지식을 '맵'으로 설명하려고 노력함 2) 유목민 이주가 남았다는 주장을 방어하기 위해 불행히도 많은 시간을 허위로 판명된 후 3) 페트로비치를 '거짓말쟁이 학자'라고 부르기까지 나는 그의 실제 신념을 끄집어냈다.알스와 4) 아모세 1세 때 아바리스의 유기를 아멘호테프 2세 때 아바리스의 유기와 혼동한다.그래서, 당신이 그것에 대해 정말로 틀렸지만, 다시 말하지만, 이 대화는 어떤 실제적인 편집과는 아무런 관련이 없었다. 나는 특별히 당신과의 토론은 당신의 주장이 틀렸다는 것을 보여주기 위한 것이며, 또한 내가 지지한 내용을 위키 페이지에 추가할 의도는 없었다고 말했다.당신은 나와 함께한 엑소더스의 역사성에 대해 단순히 틀렸다. 내가 머독의 인용의 타당성이나 신화 페이지에 나와 있지 않은 것에 대해 틀렸기 때문이다.나는 당신에게 나의 토크 페이지에서 당신의 답변을 방어할 기회를 제공했지만, 당신은 내가 여기서 언급했던 1-4 포인트 때문에 할 수 없었다.그리고 세 번째로 누군가와 개인적인 대화를 통해 편집 금지를 하는 것은 일을 하는 방법이 아니다(그러나 다시 말하지만 현재로써는 금지가 불가피해 보인다.만약 당신이 우리의 개인적인 대화에서 사실상의 오류를 말하고 있었다고 주장하기를 원한다면, 당신은 그 증거를 내 토크 페이지로 가져와야 할 것이다.— Korvex가 추가한 선행 미서명 논평 (대화 • 기여) 14:46, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 위의 내용을 살펴보십시오: 파괴적인 형식과 그들의 직책에 서명하는 데 있어서 정말 빈번한 문제 이외에도, POV 문제는 관여를 거부하는 것과 반박하지 않는 것을 구분하지 못하는 명백한 의도적인 무능함으로 인해 명백하게 만들어진다.또한 그들은 그들 자신의 신념뿐만 아니라 사실의 측면에서도 압도적인 학자적 합의와 완전히 대립되는 성명서를 계속해서 고집하고 있다는 점에 유의해야 한다.
- 코벡스: 만약 당신이 그것을 이해하지 못할 경우, 내가 틀렸다고 주장함으로써 그들이 내 잘못을 증명했다고 주장하는 사람과 내가 교전하지 않을 것임을 이해하라.우리가 논의한 모든 사실의 모든 점들은 나 자신에 의한 증거에 의한 인용과 당신에 의한 대담한 주장에 의해 뒷받침되어 왔다.당신은 우리가 가진 짧은 토론에서 단 한 번도 내가 틀렸다는 것을 증명했다는 주장을 뒷받침할 증거를 제시하지 못했다.사실, 나는 바로 이 토론에서 바로 여기에서 당신이 엄청나게 지지받지 않는 주장을 계속하는 것을 아래에서 본다.네가 틀리는 것이 불가능하다고 분명히 믿고 있을 때 내가 더 이상 너의 잘못을 증명하려고 애쓰는데 시간을 낭비할 거라고 생각한다면, 너는 슬프게도 잘못 생각하고 있는 거야.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:58, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- Mjolnir에게 : 당신은 이것을 너무 개인적으로 받아들이고 있다.잠깐만 뒤로 물러나 있어.나의 모든 주장은 사실 참고인들의 지지를 받아왔다.리처드 헤스 같은 세계적 석학들의 인용구를 전해드렸지.만프레드 비에탁과 같은 학자들의 발굴에 대한 참고자료를 주었소.왜 내가 올리면 바로 네 기억에서 사라지냐?당신은 출애굽에 대한 당신의 견해에 이의를 제기할 수 있는 증거에 그다지 개방적이지 않은 것 같다.인용은 거의 안 하셨잖아요일부 유목민 정착촌에 대해 인용을 해주셨지만, 거듭 지적했듯이 유목민 정착촌이 아닌 유목민 이주 문제를 논의 중이었습니다.당신은 압도적인 학문적 합의가 나에게 불리하다고 말한다.네가 미니멀리스트 문학만 읽는 것 같구나, 므골니르리처드 헤스, 제임스 호프메이르, 유진 메릴, 케네스 키친과 같은 위대한 학자들은 이 주의 어느 날이라도 출애굽을 기각할 것이다.이 "합치"는 미니멀한 상상 속에서만 존재하는 것 같다, 나는 이것이 매우 자기 세밀하기 때문에 미니멀한 의제를 취하지 말아 줄 것을 간청한다.다시 한 번, 나는 내 입장에 대해 압도적인 증거를 제공했다.나는 내가 "거짓말"을 하고 있고 나와의 토론은 "시간 낭비"라는 말을 듣고 당신에게 끊임없이 모욕당하는 것에 싫증이 난다.모든 증거는 내 편이다.너는 단지 나에게 대답할 의사가 없다고 말하는 것이지, 실제로 나에게 대답할 수 없다는 것은 아니다.네가 아까 나에게 세 번이나 과장된 답변을 올렸다가 증거가 너무 압도적이어서 반박할 수 없게 되자 그만둔 걸 생각하면 좀 이상하다.당신은 당신의 가설을 유지하기 위해 페트로비치 같은 사람들을 "프링게 학자들"이라고 불렀다.이 주장들은 변명의 여지가 없다.너는 출애굽의 역사성에 관해서 나를 이길 수 없을 것이다.우리는 이 일이 끝나면 다시 대화를 나누지 않을 것 같으니 마지막 말을 해주겠다.당신은 당신의 청구에 대한 역사적 진실성을 옹호하려고 하거나, 아니면 다시 이름을 부르는 것에 의지할 수 있다.말씀 계속하세요코벡스 (대화) 17시 20분, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
Mjolnir에게 : 당신은 이것을 너무 개인적으로 받아들이고 있다.
잠깐만 뒤로 물러나 있어.
나의 모든 주장은 사실 참고인들의 지지를 받아왔다.
내가 말한 대로잖아.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:57, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- Mjolnir에게 : 당신은 이것을 너무 개인적으로 받아들이고 있다.잠깐만 뒤로 물러나 있어.나의 모든 주장은 사실 참고인들의 지지를 받아왔다.리처드 헤스 같은 세계적 석학들의 인용구를 전해드렸지.만프레드 비에탁과 같은 학자들의 발굴에 대한 참고자료를 주었소.왜 내가 올리면 바로 네 기억에서 사라지냐?당신은 출애굽에 대한 당신의 견해에 이의를 제기할 수 있는 증거에 그다지 개방적이지 않은 것 같다.인용은 거의 안 하셨잖아요일부 유목민 정착촌에 대해 인용을 해주셨지만, 거듭 지적했듯이 유목민 정착촌이 아닌 유목민 이주 문제를 논의 중이었습니다.당신은 압도적인 학문적 합의가 나에게 불리하다고 말한다.네가 미니멀리스트 문학만 읽는 것 같구나, 므골니르리처드 헤스, 제임스 호프메이르, 유진 메릴, 케네스 키친과 같은 위대한 학자들은 이 주의 어느 날이라도 출애굽을 기각할 것이다.이 "합치"는 미니멀한 상상 속에서만 존재하는 것 같다, 나는 이것이 매우 자기 세밀하기 때문에 미니멀한 의제를 취하지 말아 줄 것을 간청한다.다시 한 번, 나는 내 입장에 대해 압도적인 증거를 제공했다.나는 내가 "거짓말"을 하고 있고 나와의 토론은 "시간 낭비"라는 말을 듣고 당신에게 끊임없이 모욕당하는 것에 싫증이 난다.모든 증거는 내 편이다.너는 단지 나에게 대답할 의사가 없다고 말하는 것이지, 실제로 나에게 대답할 수 없다는 것은 아니다.네가 아까 나에게 세 번이나 과장된 답변을 올렸다가 증거가 너무 압도적이어서 반박할 수 없게 되자 그만둔 걸 생각하면 좀 이상하다.당신은 당신의 가설을 유지하기 위해 페트로비치 같은 사람들을 "프링게 학자들"이라고 불렀다.이 주장들은 변명의 여지가 없다.너는 출애굽의 역사성에 관해서 나를 이길 수 없을 것이다.우리는 이 일이 끝나면 다시 대화를 나누지 않을 것 같으니 마지막 말을 해주겠다.당신은 당신의 청구에 대한 역사적 진실성을 옹호하려고 하거나, 아니면 다시 이름을 부르는 것에 의지할 수 있다.말씀 계속하세요코벡스 (대화) 17시 20분, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 이 페이지에 더 올라 있는 또 다른 토론에서 MP의 ("MPs"?) 논평에 비추어 볼 때, 위의 내용은 상당히 심각하게 받아들여야 한다.
나는 여러분
중 몇몇은 그가어떻게 그렇게 나쁘지
않은지에대해 내가 불평하기를 기다리고 있을 것이라고 확신한다. 그리고 엄중한 경고로 충분할 것
이다.MP는 내가 이 부분에서 편집하는 것을 본 적이 있는 가장 참을성 있고 용서하는 사용자들 중 한 명이기 때문에, 그가 여기 있는 것처럼 내려오는 것은 주목할 만하다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:50, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[- 하원의원이 옳은 선택일 것이다.하원의원들은 완전히 다른 무언가가 될 것이다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:47, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- MjolnirPants에게 : 최근 나에 대한 당신의 인신공격은 통제할 수 없게 되고 있다.당신이 우리의 개인적인 논의에서 모든 것이 틀렸음에도 불구하고 나는 "반증할 수 없다"고 말한다.당신은 어떤 증거로도 당신의 진술을 뒷받침하지 않고 존중할 때 선을 넘고 있다. 나는 당신을 모욕하지 않고 나에 대한 당신의 모든 공격을 받아들이려 하고 있다. 그러나 당신은 위키피디아의 나의 제한시간을 당신이 내 성격을 공격함으로써 이전의 토론에서 당신의 무의미한 주장을 대신할 것이라고 생각하는 것 같다.이것은 절대적으로 논리적인 토론을 하는 방법이 아니다. 당신은 그들과 토론하는 데 성공했는지 여부와 상관없이 상대방을 존중해야 한다.페트로비치에 대한 최근의 인신공격과 관련해서도 수없이 많은 실수를 저지르십니다.나는 페트로비치가 시로팔레스타인 고고학 박사학위를 가지고 있고 윌프레드 로리에 대학의 고대 이집트의 교수라고 말했다.그런데도 너는 그를 공격한다.필자는 그 책이 동료들의 평판을 받았음을 보여주었고, 분명히 그가 자신의 연구를 찾을 수 있도록 돈을 모을 킥스타터가 필요했다는 사실(페트로비치는 거의 부자에 가까운 것이 아니다)은 그것을 부적격으로 간주했다.게다가, 틀에 박힌 가설들은 ASOR에서 제시되지 않는다. 물론 이 모든 것에도 불구하고 당신은 개인적으로 페트로비치를 공격한다.유진 메릴과 사라 도허티와 같은 다른 학자들로부터 그의 책에 대한 승인을 무시한 채, 그것이 변두리에 있을 뿐만 아니라 그에 대한 인신공격도 정당하다고 결론짓는다.당신의 행동은 당신이 나든 학자든 누군가를 실질적으로 다룰 수 없을 때 그들을 공격한다는 것을 반영한다.공교롭게도 페트로비치의 저서는 어떤 사람의 전제를 긍정하지 않는 논문의 선험적 거부에 대해 정확하게 말하고 있다.당신이 Wilfrid Laurier 대학의 고대 이집트 교수(비주류 학자가 캐나다 최고의 대학 중 한 곳에서 교수로 추측되는 재미있는 일)가 되면, 아마도 당신의 선험적인 해고가 고려될 수 있을 것이다.위키피디아에 대한 나의 세션은 거의 끝나가고 있다. 나는 수많은 페이지에 대한 나의 편집이 받아들여져서 기쁘다. 그리고 이것이 끝날 것이라는 것에 대해 엇갈린 생각을 가지고 있다.
- 그리고 이것은 왜 사이트반이 필요한지에 대한 완벽한 예다.너의 계속되는 주장에도 불구하고 페트로비치의 책은 동료들의 평판이 아니다.학구적인 논문이나 출판물에 관한 한 동료평가가 무엇을 의미하는지 이해하지 못하는 것 같다.둘째로, 변두리 가설은 실제로 ASOR 연례 회의에서 제시된다.학생 등 ASOR 회원에게 돈을 지불하는 사람은 누구나 연차총회에서 발표하게 할 예정이다.여기 그들의 규칙이 있다: http://www.asor.org/am/2017/rules.html은 참가자들에게 어떤 학문적인 신뢰도 부여하지 않는다.그 의자들은 그것을 제시할 수 있을 만큼 충분히 흥미롭고 그들은 채워야 할 많은 슬롯을 가지고 있다.마지막으로 유진 메릴은 어떤 면에서도 '대학생'이 아니다.그는 성서 문자 그대로의 신학 학술지에만 게재하는 성서적 문자론자다.솔직히 말하면 딱 하나야.그가 속해 있던 신학교에서 출판한 것.그는 변두리만큼이나 변두리야.성서의 불성서가 가장 중요하다.그렇기 때문에 그들은 자신들의 불성실성에 대한 '증거'가 결코 실제 학술지의 동료 평가를 통과하지 못할 것이기 때문에 그들만의 학술지를 만들어야 하는 것이다.카포 (토크) 13:50, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 케이포에게 : 케이포, 어떤 분석에서 말하는가?유진 H 메릴이 프린지 역할을 한다고?그의 작품 중 두 편이 백 번 이상 인용되었는데, 그 외 많은 작품도 많은 편이었다.내가 본 모든 것들과 그의 학문적 업적에 대한 영향력에 의해 확실히 유명한 구약성서 학자.위키피디아는 실제로 그가 댈러스 신학대학원(대럴 보크, 대니얼 월리스와 같은 교수로 신구약성서 장학금의 다른 유수의 학자들이 있는 주요 학술 기관)의 저명한 교수라는 점을 지적하는 (자문을 하지 않은) 페이지를 가지고 있다.그는 분명히 문자 그대로의 학자지만, 구약성서 장학금을 받는 다른 많은 일류 학자들도 마찬가지여서, 이것이 아마 가장자리 역할을 할 자격이 없을 것이다.내가 생각하기에, 세계 최고의 신약성서 학자는 N.T. 라이트(그의 작품에 인용된 인용구를 찾아보고 폭발하지 않도록 노력)로, 거의 모든 정의에 의한 문자 그대로의 학자다.그래서 물론 메릴의 이름이 새겨진 작품은 정의상으로는 1년 후에 잘못된 것으로 밝혀지더라도, 모든 것에 대해 옳다고 할 만한 학자는 전혀 알지 못하지만, 기각될 수 없는 것이다.코벡스 (대화) 23:11, 2017년 3월 18일 (UTC)[
- 나는 더 이상 페트로비치 일에 관여하고 싶지 않았지만, 그가 윌프리드 로리에의 교수라는 말을 듣는 데 지쳤다.그래, 언론에서 이렇게 불리고는 있지만, 그는 그렇지 않아.그의 academic.edu 사이트[4]는 그를 고대 이집트를 가르치는 부교사로 부르고, 대학은 그를 교수라고 부르지 않는다.여기를 보고 HI299E: 고대 이집트(WINTER)로 스크롤하여 제목이 지정되지 않은 곳으로 이동하십시오.하지만 HI121: 세계 컨텍스트의 고대 역사 (WINTER WINTER)에서 여러분은 이 제목을 가진 진짜 교수를 보게 될 것이다.그리고 그가 가르치고 있는 과목은 커리큘럼의 표준 부분이 아니다.HI299E와 "교직원이 정규 과정 개설에 속하지 않는 학습 주제를 추구하는 데 관심이 있을 때 특수 번호(HI299, HI346, HI496)를 소지하고 있는 경우 해당 번호를 기록해 두십시오.더그 웰러톡 14:11, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 고마워, 더그, 내가 그걸 알아냈을 것 같진 않아.나는 또한 당신과 문제의 기사들의 토크 페이지에 관련된 다른 편집자들은 내가 할 수 있는 것보다 훨씬 더 인내심을 보여 주었다고 말해야 한다.특히 그 엑소더스 토크 페이지는 좀처럼 보기 힘든 수준의 실책을 보여주는 예다.어떤 편집자도 OR, SYNTH, 근거 없는 반박의 이런 끝없는 반복을 참아내야 한다.특히 TBAN이 불충분하다고 내가 확신하게 한 것은 그 토크 페이지다.코벡스는 가장 기본적인 소싱 정책과 가이드라인조차 이해하려고 애쓰는 데는 관심이 없는 것 같다.카포 (토크) 15:10, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 나는 더 이상 페트로비치 일에 관여하고 싶지 않았지만, 그가 윌프리드 로리에의 교수라는 말을 듣는 데 지쳤다.그래, 언론에서 이렇게 불리고는 있지만, 그는 그렇지 않아.그의 academic.edu 사이트[4]는 그를 고대 이집트를 가르치는 부교사로 부르고, 대학은 그를 교수라고 부르지 않는다.여기를 보고 HI299E: 고대 이집트(WINTER)로 스크롤하여 제목이 지정되지 않은 곳으로 이동하십시오.하지만 HI121: 세계 컨텍스트의 고대 역사 (WINTER WINTER)에서 여러분은 이 제목을 가진 진짜 교수를 보게 될 것이다.그리고 그가 가르치고 있는 과목은 커리큘럼의 표준 부분이 아니다.HI299E와 "교직원이 정규 과정 개설에 속하지 않는 학습 주제를 추구하는 데 관심이 있을 때 특수 번호(HI299, HI346, HI496)를 소지하고 있는 경우 해당 번호를 기록해 두십시오.더그 웰러톡 14:11, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- MjolnirPants에게 : 최근 나에 대한 당신의 인신공격은 통제할 수 없게 되고 있다.당신이 우리의 개인적인 논의에서 모든 것이 틀렸음에도 불구하고 나는 "반증할 수 없다"고 말한다.당신은 어떤 증거로도 당신의 진술을 뒷받침하지 않고 존중할 때 선을 넘고 있다. 나는 당신을 모욕하지 않고 나에 대한 당신의 모든 공격을 받아들이려 하고 있다. 그러나 당신은 위키피디아의 나의 제한시간을 당신이 내 성격을 공격함으로써 이전의 토론에서 당신의 무의미한 주장을 대신할 것이라고 생각하는 것 같다.이것은 절대적으로 논리적인 토론을 하는 방법이 아니다. 당신은 그들과 토론하는 데 성공했는지 여부와 상관없이 상대방을 존중해야 한다.페트로비치에 대한 최근의 인신공격과 관련해서도 수없이 많은 실수를 저지르십니다.나는 페트로비치가 시로팔레스타인 고고학 박사학위를 가지고 있고 윌프레드 로리에 대학의 고대 이집트의 교수라고 말했다.그런데도 너는 그를 공격한다.필자는 그 책이 동료들의 평판을 받았음을 보여주었고, 분명히 그가 자신의 연구를 찾을 수 있도록 돈을 모을 킥스타터가 필요했다는 사실(페트로비치는 거의 부자에 가까운 것이 아니다)은 그것을 부적격으로 간주했다.게다가, 틀에 박힌 가설들은 ASOR에서 제시되지 않는다. 물론 이 모든 것에도 불구하고 당신은 개인적으로 페트로비치를 공격한다.유진 메릴과 사라 도허티와 같은 다른 학자들로부터 그의 책에 대한 승인을 무시한 채, 그것이 변두리에 있을 뿐만 아니라 그에 대한 인신공격도 정당하다고 결론짓는다.당신의 행동은 당신이 나든 학자든 누군가를 실질적으로 다룰 수 없을 때 그들을 공격한다는 것을 반영한다.공교롭게도 페트로비치의 저서는 어떤 사람의 전제를 긍정하지 않는 논문의 선험적 거부에 대해 정확하게 말하고 있다.당신이 Wilfrid Laurier 대학의 고대 이집트 교수(비주류 학자가 캐나다 최고의 대학 중 한 곳에서 교수로 추측되는 재미있는 일)가 되면, 아마도 당신의 선험적인 해고가 고려될 수 있을 것이다.위키피디아에 대한 나의 세션은 거의 끝나가고 있다. 나는 수많은 페이지에 대한 나의 편집이 받아들여져서 기쁘다. 그리고 이것이 끝날 것이라는 것에 대해 엇갈린 생각을 가지고 있다.
- 하원의원이 옳은 선택일 것이다.하원의원들은 완전히 다른 무언가가 될 것이다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:47, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- 주제 금지를 지지한다.이런 종류의 사용자들은 백과사전을 그들 자신의 세계관에 맞게 틀리게 만들기 위해 여기 있고, 그들의 세계관이 틀릴 가능성을 허락하지 않기 때문에 기진맥진하게 된다.가이 (도움말!) 08:38, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 성서 역사나 고대 이집트와 가까운 동부에 관한 기사로부터 TBAN을 지지하고, 종교인 도킨스에서 편집한 내용을 주어라.내가 그와 함께 겪은 문제들 중 하나는 출처를 잘못 알려 주는 것이다.그의 도킨스 편집은 그것의 좋은 예다.먼저 그는 '분리'를 '분리'로 바꿔 '분리'는 모호한 용어여서 실제 이혼임을 반영하지 못한다'는 편집 요약을 달았다.이는 출처가 이혼에 대해 아무런 언급도 하지 않고 있음에도 불구하고 말이다.그는 심지어 자신을 잘못 표현하기도 한다.우드를 밀친 혐의로 기소되자 그는 코에르트 반 베쿰과 같은 다른 소식통을 인용한다고 대답했다.반 벡쿰은 코벡스가 그를 이용했지만 그는 "그러나 숄라들이 엣텔이 아이(ii)의 소재지라고 확신하지는 않는다"고 덧붙였다.코에르트 판 베쿰은 브라이언트 G를 인용하여 아이 (Ai)를 포함한 몇 개의 성서 도시들의 위치에 대해 학술적인 논의가 있다고 말한다.최근 키르베트 엘 마카티르와 아이 신원을 확인하러 온 우드."이 단락은 이미 우드를 언급하면서 "브라이언트 G.우드의 신분증은 다른 사람들에게 거부당했지만 일부[12]에 의해 받아들여졌다."라고 말했고, 이것은 우드에 대한 또 다른 언급만 덧붙였다.뿐만 아니라 우드에 대한 언급은 각주에 "아이와 관련된 문헌과 베델과 엘비레의 동일성에 관한 관련 논의는 베이틴(172.148) 대신 D를 참조하라"고 적혀 있었다.Livingston, ‘Further Considerations on the Location of Bethel and El-Bireh’, PEQ 126 (1994), 154-9; B.G. Wood, ‘Khirbet el-Maqatir’, IEJ 50 (2000), 123-30; 249-54; for Tel el-Umeiri and Tel Jalul as candidates for Heshbon, see S.H. Horn, ‘Heshbon’, IDBS, 410; Idem, Hesban in the Bible and in Archaeology, Berrien Springs, MI 1982, 10-1; R.D. Ibach,‘An Intensive Survey at Jalul’, Andrews University Seminary Studies 16 (1978), 215-22; Geraty, ‘Heshbon’, 626." And given that the article was about the city of Ai, the failure to mention what van Bekkum actually said about Ai, "Et-Tell, identified by most scholars with the city of Ai, was not settled between the Early Bronze and Iron Age I." but이런 맥락에서 나에게 우드가 출처를 잘못 알리기 위해 보이는 것을 언급하는 각주만 사용한다.그는 확실히 우드의 다른 언급을 기사에 넣기 위해 그것을 사용했을 뿐인데, 그의 진술은 "Jytdog는 내가 우드를 인용하는 유일한 사람이라고 생각하는 것은 단순히 거짓이다." 약간 - 뭐, 약간은.그때 그는 토크 페이지에서 그가 거짓말을 하고 있다고 내가 하지 않은 것을 암시한다고 나를 비난했다.그것은 또 다른 큰 문제인데, 그가 토크 페이지 토론 중에 토론과 다른 편집자들에 대한 공격을 계속적으로 개인화한다는 것이다.사용자를 고발하는 범위:두 달 전, Tgeorgescu는 최근의 비방과 Tgeorgescu[7]에 대한 또 다른 공격 혐의에 대해 거짓말을 했다.그는 또한 사용자를 다음과 같이 비난했다.00000의 pov가 Talk에서 우리의 정책과 가이드라인을 잘못 전달하고 있다.아이 (캐넌)#브라이언트 우드와 성서 연구 협회
- 잘못된 표현, 빈약한 출처의 사용 등에 대해 더 자세한 내용을 제공할 수 있다. WP:나는 여기서 더 많은 시간을 낭비하고 싶지 않다.어쨌든 그것들은 대화 페이지에 언급되거나 논의된다.더그 웰러 토크 09:10, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 중립 지금은 그렇지만, 만약 그의 행동에 변화가 없다면, 코벡스는 조만간 TBAN을 받게 될 것이다, 그것은 피할 수 없는 일이다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 09:56, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코멘트 위는 충고였지만, 그의 후속 편집들을 보면, 그는 그 문제가 무엇에 관한 것인지 이해하지 못하는 것 같다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 21:54, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[하라
- 성서 고고학이나 성서 역사, 고대 이집트, 근동, 종교 등 이 끈질긴 포브 푸셔에 대한 무기한 토픽 금지에 대한 강력한 지지. 다른 어떤 분야에서도 의견 일치를 볼 수 있다.그 대상이 임의제재를 받았다면 내 책임으로 금지할 텐데, 그렇지 않으니 지역사회가 알아서 해주었으면 좋겠다.건설적인 편집자의 시간과 에너지는 위키피디아의 주요 자원이며, 그렇게 낭비해서는 안 된다.(알고 있어, 나는 그것과 함께 그라모폰 같은 존재지만 사실이야)JzG가 위에서 말했듯이, 이런 종류의 사용자는 기진맥진을 일으킨다.비쇼넨은 2017년 3월 16일(UTC) 10:51로 대화한다.추가: 아래의 추가 코멘트를 읽은 후, 나도 무기한 블록을 지지할 것이다.비쇼넨 토크 21:37, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)
- TBAN을 지원하십시오.저스트 토크:그가 쓴 엑소더스는 2만 단어에 육박하며 주춤할 기미가 보이지 않는다.게다가 그의 주장은 일탈과 궤변과 출처의 잘못된 표현으로 가득 차 있다.그는 자신이 믿는 것을 믿고 자기에게 불리한 주장을 하는 것은 쓸데없는 짓이다.그는 중동의 고고학, 언어사 등 종교와 성경 등과 관련된 어떤 주제에서도 사라져야 한다.제로talk 12:16, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 제로. 내가 "속도를 늦출 기미가 없다"는 것을 보여준 것은, 엑소더스의 토크 페이지에 나와 있는 나의 모든 대화가 끝났듯이, 나는 정확하지 않다는 것을 알게 되었다.언어의 역사는 종교는 이해하지만 언어의 역사는?유진 메릴과 같은 거창한 학자들에 의해 확인되었을 뿐만 아니라, 그것에 대한 논문이 동료들의 검토와 미국 동양 연구학교들에 발표되어 온 더그의 책을 다시 언급하고 있는가?당신은 종교에서 이 금지된 것을 가져가려고 하는 것 같고, 나와의 개인적인 의견 불일치에 부합하지 않는 주제를 확장하려고 하는 것 같고, 내가 편집하려고 시도하지 않은 주제들에 대해서도 확장하려고 하는 것 같다.코벡스 (대화) 14:46, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 많은 사람들이 나를 반대하는 상황에서 그 금지가 불가피해 보인다.나는 이미 세 페이지에 걸쳐서 (이 게시물의 시기에 의해 모든 것이 끝난) 대화를 끌어냈다는 것을 인정했고, 아마도 그것이 금지를 정당화할 수 있을 것이다.그러나 나는 사실 내가 편집한 내용이 사실이라고 생각했기 때문에 그것을 위키피디아에 추가하고 싶었던 실제 오류와 비논리적인 내용에 대한 비난으로부터 스스로를 방어할 것이다(예를 들어 도킨스는 실제로 랄라와 이혼했지만, 출처가 이 사건에서 '분리'라는 동의어를 사용했기 때문에, 이 사건, 이 사건에서 나는 실제로 편집에 추가하고 싶었던 것이다.나의 편집은 차단되었고, 현재 내가 POV-퍼셔라는 증거로 간주되고 있다.이곳은 내가 편집한 내용을 옹호하는 장소가 아니므로, 내가 위키피디아에서 실제로 추가하고 싶었던 진실과 관련하여 사실상의 오류를 범했다고 생각하는 사람이 있다면, 내 토크 페이지에서 나와 그것에 대해 논의할 수 있다.어쨌든, 나는 관점을 가지고 있다. 그리고 어쩌면 나는 그것을 두 번 혹은 세 번 너무 많이 받아들였을지도 모른다.나는 이 문제에 대한 행정관의 평결을 받아들일 것이다.코벡스 (대화) 14:46, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코벡스, 내가 너에게 묻고 싶은 것은 이 비판(그리고 나는 그것을 그렇게 많이 다루기가 쉽지 않다는 것을 알고 있다, 미안하다)이 너에게 이치에 맞느냐 하는 것이다.구체적으로, 당신은 당신의 편집의 총합성이 POV를 어떻게 증명하는지, 그리고 그 특정 POV가 어떻게 가장자리라고 여겨지는지 아십니까?아니면 적어도 중립은 아니겠지?아니면, 어쩌면, 비과학적인 고고학적 관점보다 덜 중립적인가?드레이미스 (토크) 2017년 3월 16일 15:31 (UTC)[
- 나에게 있어서 도킨스 편집의 문제는 당신이 지금 어떤 이유로 무신론자들과 무신론자들을 보고 있는 것이 아니다.무신론) 그러나 당신은 여전히 출처를 잘못 말하고 있다.우리는 출처가 "진정한 의미"가 무엇인지 스스로 결정하지 않는다.이런 종류의 소스 사용은 당신에게 항상 문제가 된다.그리고 더글라스 페트로비치의 책에 대해 제로에게 한 너의 대답은 또 다른 것이다.자꾸 과장해서 말하는구나.그의 "합성력"은 내가 아는 어떤 방식으로도 동료 검토가 되지 않았고, 그의 책은 내가 아는 바로는 이 책 말고는 아직 리뷰를 받지 못했으며, 당신은 그것을 생산하지 못했으며, 히브리어가 세계에서 가장 오래된 알파벳[8][9]의 기초라는 그의 논문은 확실히 널리 받아들여지지 않았다.더그 웰러가 15:51, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코벡스, 내가 너에게 묻고 싶은 것은 이 비판(그리고 나는 그것을 그렇게 많이 다루기가 쉽지 않다는 것을 알고 있다, 미안하다)이 너에게 이치에 맞느냐 하는 것이다.구체적으로, 당신은 당신의 편집의 총합성이 POV를 어떻게 증명하는지, 그리고 그 특정 POV가 어떻게 가장자리라고 여겨지는지 아십니까?아니면 적어도 중립은 아니겠지?아니면, 어쩌면, 비과학적인 고고학적 관점보다 덜 중립적인가?드레이미스 (토크) 2017년 3월 16일 15:31 (UTC)[
- Drmies, 그래, 난 내가 편집한 2-3개의 편집이 사실 POV 푸시를 했다는 것을 이해하고 인정해.나는 이것을 완전히 인정하고 만약 내가 금지령을 받으면, 나는 나에게 주어질 금지령을 받아들인다.과거의 행동은 잘못을 인정하는 것 외에는 아무것도 할 수 없다.페트로비치에 대해서는 이것이 나의 금지에 대한 논의와 무슨 관계가 있는지 모르지만 나는 이에 응할 것이다.페트로비치가 자신의 작품을 동료 검토하지 않은 것에 대해, 이것은 잘못된 것이다. 페트로비치의 출판사들이 동료 검토를 했다.나는 심지어 그의 책의 자금 지원 지지자들과의 그의 토론의 일부가 이것이 옳다고 출판되는 것을 발견했다.그것은 또한 미국 오리엔탈 연구학교 105-106쪽을 참고하여 발표되었는데, 이는 ASOR의 위상이 대부분의 저널에 의해 쉽게 동일시되지 않기 때문에 의미심장하고 확실히 "신뢰할 수 있는" 것으로 만들기 때문이다.더그, 당신은 또한 이 책이 오직 하나의 '리뷰'만을 가지고 있다는 것을 지적하고 있다. 하지만 그것은 이미 그것을 받아들이는 사람들(Eugene Merrill, Sarah Doherty, 나는 새로운 연대기 남자 David Rohl도 그것을 받아들인다, Carr)과 그것을 받아들이지 않는 사람들(Christopher Rolston, Thomas Shneider)의 토론에 박차를 가했다.이 이름들 중 몇몇은 꽤 커, 더그.이 주제에 관한 현재의 논쟁을 실제로 살펴보면, 그 증거가 페트로비치의 편에 상당히 유리하게 쌓여 있다는 것을 알 수 있을 겁니다. 긍정적이고 부정적인 토론은 모두 읽었습니다.원문-양자문자는 예를 들어 히브리어(아히세메흐와 같은)에서만 증명된 이름을 가지고 있다.마지막으로 express.co.uk이 위키피디아에서 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 여겨지는지는지는 모르겠지만, 그곳에서 도킨스와 랄라 사이에 일어난 일을 묘사하기 위해 "1998년 결혼은 끝이다"라는 문구를 사용한 기사를 발견했다.현재 내가 처한 상황을 고려해 편집을 시도하기 위해 사용하지 않겠지만, 만약 express.co.uk이 믿을 만한 출처로 여겨진다면, 도킨스의 페이지에 원본을 추가하고자 하는 편집자에게 기꺼이 원본을 보낼 것이다.코벡스 (대화) 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC) 16:23 [
- 코벡스, 내 OP에서 밝힌 바와 같이 지금까지 당신의 편집과 행동의 문제는 당신이 위키백과를 WP로 사용하기 위해 당신의 편집 권한을 남용했다는 것이다.SOAPBOX, 성경이 역사를 제시한다는 당신의 견해를 홍보하기 위해서입니다.종교 관련 기사에 대한 당신의 모든 편집은 그 POV에 관한 것이다.WP에서는 이것이 좋지 않다 -- WP:SOAPBOX는 기본적인 WP 정책이다.많은 WP는 다음과 같다.SPA 계정은 그렇다. SPA 계정은 결국 토크 페이지에서 끝없는 논쟁으로 모든 사람의 시간을 낭비하게 된다.당신은 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니라, 특정한 관점을 옹호하기 위해 여기에 있는 것이다.그게 문제야.네, 당신이 언급한 대로, 모든 사람들은 관점을 가지고 있지만, 우리는 모든 사람들이 그들이 로그인할 때 그것을 제쳐두고 중립적으로 편집할 것을 요구한다. (이것은 WP의 NPOV 정책에서 논의된다:YESPOV) 그렇게 할 수 없는 사람들은 주제를 금지시킨다.에세이 WP와 함께 이 포스트에 이미 나와 있는 세 가지 위키링크를 읽어 보십시오.옹호 및 WP:투덜거림과 WP:시민적 포브스가 밀고 있다.넌 그 모든 것들을 해왔잖아.Drmies는 당신이 이것을 볼 수 있는 자기감시를 할 수 있다는 희망과 그것을 본 후에 당신이 그것을 고칠 수 있을지도 모른다는 희망을 가지고 있다.지금까지 당신은 문제를 보지 않고, 또한 그 문제를 인정하지 않고 있으며, 나는 내가 내 OP에 있는 어떤 것과도 연결하지 않았다는 것을 알고 있다. 그래서 나는 그들을 여기서 제공했다.읽고 반성하고, 사람들이 여기에 쓴 글을 다시 읽고, 여기에 다시 답장해줘.고마워요.Jytdog (대화) 17:45, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 코벡스가 이 포럼을 통해 페트로비치 논란 전체를 재탕하려 한다는 사실이 바로 이 TBAN이 적절한 이유다.이미 많은 편집자들이 왜 페트로비치를 WP가 아니라고 일축하는지 논의한 긴 토론이 있었다.신뢰할 수 있다. 코벡스는 오랫동안 분노에 찬 에세이를 썼고, 그 상황을 반복적으로 잘못 전했으며, 그 자신이 아직 보지도 못했고 어떤 학술적인 출처에서도 검토되지 않았던 페트로비치의 책의 신뢰성을 다른 누구에게도 받아들이도록 설득하는 데는 아무 데도 실패했다.그가 그 죽은 말을 다시 치기 시작하기 위해 그의 행동에 대한 이 토론을 사용한다는 사실은 그가 어떻게 행동하고 더 생산적인 방향으로 움직일 기미를 보이지 않는 완벽한 예시다.그는 이미 위에서 논의된 대화 페이지에 대해 훨씬 더 길게 그리고 더 가혹한 어조로 이미 말하지 않은 것을 여기서 새로이 말한 것은 없다.알레프 (대화) 2017년 3월 16일 19:11 (UTC)[
- 코벡스, 내 OP에서 밝힌 바와 같이 지금까지 당신의 편집과 행동의 문제는 당신이 위키백과를 WP로 사용하기 위해 당신의 편집 권한을 남용했다는 것이다.SOAPBOX, 성경이 역사를 제시한다는 당신의 견해를 홍보하기 위해서입니다.종교 관련 기사에 대한 당신의 모든 편집은 그 POV에 관한 것이다.WP에서는 이것이 좋지 않다 -- WP:SOAPBOX는 기본적인 WP 정책이다.많은 WP는 다음과 같다.SPA 계정은 그렇다. SPA 계정은 결국 토크 페이지에서 끝없는 논쟁으로 모든 사람의 시간을 낭비하게 된다.당신은 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니라, 특정한 관점을 옹호하기 위해 여기에 있는 것이다.그게 문제야.네, 당신이 언급한 대로, 모든 사람들은 관점을 가지고 있지만, 우리는 모든 사람들이 그들이 로그인할 때 그것을 제쳐두고 중립적으로 편집할 것을 요구한다. (이것은 WP의 NPOV 정책에서 논의된다:YESPOV) 그렇게 할 수 없는 사람들은 주제를 금지시킨다.에세이 WP와 함께 이 포스트에 이미 나와 있는 세 가지 위키링크를 읽어 보십시오.옹호 및 WP:투덜거림과 WP:시민적 포브스가 밀고 있다.넌 그 모든 것들을 해왔잖아.Drmies는 당신이 이것을 볼 수 있는 자기감시를 할 수 있다는 희망과 그것을 본 후에 당신이 그것을 고칠 수 있을지도 모른다는 희망을 가지고 있다.지금까지 당신은 문제를 보지 않고, 또한 그 문제를 인정하지 않고 있으며, 나는 내가 내 OP에 있는 어떤 것과도 연결하지 않았다는 것을 알고 있다. 그래서 나는 그들을 여기서 제공했다.읽고 반성하고, 사람들이 여기에 쓴 글을 다시 읽고, 여기에 다시 답장해줘.고마워요.Jytdog (대화) 17:45, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 알레프에게 : 내가 페트로비치를 꺼낸 사람이 절대 아니라는 점을 고려해 볼 때, 위로 스크롤해 줄 것을 요청한다.나는 대답하기 전에 페트로비치가 이 논의와는 전혀 관계가 없다고 말 그대로 말했다.다시 말하지만, 나는 이것을 꺼내지 않았다.나는 이미 POV가 추진하는 것을 인정했다.날짜와 시간을 찾는 데 도움이 되는 일을 거치지 않아도 되지만, 이것은 분명히 Korvex(토크 · 기여)였다. 히지리 88 (聖聖) 06:22, 2017년 3월 18일 (UTC)[
제안된 사이트 금지
- Talk에서 Korvex와 내가 주고받은 대화를 바탕으로 볼 때:엑소더스와 여기서도 나는 무기한 부지 금지를 제안하고 지지해야 할 것이다.Korvex는 반복적으로 사실의 진술을 하는데, 그것은 반증할 만한 사소한 사실이고, 그들의 대부분의 주장에 대한 출처를 제공하려고 하지 않으며, 일반적으로 그들이 그렇게 할 때 좋지 않은 출처를 제공하고, 그들이 사용하는 몇 안 되는 허용 가능한 출처를 잘못 해석하고, 과장되게 그들의 논평을 지연시키고, 계속해서 어떤 사실이나 모든 것에 대해 나쁜 신념을 비난한다.ho는 그들의 의견에 반대하다그러한 문제들은 한 특정한 주제에서 가장 명백할 수 있지만, 그것들은 그들이 작업하는 어떤 기사에도 영향을 미칠 수 있는 잠재력을 지닌 문제들이다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:05, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- 이것을 좀 더 살펴본 후에 나는 사이트 금지가 매우 넓은 TBAN도 지지하겠지만 필요한 것이라는 위의 MP의 의견에 동의해야 한다.Ai 페이지에서 Korvex는 BRD나 컨센서스에 대해 전혀 이해하지 못하고, 편집에 동의하지 않아 어떻게 해서든 생각하고, 그것을 토크 페이지로 가져왔는데, 그것이 어떻게 해서든 컨센서스에 반하여 반복적으로 되돌아가도록 하는 위임을 주었다.이 토크 페이지와 위의 응답은 또한 RS가 무엇인지 전혀 파악하지 못하고 OR과 SYNSTH에 지속적으로 의존한다는 것을 보여준다.위의 Drmies에 대한 반응에서 단지 무엇이 학자적 RS를 구성하는가에 대한 이해의 완전한 부족이 있다.페트로비치는 그의 책을 출판하기 위해 킥스타터 캠페인에 의지해야 했고 출판업자들은 어떤 형태나 형식도 학구적인 동료 평가를 하지 않는다.OR이 어디선가 그것에 대한 토론을 읽는 것은 무의미하다.그런 다음 코벡스는 ASOR 연차총회용 프로그램으로 링크하는데, ASOR가 실제 발행하는 잡지 중 어느 것이 아니라 프로그램이다.ASOR 연차총회에서 발표(수백 명 중)를 하는 것은 발표자에게 신뢰성을 제공하지 않거나 그들의 의견이 학구적인 합의를 대표한다는 것을 나타낸다.(BTW를 뒷받침할 출처가 없는) 학자들을 밀어내는 다른 프린지들이 프린지 관점을 지원하도록 하는 것도 신뢰도를 결코 방해하지 않는다.페트로비치는 국제창조과학부의 웹사이트에 성서의 불성실성의 증거를 주장하는 기사를 가지고 있다.그의 견해는 극히 변덕스럽다.Korvex는 그것이 나에게 그들이 WP 소싱 요구사항을 모두 이해할 것이라는 희망을 주지 않는다.카포 (토크) 19:36, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 지원 사이트 금지 - 여러 과목을 다루더라도 충분하다면 주제 금지라고는 생각하지 않는다.나의 관찰은 이 편집자가 위키피디아가 요구하는 방식으로 편집하는 것이 불가능해 보이고, 그가 어떤 주제로 나아가든지 그렇게 할 것이라는 것이다.많은 프린지스터들과 POV-퍼셔들에게 그렇듯이, 그의 문제는 그의 사고방식에 있으며, 어떤 주제 금지도 그것을 바꾸지는 않을 것이다.클로져의 이익을 위해, 사이트 금지가 합의된 선택이 아닌 경우, 여기에 언급된 모든 주제에 대한 주제 금지에 대한 지원을 포함하는 사이트 금지에 대한 나의 지지는 고려되어야 한다.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 21:26, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[
- 지원 사이트 금지 주로 이 스레드의 행동에 기초한다.다른 위키피디아 사람들이 이 혹은 저 학자가 비주류적인 견해를 가지고 있다고 지적한 것에 대해 "인신공격"이라고 비난하라.나는 또한 만약 그가 다시 와서 사이트 금지를 호소하고 싶다면, 그는 여전히 주제 금지의 대상이 되어야 한다고 생각하는데, 그러니 두 가지 모두에 대한 나를 따로 지지한다고 생각해.거짓되고 반복적으로 주장하는 모든 사용자들을 이렇게 쉽게 처리할 수 있을까.
사실 나
의 모든주장은 참고인들의 지지를 받아왔다.
ANI에서나는 어떤 주제들은 소위 성서 고고학만큼 섹시하지 않다고 생각한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:01, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[ - 지원 사이트 금지 - 추가 논의를 본 후 원래 주제 금지 지원에서 이 항목으로 이동 - 이는 주제 금지와 함께 포함되어야 한다.그는 남들이 뭐라고 하든 계속해서 다른 편집자들을 무시하고 같은 주장을 되풀이하고 있으며, 위에서 다른 사람들이 말했듯이 이러한 행동은 그가 편집자로 남아 있으면 단순히 다른 분야로 확산될 뿐이다.더그 웰러, 2017년 3월 17일 14시 15분 대화 (UTC)[
- TBAN이나 사이트 반칙에 대한 강력한 지원=백과사전을 짓기 위해 온 것이 아니라 진실을 위해 싸우기 위해 온 것이 분명하고 노골적인 POV 푸셔다.이와 같은 편집자들은 인내심을 뼈저리게 발휘하여 생산성이 높은 다른 사람들을 쫓아낸다. 이러한 분야에서 그러한 편집자들이 얼마나 오랫동안 용인되는지는 말도 안 된다. 실제 학자들이 그러한 시간적 고리를 계속해서 다루기를 원하는 WP에 시간을 보내지 않는 것은 당연하다.스메트75 (대화) 14:18, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 지원 사이트 금지 - 이전에 TBAN 지지에 언급했던 이유.당시에는 사이트 금지가 선택사항인 줄 몰랐기 때문에 TBAN을 지지했다.코벡스의 역사와 이곳의 그의 행동 때문에 사이트 금지가 훨씬 더 나은 선택이 될 것이라고 생각하는데, 우리가 지금까지 고씨로부터 보아온 것 같은 끝없는 논의에 곱한 단락당 반나절의 오보/인신공격들을 반복적으로 정리하지 않고 다시 백과사전을 만드는 데 집중할 수 있게 해 주는 것이다.rvex. Alephb (대화) 15:55, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 나는 Jytdog (대화) 18:17, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[]에 반대하지 않는다
- 지원 사이트 금지는 주로 Korvex가 출처가 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 간주되기 위해 필요한 것을 이해할 수 없다는 점에 기초한다.예를 들어, 2월 초 이 토론에서 "peer 리뷰"가 무엇인지 그리고 그렇지 않은지에 대해 설명했지만, Korvex는 이전 토론에서 결함이 있는 것으로 보여진 것과 동일한 전제 하에 "peer 리뷰"에 대한 자신의 정의를 근거로 "페트로비치 (페트로비치)의 책이 동료 리뷰로 검토되었다는 것을 증명했다"고 주장한다.나는 Korvex가 검증가능성과 합의 논의와 같은 다소 중심적인 개념에 대해 듣기 싫어하고, 예의범절은 말할 것도 없고 - 그리고 그것은 주제 금지에 의해 쉽게 제한될 수 있는 것이 아니라는 생각을 하지 않을 수 없다.나는 코벡스를 만난 적이 없지만, 이전 토론, 특히 지난 몇 달 동안의 토론들을 다시 읽어보는 데 시간을 할애했다. 그래서 내 의견은 그것에 근거한다. --보나데아 기고 토크 23:01, 2017년 3월 18일 (UTC)[
Nergaal 편집 중
| 상황은 WP에서 처리되었다.NEWITE; 기사가 보호되었다.당분간은 더 이상 할 일이 없다.중립성talk 04:04, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
사용자 네르가알은 아티켈 문화 인종 차별주의에서 전쟁을 편집하고 있다.그의 주장은 정치적이고 그의 목표는 기사를 삭제하는 것이다.그는 또한 2012년부터 AfD에 따라 행동하고 있다고 말한다.이 글은 2년 전 만들어졌으며 빠른 삭제에 나섰지만 이를 실천한 관리인은 "속삭제가 줄었다. 이는 sv-wp에서 번역된 것으로, 앞서 AfD(CSDH)에서 삭제한 기사와는 다르다.
나는 그 기사에 대해 사용자와 정치적 논의를 하고 싶지 않지만, 사용자는 그것을 '정치적 올바름'으로, 나를 'PC 경찰'로 지칭한다.Dnm (토크) 00:09, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- Dnm은 대화 페이지에서 제기된 나의 문제들에 대해 답변을 거부했다.내게는 그가 편집한 모든 일에는 분명한 의제가 있는 것 같다.네르가알 (대화) 00:16, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
이제 사용자가 다른 기사에 나를 겨냥하여 아무런 근거도 없이 나를 되돌리기 시작한 것 같다.패러그라프를 삭제한 동기는 토크 페이지에 있지만 그는 단지 나를 되돌리는 것에만 관심이 없는 것 같다.
편집 전쟁 외에도, 그는 토크 페이지에서도 매우 공격적이고 불친절하다.Dnm (토크) 00:21, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 재량적 제재는 무엇에 관한 것인가?El_C 00:36, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
관리자가 적용 중인 대규모 블록:물질과학자
| 그래, 아니야.블랙매인 (대화) 04:16, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
이 관리자는 특정 위반에 대한 적절한 문서조차 없이 종종 상당히 심각한 수백 명의 사용자를 차단하고 있다.이것은 에 재조명될 필요가 있다.
오늘은 벌써 100블록이 넘었다.이것은 내가 관리자들의 동기에 대한 의심의 혜택을 주지 않는다는 비난을 받았기 때문에 삭제되었다.그 동기들과 그가 선의로 행동하고 있는지는 여기서 문제가 되지 않는다.여기서 문제가 되는 것은 적절한 이유나 설명 없이 엄청난 수의 편집자를 차단하는 행동이다.
이것은 긴급한 문제로서 공동체는 이러한 권한 남용을 조사해야 한다.16.84.1.2 (대화) 03:18, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
- 위에서 지적한 바와 같이, 그가 "적절한 설명의 이유 없이" 누군가를 차단한 예를 들 수 있는가?단순히 사용자의 블록 로그 기록을 추가하는 것은 필요한 만큼 충분한 증거를 제공하는 것으로 간주되지 않는다(특히 이와 같은 비난을 할 때).~오슈와~(talk) (contribs) 2017년 3월 21일 03:21 (UTC)[
- @물리학자: 정책당 이 ANI에 대한 통지를 받지 못했으므로 ping을 해 보았다.둘째, IP가 연계한 블록 로그를 보면 IP와 Material에 의해 차단된 사용자가 Bandalism임을 알 수 있다.그래서 나는 재료가 그들의 임무를 수행하고 있다고 말해야 한다.크리스 "워머신윌드Thing" 03:33, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
- 어, IP, 그건 관리자 업무야보아하니 너는 그가 차단한 편집자 중 한 명이다.어느 것이요?WP를 참조하십시오.여기서 불평하는 대신 UNBLOCK.소프트라벤더 (대화) 03:34, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
- 나는 이것에 대해 오슈와와 동의해야 한다.편집 요약의 실제 기간에는 트위터와 같은 시스템 제한이 있으므로 관리자가 블록이 부과되는 이유에 대해 긴 문맥 중심의 설명을 할 수 있는 여지가 많지 않다. 다른 관리자의 블록을 검토할 경우 편집 요약만 응시할 수는 없지만, 차단된 사용자의 편집 내역을 조사하여 차단된 사용자의 편집 내역을 조사할 필요가 있다.그들이 저지당한 것이 차단 가능한 공격이었는지 아닌지에 대해.아니, 관리자의 전체 블록 로그에 연결하는 것만으로는 그렇게 부른다고 해서 불법행위에 대한 명백한 증거가 될 수 없다.문제가 있는 하나 이상의 특정 사건에 대한 세부 사항과 문제가 유효한 이유를 제시해야 한다. Material Scientist의 블록 로그에 기재되어 있기 때문에, 내가 실제로 검토하려고 애쓰던 모든 사례에서 해당 사항이 옳았다.베어캣(토크) 03:40, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
만약 내가 이 글을 정확히 읽고 있다면 IP는 IP로 게시된 것처럼 회피하는 것을 차단하고 있다가 다시 돌아가서 서명을 사용자 이름으로 변경했다.48번 블록에 사용자가 있다크리스 "워머신윌드Thing" 04:01, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
- 워머신윌드뭐, 2016년 이후로 그 계정은 차단되지 않았고, 물질과학자에 의해 차단된 적도 없어.그가 양말 계정이 차단된 것일 수도 있다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 04:07, 2017년 3월 21일 (UTC)[
WP:Fairphone 비판 섹션의 진행 중인 삭제
페어폰 기사의 비판 부분은 서로 다른 합리성(출처 없음, 유효하지 않은 출처, 'bs')으로, 토크 페이지에 사전 논의 없이 수시로 '정리'된다.
예(더 많은)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairphone&oldid=770592483
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairphone&oldid=761885694
누군가 이 단락을 보호하여 사용자가 먼저 대화 페이지에서 토론하도록 강요할 수 있는가?현재 토크 페이지는 꽤 비어 있다.또한 회사가 유지하고 있는 포럼과의 연계가 출처로 활용될 수 있는지 아닌지도 알 수 있으면 좋을 것이다.
프로젝트의 정보 전략에 실망한 사람들과 이념적 이유로 이를 보호하려는 사람들 간의 편집 전쟁이라고 생각한다.중간에 있는 것이 WP에게 좋을 것이다.
감사합니다.
메모/삭제:나의 편집은 변화에도 영향을 받지만, 다른 사람의 변화에도 영향을 받는다.— 92.192.73.113 (대화) 18:18, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[이 서명되지 않은 이전 의견 추가
- 아니, 우리는 이 단락을 보호할 수 없다.그것은 "하고 싶지 않다"가 아니다. 우리의 소프트웨어로는 페이지의 일부만 보호할 수 없다.업무 중단이 충분히 나쁘면(지금 당장 검토할 시간이 없다), 페이지 전체를 보호할 수 있다.나이튼드 (대화) 2017년 3월 17일 18:34 (UTC)[
- 나는 그 포럼 게시물이 믿을만한 출처가 아니라고 말할 것이다.포럼의 불만사항이 눈에 띄면, 독립적이고 신뢰할 수 있는 출판사에서 일하는 누군가가 그에 대해 글을 쓸 것이다.AniMate 18:42, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- (갈등 편집) 포럼 게시물은 출처로 사용할 수 없다.신뢰할 수 있는 출처 지침을 읽어 보십시오. --NeilNtalk to me 18:44, 2017년 3월 17일 (UTC)[
- 모두들 답장 고마워.나는 유효한 출처의 문제를 이해한다.그러나 나는 특히 현재 포럼 밖에서 좋은 기술 자료를 찾기가 어렵다고 생각한다.당신은 초기 리뷰를 찾지만, 장기간의 이슈를 보여주기 위해 필요한 보도는 거의 없다.페어폰은 그들의 블로그에 포럼의 문제점 몇 가지를 언급하고 있다.현재 Fairphone 1은 교체 가능한 부품이 없고, 심하게 구식 소프트웨어와 USB 포트의 알려진 설계 문제가 없다.중고 FP1을 살 사람들은 이 정보를 빨리 찾지 못할 것이다.그러나 공식 포럼에서 복수의 사용자 보고서를 소스로 사용하는 것이 WPs 규칙에 어긋난다면, 나는 그들 자신의 블로그 게시물을 소스로 추가하겠다.문제는 좋은 원천으로 사용하는 것이 거의 불가능하게 만드는 방식으로 프레임을 씌운다는 것이다.
2017년 3월 6일(UTC) 10:40(UTC)에서 IPv4 사용자 203.248.117.231이 레인보우 루비 기사를 파손했다.[11]과 KISA 후이스에 따르면 그 IP 주소는 CJ E&M(Rainbow Ruby를 공동제작한 CJ E&M)과 함께 CJ그룹의 자회사 CJ시스템에 배정된다.
마찬가지로, 같은 날 9시 17분(UTC)에는 달빛27이라는 한국 위키백과 등록 사용자가 같은 프로그램에 관한 기사를 수정하여 CJ E&M과 38°C만을 제작사로 특집하도록 하였다.만약 사용자가 CJ 그룹 회사들 중 하나에서 일하고 있다면, 이것은 위키피디아 규정을 심각하게 위반한 것이다.
CJ의 누군가가 비신사적인 방법으로 편집하면 된다는 것이다.따라서 CJ그룹, 지주회사 CJ 등 관련 기업에 배정된 IP주소에 있는 사람은 누구나 자신과 제품에 관련된 기사를 편집하는 것을 차단해야 한다.새 사용자로 등록하는 것은 물론, 해당 주소에서 로그인한 사용자와 같은 문서를 편집하는 것도 차단해야 한다.우리는 그들이 IP 주소 밖에서 편집하거나 심지어 VPN을 사용하는 것을 막지 못할 수도 있지만, 우리는 그들에게 무언가를 보여줘야 한다.
P.S. 나는 그 사용자가 그 시리즈에 대해 적극적으로 찬성하는 글을 쓰고 있었다면 이해할 수 있을 텐데, 왜 그 사용자가 대신 기사를 훼손했을까?JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail07:31, 2017년 3월 18일 (UTC)[
- 아마도 일어나지 않을 것이다. 본질적으로, 이것은 미신고 COI 편집에 대한 불만이다."비신사적인 태도"는 무관하다. 왜냐하면 비신사적인 태도는 TBAN 누군가를 사전에 예방하기에 충분치 않을 것이기 때문이다. 그 중 한 사람이 무례하게 행동한 사람은 말할 것도 없고.레인보우 루비 SPA가 여럿 나타나서 영어 위키피디아에 방해적으로 편집을 시작한다면, 말하자면 페이지에 무기한 확증된 보호를 부과하는 것이 가치가 있을지도 모르지만, 현재로서는 그런 증거를 볼 수 없다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:46, 2017년 3월 18일 (UTC)[
편집한 내용을 정당하게 되돌리는 것
| (관리자 이외의 폐쇄)이것은 분명히 콘텐츠 분쟁이고 기사 토크 페이지에서 다루어야 하며, 더 나은 것은 위키프로젝트 스타 트렉의 토크 페이지와 같은 중앙집중화된 장소에서 다루어야 한다.비욘드 마이 켄 (토크) 04:31, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 몇몇 스타트랙 등장인물들의 기사에 풀네임을 추가하고 있다.
- 크리스토퍼 파이크 (스타 트렉) - 크리스토퍼 리처드 파이크
- 히카루 술루 - 가토 술루 히카루
- 조나단 아처 - 조나단 베켓 아처
- 캐서린 제인웨이 - 캐서린 M. 제인웨이
- 레너드 맥코이 - 닥터 레너드 호라시오 맥코이
- 로버트 에이프릴 - 로버트 티모시 에이프릴
- 사렉 - 스첸 티개 사렉
- 스팍 - 스친 티개 스팍
- 윌리엄 라이커 - 윌리엄 토마스 테로니우스 라이커
내가 이 이름들을 덧붙이려고 할 때마다, 대부분은 계속 되돌아갔다.처음에 Material Scientist는 내 인용구가 불완전하다고 했지만, 인용구에 챕터 번호와 페이지 번호를 추가한 후, 어쨌든 다른 사용자들에 의해 되돌아갔다.
티토두타는 나에게 "내가 변화를 주기 전에 기사가 더 나았다"고 생각한다고 말했는데, 이는 타당한 이유가 아니다.나중에 그는 내 편집이 '불분명하다'고 했고 '검증할 수 없다'고 했는데, 이 정보는 구글북스 검색을 통해 쉽게 확인할 수 있어 말이 안 된다.
K 박사와 SonOfThornhill은 나에게 이 정보는 비캐논이므로 기사의 리드 섹션에 속하지 않는다고 말했다.그들의 주장을 뒷받침하는 정책을 보여 달라고 했을 때, 나는 무시당했다.위키피디아를 확인해봤는데:믿을 만한 출처를 찾아내고 캐논이라는 단어를 전혀 언급하지 않으니, 내 변화가 되돌릴 이유가 없다.
위키백과 정책과 일치하므로 이러한 편집을 허용해 줄 것을 요청한다. --NetSpiker (대화) 00:55, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
참조
- ^ 캐리, 다이앤최종 프론티어.포켓북스, 1988, 희망과 공동의 미래
- ^ 애셔먼, 앨런스타트랙 2번에서 누가 누구야.DC 코믹스, 1987, 페이지 33
- ^ 마틴, 마이클A, '랩터 날개 아래'포켓북, 2009년, 페이지 168
- ^ 그래프, LA 관리인포켓북스, 1995, 19장
- ^ 조지, 데이비드R, III 그림자 증명포켓북, 2006, 532페이지
- ^ 콕스, 그렉대위님 대위님.포켓북스, 2016, 페이지 209
- ^ 햄블리, 바바라.이스마엘.포켓북스, 1985, 19장
- ^ 햄블리, 바바라.이스마엘.포켓북스, 1985, 19장
- ^ 데이비드, 피터.Q-제곱.포켓북스, 1994, 라스트 스톱: 4장
- 이 소설들은 스타 트렉에서 캐논으로 여겨진 적이 없다; 다른 작가들은 등장인물에 대해 다른 중간/기타 이름을 사용할 수도 있다.필자의 견해로는 기사들은 확실히 다른 소설에서 주어진 인물들의 이름을 언급할 수 있지만, 그 소설들은 TV에서 쓰여진 인물들에 바탕을 두고 있기 때문에, 캐논에서 주어진 이름들이 우선되어야 한다고 생각한다. 331닷 (토크) 01:30, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC]
- 이것은 내용상의 논쟁이다.이건 여기선 안 돼~ GB팬 01:39, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
@331dot:만약 작가들이 다른 이름을 준다면, "클라이드 도노반 (원래 클라이드 굿맨과 잠시 클라이드 해리스)"이라는 사우스 파크 초등학교의 학생 명부에 이미 쓰여진 것처럼 두 이름 모두 첫 문장에 기재되어야 한다.스타트랙 캐논에서도 디애나 트로이의 아버지는 한 회에서 이안 앤드루 트로이로 불렸고 다른 회에서는 알렉스 트로이로 불렸다.게다가, 위키피디아는 캐논 정책을 가지고 있지 않기 때문에 무엇이 캐논인지 아닌지는 중요하지 않다.소설과 TV 에피소드는 똑같이 유효하다.
@GB 팬: 나는 이 토론이 어디에 속하는지 확신할 수 없었다.다른 사용자가 여기로 오라고 권했다.다른 곳에 있으면 이식해 주시겠습니까? --NetSpiker (대화) 01:50, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
엔데르카아제
| (관리자 이외의 폐쇄)제재에 대한 실질적인 합의는 없고, 엔데르카세는 그들이 어떤 혼란을 야기시켰는지에 대한 책임을 받아들였고, 그들은 필요한 멘토링을 받고 있다.이것을 계속하면 얻을 것이 없다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC) |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
이 사용자는 분명히 WP:나는 솔직히 어떻게 해야 할지 모르겠어.
이 계좌는 오래되었지만, 그들은 2013년 이전으로 거슬러 올라갔으며, 약 두 달 전에 돌아왔다.그들은 트위터 계정이 비밀에 부쳐져서 위키피디아에 와서 Breitbart.com에 있는 내용을 토대로 그 주제에 대해 글을 쓰는 것에 화가 났을 가능성이 꽤 있어 보인다.이들은 지난 몇 주 동안 기본적으로 Breitbart.com과 다른 우파 가짜뉴스 사이트들이 사실적 주장을 위한 유일한 출처로 허용되어야 하는지에 대해 싸우고 RSN, NPOVN 및 짐보의 토크 페이지와 동일한 분쟁을 토론하는데 시간을 보냈다([12] 참조, 사용자:JzG 및 사용자: pinginginging:오직 죽음 속에만 있다.포럼 쇼핑이 잘 되지 않는다고 말했을 때, 그들은 같은 게시판의 관련 없는 여러 개의 스레드에 파괴적인 비코멘트를 게시한다(디프할 필요 없음, 사용자 이름 Ctrl+F는 해당 게시판에 게시된 게시판에 표시되며, 이는 매우 명백하다, 또는 현재 라이브 버전의 RSN에 Ctrl+F "bold"만 표시).
다른 사람들이 동의하지 않을 때, 그들은 이 이상하고 비꼬는 듯한 공격을 그들에게 게시하기 시작한다. (내가 직접 그것을 본 적이 있다[13][14]) 그리고 또한 사용자:MjolnirPants.[15])
적어도 'RSN'이나 어쩌면 '우파 뉴스 미디어'의 TBAN이 순서대로 되어 있다고 생각하고 있지만, 이 시점에서 사용자는 사실상 차단되기를 애원하고 있다.
히지리 88 (聖や) 00:13, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- 우리는 이제 Endercase가 실행한 파괴적인 일들의 목록에 탐색을 추가할 수 있다.[16][17][18][19] 나는 문자 그대로 아래 DT에 대한 나의 전체 응답을 적어 두었다가 무작위 편집자가 이 실을 보고 그가 하는 방식으로 선의로 응답한 것이 정말 이상하다는 생각이 들었다.나는 그의 토크 페이지를 확인하고 Endercase가 그에게 선거운동을 했다는 것을 발견했는데, 분명히 그가 그들에게 "동의한다" "금지되는 것을 원하지 않는다"라고 말하는 극소수의 사람들 중 한 명이기 때문이다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 06:25, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 이 숨겨진 코멘트는 "내가 한 일에 대해 왜 핑계를 댔는지 명확히 하라, 내가 나쁜 믿음과 위선적인 운동을 했다고 비난하는 몇몇 사람들을 완전히 볼 수 있기 때문이다"라고 편집된 메모와 함께 적어주십시오.
- 엔데르카세가 유세를 한다면, 편집자 대부분이 자신을 변호하러 온 것이 아니기 때문에 틀림없이 나쁜 일을 하고 있는 것이다.규칙을 모르고 왜 이렇게 곤경에 처해 있는지 모르는 신규 사용자의 도움을 요청하는 외침처럼 보인다.새로운 사용자에게는 확실히 정직해 보인다.멘토링에 대해 묻자 그는 "멘토가 필요하다는 데 동의한다"고 답했다.[20] --David Tornheim (토크) 07:35, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- @David Tornheim:누군가가 공공 기록에 남기는 대신 실이 막히지 않도록 어떤 점에 대한 보이지 않는 설명을 덧붙일 때, 그것은 다른 사람이 왔을 때 그 목적을 무시하고 그것보다 더 긴 응답을 덧붙이며, 그것의 편집 요약을 전부 인용한다.나는 아직 나타나지 않은 탐방 편집자 한 명만 세고 있다. 즉, 그가 자신과 의견이 다른 사용자 한 명을 탐방해서 야행성인 Northynow를 따라 탐방했기 때문에 탐방이 아니었다는 말인가?그것은 한쪽에 있는 편집자들과 불균형하게 접촉하면서, 마치 한 사람이 투표에 참여하지 않는 것처럼 보이려는 의도적인 시도인 것 같다.또한, 아래에 인용했을 때, 당신이 제시한 인용문은 즉시 그를 반대하는 사용자들을 "Cabal"이라고 부르는 배틀그라운드 사고방식에 대한 명확한 진술이 뒤따랐다: 만약 당신이 Endercase를 멘토링할 의도라면, 당신은 개선이 필요한 파괴적인 행동을 경시/무시/거부하는 것을 중단해야 한다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 13:56, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 네가 제공한 diff/link에서 내가 본 유일한 것은 RSN의 페이지반이 순서대로 되어 있을 것이라는 것이다.그는 그곳의 물건을 독점하고 있는 것 같고 별로 도움이 되지 않는 것 같다.당신이 구체적인 차이점을 제시하지 않는 한 나는 아직 다른 실행 가능한 것을 볼 수 없다.만약 그가 기사에 대한 편집-경쟁이 있다면(예: 스텔스 금지) WP에 보고한다.NEW. 소프트라벤더 (대화) 04:48, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- @소프트라벤더: 문제의 중요한 부분이 포럼 쇼핑이라는 점을 감안하면, 좁은 페이지 금지가 어떻게 문제를 해결할 수 있을지는 모르겠다.내가 TBAN이라고 한 이유는, 그가 NPOVN이나 짐보의 토크 페이지에 분명히 RSN에 속해 있는 무언가를 올리면, 그는 여전히 TBAN의 대상이라면 차단될 수 있지만, 음, 만약 그가 PBAN의 대상이라면, 우리는 그가 PBAN을 밀고 있다고 말할 수 있지만, 그것은 여전히 불필요해 보이기 때문이다.그는 또한 정말로 여기에 있는 것처럼 보이지 않는다. 다시 말하지만, 그가 돌아온 이후 그가 한 일은 Breitbart.com을 둘러싼 싸움뿐이다.스텔스 금지, 그의 모든 게시물은 본질적으로 그가 Breitbart와 InfoWars에서 읽은 자료를 삽입할 것을 주장하거나, 그가 그것들을 직접 인용할 수 없는 것에 대해 불평하는 것뿐이다. 이 (아래 부분)은 특히 터무니없는 예다.)히지리 88 (聖や) 06:03, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- 그렇긴 한데, 이 차이점을 보셨나요?아니면 이거?이런 종류의 발언은 적절하지 않고, 거의 비정형적이지 않다.히지리 88 (聖や) 06:07, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- 나는 네가 제공한 세 개의 차이점과 두 개의 링크를 살펴봤어.그 논평은 RSN (과한 게시, 과도한 반복, 그리고 독특한 해석)을 제외하고 꽤 표준적인 것 같다.다른 증거를 제시하지 않으셨습니다.ANI에 대한 주장을 펴기 위해서는 프로브 디퓨전(probecause of ANI, probably diffs.소프트라벤더 (대화) 06:26, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- 나는 아직 충분하다고 생각하지 않는다.하지만 나 또한 시간문제라고 생각한다.일반적으로 그들의 게시판은 사람들이 동의하지 않을 때 재빨리 비눗방울로 옮겨 붙는다.정말로 일어나야 하는 것은 그들이 목표물을 벗어나기 전에, 자유 편집자가 그들의 스레드를 빨리 닫아야 한다는 것이다.RSN/NPOV 게시판은 기사와 관련된 특정 문제에 대해 구체적인 질문을 하기 위한 것이지, 정책에 대한 독특한 해석을 사람들에게 납득시키려 하는 것이 아니다.그들이 짐보의 페이지에 비누칠을 하고 싶다면, 그건 다르다.그들은 그곳에 있는 다른 모든 사람들과 함께 할 수 있다.또는 관리자가 정책을 논의하고 싶으면 게시판 대신 정책 대화 페이지에서 논의하도록 5분 정도 걸릴 수 있다.오직 죽음에서만 의무가 종료된다(토크) 08:58, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[하라
- 나는 네가 제공한 세 개의 차이점과 두 개의 링크를 살펴봤어.그 논평은 RSN (과한 게시, 과도한 반복, 그리고 독특한 해석)을 제외하고 꽤 표준적인 것 같다.다른 증거를 제시하지 않으셨습니다.ANI에 대한 주장을 펴기 위해서는 프로브 디퓨전(probecause of ANI, probably diffs.소프트라벤더 (대화) 06:26, 2017년 3월 10일 (UTC)[
- Endercase는 모든 사람들이 말하는 것을 주의 깊게 읽고 더 잘 어울리고 기여하기 위해 그들의 참여를 조정할 것이라고 생각한다.나는 그들이 기여하기를 원하고 단지 약간의 시간과 경험이 더 필요할 것이라고 확신한다.야행성 now (대화) 02:49, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 엔데르카세는 거짓과 속임수의 변명의 원천을 옹호함으로써 시간과 에너지의 낭비만을 성취하고 있다.사람들이 이것을 지적하면, 그들은 위키-변호사를 하고 징징댄다.NOTHERE 냄새가 나는 것 같아. --Orange Mike Talk 03:01, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- No Action Endercase는 매우 새로운 사용자로, 더 큰 문제는 고발자(Hijiri88)가 WP와 같은 부당한 비난으로 선의의 행동을 취하지 못했다는 점이다.NOTHERE, WP:SPA, 그리고 새로운 편집자는 "당신이 당신의 트위터 계정이 비밀리에 금지된 것에 화가 나서 위키피디아를 편집하고 있다"고 제안한다.히지리88은 복수의 계정을 사용하고 있는지 여부를 심문한다[21][22].(전체 토의를 참조하십시오.)히지리88은 또한 새로운 편집자가 "Breitbart가 특정 상황에서 신뢰할 수 있다고 사용자에게 간접적으로 말하게 하려는 잘못된 시도"라고 비난한다.[23] 어떤 것이든 문제는 고발인이다.아마도 히리지88 -> 엔데르카세스의 아이반이 순서대로 되어 있을 것이다.
- 나는 최근에 WP에서 Endercase를 만났다.RS/N 입니다.내게 편집자는 새롭고 우리가 사는 많은 규칙들을 이해하지 못하는 것이 분명했다. "규칙이 없다"와 같은 규칙들을 무시하는 것 같은 것들을 예로 들면서.인정하건대, 그렇게 친절하지 않은 다른 사람들과는 달리 내가 존경심을 가지고 대했을 때 그는 약간 방어적이 되었지만 냉정해졌다.WP의 이유는 없다.이렇게 새로운 사용자들을 물어봐.
- 나는 위키프로젝트 편집자 보존에 이 문제에 대해 썼다.사실 이 특별한 사건은 내가 쓰면서 마음에 걸렸다.
- Endercase는 내 토크 페이지에서 나에게 연락했다. --David Tornheim (토크) 05:56, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
스스로 무너지다.이 긴 응답은 나(히지리88)가 AGF를 극단으로 받아들이는 경향이 있기 때문에 쓰여진 것이고, 그것을 쓰고 나서야 비로소 데이브가 탐문수사를 받았을지도 모른다는 생각이 들었다. |
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- ^이것은 내가 말한 것을 보강하는 것 같기 때문에 읽을 가치가 있다. --David Tornheim (토크) 07:48, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 업데이트: 위의 "No Action"을 썼기 때문에, 나는 Endercase에게 멘토를 구하라고 제안했다.그의 대답은 "나는 멘토가 필요하다는 것에 동의한다."[26].Endercase get a mentor and Hijiri88(그리고 우리 모두 경험 많은 편집자)은 친절하고 새로운 이용자들에게 덜 비난적이 되도록 권고하는 것으로 이 일을 마무리해도 괜찮을 것이다. --David Turnheim (토크) 07:48, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- @David Tornheim:당신이 그 긴 코멘트를 읽은 것은 다소 낙관적이다: 당신이 인용한 부분은 바로
내
가 매우활동적인 사용자들
의 카발을화나게
한것으로 보인다
.아무튼 정해진 기간(3개월? 6개월)에 대해 어떻게 생각하시는지요?1년?)TBAN on 우파 뉴스 미디어 및/또는 RSN이 동일한 기간 동안 멘토링과 결합되어 해당 설정 기간 완료에 대한 검토 대상?당신이 말한 것처럼, 이것이 NOTHERE 케이스가 아니라면, 그러한 종류의 해결책이 효과적이면 당신의 케이스를 증명할 수 있는 꽤 확실한 방법이 될 것이다.반대로, 여기에 있고 그들의 활동이 혼란을 일으켰다고 인식하는 사람이라면, 기대할 만한 확실한 종료일이 있는 그런 좁은 제한을 받아들이지 않을 이유가 없을 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 08:28, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[- @Hijiri88: 나는 당신의 제안된 치료법에 대한 회신을 위해 시간을 좀 보냈다(그리고 이 전체 논의에 대해 약간 경고한다).나는 그가 방해하지 않았다고 생각하지 않는다. 그래서 그는 tban으로 처벌되어서는 안 된다.나는 그가 무엇이 괜찮은지 아닌지에 대해 새롭고 *공론적*이라고 생각하며, 그가 옳다고 믿고 자신의 주장을 펼친다.
- 그는 아마도 여기 미국에 있는 트럼프 지지자들의 상당 부분처럼 위키백과 편집자들이 왜 Breitbart나 InfoWars를 좋은 WP로 생각하지 않는지 이해할 수 없을 것이다.RS. 그것을 확립하는 어떤 합의점이 있다는 것을 그에게 분명히 하는 것이 우리의 일이다.다른 편집자가 Breitbart가 좋지 않다고 말했을 때, 그들은 그것에 대한 증거를 제공하지 않았고, 그래서 Endercase는 우리가 정말로 특정 소스(특히 그가 좋다고 생각하는 소스)를 금지하는지 여부를 질문하기 위해 RS/N으로 갔다.그의 반응은 나에게 완벽히 일리가 있다. 정확히 말하자면, 새로운 사용자가 무엇을 할 것인가, 여기서 어떻게 돌아가는지 이해하지 못하는 사람.분명히 그는 데일리 메일의 금지에 대해 알지 못했다.나는 이 문제가 계속 발생할 것이라고 믿으며, 우리는 Breitbart (그리고 InfoWars)가 일반적으로 좋지 않다는 것을 지적하기 위해 RfC나 비슷한 것이 필요하다.RS. 그러한 RfC가 열리면 찬성표를 던질 것이다.어쩌면 내가 직접 만들지도 몰라.
- 소싱보다 비슷한 행동을 본 적이 있다.토크:Breitbart_News#Fake_News_being_passed_off_as_source.
- 치료 방법:멘토링은 괜찮고, 아마도 좋은 WP처럼 특정 소스를 발전시키지 않는 것에 대한 경고일 것이다.RS. 만약 그가 브릿바트와 인포워스의 진보를 중단한다면, 나는 당신의 주된 문제가 사라질 것이라고 믿는다.나는 그가 마지못해 응할 수도 있다고 생각한다.자발적으로 할 것인지 물어볼 수도 있다. --David Tornheim (대화) 11시 12분, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 난
그가 방해했다고 생각
하지 않아. 단지 네가 그가 초래한 모든 방해들을 무시하기로 선택했기 때문이야.나는 그가 무엇이 괜찮은지 아닌지에 대해 새롭고 *공백되어
있다고생각한다. 그리고 그가 옳다고 믿고 그의 주장
을 펼친다. 그러나 당신은 우리가 그것에 어떻게 대처해야 한다고 제안하는가?그를 조언해 주겠다고 제안하는 거야?만약 그렇다면: 당신은 그가 이미 혼란을 겪었다고 생각하지 않는다고 말하는데, 어떻게 당신의 멘토링이 더 이상의 혼란을 막을 수 있을까?그래서 RfC 같은
게필요
해 아마.하지만 엔데르카세는 새로운 "공식 금지"를 할 때마다 어딘가에 등재되어야 한다고 계속해서 불평하지 않을까?만약 그가 브릿바트와 인포워스의 진보를 중단한다면, 나는 당신의 주된 문제가 사라질 것이라고 믿는다.
사실, 나의 주된 이슈는 불친절함이다. (내가 위의 논평에서 말했듯이 내가 왜 MP를 ping했는지 설명해준다.)나는 Breitbart로부터 세상에 대한 정보를 얻지만 그것을 위키피디아에 직접 인용하는 것보다 더 잘 아는 편집자들은 Endercase와 같은 덜 재치 있는 사용자들만큼 프로젝트의 무결성에 위험하다고 생각하지만, 그들은 분명히 근절하기가 매우 어렵다.사실 그들이 어디에서 의견을 얻었는지는 중요하지 않다: 출처를 읽고 출처에서 보는 것을 쓰기보다는 기사에 의견을 덧붙여서 소급해서 출처를 찾는 편집자는 문제가 있다. (니시다니나 컬리 터키에 그런 것에 대한 내 기억에서 가장 나쁜 예를 물어본다 -- 자세히 말하고 싶지 않다.)Endercase는 실제로 당신이나 다른 멘토가 Breitbart를 인용하는 것은 불가능하다는 것을 그에게 이해시킬 수 있다고 해도, 그는 그저 그런 편집자 중 한 명이 될 것이라는 징후를 보여 왔다.그리고 내가 백과사전에 대해 다소 비관적이기 때문에, 나는 그것이 많은 경우에 우리가 바랄 수 있는 최선이라고 생각한다.내용적으로.하지만 그는 여전히 비아냥거릴 필요가 있을거야 ABF, 탐문수사...그리고 자기가 이런 일을 해왔다는 것을 깨닫지 못하는 사람은 하지 말라고 가르칠 자격이 없다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 12:44, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 난
- @David Tornheim:당신이 그 긴 코멘트를 읽은 것은 다소 낙관적이다: 당신이 인용한 부분은 바로
- 공지사항 : 여기 위키프로젝트 편집자 보유 토크페이지에서 이 AN/I를 참조한다.--David Tornheim (토크) 07:12, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 참고: 나는 실제로 Endercase가 새롭거나 경험이 없는 사용자라고 생각하지 않으며, 그렇다고 우리가 그들을 그렇게 취급해야 한다고 생각하지 않는다.신규 사용자나 경험이 부족한 사용자들은 RSN 프로페셔닝 조언에 구애받지 않으며 위키백과를 인용하지도 않는다.삭제된 페이지 보기 및 복원 [27]히지리가 자신의 OP에서 주장들을 입증하는 차이점을 제시하지 않음으로써 사건을 만들지 못했기 때문에, 여기서 적절한 조치가 무엇인지 모르겠다. (이런 일이 처음 일어난 것이 아니라, 그로 인해 많은 공동체 시간을 낭비하게 된다.)나는 Endercase가 최소한 아주 짧은 끈으로 묶여 있어야 하고, RSN에서 금지되어야 하며 아마도 일반적으로 신뢰할 수 있는 소스 논의에서 금지되어야 한다고 생각한다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 07:58, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
아니, 사실 OP 코멘트에 디프 형식으로 더 많은 증거를 제시하지 않은 게 후회돼그것이 실제로 필요하거나 적절했다는 것은 아니다.내가 이 거대한 것을 막을 수 있었다는 것! 크리피, 위키리듬이 어떤 종류의 증거가 더 바람직한지에 대해 얼버무리고 있었다.이제 아무도 신경 쓰지 않는다.모든 사람들이 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 볼 수 있다.내가 앞에서 제시한 증거로는 충분했다고 생각한다.다른 사람들은 동의하지 않는다.내가 옳든 그르든 간에, 내가 선택한 것이 이 실의 주제에서 이렇게 오랫동안 산만하게 한 것에 대해 사과한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 04:53, 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[ |
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디프가 필요하지 않은 경우를 본 적은 있지만, 히지리88이 주장하는 것이 '파괴'라는 것을 정확히 파악하려고 애쓰지 말고, 서류철에 디프가 더 제공되었다면 그 사건에서 많은 시간이 절약되었을 것이라고 생각한다.항상 Ctrl+F를 사용하지만 "Ctrl+F Bold"가 무슨 뜻인지 이해하지 못했다.그러한 검색의 차이를 제공했다면 시간을 절약할 수 있었을 것이다.히지리88이 여기서 제기된 우려에 귀를 기울이고, 앞으로 이와 같은 것을 고발할 거라면, 제발 디프포와 증거를 제시해 달라는 메시지를 받아 들이기를 바란다. 또한, 어젯밤 나는 소프트라벤더에 제공된 많은 차이점들을 보기 시작했다.그 주장은 "편집 요약이나 그의 논평 텍스트에서 그는 특별히 Breitbart를 명명한다"는 것이었다.그들 중 많은 이들이 Breitbart라는 SERVANE에서 왔다."Breitbart"라는 이름을 붙이는 게 아니라 Breitbart라는 이름을 붙인 코너에 글을 올린 겁니다."여기서 그는 Breitbart를 변호하고 있다"는 단 하나의 링크만 있으면 된다.만약 원본 파일이 Breitbart, InfoWars 또는 WP와 같은 우파 사이트를 옹호하는 "파괴적인" 행동이나 행동에 초점을 맞추었다면 많은 시간을 절약할 수 있었을 것이라고 생각한다.RS. 우파 사이트 진출이 논쟁적 행동보다는 정말로 주된 관심사였다는 것을 이해하는 데 시간이 걸렸다. --David Tornheim (토크) 21:51, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
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- @소프트라벤더:328번 편집한 사용자가 새로운 사용자가 아니라고?[43] 내가 새로운 사용자였을 때, 누군가 나에게 "이 소스를 어디에서도 사용할 수 없다"고 말했다면, 특히 그것이 좋은 출처라고 믿었더라면, 나는 그러한 특정 출처의 금지나 어떤 출처의 금지에 대한 불만을 방송할 수 있는 일반적인 장소를 찾았을 것이다.(기록상으로는 브레이트바트가 믿을 만한 출처라고 생각하지는 않지만, 나는 알고 있다.인포워즈와 Breitbart가 "진짜" 뉴스를 가진 유일한 출처라고 생각하는 사람들.그가 그것을 방송하고 나서 WP에 올린 방식은 다음과 같다.NPOV는 그가 게시판에 게시하는 것이 부적절하다는 것을 몰랐다는 것을 보여준다.그는 분명히 데일리 메일의 금지에 대해서도 몰랐거나 질문을 하지 않았을 것이다.우리는 선의로 행동해야 하기 때문에, 그가 새로운 사용자가 아니라는 주장(또는 복수의 계정을 가지고 있다는 주장)은 약간의 증거를 필요로 한다.나는 그가 새로운 사용자라는 증거를 제시했다.무죄가 입증될 때까지 유죄인가? --David Tornheim (토크) 08:50, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 신규 사용자나 경험이 부족한 사용자들은 RSN 프로페셔닝 조언에 구애받지 않으며 위키백과를 인용하지도 않는다.삭제된 페이지 보기 및 복원[44]. -- 소프트라벤더(대화) 08:54, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
신규
및미숙한 사용자들은 RSN 프로페셔닝 조언에 구애받지 않는다
.물론 그들은 그렇다.2년 전 24시간 동안 6개의 서로 다른 RS/N 섹션에 의견을 제시하면서, 몇 명의 관리자가 기본적으로 나에게 참견하라고 말할 때까지, 나는 허리띠 아래 1,000개 미만의 편집이 있었을 때도 똑같이 했다.나는 위키피디아가 완전히 평등주의적이고 경험에 상관없이 모든 사람들이 어디에서나 논평할 수 있다고 믿으며, 특히 특정 편집자들이 그렇게 많은 장소에서 많은 논평을 하는 것을 보고 약간 충격을 받았다.- WP와 같은 말을 인용하는 것은 새로운 실수다.볼드 및 WP:그가 한 행동은 무시해 버려라. 방해하는 것이 아니라 순진하게.
- 위키백과의 경우:삭제된 페이지를 보고 복원하는 것, 어떻게 알았는지 아는 사람--아마 그는 왜 우리 중 일부가 WP가 불충분했던 하찮은 기사(WER_v_REW)를 삭제하는 것에 대해 말하는지 이해하지 못했기 때문에 검색을 했을 것이다.RS. 우연히 그 기사는 Breitbart, Infowars, alt right 이데올로기와는 아무런 관계가 없다.그는 분명히 포용주의적 접근을 옹호하고 있다.나는 혼란의 증거를 보지 못했다.그는 나와 같은 경험 많은 편집자들이 그와 논쟁을 벌였을 때 다른 사람들과 논쟁했다.그것 역시 이상할 것이 없다.자신이 옳다고 생각하는 새로운 편집자들은 숙련된 편집자들이 그러하듯이 논쟁할 것이다.시작할 때도 그랬어. --David Tornheim (토크) 09:59, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 신규 사용자나 경험이 부족한 사용자들은 RSN 프로페셔닝 조언에 구애받지 않으며 위키백과를 인용하지도 않는다.삭제된 페이지 보기 및 복원[44]. -- 소프트라벤더(대화) 08:54, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- @소프트라벤더:328번 편집한 사용자가 새로운 사용자가 아니라고?[43] 내가 새로운 사용자였을 때, 누군가 나에게 "이 소스를 어디에서도 사용할 수 없다"고 말했다면, 특히 그것이 좋은 출처라고 믿었더라면, 나는 그러한 특정 출처의 금지나 어떤 출처의 금지에 대한 불만을 방송할 수 있는 일반적인 장소를 찾았을 것이다.(기록상으로는 브레이트바트가 믿을 만한 출처라고 생각하지는 않지만, 나는 알고 있다.인포워즈와 Breitbart가 "진짜" 뉴스를 가진 유일한 출처라고 생각하는 사람들.그가 그것을 방송하고 나서 WP에 올린 방식은 다음과 같다.NPOV는 그가 게시판에 게시하는 것이 부적절하다는 것을 몰랐다는 것을 보여준다.그는 분명히 데일리 메일의 금지에 대해서도 몰랐거나 질문을 하지 않았을 것이다.우리는 선의로 행동해야 하기 때문에, 그가 새로운 사용자가 아니라는 주장(또는 복수의 계정을 가지고 있다는 주장)은 약간의 증거를 필요로 한다.나는 그가 새로운 사용자라는 증거를 제시했다.무죄가 입증될 때까지 유죄인가? --David Tornheim (토크) 08:50, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 글쎄, 그가 새롭든 아니든 간에(그리고 나는 그가 그렇다고 믿지 않는다) 그는 내 의견으로 경계선을 긋고 있고, 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것 같지 않고, 다시 들어갈 필요가 있다.나는 대체로 해석되는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처 논의에 대한 주제 금지가 적어도 좋은 출발이 될 것이라고 생각한다.그것은 그에게 게임 플레이를 중단하고 그가 구조적으로 편집할 수 있다는 것을 보여줄 기회를 줄 것이다.그렇지 않다면, 나는 그를 돌보고 싶은 사람이 있는지 확신할 수 없고 만약 그가 성숙하게 행동하지 못한다면, 그는 아마도 위키피디아에서, 말하자면, 다른 곳으로 가고 있을 것이다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 11시 51분, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
허리띠 밑의 편집
이 1,000개
도 안 됐을때도 똑같이 했다
. 그렇게 보는 것도 한 방법이다.또 다른 방법은 위키백과 네임스페이스를 처음 편집하기 전에 몇 년 동안 400개 이상의 편집을 했다는 것이다.하지만, 다시 말하지만, 엔데르카세가 실제로 새로운 편집자인지 아닌지는 내 주장과는 상관이 없다.BITH는 에세이로서 다양한 정책(예: AGF)에 종속되어 있다.일단 한 신입생이 여러 당사자의 친절하고 정중하게 조언을 거절하고 계속해서 두 배로 늘리면, 분명히 Breitbart와 InfoWars는 신뢰할 수 없는 출처가 아니라는 확고한 믿음 때문에, 그들은 더 이상 어린이 장갑으로 다루어서는 안 된다: 고의적이거나 우발적으로 인식하지 못하여 합의를 따르는 것을 거부하는 편집자들.합의는 최소한 건설적으로 기여할 수 있다는 것을 증명할 수 있도록 제한적인 제재를 가하거나 극단적인 경우 블록을 사용하여야 한다.우연히도 그 기사는 Breitbart, Infowars, alt right 이데올로기와는 아무런 관련이 없다.
다시 말해서, 그것은 지금까지 그가 기여한 것 중 극히 일부에 지나지 않는다.그의 메인 스페이스와 토크 편집의 절반 이상이 그가 브릿바트/인포워스 기사를 인용하며 주장하고 있는 두 기사와 관련이 있다.2위는 복귀 직후 그가 짧게 편집한 아리안주의 기사 2건이다.나는 그 편집의 내용을 살펴보지는 않았지만, 우파 이데올로기에 대해 전혀 무관심할 필요가 있을 것이다. (나는 결코 "alt right"라고 말한 적이 없다; Endercase와 나의 첫 상호작용은 기독교 근본주의자, 반LGBT 혐오 단체에 관한 FRC 실이었다.)그 외에는 이 세 개에 가까운 것도 없다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 12:44, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[- FYI 아리아니즘은 아리아니즘 --79.71.0.201 (대화) 14:43, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[]과 무관하다
- @79.71.0.201:알고 있다.내 댓글을 다시 읽어봐.나는 구체적으로 내가 "alt right"나 "nazism"에 대해 말한 것이 아니라고 말했다.보수 기독교인(기독교인 오른쪽)이 '아리안주의'에 동의하지 않는 여러 집단을 자주 결부시키고, 다빈치 코드 기반의 오해와 함께 초기 기독교의 세속적인 장학금을 묶는 것이 대부분 아리안 논란과 니카에 평의회를 중심으로 하기 때문에 아리아교는 우익 정치와 관련된다.a. 그것은 매우 주제넘고 만약 내가 그것을 자세히 올리면 잠재적으로 BLP를 위반할 수 있다. 하지만 내가 생각하고 있는 한 특별한 보수적인 학자가 있다. 하지만 그것은 그에게만 국한된 것은 아니다.'아리안주의'와 '거짓말론'의 주제는 기독교 우파와 매우 쉽게 결부될 수 있다.내가 말했듯이, 나는 Endercase가 주제에 대해 구체적으로 편집한 내용을 보지 않았다. 그래서 나는 편집한 내용을 구체적으로 판단하고 있지 않다. 단지 그가 그 페이지를 편집했다는 사실이 그가 미국 권리에 대한 애견의 주제가 아닌 주제에 긍정적으로 기여해왔다는 것을 지적하는 것은 아니다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 15:57, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- FYI 아리아니즘은 아리아니즘 --79.71.0.201 (대화) 14:43, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[]과 무관하다
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- 그들에게 엄중한 경고를 하고 다윗이 그들을 지도하도록 하라.만약 그들이 다시 여기에 나타난다면, 그들에게 TBAN(또는 어쩌면 방어막)을 때려라.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:42, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- @MjolnirPants:나는 멘토링이 이 문제를 해결할 수 있다는 것에 동의하는 경향이 있지만, 문제를 해결하려는 데이비드의 능력이나 의지에 대해서는 의구심을 갖고 있다.나는 이런 상황에서 데이빗의 멘토링에 대해 심각한 의심을 가지고 있다. 만약 이전처럼 혼란이 계속된다면 데이빗은 그 동안 그랬던 것처럼 그것을 그냥 무시할 것인가?"실수"는 과거의 일로 용서될 수 있고, 그 중 많은 실수는 분명히 간과되지 않았다는 사실조차도, 만약 그것이 계속되지 않을 것이라는 증거가 있다면 말이다.만약 Endercase에 동의하지 않았거나 적어도 문제를 인정했던 편집자가 멘토링을 하겠다고 제안한다면, 그들은 (IDHT 행동이 계속된다면, 심지어 멘토링이 효과가 없다는 것을 보고하고 좌절할 가능성이 높기 때문에 그것은 한 가지가 될 것이다.그러나 데이빗은 앞으로 일어날 모든 혼란을 무시하고 단지 Endercase에게 그의 파괴적인 행동에서 성공적으로 벗어날 수 있는 방법에 대한 조언만 할 작정인 것 같다.만약 문제를 인지한 누군가가 그것을 고치겠다고 제안한다면... 기다려라, 웃긴 생각이 방금 떠올랐다...히지리 88 (聖や) 05:12, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @히지리88:나는 너의 걱정을 이해하지만, 그것이 야기할 수 있는 혼란에 대해 크게 걱정하지 않는다.멘토링을 받는 동안 요점을 파악하지 못하면 상당히 빠른 블록이나 TBAN이 발생할 수 있다.위험 보상 균형 관점에서 살펴보자.그것이 작은 혼란을 초래할 가능성이 크고, 또 다른 유용한 편집자를 프로젝트에 추가하면서 문제를 해결할 가능성이 크다.균형이 위험에 유리하더라도, 이 방정식은 기회를 최선의 선택으로 삼을 것을 지적한다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- 젠장, 방금 이걸 봤어네 핑이 안됐거나 내가 알림 클릭했을 때 정신이 나갔어.
멘토링을 받는 동안 요점을 파악하지 못하면 TBAN
이 꽤빨리 차단
될 수있다는
것에 대해 당신은 사실 꽤 잘 지적하고 있다.
그리고 나는 지금 데이빗의 멘토링에 대한 지지를 철회하는 것에 대해 약간 후회하고 있다.나는 아직도 그가 자격이 없다고 생각하지만, 다른 사용자들이 스스로 발에 총을 쏘도록 허용하는 것이 내가 발에 내 자신을 쏠 수 있도록 총을 벗는 것보다 훨씬 더 좋은 생각이다.간단히 말해서, 나는 어떤 일이 일어나도 잘 되지 않을 때 책임을 지고 싶지 않다.이론적으로 TBAN에 대한 충분한 지지가 아래에 있다. 그래서 만약 더 가까운 사람이 그렇게 할 수 있다고 생각하지만, 이 시점에서 나는 가능한 결과가 "멘토, 누구든 그것을 시도해보고자 하는 사람에 의해"라고 생각한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:11, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 젠장, 방금 이걸 봤어네 핑이 안됐거나 내가 알림 클릭했을 때 정신이 나갔어.
- @히지리88:나는 너의 걱정을 이해하지만, 그것이 야기할 수 있는 혼란에 대해 크게 걱정하지 않는다.멘토링을 받는 동안 요점을 파악하지 못하면 상당히 빠른 블록이나 TBAN이 발생할 수 있다.위험 보상 균형 관점에서 살펴보자.그것이 작은 혼란을 초래할 가능성이 크고, 또 다른 유용한 편집자를 프로젝트에 추가하면서 문제를 해결할 가능성이 크다.균형이 위험에 유리하더라도, 이 방정식은 기회를 최선의 선택으로 삼을 것을 지적한다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- @MjolnirPants:나는 멘토링이 이 문제를 해결할 수 있다는 것에 동의하는 경향이 있지만, 문제를 해결하려는 데이비드의 능력이나 의지에 대해서는 의구심을 갖고 있다.나는 이런 상황에서 데이빗의 멘토링에 대해 심각한 의심을 가지고 있다. 만약 이전처럼 혼란이 계속된다면 데이빗은 그 동안 그랬던 것처럼 그것을 그냥 무시할 것인가?"실수"는 과거의 일로 용서될 수 있고, 그 중 많은 실수는 분명히 간과되지 않았다는 사실조차도, 만약 그것이 계속되지 않을 것이라는 증거가 있다면 말이다.만약 Endercase에 동의하지 않았거나 적어도 문제를 인정했던 편집자가 멘토링을 하겠다고 제안한다면, 그들은 (IDHT 행동이 계속된다면, 심지어 멘토링이 효과가 없다는 것을 보고하고 좌절할 가능성이 높기 때문에 그것은 한 가지가 될 것이다.그러나 데이빗은 앞으로 일어날 모든 혼란을 무시하고 단지 Endercase에게 그의 파괴적인 행동에서 성공적으로 벗어날 수 있는 방법에 대한 조언만 할 작정인 것 같다.만약 문제를 인지한 누군가가 그것을 고치겠다고 제안한다면... 기다려라, 웃긴 생각이 방금 떠올랐다...히지리 88 (聖や) 05:12, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 여기에는 강력한 경고와 짧은 목줄로도 충분하다.나는 WP의 편집자와 별로 긍정적인 상호작용을 하지 않았기 때문에 의견을 개진했다.R. 엔데르카세가 진심으로 기여하고 싶다면, 그는 자신의 행동을 배우고 바꿀 것이다.만약 그렇지 않다면, 목줄이 짧아야 한다.퍼스트라이트 (토크) 02:41, 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[
- JzG와 Orangemike는 둘 다 매우 강한 의견을 냈지만 아래의 두 가지 제안에 대해서는 언급하지 않았다.나는 그들이 그렇게 하도록 초대하기 위해 그들에게 ping을 하고 있다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 00:08, 2017년 3월 14일 (UTC)[
- (얼마나 줄까?) 비관적이지만 두 제안 모두 방해할 정도는 아니다. --Orange MikeTalk 00:27, 2017년 3월 14일 (UTC)[
- 내 생각에, 아주 조금.First Light (talk) 09:54, 2017년 3월 14일 (UTC)[
- (얼마나 줄까?) 비관적이지만 두 제안 모두 방해할 정도는 아니다. --Orange MikeTalk 00:27, 2017년 3월 14일 (UTC)[
제안:멘토링
위에서 제시했듯이, 나는 또한 멘토 아이디어가 좋은 아이디어라고 생각한다. 비록 대부분의 면에서 내가 가장 자격이 있지는 않지만, 나는 기꺼이 사용자 역할을 할 것이다.엔데르카세의 멘토는, 내가 위키피디아에 하루에 한 시간 이상 있을 거라고 기대하지 않는 한. 비록 내가 그의 멘토가 되는 것은 직관에 반하는 일이지만, 나는 그가 사람들을 화나게 하지 않고 전체적으로 편집하고 기여하는 데 시간을 낭비하지 않고 순응하도록 지도할 수 있다고 생각한다.야행성 now (대화) 16:46, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 야행성적으로, 나는 당신이 여기서 멘토가 될 자격이 있다고 생각하지 않는다.마리 르펜과 그 밖의 다른 곳에 대한 당신의 기여와 편집 내용을 흘깃흘깃 보는 것은 당신의 이전 계정을 통해서라고 나는 말한다.그리고 엔데르카세스가 당신을 이 대화에 끌어들였기 때문이기도 하다.멘토는 매우 명확한 NPOV를 가진 훌륭한 지위에 있는 장기 위키백과 편집자가 되어야 한다.RS 토론이나 Breitbart, InfoWars의 언급에서 나온 TBan이 멘토링보다 낫다고 생각하지만, 멘토링이 선택된다면 개인적으로 나는 당신이 되어야 한다고 생각하지 않는다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 23시 40분, 2017년 3월 11일 (UTC)[
- 지원 멘토링. --David Tornheim (토크) 03:08, 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[
- 또한, 나의 지지는 엔데르카세스를 위한 어떤 특정한 멘토에 의존하지 않았다.비록 몇몇 편집자들이 어떤 이유로 그것을 그렇게 읽었음에도 불구하고, 나는 실제로 "공식적인" 제재된 멘토가 되겠다고 제안하지 않았다.경험이 더 많은 사람이 더 적합할 수도 있다.나는 WP에서 그를 만났을 때 그에게 조언과 피드백을 주었다.RS/N, 그리고 그가 더 많은 것을 원했기 때문에 나는 계속해 왔다.비슷한 경험이 있거나 그 이상의 경험을 가진 다른 사람들도 다음과 같은 조언을 했다.히지리88과 므골니르팬츠.또한 다음과 같은 경우에 추가 도움을 구할 수 있는 선택사항이 있다.
- 만약 내 조언 중 어떤 것이 문제가 된다면, 나에게 알려주면 나는 그만둘 것이다.내가 할 수 있는 다른 많은 것들이 있다.
- 지금까지 나의 가장 큰 우려는 그가 새로운 사용자에게 적합한 만큼 경험에 연연하려 하지 않는다는 것이다.나는 행동이 깨지고 있는 어떤 규칙이나 그것을 어떻게 다루어야 하는 지에 대해 알지 못한다.나는 그를 WP에서 금지하는 것이 아니라고 생각한다.(1) 그는 이미 WP에서 물러날 의사가 있었기 때문에 RS/N이 적절한 해결책이다.RS/N (2)는 그의 행동에 대한 주요 문제가 아니다.그것은 나에게 더 많은 태도와 경험에 대한 더 많은 존중이 필요한 것으로 보인다.위키피디아는 평등한 원칙과 정책이 많은 매우 평등주의적인 방식으로 자신을 표현하고 있지만, 경험을 가진 우리들 대부분은 당신이 말하는 것이 얼마나 진지하게 받아들여질지에 큰 차이를 만든다는 것을 알고 있다고 생각한다.경험에 대한 존중이나 존중에 관한 정책이 어디 있는가?처음 보는… --David Tornheim (토크) 02:20, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 멘토링에 반대하지 않는 사람의 코멘트는, 이론적으로는, 여전히 아무런 지장이 없었다고 생각하는 사람의 멘토링은, 데이빗의 첫 번째 코멘트가 아직 타격을 받지 않았기 때문에, 여전히 공식적으로 엔데커세스와 논쟁하는 사람들에게 책임을 전가하려 하고 있다고 생각하는데, 전혀 도움이 되지 않을 것이다.데이빗이 문제가 있다는 것을 인정하려고 했다면, 혹은 문제가 있다고 인정하려고 했던 다른 사람이 멘토링을 하겠다고 제안했다면 그것은 또 다른 문제가 될 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 04:12, 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[
- 나는 여전히
나
의 [Y]
에 대한 답변을 기다리고 있는데, 너는 그가이미 파괴되었다고 생각하지 않는다고
말하니, 너의 멘토링이 어떻게
더이상의 혼란을 예방
할 수 있을까?
위에 언급한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 04:24, 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[- 나는 그의 행동이 '파괴적'이었다고 생각하지 않는다.그러나 나는 또한 그가 여러 가지 오류를 범했다고 생각한다. 왜냐하면 그는 새롭고 규칙을 완전히 이해하지 못하기 때문이다. 그는 아래에서 자유롭게 인정하고 있다.여기서 반항하고 어떤 잘못도 인정하지 않는 대신, 그는 도움이 필요하고 실수를 저질렀음을 인정한다.그것이 내가 개인적으로 보고 싶은 것이다.그는 규칙을 배우고 따르기를 원한다.나는 이미 내 토크 페이지와 그가 그에게 조언을 해주는 두 가지 모두에 꽤 많은 시간을 할애했다.그는 좋은 질문을 한다. --David Tornheim (대화) 02:57, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @David Tornheim:요약 편집에서 비꼬고 미개한 논평과 다른 편집자들을 비웃는 것은 "오류"가 아니다.멘토링이 이런 종류의 더 이상의 혼란을 막지 못한다면 멘토링만으로는 문제가 해결되지 않을 것이다.그가 시인한 "실수"는 당신 이전과 당신 이후 모두 다른 사람들이 고치려고 시도했던 실수인데, 그는 듣지 않았다.그는 지금에 와서야 제재에 직면해 있기 때문에 "실수"를 했다는 것을 인정하고 있으며, 그러한 제재가 통과되지 않으면 그가 다시 듣지 않을 것이라고 믿을 이유가 없다.그의 행동이 지장을 초래하지 않았다고 생각하는 사람은 당신뿐이며, 이것이 그의 게시물 중 하나(분명히 당신이 읽는 유일한 사람)의 실체에 대해 당신만이 그와 동의하기 때문이라는 것은 점점 더 명백해진다.만약 지금까지 그의 행동에 어떤 문제가 있는지 인식하지 못한다면, 앞으로 어떻게 멘토링을 통해 그것을 수정할 수 있을까?만약 다른 편집자가 그를 멘토링해 주겠다고 제안하거나, 그의 행동이 파괴적이라는 것을 기꺼이 인정한다면, 나는 멘토링이 좋은 첫걸음이 될 것이라고 추측할 것이다. 왜냐하면 만약 그 행동이 계속된다면 멘토가 가장 먼저 알아차리고 그것에 지쳐버리게 될 것이기 때문이다. 하지만 당신은 그가 무엇을 잘못하고 있는지조차 이해하지 못하는 것 같기 때문이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 04:56, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
요약 편집에서
비꼬고 미개한 논평과 다른 편집자들을 비웃는 것은 "오류"가 아니다.
히지리, 나는 이 진술에 동의하지만, 여기서 논쟁이 있다.특히 WP의 초서적 판독은 다음과 같은 가능성이 남아 있다.RS, WP:NPA는 우리의 예의범절 정책의 전체로 받아들여지고 있으며, 오류에 대한 비교적 사소한 오해 몇 가지는 이 실마리를 촉발시킨 나에 대한 반응을 설명할 수 있을 것이다.Breitbart가 우리의 RS 가이드라인을 충족시켰다고 느꼈고, 모욕이 수반되지 않는 어떤 종류의 상호작용도 용인될 수 있다고 느꼈으며, (예를 들어) 주장을 "어리석은 것"이라고 일축한 것은 광고적인 것이고, WP에 대한 "주장"은 "협상"과 동의어"라는 그런 사람에게, 그러한 대응이 어떻게 비교적 선의로 이루어질 수 있는지를 알 수 있었다.개인적으로, 나는 이것이 이 경우에 해당하지 않는다고 생각한다. 왜냐하면 그것은 사실상 WP를 의무화하는 수준의 오류 코미디를 필요로 하기 때문이다.CIR 블록.나는, 이 경우에, 그들이 나쁜 믿음으로 행동했다고 가정하는 것이 일반적으로 더 건설적이라고 생각한다. 하지만 선의의 범위를 넓힐 수 있다.우리가 틀렸다면 곧 알게 될 것이고, 우리가 맞다면 빛나는 새 편집자를 얻게 될 것이다.ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:42, 13 March 2017 (UTC)- @MjolnirPants:그래, 위의 댓글에서 네가 말한 모든 것에 동의하지만, 네가 답변하고 있는 댓글을 달았을 때, 나는 (공식 제재에 반대되는) 멘토링 자체가 나쁜 생각이 아니라 데이비드 멘토링이 나쁜 생각이 될 것이라는 의견이었어.당신이 답변을 올렸을 때, 나는 이미 데이빗의 멘토링을 나만의 멘토링으로 보완하면 문제가 되지 않는다고 생각했기 때문에 이 점에 대해 의견을 바꾼 상태였다.(그래서 처음에 답장하지 않은거야)그러나 이제 (JZG의 토크 페이지와 거기에 기반을 둔 약간의 나 자신의 연구에 대한 토론이 끝난 후) 나는 데이빗이 이론적으로 새로운 편집자들에게 조언을 제공할 능력이 있든 없든 간에, 데이빗이 자신의 스케치한 (그리고 더 중요한 것은, 최근의) 편집 이력을 고려할 때, 아마도 그렇게 해서는 안 된다는 생각을 다시 하게 되었다.멘토링을 하자는 내 제안이 아직 테이블 위에 있기 때문에, 이틀 전에 있던 자리로 완전히 돌아가지 않았으니까...내 생각엔 이게 무슨 가치가 있는지 알 것 같은데?Endercase가 나에게 개방적일지 그리고 오직 나만이 멘토링을 할 수 있을지 (그리고 내가 모든 책임을 질 시간/에너지를 가지고 있는지) 두고 보아야 한다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 06:46, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- @David Tornheim:요약 편집에서 비꼬고 미개한 논평과 다른 편집자들을 비웃는 것은 "오류"가 아니다.멘토링이 이런 종류의 더 이상의 혼란을 막지 못한다면 멘토링만으로는 문제가 해결되지 않을 것이다.그가 시인한 "실수"는 당신 이전과 당신 이후 모두 다른 사람들이 고치려고 시도했던 실수인데, 그는 듣지 않았다.그는 지금에 와서야 제재에 직면해 있기 때문에 "실수"를 했다는 것을 인정하고 있으며, 그러한 제재가 통과되지 않으면 그가 다시 듣지 않을 것이라고 믿을 이유가 없다.그의 행동이 지장을 초래하지 않았다고 생각하는 사람은 당신뿐이며, 이것이 그의 게시물 중 하나(분명히 당신이 읽는 유일한 사람)의 실체에 대해 당신만이 그와 동의하기 때문이라는 것은 점점 더 명백해진다.만약 지금까지 그의 행동에 어떤 문제가 있는지 인식하지 못한다면, 앞으로 어떻게 멘토링을 통해 그것을 수정할 수 있을까?만약 다른 편집자가 그를 멘토링해 주겠다고 제안하거나, 그의 행동이 파괴적이라는 것을 기꺼이 인정한다면, 나는 멘토링이 좋은 첫걸음이 될 것이라고 추측할 것이다. 왜냐하면 만약 그 행동이 계속된다면 멘토가 가장 먼저 알아차리고 그것에 지쳐버리게 될 것이기 때문이다. 하지만 당신은 그가 무엇을 잘못하고 있는지조차 이해하지 못하는 것 같기 때문이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 04:56, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그의 행동이 '파괴적'이었다고 생각하지 않는다.그러나 나는 또한 그가 여러 가지 오류를 범했다고 생각한다. 왜냐하면 그는 새롭고 규칙을 완전히 이해하지 못하기 때문이다. 그는 아래에서 자유롭게 인정하고 있다.여기서 반항하고 어떤 잘못도 인정하지 않는 대신, 그는 도움이 필요하고 실수를 저질렀음을 인정한다.그것이 내가 개인적으로 보고 싶은 것이다.그는 규칙을 배우고 따르기를 원한다.나는 이미 내 토크 페이지와 그가 그에게 조언을 해주는 두 가지 모두에 꽤 많은 시간을 할애했다.그는 좋은 질문을 한다. --David Tornheim (대화) 02:57, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 나는 여전히
- 멘토로서 데이비드 토르네임에 대한 강한 반대.내가 보기에 데이빗은 그 자신의 심각한 문제들을 가지고 있다.가이 (도움말 2017년 3월 14일 07:46 (UTC)[]
- Comment So...응...위의 코멘트 뒤에 숨겨진 구체적인 내용에 대해 JzG에게 질문했을 때, 몇 가지 흥미로운 점이 떠올랐다.David Tornheim은 지난 7월 재량적 제재 구역에서 TBAN을 받았고 일주일 안에 금지령을 위반했다는 이유로 차단되었다.[45][46] 차단된 후 그는 백과사전에서 사라졌고, 49일 전에 다시 나타났다.[47] 본질적으로 데이빗은 자신의 금지에 관하여 IDHT에 종사하여 거의 즉각적으로 위반하고 있는 것으로 보이며, 그 사건 이후 자신의 이름을 수정한 지 2개월이 채 되지 않았다.이 모든 것은 그가 나의 타협안을 받아들이기를 거부하거나, 이 실마리를 더 거슬러 올라가기 위해 그의 이전의 공격을 "아직 그것을 이해하지 못했다"는 선한 믿음으로 해석하기 어렵게 만든다.물론 나는 프로젝트를 차단당하고 잠시 중단한 사용자, 특히 먼 과거에 TBAN을 당한 사용자들에게 두 번째 기회를 줄 것이라고 믿지만, 그러한 사용자들은 젊은 문제 계정을 멘토링해야 하는가?데이빗 토르네임이 (아마도 무심코) 혼란을 일으킨 새로운 편집자를 멘토링할 수 있는 역량은 분명히 의문이다.모르겠어: 내가 아직도 "신의를 지키는 데 실패"하고 있는 거야? 이 배경을 4일이나 늦게 알아차린 거야?난 아직 멘토링 할 준비가 되어있어, 그게 무슨 가치가 있든. 하지만 엔데커세스가 TBAN을 피하고 싶다면, 데이빗을 멘토로 취급하지 말라고 분명히 말해야 하는지 궁금해.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:40, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 나는 사람으로서 데이빗을 문제 삼지 않고, 이 실 밖에서 그의 편집 내용을 검토하지 않았다는 점에 유의하십시오(그래서 나는 그를 편집자로 어떻게 생각할 지 전혀 알 수 없다).나에 대한 그의 상술되지 않은 개인적 발언은 사실 내게는 관심사가 아니며, 나는 그가 (내 자신의 TBAN 지지에 따라) 내가 기술적으로 이미 만난 조건의 타협안을 받아들이지 않은 것에 대해 어떤 구체적인 제재에 직면해서는 안 된다고 생각한다.위의 언급은 단지 내가 그가 Endercase를 멘토링할 수 있는 적임자인지에 대해 다시 의문을 품기 시작했다는 것을 의미할 뿐이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:50, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
제안:주제 금지
나는 광범위하게 해석된 RS 토론과 Breitbart와 InfoWars에 대한 언급 또는 언급으로부터 금지된 주제를 제안한다.소프트라벤더 (대화) 2017년 3월 12일 19시 40분 (UTC)[
- 지원, 제안자로서.이 해결책은 멘토링보다 훨씬 쉽고 실행가능하다(시간이 많이 걸리고 예측이 불가능하며, 이미 위키백과에 대해 엄청난 양을 알고 있는 파괴적인 편집자들과 함께 일하는 경우는 드물다).엔데르카세(Endercase)가 자신이 좋아하는 위키백과에 생산적으로 기여할 수 있도록 하고, 백과사전을 짓기 위해 이곳에 있음을 증명할 것이다. -- 소프트라벤더 (talk) 2017년 3월 12일 (UTC)[
- 지원 멘토링이 일어나든 상관없이 편집자가 그 두 가지 출처를 계속 토론하고 RSN에 글을 계속 올리면 아무것도 얻지 못할 것이 분명하다.몇 달 후, 멘토(데이비드, 만약 그가 위에서 말한 것을 설명하기 위해 돌아다닌다면)가 때가 왔다고 판단하면, 그 금지는 호소될 수 있다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 02:27, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 나는 특히 Endercase의 멘토링에 대한 아래의 내 제안에 비추어 위와 같은 입장을 고수한다.나는 RS 토론으로부터의 휴식, 그리고 일반적으로 Breitbart와 InfoWars의 인용구에서 멀리 떨어져 있는 것이 Endercase를 좋게 할 것이라고 생각한다. 그리고 만약 그가 나의 멘토링 제의를 받아들인다면 그에게 이렇게 충고할 것이다.일단 내가 (아마도 데이빗과 나는) 그가 RS 토론에 건설적으로 기여할 때가 왔다고 생각한다면, 나는 금지를 해제하는 것을 지지할 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:27, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
David's talk 페이지에 있는 내 제안에 대한 동의가 있을 때까지 지지를 철회했다.David와 나 둘 다 Endercase가 제안된 TBAN에서 다루는 두 가지 이슈를 모두 자제해야 한다는 데 동의하며, 만약 Endercase가 정말로 멘토링에 대해 진지하게 생각한다면, 그 결과는 같은 공식 금지 조치일 것이다.그의 시점에서 나는 단지 이 난장판이 끝났으면 한다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 22:54, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[-
나는 현재 공식적인 금지법에 중립적인 입장이라는 점에 유의하십시오(다비드 토르네하임의 토크 페이지에서의 나의 요구를 받아들인다고 가정함). 그러나 이것은 엔데르카세가 적어도 단기적으로는 형식적인 금지로서 같은 효과를 낼 수 있는 나나 데이비드나 우리 둘 모두의 조언을 받아들인다는 가정에 근거한다.나는, 멘토링이 효과가 있다면, 공식적인 금지는 필요한 만큼 중복될 것이라고 생각한다.나는 내 투표를 "반대"로 바꾸지 않았다.히지리 88 (聖や) 09:15, 2017년 3월 14일 (UTC)[- 철수를 철회할 겁니다.Endercase의 멘토링에 대한 나의 제안은 여전히 유효하며, 만일 Endercase가 나의 멘토링을 받아들이고 나의 조언을 듣는다면, 그 효과는 공식적인 금지와 같을 것이다.자신의 기록을 금지하는 것은 '징벌'이 아니며, 데이비드 토르네임(최근 금지된 역사가 다소 체크무늬가 있는 것 같다)이 이것을 주장하는 것은 잘못된 것이다.Endercase를 멘토링하는 두 사용자 모두 그에게 이 두 가지 좁은 주제에 대해 자기반지를 취하라고 충고했다는 것은, 그 금지를 공식화하는 것은 단지 Endercase(확실하고 고의적으로)가 사용자들의 충고를 따르지 않는다면, 그가 그렇게 하는 것에 대해 차단된다는 것을 의미한다는 것을 의미한다.금지를 공식화하지 않는 유일한 효과는 Endercase가 그의 멘토의 충고를 무시하게 하는 것이다.내가 이 금지 제안을 다시 지지하는 이유는 이상적인 세상에서 무엇이 될 것인가 보다는 나의 투표를 있는 그대로 세는 것에 더 가까이 다가갈 수 있도록 하기 위함이라는 점에 주목하라.만약 한 사람이 두 명의 선거 운동가!보트(두 사람 모두 금지가 혼란을 막기 보다는 사용자를 "도둑질"하거나 "감정"한다는 잘못된 인상을 받고 있는 것 같다)와 한 명의 우렁찬 투표를 할 수 있다면, "지지"의 수는 "반대"의 수를 훨씬 능가하기 때문에 이론적으로는 F를 집행하기 위한 합의로서 마무리될 수 있다.오말(오랄프, 아마도 일시적 금지.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:11, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 나는 특히 Endercase의 멘토링에 대한 아래의 내 제안에 비추어 위와 같은 입장을 고수한다.나는 RS 토론으로부터의 휴식, 그리고 일반적으로 Breitbart와 InfoWars의 인용구에서 멀리 떨어져 있는 것이 Endercase를 좋게 할 것이라고 생각한다. 그리고 만약 그가 나의 멘토링 제의를 받아들인다면 그에게 이렇게 충고할 것이다.일단 내가 (아마도 데이빗과 나는) 그가 RS 토론에 건설적으로 기여할 때가 왔다고 생각한다면, 나는 금지를 해제하는 것을 지지할 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:27, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 위 토론에서 언급한 이유로 반대한다. --David Tornheim (대화) 02:53, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC) — 참고: 편집자는 데이비드 토르네하임(토크 • 기여)이 이 토론에 참여하게 된 것에 대해 우려를 표명했다. (
- David Tornheim과의 멘토링은 완벽한 해결책이다, 아이모.엔데르카세는 어떤 식으로든 금지되거나 검열을 받을 만한 그런 문제가 아니었다, 아이모.그들은 단지 첫 번째 기회가 필요하다.야행성 now (대화) 03:11, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC) — 참고: 편집자는 Northynow (토크 • 기여)가 이 토론에 참여하게 된 것에 대해 우려를 표명했다. (
- @Noctynow:
다시 이 "검열"로?나는 Endercase를 멘토링(또는 적어도 데이빗의 멘토링/보완)하겠다는 나의 제안을 지지하지만, 어떤 것이 "감염받고 있다"고 계속 주장하고 있는 것은 도움이 되지 않을 것이다.Breitbart와 InfoWars에게만 제공될 수 있는 주장은 거의 확실히 거짓이기 때문에 위키피디아에 포함이 금지되어 있기 때문에 Endercase에 의한 특정 출처 사용에 대한 구체적인 제재는 그가 추가하고 싶은 어떤 내용도 검열하지 않을 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:17, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[ - 잠깐...아니면 "귀여운"이라고 쓰려고 한거야?만약 그렇다면, 오해에 대해 사과할게.나는 여전히 동의하지 않지만, 너는 그가 공동체로부터 비난받아야 하는지에 대한 너의 의견을 받을 자격이 있어.너는 다른 사람들이 그를 "감정"하려고 한다고 비난할 자격이 없다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:21, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그가 비난받았다는 것을 의미한다고 확신한다.noctynow 친절한 말 고마워. --David Tornheim (토크) 08:29, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 미안.. 내가 말한건 정신과였어야행성 now (대화) 17:20, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @Noctynow:좋아, 스트린크.오해해서 미안해.나는 너의 의견을 존중하지만, 동의하지 않아."순수함"은 어떤 종류의 오명을 내포하고 있지만, 허락되지 않는 것은 혼란을 야기시킨 온라인 백과사전의 영역에 기여하는 것으로, 이런 식으로 다루어져서는 안 되는 것이다.이 논의에 대한 몇 가지 다른 기여자들은 TBAN과 다른 제한사항의 적용을 받으며, 그러한 조건을 준수하면서 건설적으로 기여(확실히)했다.때때로 금지 조항이 배포되는 것은 사용자 스스로가 (고의적으로 또는 실수로) 혼란을 야기시켰기 때문이 아니라 커뮤니티나 ArbCom이 (제한된) 편집 제한이 문제를 해결하는 가장 쉽고 최선의 방법이라고 결정했기 때문이다.다시 한 번 여기서, 나는 엔데르카세가 공식적인 금지와 멘토링을 받고, 몇 달 후부터는 금지 조항에 호소하고 싶다면, 내가 옳다고 생각한다면 그것을 지지할 것이라는 것을 강조해야만 한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:20, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 히지리 88, 당신의 추리는 이해하지만, 나는 이 경우 멘토링이 전체 문제를 해결하지 않으면 정식 신청 금지를 보류한다는 입장에서부터 접근해야 한다고 생각하는데, 이는 법원이 누군가를 보호 관찰에 처하게 하는 것과 비슷하다.야행성 now (대화) 14:53, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- @Noctynow:그러나 다시 말하지만, 당신의 비유는 효과가 없다: "이 나쁜 짓을 다시 하면 편집이 차단된다"에 해당하는 공식적인 금지법은 보호관찰과 비슷하다.멘토링이란 해결책이 통하지 않으면 새로운 ANI 실과 무엇을 해야 하는지에 대한 완전히 새로운 논의를 의미한다.
- 그는 이미 이 ANI 실이 열리기 전에 듣고 있는 것처럼 보이는 똑같은 충고를 받았다(어떤 경우에는 같은 사람들에 의해!). 그리고 분명히 그것을 무시했다.그가 형식적인 금지를 피하기 위해 지금 회개하고 있으며, 일단 이 실이 닫히면 다시 파괴적인 존재로 돌아갈 것이라고 추측하는 것은, 이것이 단지 우연의 일치일 뿐이라고 가정하는 것 만큼이나 타당하다.그를 멘토링하는 두 사용자 모두 제안된 금지가 어쨌든 공식적으로 금지할 수 있는 것을 하지 말라고 그에게 말하는 것을 제외하고, 이러한 상황에서 공식적인 금지를 적용하는 것은 기술적인 AGF 위반일 것이다. 그래서 공식 금지와 비공식적인 금지 사이의 유일한 차이점은 그가 전자를 무시하는 것이 허용되지 않는다는 것이다.
- '히지리88은 엔데르카세 멘토'나 '히지리88과 데이비드 토르네하임은 엔데르카세 멘토링'으로 종결되고 엔데르카세가 곧바로 내 멘토링을 무시하기 시작하면 다시 보고하고 정식 금지 요청을 해야 할 책임은 그때 내가 원하는 것이 아니다.공식적으로 엔데르카세가 그의 멘토의 충고를 노골적으로 무시한다면, 그는 차단될 것이고, 그렇게 한다면 누구든지 그를 보고할 수 있을 것이다.
- 히지리 88 (聖聖) 21:36, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 히지리 88, 당신의 추리는 이해하지만, 나는 이 경우 멘토링이 전체 문제를 해결하지 않으면 정식 신청 금지를 보류한다는 입장에서부터 접근해야 한다고 생각하는데, 이는 법원이 누군가를 보호 관찰에 처하게 하는 것과 비슷하다.야행성 now (대화) 14:53, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- @Noctynow:좋아, 스트린크.오해해서 미안해.나는 너의 의견을 존중하지만, 동의하지 않아."순수함"은 어떤 종류의 오명을 내포하고 있지만, 허락되지 않는 것은 혼란을 야기시킨 온라인 백과사전의 영역에 기여하는 것으로, 이런 식으로 다루어져서는 안 되는 것이다.이 논의에 대한 몇 가지 다른 기여자들은 TBAN과 다른 제한사항의 적용을 받으며, 그러한 조건을 준수하면서 건설적으로 기여(확실히)했다.때때로 금지 조항이 배포되는 것은 사용자 스스로가 (고의적으로 또는 실수로) 혼란을 야기시켰기 때문이 아니라 커뮤니티나 ArbCom이 (제한된) 편집 제한이 문제를 해결하는 가장 쉽고 최선의 방법이라고 결정했기 때문이다.다시 한 번 여기서, 나는 엔데르카세가 공식적인 금지와 멘토링을 받고, 몇 달 후부터는 금지 조항에 호소하고 싶다면, 내가 옳다고 생각한다면 그것을 지지할 것이라는 것을 강조해야만 한다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:20, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 미안.. 내가 말한건 정신과였어야행성 now (대화) 17:20, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 나는 그가 비난받았다는 것을 의미한다고 확신한다.noctynow 친절한 말 고마워. --David Tornheim (토크) 08:29, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @Noctynow:
- 반대 지금 Endercase는 좋은 충고를 듣고 있는 것 같다.그들이 WP로부터 떨어져 있을 수 있다면:RS와 그 같은 이슈들을 자발적으로 꺼내는 것을 중단하라, 그것이 더 나을 것이다.만약 이것이 다시 문제가 된다면, 비록 나는 그것이 필요하지 않을 것이라고 희망하지만, 금지가 다시 논의될 수 있을 것이다.퍼스트라이트 (토크) 13:50, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @첫 빛: 네 말이 맞지만 그가 지금 듣고 있는 '좋은 충고'는 대체로 'RSN에 올리지 말라' '브릿바트/인포워스를 인용하지 말라'는 것이다.그러나 문제는 ANI에 이런 일이 오기 전에 같은 충고가 나왔고, 그때 그는 이를 무시했다는 점이다.그러므로 그는 형식적인 금지에 대한 논의가 있기 때문에 지금 듣고 있을 뿐이고, 일단 그의 실이 보관되면 듣는 것을 멈출 것이다.공식적으로 멘토링의 대상이 되고 멘토링으로 인해 블록이 생길 것 같다고 무시하는 동안 멘토에게 멘토가 작동하지 않는다고 보고하는 것은 멘토에게 맡겨져야 할 것이다.여기서 멘토는 나(ANI가 지긋지긋해서 정말 이런 일이 일어나면 여기로 다시 오고 싶지 않다)나 데이빗(여기에 있는 여러 가지 문제들을 아직도 인식하지 못하는 것 같다)이 될 것이다.공식적인 금지는 그가 멘토의 (또는 심지어 각각의 멘토의) 충고를 무시한다면 그는 차단될 것이고 그것은 보고를 하는 멘토가 될 필요가 없을 것이라는 것을 의미한다. (나는 이것이 돌아와서 내 엉덩이를 물리는 것을 원하지 않기 때문에, 나는 이것을 계속 강조할 필요가 있다.이는 금지 정책이 차단 정책과 유사하다는 나의 해석에 근거한 것이다; NOTHERE 편집자들에게 부과된 사이트-밴을 제외하고 금지된 사용자들이 예방적이며, 어떤 면에서 "나쁜 사람들"이나 "위키피디아에 안 온 사람들"이라고 말하는 것을 의미하지는 않는다.나는 다른 사람들이 이 개인적인 철학에 동의하는지 잘 모르겠다.널리 인정받고 있고 WP:BAN에 정식으로 안치되어 있는 것을 보지 못해 다소 놀랐다고 생각했다.) 히지리 88 ( (聖や) 09:13, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- @Hijiri88: 나는 행동의 패턴과 멘토 문제에 관하여 당신이 하는 것과 같은 회의론을 공유한다.나는 단지 한 번 더 기회, 짧은 끈 등이 가장 좋다고 생각한다.나 또한 나쁜 행동이 계속되면 누군가가 그것을 여기로 가지고 올 것이라고 생각한다.그것은 너에게 달려있지 않을 것이다.그냥 내 의견이야.First Light (talk) 2017년 3월 15일 10시 30분 (UTC)[
- @First Light: 메. 내가 보기에 "한 번 더 기회"와 "짧은 끈"은 TBAN을 지지하는 논쟁일 것 같은데, TBAN을 위반하여 그 마지막 기회를 낭비하면 블록으로 발행된다.하지만, 다시 말하지만, 이것은 내 (개인적인) 것에 근거한 것이다.특유한?) 제한된 주제 금지가 이미 마지막 기회라는 의견(이 또한 사용자:소프트라벤더는
엔데르카세
가 자신이좋아하는 위키백과에 생산적으로 기여하는
것을허용
하고 그가백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있다는 것을 증명할 것이다.)
와 함께 위에서 이야기하고 있다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 10:43, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- @First Light: 메. 내가 보기에 "한 번 더 기회"와 "짧은 끈"은 TBAN을 지지하는 논쟁일 것 같은데, TBAN을 위반하여 그 마지막 기회를 낭비하면 블록으로 발행된다.하지만, 다시 말하지만, 이것은 내 (개인적인) 것에 근거한 것이다.특유한?) 제한된 주제 금지가 이미 마지막 기회라는 의견(이 또한 사용자:소프트라벤더는
- @Hijiri88: 나는 행동의 패턴과 멘토 문제에 관하여 당신이 하는 것과 같은 회의론을 공유한다.나는 단지 한 번 더 기회, 짧은 끈 등이 가장 좋다고 생각한다.나 또한 나쁜 행동이 계속되면 누군가가 그것을 여기로 가지고 올 것이라고 생각한다.그것은 너에게 달려있지 않을 것이다.그냥 내 의견이야.First Light (talk) 2017년 3월 15일 10시 30분 (UTC)[
- @첫 빛: 네 말이 맞지만 그가 지금 듣고 있는 '좋은 충고'는 대체로 'RSN에 올리지 말라' '브릿바트/인포워스를 인용하지 말라'는 것이다.그러나 문제는 ANI에 이런 일이 오기 전에 같은 충고가 나왔고, 그때 그는 이를 무시했다는 점이다.그러므로 그는 형식적인 금지에 대한 논의가 있기 때문에 지금 듣고 있을 뿐이고, 일단 그의 실이 보관되면 듣는 것을 멈출 것이다.공식적으로 멘토링의 대상이 되고 멘토링으로 인해 블록이 생길 것 같다고 무시하는 동안 멘토에게 멘토가 작동하지 않는다고 보고하는 것은 멘토에게 맡겨져야 할 것이다.여기서 멘토는 나(ANI가 지긋지긋해서 정말 이런 일이 일어나면 여기로 다시 오고 싶지 않다)나 데이빗(여기에 있는 여러 가지 문제들을 아직도 인식하지 못하는 것 같다)이 될 것이다.공식적인 금지는 그가 멘토의 (또는 심지어 각각의 멘토의) 충고를 무시한다면 그는 차단될 것이고 그것은 보고를 하는 멘토가 될 필요가 없을 것이라는 것을 의미한다. (나는 이것이 돌아와서 내 엉덩이를 물리는 것을 원하지 않기 때문에, 나는 이것을 계속 강조할 필요가 있다.이는 금지 정책이 차단 정책과 유사하다는 나의 해석에 근거한 것이다; NOTHERE 편집자들에게 부과된 사이트-밴을 제외하고 금지된 사용자들이 예방적이며, 어떤 면에서 "나쁜 사람들"이나 "위키피디아에 안 온 사람들"이라고 말하는 것을 의미하지는 않는다.나는 다른 사람들이 이 개인적인 철학에 동의하는지 잘 모르겠다.널리 인정받고 있고 WP:BAN에 정식으로 안치되어 있는 것을 보지 못해 다소 놀랐다고 생각했다.) 히지리 88 ( (聖や) 09:13, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 반대 -
위와 같다.다른 편집자들이 제기한 요점에 따라.다크나이트2149 20:06, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 주 다크나이트2149는 "위"라고 말하지만, 그는 실제로 위에 어떤 것도 올리지 않았다.이 논의에서 그의 다른 언급은 아래에 있다. 이 논의에서 그가 이 실에 관여하는 것은 매우 의심스럽다.나만이 이 드라이브 바이 논평이 부적절하다고 생각하는 것은 아니다.히지리 88 (聖や) 21:23, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC) (편집 07:11, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 내가 "위쪽을 보라"고 했을 때 나는 다른 사람들이 제기한 진정한 점을 언급하고 있었다.그리고 이거 봐.다크나이트2149 22:09, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- WP를 읽어보십시오.투표하지 마십시오.당신은 단지 "위"라고만 말할 것이 아니라 왜 그런지 명시할 필요가 있다.이 실의 어느 두 참가자도 완전히 일치하지는 않으며, 어떤 형태로든 혼란이 발생했다는 것에 모두가 동의한다.또한, 여기에 참여하셔서 [
나]와의 과거 경험에 대해 [b]
ased [b]asonly [empressis
]added]
as a so를 하고 있다고 명시적으로 언급하는 것은 TBAN 위반으로 간주될 수 있다. -- 나와의 유일한 과거 상호작용은 당신이 금지된 주제 영역과, 그리고 금지된 ANI 스레드에 있었다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 22:16, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[- 그래, 단지 ANI 토론에서 너의 행동에 대한 나의 이전의 관찰만으로.TBAN 그만 좀 끌어들여.너는 분명히 보복하고 있다.다크나이트2149 22:19, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- WP를 읽어보십시오.투표하지 마십시오.당신은 단지 "위"라고만 말할 것이 아니라 왜 그런지 명시할 필요가 있다.이 실의 어느 두 참가자도 완전히 일치하지는 않으며, 어떤 형태로든 혼란이 발생했다는 것에 모두가 동의한다.또한, 여기에 참여하셔서 [
- 내가 "위쪽을 보라"고 했을 때 나는 다른 사람들이 제기한 진정한 점을 언급하고 있었다.그리고 이거 봐.다크나이트2149 22:09, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 주 다크나이트2149는 "위"라고 말하지만, 그는 실제로 위에 어떤 것도 올리지 않았다.이 논의에서 그의 다른 언급은 아래에 있다. 이 논의에서 그가 이 실에 관여하는 것은 매우 의심스럽다.나만이 이 드라이브 바이 논평이 부적절하다고 생각하는 것은 아니다.히지리 88 (聖や) 21:23, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC) (편집 07:11, 2017년 3월 15일 (UTC)[
- 위의 제 주장대로 지지하십시오.그리고 데이비드 트론드하임은 절대적으로 부적절한 멘토다.가이 (도움말!) 2017년 3월 14일 07:44 (UTC)[
- 반대하라 나는 그가 과거에 했던 것보다 더 무서운 방식으로 행동할 것이라고 생각한다.(이 섹션 전체가 그렇듯이) 경고는 적절하지만, 지금은 티밴이 필요하지 않다고 생각한다.오브시디 (대화) 22:14, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 위와 같은 것이 다른 누군가에게는 초이상하게 보이나?오브시디는 탐문수사를 받은 것으로 보이지는 않지만 2014년 이후 편집도 거의 하지 않았고 기사 편집보다 ANI 편집 횟수도 두 배나 많다.ANI 중독자가 되는 것은 괜찮지만, 그러한 비율을 가지고 신실한 사용자를 보는 것은 정말 드문 일이다.어떤 경우든, 이것은 그들의 투표수를 셀 때 다른 기고자들의 일부가 선거운동을 했는지 아닌지와 마찬가지로 관련이 있을 수 있다.어느 쪽이든, 위의 캠페인 직전 그의 사용자 토크 페이지에서 엔데르카세가 편집한 것([48]: 이전의 선거운동의 IDHT 방어, 그리고 분명히 이 실의 맨 위에서 내가 한 것과 그가 한 것을 동일시하려는 의도로 '핑'이라는 단어의 정의를 두고 서투른 위키리듬을 하는 것)은 만약 '이 부분'이 '경고'라면, 그것은 명백하다.엔데르카세, 아직 효과가 없는 것 같다.히지리 88 (聖や) 05:05, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 이 시점에서 Endercase 반대는 그의 사건에 도움이 되지 않는 일을 하는 것이고, 어떤 사람들은 그것을 파괴적인 것으로 본다.TBAN치고는 그것만으로는 충분하지 않다.나는 아래에 Endercase에게 그가 신뢰할 수 있는 출처와 Breitbart와 InfoWars에 대한 논평 금지 주제에 대해 고려되기 위해 무엇을 했는지 잘 살펴본다고 논평했다.그렇긴 하지만, 우리가 일반적으로 기사에 있는 대부분의 사실에 대해 신뢰할 수 없다고 비난하는 출처조차도 드물게 신뢰할 수 있는 출처로 사용될 수 있다.그 아이디어는 Endercase에게 WP의 짧은 기회를 주는 것이어야 한다.로프, 그의 행동이 어떻게 그리고 왜 일부 편집자들에게 파괴적인 인상을 주는지 설명하시오. 그리고 만약 그가 우리의 WP를 보지 않는다면:RS 가이드라인을 준수하고 타인에게 합리적으로 파괴적인 것으로 간주될 수 있는 작업을 수행하는 방법을 계속 조언하며, RS 토론 금지 제안으로 광범위하게 해석된다.그러나 프로젝트 전체에 걸쳐 Breitbart와 InfoWars에 대한 언급이나 언급에 대한 금지는 지나치게 광범위하고 WP와 충돌한다.NOTCONSERED. lupgarous (대화) 05:42, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- @Vfrickey:이 논의에서 수없이 설명되었듯이, 방해를 받고 있는 사용자(그리고 현 시점에서 그를 도우려는 사람들에게조차 의도적으로 적대적인 것으로 보이는 사용자)를 금지하는 것은 '검열'이 아니다.우리는 위키피디아의 Breitbart와 InfoWars에 대한 모든 언급을 금지하는 것에 대해 말하는 것이 아니다: 우리는 그들을 적절하게 참조하는 방법을 모르는 한 명의 사용자들이 그들을 참조하는 것을 금지하는 것에 대해 이야기하고 있다.그리고 (Again!) 제한된 TBAN은 ROP이다: 이 제안에 반대하는 거의 모든 사람들은 TBAN과 SBAN의 차이를 오해하고 있고, 전자의 목적을 완전히 오해하고 있는 것 같다.Hijiri 88 (聖やや)
주석(메타)
- Endercase의 논평 나는 멘토링이나 합의에 의해 적절하다고 생각되는 어떤 행동에도 확실히 열려있다.나는 현재 데이비드 토르네하임과 각각의 토크 페이지에서 멘토링에 종사하고 있다.비록 위키백과나 삶에서 내가 더 잘 이해할 수 있도록 도와주는 사용자들의 도움을 부정하지는 않지만, 그들의 의견은 지금까지 매우 존경스럽고, 도움이 되고, 계몽적이었다.나에게 언급된 모든 정책을 읽었음에도 불구하고, 나는 현재 위키피디아의 "분란"에 대한 실무적 정의에 대한 명확한 이해를 가지고 있지 않은 것 같다.나의 모든 행동은 내가 상호작용할 당시 정책에 대한 이해에 기초해 왔다.내가 현재 정책을 가지고 있다는 것을 이해했다면 분명히 다르게 행동했을 텐데, 나는 여전히 배울 것이 많은 것 같다.시간을 내어 내 경우에 적절한 조치가 무엇인지 결정해 주신 여러분 모두에게 감사드린다.Endercase (대화) 2017년 3월 12일 19:22 (UTC)[
- @Endercase:멘토들은 "배정"되지 않는다.그것은 자발적이기 때문에, 아무도 당신을 조언하지 않는다면 당신은 멘토를 얻을 수 없다.나는 지금까지 그것을 하겠다고 제의한 한 사람의 멘토링은 효과가 없을 것이라고 생각하는 데 있어서 소수인 것 같다.만약 지역사회가 데이빗의 멘토링이 해결책이라고 결정한다면, 난 그걸 받아들일거야. 하지만... 글쎄, 내가 너의 멘토가 되는 것에 대해 뭐라고 말할래?당신과 내가 했던 과거의 부정적인 상호작용을 용서하고 잊어버릴 용의가 있으며, 만약 당신이 정말로 편집에 더 능숙해지기 위해 노력한다면, 나는 내가 할 수 있는 어떤 방법으로든 기꺼이 도울 용의가 있다.그게 왜?히지리 88 (聖や) 05:12, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @히지리88:David Tornheim은 지금까지 매우 도움이 되었고 나는 그들의 상호 작용과 의견을 잃고 싶지 않다.하지만, 여러분의 조언은 또한 매우 가치 있을 것이다.당신과 데이빗 토르네임이 이 논의에서도 사이가 좋지 않은 것을 고려하면, 두 사람이 함께 일하기 어려울 수도 있다.만약 당신이 그들과 함께 나를 멘토링 할 수 있다면, 나는 이것이 두 가지 매우 다른 편집 스타일 사이의 중요한 발전을 의미할 것이라고 생각한다.이것은 우리 모두에게 매우 성장한 경험이 될 것이고 나는 이것이 몇 가지 성장통으로 이어질 것이라고 생각한다.하지만, 나는 우리 모두가 그 경험으로부터 꽤 많은 것을 배우고 더 나은 편집자가 될 것이라고 생각한다.지금 이 순간 나에게 필요한 가장 중요한 것은 파괴적인 행동에 대한 너의 명확한 정의야.당신이 언급했듯이, 지나친 포스팅, 빈정거림, 그리고 같은 주장을 단일한 제목 아래 반복하고, 탐색을 하고, 서술적이지 않은 편집 요약을 가지는 것, 그리고 몇 가지 다른 것들이다.나는 또한 더 나은 이해를 얻기 위해 다른 AN/I 게시물을 읽고 있다.나는 당신의 관점을 더 잘 이해하고 싶고 이 아이디어에 대한 데이비드 토르네임의 의견을 듣고 싶다.Endercase (대화) 06:24, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
[me]와 David Tornheim havv[ing]
은 이토론에서조차 사이
가 좋지않은
것은 사실 문제가 되지 않는다. 우리는 이 토론에서 당신의 행동이 "파괴적"인지 아니면 "실수적"인지에 대해 의견이 분분하다.우리가 "분란"에 대한 다른 정의에 대해 연구하고 있는 것처럼 보이기 때문에, 사실 이것은 그렇게 큰 의견 차이도 아니다. 왜냐하면 우리가 "분란"에 대한 다른 정의들을 연구하고 있는 것처럼 보이기 때문이다: 그것은 "실수" 행동과 상호 배타적이지 않기 때문이다. 내 정의에 따르면, 분란이 일어났다는 것은 진실이다.넌 파괴적인 걸 의미했어나를 포함한 모든 사람들은 멘토링이 좋은 생각이 될 것이라는 데 동의한다.나는 단지 데이비드가 당신의 행동에 대해 다른 사람들이 제기한 우려를 무시하고 있는 것 같아서 그가 공식적으로 당신의 멘토 역할을 하고 있다고 해도 계속 그렇게 할지도 모른다는 걱정이다.- 만약 당신이 나를 당신의 멘토로 받아들일 용의가 있다면, 나는 당신에게 Breitbart나 InfoWars를 인용하지 말라는 충고를 제공할 것이다. 그들은 가끔 일을 바로잡고, 그리고 그들이 더 신뢰할 수 있는 출처와 동의할 때에만 그들의 편집 편향은 위키피디아의 NPOV 정책과 너무 많이 상충되어 그것들을 사용하는 것은 충분한 주의를 필요로 할 것이다.그리고 경험이 풍부한 편집자들에게도 비실용적일 것이라는 근면함.그냥 피하는 게 좋을 거야.
- RSN에 대해서는, 나는 네가 지금까지 해왔던 방식으로 그곳에 기여하지 말라고 강력히 충고하고 싶다.그 게시판은 종종 위키피디아에서 이것 또는 저것의 출처가 어떤 특정한 목적에 적합한지 판단하기 위한 것으로, 따라서 다른 사용자들에게 "팔아서" 그들이 이야기하고 있는 어떤 자료를 추가하라고 말하는 것은 도움이 되지 않는다.FRC가 청소년 임신기사의 믿을만한 출처인지에 대한 논의는 RSN이 아닌 토크 페이지에서 이루어져야 한다고 말하는 것도 아니다. 대부분의 정규 기고자들은 기사 작성 경험이 풍부하며, 실제로 글을 쓰는 경험을 더 많이 얻지 않고는 그들이 할 수 있는 만큼 잘 기여할 수 없을 것이다.g 기사와 출처를 인용하다.이것은 당신이 Breitbart와 InfoWars가 믿을 수 없다는 것을 이미 알아야 할 대학교수가 아니라는 가정에 근거한다; 나는 그렇지 않다(나는 학사 학위를 가지고 있고 책을 많이 읽는다).RSN에서 일방적으로 금지할 수는 없지만, 특히 WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS를 이해하거나 정책 및 가이드라인을 이해하고 있다는 것을 (그리고 그 밖의 누구에게도) 증명할 때까지 잠시 멀리하는 것이 좋을 것 같다(WP:WP와 문제가 있을 수 있다).NPOV, 하지만 기사 내용을 충분히 볼 수 없었다.)
- 가까운 장래에 이런 충고를 계속 할 수 있다면 기쁘겠지만, 당신은 그 충고를 들어야 할 것이다.나는 여기 오기 전에 당신의 토크 페이지에서 본질적으로 같은 충고를 하려고 했지만, 당신은 그것을 무시했다.그것은 만약 당신이 이 줄기에서 다른 편집자들이 주장했던 것 대신에 "멘토링" 선택권을 부여 받는다면 당신은 할 수 없을 것이다.'멘토링'이라는 일반적인 개념에 비해 소프트라벤더의 TBAN 제안에 대한 지원은 제한적일 수 있지만, 다른 어떤 옵션보다 '강경 경고'와 '짧은 목줄'에 대한 지원이 많기 때문에 앞으로 제시된 조언을 듣지 않으면 편집이 차단될 가능성이 높다는 점을 이해해야 한다.이것을 "위협"으로 여기지 마십시오.나는 데이빗보다 잠재적으로 훌륭한 기고자들이 차단되는 것을 더 이상 바라지 않으며, 내가 원한다고 해도 일방적으로 너를 차단할 힘도 없다.그것은 단순한 사실의 진술이다.
- 히지리 88 (聖や) 06:56, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- TLDR: 그러한 출처를 인용해서는 안 되며, RSN에 대한 조언을 제공하기 전에 더 많은 기사를 써야 한다.위의 TBAN 제안이 통과하기에 충분한 지지를 얻든 못 얻든 간에, 이것들은 당신이 정말로 지켜야 할 조건들이다.이 실이 '멘토르'로 닫히면 멘토(또는 멘토)의 조언을 들을 필요가 있다.만약 그렇지 않다면, 여러분의 멘토는 여러분이 귀를 기울이도록 하는 것에 지칠 것이고, 우리는 테이블 위에 있는 "차단하지 마, 멘토링이 더 낫지" 선택사항 없이 바로 여기에 있을 것이다.히지리 88 (聖や) 07:02, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @히지리88:David Tornheim은 지금까지 매우 도움이 되었고 나는 그들의 상호 작용과 의견을 잃고 싶지 않다.하지만, 여러분의 조언은 또한 매우 가치 있을 것이다.당신과 데이빗 토르네임이 이 논의에서도 사이가 좋지 않은 것을 고려하면, 두 사람이 함께 일하기 어려울 수도 있다.만약 당신이 그들과 함께 나를 멘토링 할 수 있다면, 나는 이것이 두 가지 매우 다른 편집 스타일 사이의 중요한 발전을 의미할 것이라고 생각한다.이것은 우리 모두에게 매우 성장한 경험이 될 것이고 나는 이것이 몇 가지 성장통으로 이어질 것이라고 생각한다.하지만, 나는 우리 모두가 그 경험으로부터 꽤 많은 것을 배우고 더 나은 편집자가 될 것이라고 생각한다.지금 이 순간 나에게 필요한 가장 중요한 것은 파괴적인 행동에 대한 너의 명확한 정의야.당신이 언급했듯이, 지나친 포스팅, 빈정거림, 그리고 같은 주장을 단일한 제목 아래 반복하고, 탐색을 하고, 서술적이지 않은 편집 요약을 가지는 것, 그리고 몇 가지 다른 것들이다.나는 또한 더 나은 이해를 얻기 위해 다른 AN/I 게시물을 읽고 있다.나는 당신의 관점을 더 잘 이해하고 싶고 이 아이디어에 대한 데이비드 토르네임의 의견을 듣고 싶다.Endercase (대화) 06:24, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- @Endercase:멘토들은 "배정"되지 않는다.그것은 자발적이기 때문에, 아무도 당신을 조언하지 않는다면 당신은 멘토를 얻을 수 없다.나는 지금까지 그것을 하겠다고 제의한 한 사람의 멘토링은 효과가 없을 것이라고 생각하는 데 있어서 소수인 것 같다.만약 지역사회가 데이빗의 멘토링이 해결책이라고 결정한다면, 난 그걸 받아들일거야. 하지만... 글쎄, 내가 너의 멘토가 되는 것에 대해 뭐라고 말할래?당신과 내가 했던 과거의 부정적인 상호작용을 용서하고 잊어버릴 용의가 있으며, 만약 당신이 정말로 편집에 더 능숙해지기 위해 노력한다면, 나는 내가 할 수 있는 어떤 방법으로든 기꺼이 도울 용의가 있다.그게 왜?히지리 88 (聖や) 05:12, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 설명(대부분 Endercase에 추가됨).나는 히지리88이 나 자신 외에 엔데르카세에게 조언을 하는 것에 이의가 없다.사실, 나는 시간이 한정되어 있기 때문에 그것을 선호한다.나는 히지리88에 동의한다. 우리가 교차포용에 있지 않을 것이라는 것에, 내가 WP에서 당신을 처음 만났을 때 그 이상:RS/N과 숙련된 사용자들은 당신에게 조언을 해주고 있었다.
- 나는 히지리88의 의견에 동의한다. 우리 사이의 주된 의견 차이점은 지금까지 당신의 행동이 tban의 차원에서 처벌이 필요한가 아니면 비난이 필요한가이다.난 그렇게 생각하지 않아.나는 이것을 규칙을 이해하지 못한 초보자로 본다, 라고 WP는 생각했다.무시는 우리에게 규칙이 없다는 것을 의미했고, 이제 여러분은 우리에게 규칙이 있고, 그것을 따르지 않는 결과가 있다는 것을 알고 있다.
- 나는 히지리88의 거의 모든 조언에 동의한다.
- Breitbart 및 InfoWars를 WP로 사용:RS는 피해야 한다.
- 편집자를 WP로 유도:볼드(BOLD)는 특히 WP에서 그랬던 것처럼 좋지 않은 생각이다.RS/N
- 경험 많은 사용자들의 조언을 더 듣고(경험이 있는 사용자들의 감각을 얻기 위해 그들의 사용자 페이지를 볼 수 있다), 긴 논쟁을 삼간다.정말 상대방이 틀렸다고 생각한다면 우리에게 물어보면 된다.
- WP에서 조언을 주지 않는다.RS/N, 다시 한 번 "WP:볼드(BOLD)". WP의 규칙을 알아보십시오.RS를 먼저, 그리고 그것은 단지 규칙을 읽는 것 이상의 것을 의미한다.경험이 필요하다.
- WP에서 질문을 해도 괜찮다.특정 출처를 특정 진술을 뒷받침하는 데 사용할 수 있는지에 대한 RS/N.그러나 대답이 마음에 들지 않으면 논쟁하기보다는 의견과 합의를 얻기 위해 그렇게 하라.
- 내가 Hijiri88에 동의하지 않는 유일한 것은 당신이 당신 자신의 기사를 만들도록 요구하는 것이다.최고 품질의 RS로 기존 기사에 추가해야 할 일이 많은데, 특히 RS가 불량하거나 아예 없는 문장에 좋은 RS를 추가하고, RS에 있는 문장과 문장이 일치하지 않을 때 본문의 오류를 수정한다.오자를 고치는 것은 언제나 환영하는 일이다. 명백한 공공 기물 파손 사례를 되돌리는 것이다.그리고 앞에서 말했듯이 WP:Backlog(<나는 당신이 그 일을 하기 위해 더 많은 경험이 필요한지 아닌지 잘 모르겠다.새로운 사용자가 편안함을 느낄 수 있도록 해야 할 일이 아마도 있을 것이다.)
- FYI, 과거 멘토들이 배정되었다.나는 지금 그것에 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 모른다.위키백과 페이지:Co-op은 그것이 더 이상 활동적이지 않다고 말한다.물어볼게. --David Tornheim (대화) 09:07, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 우려 - 이 사용자와의 과거 경험만으로 볼 때, 나는 Hijiri88이 멘토가 되기 위한 올바른 선택은 아니라고 생각한다.하지만 그가 여기서 말하는 것에 관해서는, 나는 그 중 많은 것에 동의한다.다크나이트2149 20:22, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 다크나이트2149의 "과거 나와의 상호작용"은 내가 한 기사에서 그의 파괴적인 출처 오독, 또 다른 기사에서 잊어버린 사소한 상호작용, 그리고 그에 대한 최근 ANI 실 두 개에 대한 나의 참여로 이루어져 있었다.ANI 스레드는 그가 두 기사를 다루는 주제 영역에서 일시적으로 제외되는 결과를 낳았다.나는 이 일시적 금지가 문제를 더 악화시켰다는 것이 분명하기 때문에, 이제 이 금지 조치가 더 이상 도움이 될 필요가 있다고 생각하고 있다.내가 이전에 그와 교감했던 것이 이 사건과 원격으로 관련이 있을 수 있다는 것을 보여주는 유일한 것은 내가 그 사람보다 출처를 주의 깊게 읽는 것에 대해 더 많이 알고 있다는 것이다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 22:21, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 이것은 내가 언급했던 종류의 행동이다.그리고 네가 싸움을 찾고 있으니, 난 다음 단계로 넘어갈 거야.여기서 다시 나를 언급하거나 ping하지 마라.저는 빠질게요.다크나이트2149 22:24, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 다크나이트2149의 "과거 나와의 상호작용"은 내가 한 기사에서 그의 파괴적인 출처 오독, 또 다른 기사에서 잊어버린 사소한 상호작용, 그리고 그에 대한 최근 ANI 실 두 개에 대한 나의 참여로 이루어져 있었다.ANI 스레드는 그가 두 기사를 다루는 주제 영역에서 일시적으로 제외되는 결과를 낳았다.나는 이 일시적 금지가 문제를 더 악화시켰다는 것이 분명하기 때문에, 이제 이 금지 조치가 더 이상 도움이 될 필요가 있다고 생각하고 있다.내가 이전에 그와 교감했던 것이 이 사건과 원격으로 관련이 있을 수 있다는 것을 보여주는 유일한 것은 내가 그 사람보다 출처를 주의 깊게 읽는 것에 대해 더 많이 알고 있다는 것이다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 22:21, 2017년 3월 13일 (UTC)[
- 의견 - 이전에 WP에서 Endercase와 상호 작용한 적이 있다.NPOVN, 편견과 관련된 것.그는 토론에서 중재했고 나는 어느 쪽에도 치우치지 않았다.그는 상당히 중립적이고 문제 해결에 도움이 되는 것 같았다.단지 이 사용자가 생산적이고 편견이 없는 편집자 역할을 한 예시일 뿐이고 그것을 고려해야 하기 때문에 이 이야기를 꺼내는 것이다.유엔 안보리의 루크 1021 (대화) 14:08, 2017년 3월 16일 (UTC)[하라
- 설명(Endercase에 추가됨)Endercase, 당신은 편집자가 당신에 대한 제재에 대해 그들이 전적으로 적절하다고 생각하는 것 보다 더 적극적일 정도로 심각하게 한 편집자를 꾸짖었다.당신은 당신이 무엇을 했는지 보기 위해 여기 이 줄기에서 다른 숙련된 편집자들의 의견을 연구할 수도 있다.나는 당신을 알지 못하며, 이 싸움에 개도 가지고 있지 않다. 다만 WP에서 언급되지 않은 특정 출처에 대한 지지를 분리해야 한다고 생각한다.RS는 드물게 트롤링으로부터 신뢰할 수 있다.가능은 하지만 힘든 시간을 보내게 될 거야.당신은 "사실적"인 것처럼 행동하고 사람들에게 어떻게 해야 하는지를 조언함으로써 당신의 사건을 돕는 것이 아니다. 우리 대부분이 백과사전을 만드는 것을 방해하는 것으로 합리적으로 볼 수 있다.만약 당신이 사용하고 싶은 출처에 대한 객관적인 이유(명백한 Breitbart와 InfoWars)를 주어진 점을 지지하기 위해 스스로 신뢰할 수 있는 것으로 정리할 수 있다면, 가능한 한 중립적인 관점에 가까운 백과사전을 쓰기 위해 여기 온 것을 고려한 후에만 그렇게 하십시오.보통, 우리는 그 사실이 당신이 그것에 동의하지 않는 출처를 인용할 준비가 되어 있다면 그 사실을 뒷받침하기 위해 오직 Breitbart, Huffington Post, InfoWars 또는 Media Matters와 같은 정치적 옹호자만 인용한다.그것은 거의 가치가 없고 기사에 텍스트를 추가했다.현재 상태로는 신뢰할 수 있는 사람들을 설득하여 신뢰할 수 있는 출처 토론에서 제외시키십시오.그들이 왜 그렇게 느끼는지 잠시 생각해 보아라.아마 대부분 개인적으로는 아닐 겁니다.루프가루 (대화) 05:42, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- @Vfrickey:당신이 RS/N에서 언급한 출처의 사용을 요청하지 않은 것은 주목할 필요가 있다.나는 금지된 출처 목록을 요청했고, 일반적으로 출처를 금지하는 과정에 의문을 제기했다.나는 또한 단골들을 템플리트로 만들었다.또한, 나는 민사상의 사소한 위반에 대해 유죄를 선고한다(사르카즘 및 비구술적 편집 요약).나는 그들이 부적절했기 때문에 관련 직책을 몇 개 건드렸다.내가 여기서 또래들을 정말 화나게 한 것 같은 일차적인 일은 내가 그들이 틀렸다고 생각할 때 (그들이 아무리 "경험"을 많이 가지고 있어도) 그들에게 왜 그들이 틀렸다고 생각하는지를 인용할 때 그들에게 말하는 것이다.
- 이러한 출처에 관하여:나는 그들이 제거되어도 괜찮았다.나는 그들이 제거된 방식이 마음에 들지 않았다.내가 인용한 특정 기사나 그 기사로부터 가져간 정보(현재까지)를 공개적으로 평가한 편집자는 단 한 명도 없었다.그들은 내가 몇 년 전에 일어났던 일에 참여하지 않았다는 일반적인 합의를 이유로 제거되었고, 나의 특별한 용법은 결코 직접적으로 전달되지 않았다.RS/N은 양극화 선원에 대해 호의적으로 보지 않기 때문에 제거에 도전하지 말라는 조언을 당시 받았다.Endercase (대화) 14:17, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
사용자:JFG Warring/Disrupration 편집
| 제안대로 마감-Ymblanter (대화) 20:32, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
나는 도널드 트럼프 기사에 몇 가지 추가와 복사를 했다.나는 또한 "고교 섹션"을 옮겨서 초기 생활과 가족 섹션에 섞었다.나는 그 토크 페이지를 폭넓게 활용했다.JFG가 나타나서는 아무런 명분도 없이 나의 모든 변화를 간단히 철회했다.여기에는 카피 편집과 덧셈이 포함되었는데, 이는 조상의 이동에 대한 그의 반대와는 아무런 관계가 없다.그는 그 사실을 알고 나서야, 이에 앞서서 대화 페이지를 활용했다.특히 트윙클을 이용해 편집한 내 모든 것을 취소했기 때문에 이것은 분명히 혼란스러운 것이다.내가 편집한 것은 공공 기물 파손이 아니었다.그것들은 소스가 되었고 대부분은 모방되었다.이것은 가치 있는 행동을 차단하는 것이다.그 기사는 ArbCom의 제재를 받고 있으며 나는 그를 간단히 되돌릴 수 없다.SW3 5DL (대화) 06:56, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 알림:여기SW3 5DL (대화) 07:02, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 여기서 SW3에 대한 섹션을 시작할까 생각중이었어.영예로운 일을 했으니 스스로 발에 총을 쏘지 않기를 바란다.SW3가 '토크 페이지를 광범위하게 활용했다'고 했을 때, 아마도 "토크 페이지에 가끔 갔었는데 아무도 동의하지 않았는데 대부분 틀렸으니 내가 하고 싶은 대로 하게 해달라"는 의미일 것이다.Anythingyyouwant (대화) 07:09, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 내 답변이 왔다.여러 번 수정하셨잖아요.그들은 도전을 받았다.당신은 그들을 위한 토크 페이지 컨센서스를 얻지 못했다.끝. 나머지는 상관없어.당신은 이 기사가 어떻게 작동하는지 이해할 수 있을 만큼 충분히 오랫동안 그 기사에 있어왔다.-맨드러스 인터뷰 07:17, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 트럼프에 대한 언급은 1학년 때 포드햄에 입학하고 3학년 때 와튼으로 전학 간 적이 어디에 있는지 모르겠다.다른 사람들도 마찬가지야Anthingyouwant만이 '앵커스트리' 코너에 대해 이야기를 계속했다.JFG처럼 그 사실을 알고 나타나셨군요그리고 JFG는 토크 페이지에 신경쓰지 않았다.그는 내가 편집한 내용을 보지도 않고 모두 뒤로 굴렸다.SW3 5DL (토크) 07:20, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 만약 포덤이 복원되었어야 했던 재료의 가장 좋은 예라면, 그건 설득력이 없다.BLP는 이미 "트럼프는 브롱크스에 있는 포드햄 대학에서 2년간 보직을 시작했다"고 밝히고 있다.그는 펜실베이니아 대학의 와튼 스쿨로 전학했다.사용자별 되돌리기를 전적으로 지원함:JFG.08:04, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)Anythingyouwant (대화)[
- 트럼프에 대한 언급은 1학년 때 포드햄에 입학하고 3학년 때 와튼으로 전학 간 적이 어디에 있는지 모르겠다.다른 사람들도 마찬가지야Anthingyouwant만이 '앵커스트리' 코너에 대해 이야기를 계속했다.JFG처럼 그 사실을 알고 나타나셨군요그리고 JFG는 토크 페이지에 신경쓰지 않았다.그는 내가 편집한 내용을 보지도 않고 모두 뒤로 굴렸다.SW3 5DL (토크) 07:20, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- SW3 5DL은 몇 시간 동안 일련의 편집을 하였고, 이로 인해 기사의 중요한 부분이 재구성되었다.그의 변화 중 몇 가지는 애니유원트가 Talk에서 반대했다.도널드 트럼프 #번들번들한 연대기그 변화들 중 하나는 무보슈구에 의해 되돌려졌다.나는 이 중대한 개편이 독자들에게 너무 과도하고 혼란스럽다는 것을 알았다.나는 대량으로 되돌아가서 토크 페이지에 이런 중대한 변화들이 먼저 논의되고 공감대를 얻어야 한다고 설명했다.나는 글로벌 리턴에서 포착된 선택된 편집이 기사의 구조를 변경하지 않는 한 복원하는 것에 반대하지 않는다.만약 SW3가 나에게 그러한 편집들을 지적해 줄 수 있다면, 나는 그의 작품에서 논란의 여지가 없는 부분을 복원할 수 있을 것이다.그러나 WP의 정신으로 다음과 같다.ARBAPDS 및 {{2016 미국 선거 AE}}, 다른 편집자가 이의를 제기하는 편집은 반드시 더 논의한 후 복구해야 한다.마지막으로, 내가 SW3를 공공 기물 파손 혐의로 고발한 곳은 어디에도 없다.트윙클은 하나의 도구일 뿐인데, 나는 나의 복귀에 대해 "최근 개편은 지저분해 보인다; 토크 참조"라고 평했다. — JFGtalk 07:33, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- SW3: 치료법에 따르면, 도전하는 데 필요한 것은 되돌리기뿐이다.도전자는 "토크 페이지와 함께 할" 필요가 없다; 그 부담은 당신에게 있다.이것은 감사하게도 절차에 대한 논쟁을 피할 수 있을 만큼 지침이 명확했던 몇 안 되는 사례 중 하나이다.그럼에도 불구하고 우리는 과정에 대해 논쟁하고 있다.JFG는 18K 편집기로 블록 로그가 깔끔하고 (내가 알고 있는) 업무 중단에 대한 평판이 없다.사실, 그 기사의 내 경험에서 나는 그가 그곳에서 가장 협력적인 두 명의 단골 중 한 명이라는 것을 알게 되었고, 그는 내가 만난 몇 안 되는 편집자 중 한 명으로서 "감정"을 더러운 단어로 여기지 않는다.이런 상황에서 나는 당신에게 이 불평을 철회하고 당신의 수정 사항을 의논할 것을 제안할 것이다.-맨드러스 ☎ 07:38, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
나는 그들의 토크 페이지에 재량권 제재에 대한 SW3의 공식 통지를 보냈다.트윗북스파세튜브 07:45, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
JFG는 여기서 발표되지 않는다.그는 트윙클을 사용하여 뒤로 굴러가는 것을 알고 있었다.그것은 공공 기물 파손에 이용된다.그는 일부러 이런 짓을 했다.이것은 명백히 남용이며, 특히 그는 내가 편집한 어떤 것에 대해서도 이의를 제기하지 않고 토크 페이지에 관여하지 않았기 때문이다.그는 간단히 되돌아가고 나서 자신의 주장을 했다.그는 모든 것을 뒤로 굴렸다.친구 Anythingyouwant를 응원하러 온 게 분명해특히 Anything의 코멘트가 여기랑 여기.편집된 쇼들을 분류하는데 시간을 들이지 않는 것은 그가 의도했던 것을 증명하는 것이다.그는 확실히 차이를 알 만큼 오랫동안 여기서 편집자였다.그리고 어떻게 카피디트가 "주요 변화"인지 설명해주길 바란다.트럼프가 포드햄에 1학년으로, 와튼이 3학년으로 입학했다는 글이 큰 변화인가?SW3 5DL (대화) 07:53, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- @SW3 5DL:WP: 질투를 하는 것은 당신의 사건에 도움이 되지 않는다… 그리고 나는 편집자들이 우연히 당신의 의견에 동의하지 않을 때 당신이 비난적인 행동에 빠지는 것을 여러 번 보았다.불신임과 편집자 유착에 대한 당신의 주장을 수정하지 않으면 결과에 직면하게 된다.— JFGtalk 07:57, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
관리자는 다음 사항에 유의하십시오.그들 모두가 "고향" 부분을 옮기는 것에 대한 모든 불신에도 불구하고, 내가 말하는 바로는 그들이 "고향"을 추가했다는 것뿐이다.BS가 뭔지 보여주지그들이 말하는 것은, "여기서는 편집할 수 없다."그리고 JFG는 WP이다.BULG는 트윙클을 사용하여 나를 편집하지 않는다.SW3 5DL (대화) 08:16, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
내 에세이 초안이 이렇게 빨리 다시 연관될 줄은 생각도 못했어!트윗북스파세튜브 11시 42분, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
제안된 WP:부메랑
지속적인 WP로 인해:IDHT와 WP:BATTL 행동, 인신공격, 토론, 그리고 긴 블록 로그, 나는 사용자에게 다음을 제안한다.SW3 5DL은 한 달 동안 차단된다.
*프로포즈로서 지원Twitbookspacetube 07:55, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)
- 콘텐츠 분쟁을 해결할 기회가 주어졌을 때, (
SW3가 나에게 그러한 편집들을 지적
할 수있다면,
나는논란
의 여지가없는
그의작품의 일부를 복원
할 수있다.)
SW3는 이를 무시하고 반달리즘과 담합에 대한 동료 편집자들을 고발한다.그의 부적절한 질투를 철회할 기회가 주어지자 SW3는 파고들어 모욕에 매달린다.그만! — JFG 09:31, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 콘텐츠 분쟁을 해결할 기회가 주어졌을 때, (
- 위의 모든 사람들이 설명한 이유로 마지못해 지지하십시오.나는 솔직히 지난 몇 달 동안 SW3의 많은 편집, 특히 중요하지 않거나 편향된 자료의 삭제에 감사했다.휴식이 좀 쉬어 가쁜 감정을 좀 풀어주었으면 좋겠다.Anythingyyouwant (대화) 08:17, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[하라
- 지원 - 동료 사용자의 말을 듣지 않는 경우, 배틀그라운드, 아래 뾰족한 반대 제안 및 캐스팅 질식.긴 블록이 그들을 다시 정상 궤도에 올려놓길 바란다.The GracefulSlick (talk) 08:44, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[하라
@GracefulSlick: 위의 나의 의견에 비추어 iBote를 다시 생각해보십시오.감사합니다.SW3 5DL (대화) 08:58, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- SW3 5DL 미안하지만 내 의견은 바뀌지 않았다.The GracefulSlick (talk) 2017년 3월 19일 16:24 (UTC)[하라
- [49]에 따른 지원 및 아래 노골적인 보복성 게시.그것은 완전히 유치한 것이 아니라 분명히 WP:IDL 및 WP:동시에 IDHT(성취, 즉 그 나름의 방식으로)와 이 보드를 추적하는 verge.이와 같은 추가 편집은 SW3 5DL이 다른 편집자와 어떻게 상호 작용하는지에 대한 문제뿐만 아니라 정책에 대한 부정확한 관점을 강조한다. 관련 페이지에 관한 DS 통지서의 배치는 'trolling'으로 치부하기 어렵다. — O Fortuna! Imperatrix mundi. 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- SW3의 두 가지 제안을 모두 반대하십시오(위 참조).트윗북스파세튜브 08:50 (UTC) 2017년 3월 19일 (화)[
관리자 노트 SW3 5DL, 여기는 콘텐츠 분쟁 장소가 아니다.지금까지 다섯 명의 편집자 네 명이 한 달 동안 너를 차단하려고 전화를 하고 있는 것을 보니, 그게 좋은 반성의 지표가 아니라면, 난 뭐가 뭔지 모르겠어.당신이 했어야 할 일은 논쟁의 여지가 있는 부분은 빼놓고 당신의 수정 사항을 다시 제출하는 방법을 토크 페이지에서 알아내고, 그렇지 않으면 타협점을 찾아내는 것이었다.또한, 대화 페이지에 참여가 있는 한 편집한 내용이 어떻게 되돌아가는지는 그다지 중요하지 않다.El_C 09:17, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 나는 토크 페이지를 이용하여 JFG에게 스스로 되돌아가라고 했다.내가 지적했듯이, 그들은 내가 이동한 구간을 내가 이동한 바로 그 곳으로 떠났다.그래, 그건 무트야.그렇게 하면 다른 편집은 남지만, 그는 자기 자신을 되돌리지는 않을 것이다.내 모든 편집에 이의를 제기하지 않는데, 왜 그걸 복구하지 않는 거지?그리고 나는 내 편집에 토크 페이지를 이용했다.SW3 5DL (대화) 09:24, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 그리고 제발 트위트북도 세지 말아줘.그는 내가 편집한 것 중 하나를 여기 돌려놓았다.그건 좀 대담한 것 같아.SW3 5DL (대화) 09:27, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
그리고 나는 내 편집에 토크 페이지를 이용했다.
그것은 치료법이 말하는 것이 아니다.편집한 내용에 대한 대화 페이지 일치도가 없음.난 부메랑 블록을 받기를 망설이고 있어 네가 물러나 아드레날린이 가라앉게 하고 나중에 다시 살펴봐 주길 바라면서 말이야.이 시점에서 내가 보고 있는 것은 요점을 놓치려는 결심뿐이다.-맨드러스 인터뷰 09:38, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- SW3의 지속적인 블록 제안 및 지원 - 이 모든 실패는 단순히 장기적 문제의 또 다른 징후일 뿐이며, 그들이 여기에서 신뢰성 있게 편집할 수 있기 전에 해결되어야 한다는 것은 명백해졌다.트윗북스파세튜브 11:51, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- "트윙클 롤백 남용"에 대한 코멘트.아니, 반달리즘을 되돌리기 위한 기본적인 미디어위키 롤백인데, 그건 편집 요약을 남길 수 없기 때문이야.Twinkle은 편집 요약을 남길 수 있기 때문에 Twinkle 롤백(불행히도 모호하게 명명되고 반복적으로 이러한 혼란을 초래함)에는 동일한 금지 사항이 적용되지 않는다.JFG의 되돌리기는 편집 요약을 포함했고 트윙클을 남용한 것이 아니었다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 2017년 3월 19일(UTC) 12시 29분이라고 말했다[하라
- 트윙클 반달리즘 롤백 기능은 ES를 제공하지 않는다.Twinkle AGF와 Twinkle Rollball은 사용자 맞춤형 ES를 허용한다.L3X1 (distant writ) 14:01, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 비관리자 com.여기 위키피디아에서는 당신이 컨텐츠와 관련이 있다면 그것은 힘든 삶이다.나는 SW3에 2달 블록을 지원한다.L3X1 (distant write) 14:31, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 의견 - SW3가 자신의 사건을 어떻게 파기하고 있는지 고려하는 동안 며칠 동안 더 이상 논의하지 말 것을 제안하고, SW3는 그 후(또는 그 이전) 그의 불만을 철회한다.목표3000 (대화) 15:05, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 참고: SW3 5DL에는 0이 아닌 블록 로그가 있지만 2014년 이후, 그리고 그 1주 AE 블록 이전에는 2010년 이후 차단되지 않았다는 점에 유의하십시오.한 두 달은 나에게 과잉 살상으로 보인다.사건이나 블록의 필요성에 대해서는 언급하지 않는다는 점에 유의하십시오.-Ymblanter (대화) 16:59, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 코멘트 이 실드는 POV 파일온 콘텐츠 분쟁과 거의 유사하다.나는 이 기사를 거의 편집하지 않지만, 내가 보는 역사와 토크 페이지를 보면, 첫째, OP가 정기적으로 거기에서 이야기를 하고 있는 것이 분명하고 합리적인 방법이다.나는 또한 이 ANI 축제에서 어떤 줄무늬의 편집자들이 이상하게 불균형하다는 것을 안다.기사토크 페이지에 중립적인 메모를 달아 그곳에 있는 모든 사람들이 이 실마리를 알 수 있도록 할 것이다. 2017년 3월 19일(UTC) 22:52, talk [응답
- 코멘트 제안서의 차이점은 인신공격은 아니지만, Twitbook은 SW3 5DL을 바보로 언급하고 있다.그러나 나는 이미 트윗북에게 다시는 그러지 말라고 태연하게 부탁했다.나는 단지 그가 그렇게 할 경우를 대비해서, 또는 이것이 초범이 아니라면(나는 이 토론을 감시하지 않았으므로 나는 알 수 없을 것이다) 이런 말을 하고 있을 뿐이다.다크나이트2149 00:54, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 코멘트 - 어떤 것도 차단할 필요가 없다.송어를 자유롭게 사용할 수 있도록 지원하십시오. 특히 SW3 5DL은 우선 송어를 여기로 가져오고 Twitbookspacetube는 불꽃을 부채질할 수 있다.이 실 전체를 공 모양으로 말아 올려놓고 서둘러 보관하는 것을 추천한다. -- Scjesey (토크) 02:34, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 이때 부메랑에 반대한다.WP:IDHT는 "공동체의 합의가 더 생산적일 것이라고 결정한 후 오랫동안 주장이나 관점을 고수함으로써 논쟁을 부추기는 편집자에 대해 이야기한다"고 덧붙였다.나는 SW3가 이런 종류의 장기 분쟁을 벌인 기억이 없다.WP:BLUZON은 "토론에서 모든 논평에 답하는 것은 바람직하지 않다"고 말한다.그러한 요금을 뒷받침하는 정량적 데이터는 제공되지 않았다.WP:BATTL은 다른 편집자들이 누군가의 실수를 정리하는데 너무 많은 시간을 소비해야 하는 것에 대해 이야기한다.SW3는 너무 많은 실수를 하지 않았다.이 정책은 또한 이념 싸움을 하는 사람에 대해 이야기한다.SW3는 기사에 참여한 다수의 과거와 현재의 기고자들보다 이념 다툼이 적은 것으로 보인다.그 정책은 또한 원한을 품고 있는 사람에 대해 이야기한다.SW3는 분명히 다소 빨리 원한을 품게 되지만, 나는 그가 일단 인식된 도발이 끝나면 원한을 품는 것을 알지 못했다.그러나 그는 같은 편집자에 의해 인식된 그 이후의 도발행위에 비교적 민감해 보인다.일반적인 경우에, 그러한 행위는 만약 문제의 편집자가 그의 비행을 인정하도록 설득될 수 있다면, 1주일의 주제 금지를 받을 가치가 없다.SW3에 최소한 한 가지 혐의의 사실 여부를 판단하는 데 활용할 수 있는 설득력 있는 증거를 주는 것이 우리의 의무다.우리가 아직 그렇게 했는지 모르겠어.한편, 그가 받은 피드백을 이용하여 다른 편집자들의 행동에 대한 불만을 재평가할 것을 권한다. --Dervorguilla (토크) 09:07, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 논평 - 첫째, 나는 관리자들에게 감사하고 싶다. @El C, Boing!라고 Zebedee와 Ymblanter는 말했다. 몇 달 동안 나를 막지 않은 것에 대해.트윙클의 애매모호함, 2010년 이후 내가 자주 블록을 사용하지 않는 점 등을 감안하여 내가 무엇을 했어야 했는지 지적해 준 그들의 말에 감사했다.그 신중한 반응들이 이곳의 시스템에 대한 나의 믿음을 안심시켰다.둘째로, 나는 내 잘못과 더 나은 본성을 말하기 위해 이곳에 와준 기사에 대한 동료 편집자들에게 감사한다.@Objective3000:내가 다시 생각해 볼 수 있도록 코멘트를 잠시 멈춰달라고 부탁하면서, 합리적인 첫 편집자가 되어줘서 고마워.그것은 특히 그 당시 생성되고 있던 모든 부정성을 감안할 때 매우 사려 깊은 일이었다.그것은 많은 도움을 주었고 나는 그것에 매우 감사했다.@특정: 기사에 대한 나의 편집에 대한 코멘트를 가장 먼저 해줘서 고맙고, 기사 토크 페이지에 글을 올려줘서 고마워.여기 ANI에 목을 내밀기는 쉽지 않은데, 특히 일이 어두워지는 것 같을 때, 나는 네가 그렇게 했다는 것에 감탄한다.@Scjesey: 우리가 항상 의견이 맞는 것은 아니지만, 당신은 다른 사람들이 놓쳤을 만한 곳에 대해 말하기 위해 여기에 왔다.그것은 너를 매우 좋게 말해주고 나는 그것에 대해 감사해.그 송어를 내 페이지에 넣고 싶으면 내가 가져갈게, 네 말이 맞으니까, 내가 이걸 가져오지 말았어야 했어.기사토크 페이지는 이 문제를 해결할 곳이다.@Dervorguilla: 내 편집에 대한 당신의 사려 깊은 분석과 당신의 귀중한 피드백에 감사한다.이것은 가치 있는 학습 경험이었고 나는 동료 편집자들을 본다. 그리고 이 과정을 새로운 시각으로 본다.나는 JFG를 위한 그 블록에 대한 제안을 받아들일 것이다.내가 편집한 내용을 롤백하는 것은 기사 토크 페이지에서 가장 잘 관리된다.관리자가 이 문제가 해결되었다고 만족한다면, 관리자 중 한 명이 이 사례를 종결할 수 있을 것이다.모두에게 감사를 표합니다.SW3 5DL (대화) 15:11, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- @SW3 5DL: 평소와 다름없는 당신의 수준 높은 태도를 알고, 나는 당신이 이런 불평을 제기하고, 콘텐츠 논쟁에서 질타로 빠르게 번지고, 심지어 내가 건네준 도움의 손길마저 거절하는 것을 보고 정말 놀랐다.결국 당신의 완고함에 대한 나의 반응은 과도했고, 긴 부메랑 블록을 지지하기 전에 하루라도 기다렸어야 했다.그 사이에 구체적인 내용 문제가 해결됐다고 생각하지만 추가 발언이나 제안이 있다면 얼마든지 토크페이지에서 나나 커뮤니티에 물어봐.나는 또한 휴전을 선언해 준 경험 있는 행정가들에게 감사하며, 나는 아무런 조치도 취하지 않고 분쟁의 종결을 지지하며, 모든 사람들이 행복한 편집을 하기를 바란다!— JFG 17:54, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 추가 조치 없이 닫을 것을 권장한다.오늘 이 일을 돌이켜보면, 오해로 인해 강화된 콘텐츠 불화에 대한 지나친 대응이라고 말할 수 있을 것이다. 여기서 새로운 콘텐츠를 만들어내는 편집자들은 열정적인 사람들이 될 수 있다. 그것은 모두 그것의 일부분이다. 그리고 우리는 모두 불에 연료를 더 붓기 보다는 여기서 사물을 식히기 위해 노력해야 한다.불행히도, 나는 여기서 어떤 불필요한 공격성을 보는데, 한 편집자가 심지어 무기한 블록으로 에스컬레이션하고 인신공격에 가담하는 것을 보고 있다! (나는 그것을 더 이상 받아들이고 싶지 않지만, 깨끗한 시작 사용자, 당신은 당신이 누구인지 알고 있고 당신이 여기에 기여하고 싶다면, 디-에스칼라에 의한 분쟁을 해결하도록 노력해야 한다고 제안한다.그렇지 않으면 ANI를 멀리하고 좀 더 경험이 풍부하고 현명한 머리에게 맡겨야 한다.충분히 물고기가 처리되었고, 초기 불만이 사실상 철회되었으며, SW3 5DL의 위에 언급된 내용은 우리가 지금 예방할 필요가 없다는 것을 보여준다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:52, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[하라
SW3 5DL의 카운터 제안
Twinkle 롤백 중단 및 남용을 위한 JFG 지원 블록. 그는 트윙클을 학대하고 그 과정을 학대해왔다. 그는 WP를 사용하고 있다.여기서 BULG 전술. 그리고 내가 앞서 언급했듯이, 그들은 논쟁의 여지가 있는 "동정"을 내가 그것을 옮긴 바로 그 곳에 놔두었다. 그들은 방금 "앵커스트리"라는 단어를 추가했다. 내 편집에는 아무 문제가 없다. 그들은 확실히 집단적으로 뒤로 밀려날 자격이 없다. 그리고 공공 기물 파손의 어떤 증거도 없이 다른 사람의 편집을 취소하는 편집자는 파괴적이다. 그는 그 페이지의 경고를 알고 있다. 이것은 가치 있는 행동을 차단하는 것이다.SW3 5DL (대화) 08:24, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
트위트북 서포트 블록.방금 ANI에서 내 편집 내용을 바꿨어나는 이것이 그들의 논쟁의 정도를 보여준다고 생각한다.SW3 5DL (대화) 08:35, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
@Twitbookspacetube:편집한 내용을 분리하지 마십시오.SW3 5DL (대화) 09:06, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
FacepalmTwitbookspacetube 08:39, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[하라
OP는 현재 ANI에서 서브헤더에 대한 리턴 워링 중임
OP는 부메랑을 지지하지 않고 OP만의 새로운 제안을 지지하고 있다.그래서 혼란을 피하기 위해 부제목이 필요하다.두 편집자가 서브헤더 "OP별 제안"을 삽입했지만 OP(SW3)가 반복적으로 서브헤더를 삭제했음을 보여주는 편집 기록을 참조하십시오.[50] [51] 야.Anythingyyouwant (대화) 09:12, 2017년 3월 19일 (UTC)[
- 내가 또 옮겼어. 그리고 그들이 정말 전쟁을 편집하고 싶다면 그렇게 해.그런 공공 기물 파손 행위가 가독성을 방해하는 것을 용납하지 않을 것이다. --타라지 (토크) 05:43, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
Jpop73
| 상황이 해결되었다.중립성talk 03:51, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
Jpop73 편집자가 공개 블로그 링크를 통해 나를 괴롭히자고 제안하는 이유는 그가 자신을 WP에 보고하는 것 외에 CSD로 재창조했다는 그의 페이지를 우연히 발견했기 때문이다.코인, 내가 같은 일을 한 지 1년 후, 그의 많은 기사들은 같은 이유로 삭제되었다(공인성 가이드라인을 통과하지 못했다는 이유로).박도니(토크) 01:42, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 박 변호사님, 이미 제 변호사에게 스크린샷을 보내드렸고, 당신의 비난으로 저를 사이버 괴롭히려고 했던 당신의 이전 시도도요.나는 그것이 WP의 정의에 해당한다고 확신한다.2017년 3월 20일 03:30 (UTC)[
- 네 말이 맞아.차단됨. --닐N 03:34, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC]
템플릿의 대형 장애물 파괴 행위:인포박스인
| (관리자 이외의 폐쇄) 사용자 차단, 템플릿 보호됨.클루스케 (대화) 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC) 12시 43분 [ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
Shahbaz khan att (대화 · 기여) 반복적으로 Template로 monke:경고에도 불구하고 Infobox person (23만 페이지 이상에서 사용됨)배터넛 (대화) 11시 43분, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 문서 하위 페이지일 뿐인데도 사용자가 막혔다.세미(semi)를 좀 발랐는데 --zzuzz 11:50, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[하라
반복 복사vio
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 악플링된 페이지 및 일주일 동안 차단된 사용자.클루스케 (대화) 22:18, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
이 편집 시리즈에서 설탄90(토크 · 기여 · 삭제 기여 · 페이지 이동 · 차단 사용자 · 블록 로그)은 '저작권 © 2015 자말 모하메드 칼리지'가 있는 자말 모하메드 칼리지 웹사이트의 '호스텔' 섹션의 본문을 그대로 베꼈다.각 페이지 하단의 "모든 권한 예약" (페이지를 확인하려면 "호스텔"을 클릭해야 함 - JavaScript 탐색으로 인해 직접 링크가 작동하지 않음).그는 그 페이지의 이미지를 하원에 올려 기사에 추가하기도 했지만 그것은 별개의 문제다.
나는 카피비오를 되돌리고 그의 페이지에 그 문제를 설명하면서 경고문을 남겼다.
그는 이제 아무런 설명도 없이, 그리고 토크 페이지 통지에 대한 반응도 없이 나의 반전을 되돌렸다.
보통은 되돌리지는 않겠지만, 나는 필요 이상으로 노골적인 저작권 위반을 제자리에 두고 싶지 않기 때문에 침해하는 글을 다시 한번 삭제했다.
더 이상 무응답 위반자와 편집전을 할 생각이 없어 추가 위반이 없도록 행정조치를 강구하고 있다.그의 토크 페이지에서 이것은 결코 이 편집자의 저작권 침해의 첫 번째 사건이 아니라는 것을 알게 될 것이다. --RexxS (talk) 20:20, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 수정본이 삭제되고 사용자가 일주일 동안 차단됨.RexxS가 말하듯이 사용자는 카피비오에 대한 이전 기여를 삭제했으며, 이 경우 경고를 완전히 무시했다.베스넛 (대화)20:34, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
사용자 윌리엄 호칭제
| 관리자 작업이 필요하지 않음드라마를 자극하기보다는 쉬운 수정/점검을 시도하는 것이 항상 좋다.모든 편집자에게 적용됨. --NeilN 15:05, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
오늘 아침에 User에 의해 몇 가지 수정 사항을 되돌렸다.윌리엄JE.그 중 한 명[52]에서, 그는 NFL 신인인 닭 프레스콧이 페이지가 없고 눈에 띄지 않았다고 진술했는데, 이것은 그의 기본 능력에 의문을 제기한다.이후 사용자:WilliamJE는 나를 괴롭히기 시작했고, 나를 템플리트로 만들고, 내 샌드박스[54][55][56]를 반복해서 편집하기 시작했다.자코나 (토크) 14:37, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 그의 샌드박스 편집에서, 불평하는 사람은 나를 파괴적이라고 부른다.그것은 WP를 위반하는 것이다.NPA 및 WP:NPASAND.그 호걸은 나에게 불리하지 않다. 그 반대는 아니다.나는 이 사용자에 대해 인신공격을 한 것이 아니라 이 신고인에 의해 여러 번 인신공격을 당한 적이 있다.윌리엄, 진정 고소부가 지붕에 있는 거야?2017년 3월 20일 14시 41분 (UTC)[하라
- 또한 이 불만 신고자는 내 토크 페이지에 ANI 공지사항을 게시한 적이 없다는 것을 지적할 수 있다.사용자가 다시 대화 페이지에 게시하지 말라고 해도 ANI 불평에 대한 명백한 위반임...윌리엄, 진정 고소부가 지붕에 있는 거야?14시 43분, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[하라
- @JaconaFrereer:논평 없이 단순히 위키링크를 할 수 있었는데 왜 그런 편집요약과 이 ANI 보고서로 불필요한 드라마를 부추겼을까? --NeilNtalk to me 14:47, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[하라
- 왜냐하면 그가 사용한 편집 요약본은 단순히 출처를 찾는 데 완전한 실패가 아니라 페이지가 존재하지 않는다는 잘못된 주장을 보여주었고, 그는 그 내용을 삭제했기 때문이다.자코나 (토크) 2017년 3월 20일 14:51 (UTC)[
- 및 사용자:NeilN, 네 말이 맞아, 정보를 복구하는 것이 더 적절했을 거야.사용자 편집에 응해서 조금 헐뜯어서 미안해.자코나 (토크) 2017년 3월 20일 14시 57분 (UTC)[
- 내 샌드박스에 있는 노트에 관해서, 나는 단지 그것을 정확히 주장하는 ANI 토론을 언급했을 뿐이다.그게 어떻게 인신공격이야?자코나 (토크) 14:54, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC) 검색이 안 되고, 단지 내가 사용하기 위해서입니다.자코나 (토크) 14:55, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 2014년 1월부터 인용필요 태그가 붙은 비연계 이름을 붙였는데 '노력 없다'는 불만이십니까? --닐Ntalk to me 14:56, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[
- 왜냐하면 그가 사용한 편집 요약본은 단순히 출처를 찾는 데 완전한 실패가 아니라 페이지가 존재하지 않는다는 잘못된 주장을 보여주었고, 그는 그 내용을 삭제했기 때문이다.자코나 (토크) 2017년 3월 20일 14:51 (UTC)[
비불
| (비관리자 폐쇄) 관리 조치 필요 없음, 송어 발행.클루스케 (대화) 23시 5분, 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC)[ |
- 다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
라이시사와 관련하여 여기 닫힌 실에 이어, 나는 유료 편집 계획을 실행하는 사람에게 다시 스포트라이트를 돌리고 싶다.
비불 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)
제재가 없는 경우, 이 편집자는 편집하기 위해 지불된 문서에 링크 스팸을 계속 추가한다. 이 차이점을 참조하십시오.이것은 그들이 유급 편집 작업을 중단하겠다는 어떤 약속도 훼손하고 (그들이 그런 약속을 했다고 가정한다) 그리고 그들이 정확히 똑같은 일을 하고 있을 때 라이시사와 같은 운명을 겪지 못할 이유가 있는지 알고 싶다.Escripto347 (대화) 2017년 3월 20일 (UTC) 10시 42분 [
- Can we add "marketingland.com" to the spam blacklist? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:47, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Is there evidence that Vipul's work relates to the links they used? You can email me evidence that cannot be placed here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've yet to see any evidence that Vipul & Co. were adding spam or referral links. Plenty of accusations, but little evidence. Sam Walton (talk) 10:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, the editor himself has admitted openly that he's paid a certain amount per 500 page views - I don't see how that's an "accusation." Exemplo347 (talk) 10:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Exemplo347: Could you provide a diff or link? I must have missed that. Sam Walton (talk) 11:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, firstly there's his user page, and secondly his own site details his scheme. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Quote or diff the exact passage, if you will. *** I put all the links up on COIN—Dive in! El_C 11:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That page doesn't say what you think it says—it says he paid Wikipedia article writers by view of the Wikipedia page (e.g. he rewarded people for creating high-demand pages) and says nothing about external links. I'm struggling to see how Adweek and Marketing Land could possibly not be considered legitimate sources for an article about online advertising, especially in light of the fact that they weren't replacing existing legitimate citations but being added to support a previously uncited statement. ‑ Iridescent 11:14, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- My point is that the editor is still attempting to drive traffic toward pages he's created for payment. He's been very open about everything he's doing, so why has one of his employees been indef blocked while he's still able to do exactly the same thing? Exemplo347 (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- "the editor is still attempting to drive traffic toward pages he's created for payment" You appear to be shifting the goalposts here. What do you mean? He didn't create that page, and while it's true Riceissa made a large number of edits to the page, I'm struggling to see anything wrong with Vipul's edit, so I have re-added it. Sam Walton (talk) 11:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, he's included it on his list of pages here - User:Vipul#List of pages I have explicitly sponsored creation of or contributions to... Exemplo347 (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- From what I can tell, Vipul agreed to stop paying other users for their edits for the time being, he didn't agree to stop contributing himself, so I still struggle to see a problem here. Sam Walton (talk) 11:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, he's included it on his list of pages here - User:Vipul#List of pages I have explicitly sponsored creation of or contributions to... Exemplo347 (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- "the editor is still attempting to drive traffic toward pages he's created for payment" You appear to be shifting the goalposts here. What do you mean? He didn't create that page, and while it's true Riceissa made a large number of edits to the page, I'm struggling to see anything wrong with Vipul's edit, so I have re-added it. Sam Walton (talk) 11:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- My point is that the editor is still attempting to drive traffic toward pages he's created for payment. He's been very open about everything he's doing, so why has one of his employees been indef blocked while he's still able to do exactly the same thing? Exemplo347 (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, firstly there's his user page, and secondly his own site details his scheme. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Exemplo347: Could you provide a diff or link? I must have missed that. Sam Walton (talk) 11:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, the editor himself has admitted openly that he's paid a certain amount per 500 page views - I don't see how that's an "accusation." Exemplo347 (talk) 10:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've yet to see any evidence that Vipul & Co. were adding spam or referral links. Plenty of accusations, but little evidence. Sam Walton (talk) 10:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Is there evidence that Vipul's work relates to the links they used? You can email me evidence that cannot be placed here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- The edit seems unexceptional to me. An ANI report on this matter was just closed. Opening another ANI again so quickly is out of line. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:29, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- My original question still stands - why is Vipul still allowed to edit when he's clearly not here to improve Wikipedia? Exemplo347 (talk) 11:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Because it's not clear. Fact is, there probably still remains a rather lengthy process to determine the status of both Vipul and his Enterprise. It's unlikely to happen in a flash. El_C 11:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, at the very least, there should be some sort of warning for Vipul, preventing him from editing articles that have been created or edited as part of his scheme. Per WP:COI, editors with a declared Conflict of Interest are supposed to be limited to making suggestions on Article Talk pages. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:47, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Does Vipul have a COI in regards to Google Surveys? He paid someone else to write content there, which is now fully disclosed at the talk page. I can't see that he serves to gain anything by editing that article, so I'm not actually convinced he has a COI there. Regardless (even if he does have a COI) there's nothing prohibiting him from continuing to edit the article given that he has declared anything remotely resembling a COI already. I can't help but feel like you're looking for any reason to stop this user making edits, but right now he appears to be making sure every edited article is properly tagged with a COI/Paid notice and is making entirely uncontroversial edits like the one you flagged here, which seems quite reasonable to me. Sam Walton (talk) 11:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, he's paid someone else to write content there. Yes, it's disclosed. That means WP:PAY applies to his edits there. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:PAY would appear to apply to Riceissa, I can't see that it applies to Vipul. He does not have financial ties to Google Surveys, and is not being paid by them - or anyone else - to make edits to that article. Sam Walton (talk) 12:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:PAY would actually cover someone who pays someone else to make edits, if you read the wording of the first paragraph. The reason it subsequently concentrates on the recipients of payments is that is the most common form of COI we deal with. Saying that, I agree entirely with you that there is nothing wrong with those edits anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:PAY would appear to apply to Riceissa, I can't see that it applies to Vipul. He does not have financial ties to Google Surveys, and is not being paid by them - or anyone else - to make edits to that article. Sam Walton (talk) 12:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, he's paid someone else to write content there. Yes, it's disclosed. That means WP:PAY applies to his edits there. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Does Vipul have a COI in regards to Google Surveys? He paid someone else to write content there, which is now fully disclosed at the talk page. I can't see that he serves to gain anything by editing that article, so I'm not actually convinced he has a COI there. Regardless (even if he does have a COI) there's nothing prohibiting him from continuing to edit the article given that he has declared anything remotely resembling a COI already. I can't help but feel like you're looking for any reason to stop this user making edits, but right now he appears to be making sure every edited article is properly tagged with a COI/Paid notice and is making entirely uncontroversial edits like the one you flagged here, which seems quite reasonable to me. Sam Walton (talk) 11:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I recommend that this thread be closed as there is nothing to act on presented in the OP and this risks becoming a long distraction. With a trout for Exemplo347, who is well-intentioned but has made several unsupportable statements here; more smoke than fire. Jytdog (talk) 21:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Blocked user vandalizing their talk page
| (non-admin closure) talk page access revoked. Kleuske (talk) 23:17, 20 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not sure if this is the right place to report this, but an IP user(2.96.247.3) keeps vandalizing their talk page, see [58], [59], and [60]. XboxGamer22408talk to me 22:56, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Here is fine for this sort of issue. I've revoked talkpage access. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Blocked for restoring a question at the humanities refdesk
OP mistaken for refdesk troll; sorted now. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:40, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
After I restored a question which seemed perfectly legitimate at the Refdesk that was removed as trolling, I was blocked for long-term abuse, without any explanation. I want the person who blocked me to apologize and/or explain to me how what I did was wrong. The question didn't seem to violate any Refdesk policies and was an answerable one.Thanks76.168.98.68 (talk) 08:07, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- It was from a long term vandal. Don't restore things like that. It gives people reason to believe you are the vandal. I doubt you'll get an apology. --Tarage (talk) 08:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
A long-term vandal? Well, if that's the case I'm sorry. But the question seemed legit.76.168.98.68 (talk) 08:19, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- If you look at Special:Contributions/Azimuth2469 you can see that the new editor posting the original had already been blocked. As the RefDesk does have a resident troll with just such a posting style, then I'd support that block. As you were innocent (and per AGF I'm required to believe that of you anyway) then I can only apologize on WP's behalf that you were caught in the crossfire here. It wasn't personal though - it was conflating your post with the same troll, in an environment with just terribly few clues to be going on.
- I'd suggest that if you're interested in WP, it's worth creating an account. An account is just an anonymous as an IP (in fact, more so) and it allows you to establish some reputation as a genuine editor, which helps to avoid such situations. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Favonian, you need to communicate with the blocked editor when levying a block; blocking without explanation was the basis for desysopping longtime admin Can't sleep, clown will eat me a while back. I'm not trying to threaten you or suggest that one incident warrants some sort of sanctions against you — I mention this simply as grounds for saying that you must explain your blocks, if nothing else with {{uw-block}}. Nyttend (talk) 11:23, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Nyttend: Heck, no. Do that for the usual cases, sure, but for LTAs who use thousands of IPs that's actually counter-productive. There's no need to leave a block message for some innocent user to see as the LTA instantly flips to a new IP. --NeilN talk to me 12:52, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- As for "not trying to threaten", you could have fooled me. ;) I must apologize to the IP for the miscarriage of justice, but agree with Neil regarding the utter futility in communicating with the legions of socks, knitted by the likes of the Ref Desk Antisemitic Troll and Nsmutte. Sorry for the late reply – I was temporarily Irish yesterday. Favonian (talk) 16:42, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Favonian, you need to communicate with the blocked editor when levying a block; blocking without explanation was the basis for desysopping longtime admin Can't sleep, clown will eat me a while back. I'm not trying to threaten you or suggest that one incident warrants some sort of sanctions against you — I mention this simply as grounds for saying that you must explain your blocks, if nothing else with {{uw-block}}. Nyttend (talk) 11:23, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Edits by 70.44.233.118
This user is involved in disruptive editing on a number of pages, including one which involved a sensitive legal issue. Please take the time to review talk and contribs. This user is most likely WP:NOTHERE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.44.233.118Edaham (talk) 00:44, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reverted this month's talk page posts and gave the IP a final warning. --NeilN talk to me 00:55, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Disruptive Editing by 107.191.1.166
This IP address has changed The Cabin in the Woods (edit talk history links watch logs) genre from horror comedy to horror 4 times, without any discussion. This goes against the hidden message left on the page which states: "DO NOT CHANGE THE GENRE WITHOUT DISCUSSION ON THE TALK PAGE. THERE ARE NUMEROUS SOURCES CALLING THIS FILM A HORROR COMEDY". I have reverted their edits 3 times and they have reverted mine 3 times so I believe that neither of us have edit warred. However, the current revision of the page (see [61]) is their version of the article which states the genre as horror. I do not want to revert this edit because of obvious reasons of not wanting to edit war. However, as said earlier, I believe they have not edit warred themselves so I cannot report them to WP:AN3. I have tried to bring up a discussion (see [62], 2nd to last message) but they have not responded. So, what should I do? Does this warrant a block? Or have I misunderstood the definition of edit warring, and that they have, in fact, edit warred. I would like some help on this matter. Thank you. Tompop888 (talk) (contribs) 05:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Edit warring is repeatedly reverting another editor. It doesn't necessarily require four reverts, but reporting an editor to WP:AN3 generally does require breaking the three revert rule. I warned the IP editor for edit warring. It doesn't look like there's been much discussion on the talk page in the past few months, so maybe you could start a discussion there. You could also ask for input from uninvolved editors at WikiProject Film through a neutrally-worded message, such as, "There's a dispute over the genre of The Cabin in the Woods on Talk:The Cabin in the Woods. Please help find consensus." In this case, it seems like the IP editor is blanking sourced content, which is disruptive, but this is still a content dispute and subject to 3RR. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Nergaal at ITNC
| User appears, so far, to have got the message. This report can always be restored if such editing reoccurs. Black Kite (talk) 10:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I come here reluctantly but I feel it is necessary to address the comments of Nergaal at WP:ITNC. I have posted on their user talk page regarding this but they have offered no reply. They strongly disagreed with the posting of this ITN item regarding the Leekfrith torcs- which is their right to do- citing "US/British centrism" among other issues they saw. The event was posted to ITN regardless as it gained consensus per the processes used there. Nergaal does not seem to be able to move on from the posting of the item, and proceeds to disrupt ITN with their pointy comments on many nominations subsequent to the posting. They usually have to do with their views on bias and the "jewelry nomination"(the torcs). There are certainly legitimate concerns about bias here but these comments are not productive to the end of addressing bias.
- [63] "this has nothing to do with the UK so it shouldn't be posted /s"
- [64] "An actually important news that didn't happen in the UK, so using the rationales from below I have to call this an oppose /s."
- [65] "Are you trying to say something published in Nature does not pass our threshold for reliable? Are you saying PR advertisements by the British Museum that get absolutely no review are more reliable? Jesus."
- [66] "How is totally irrelevant topics when one is geology and the other is archaeology? One has a peer-reviewed process available to anyone, one is a PR-stunt by a profit-driven entity? He literally said there are many doubts about this. The presenters of the paper are not independent because it is in their interest to spin it as a big discovery. To accept the hype uncritically would be journalism. He applied exactly 0% of this yesterday. Why aren't we flipping coins to see what gets posted if we aren't going to bother with some consistencies?"
- [67] "Maybe you forgot that yesterday people said "of international importance", "cool stuff", "A notable historical find", "widely reported, globally, as significant", "unique find and truly historic", "If reliable sources are used and consensus exists", "this story is far too interesting to be condemned to the esoteric". Which one applies less to this story to the yesterday's one? Cause that one took only 4h to post at a 7-2 vote with ample oppose reasonings, but this one has almost a day and 9-2 vote and isn't on the mainpage yet. Origin of life is less interesting than iron age jewelry from Britain?"
- [68] "You are saying that the jewelry was unanimously agreed that it wasn't the oldest jewelry in Britain (on small corner of the world) and was less than 2/3 old as the actual record holder (~2500 years vs 4000 years oldest evidence) for is worthwhile ITN, but this evidence for earliest-fucking life that gives an average age estimate right at the previous estimate (no uncertainty range given there) but at its upper limit puts it right when the oceans formed is not ITN worthy? Dude you should become a lawyer or something."
- [69] "I agree with Luke, this has nothing to do with the UK, not visually appealing, not described by the British Museum as a "unique find" /s."
- [70] "Support, probably the largest archeological discovery in a long time; until the British Museum takes it and then gets renominated here when they put it up for visitors near the golden torcs."
- [71] "I was not talking about you, I was talking about consensus. If it was up to people like you all archeological trash finds from Britain would get posted, while colossal statues and alike would never make the main page."
I am not the only user to feel these comments are unproductive; four other users have posted to Nergaal's user talk page asking them to refrain from further comments.
I seek no specific remedy; just something that results in Nergaal stopping their pointy comments and actually work towards addressing the legitimate issue of bias. 331dot (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Notification made [72] 331dot (talk) 19:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- What I am supposed to do now? Nergaal (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Drop the stick, stop making pointy comments, and move on. --NeilN talk to me 20:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yep, that. If not, I imagine the next step is to seek for a topic ban to prevent you from contributing at ITNC. After that, it'd be more widespread, i.e. you get blocked, then banned. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I endorse this ANI discussion. Nergaal can't seem to stop talking about the Leekfrith Torcs and how we need to feature other things, along with how Wikipedia has an Anglo-British bias or something along the lines. This seriously needs to stop. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Further edits along this subject line seem to have stopped, and I doubt anything further will come from this discussion. Suggest close.--WaltCip (talk) 12:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @WaltCip: - I didn't want to be the one to have to defend this, but I think that we should do something about this. It just doesn't stop and it's purely disruptive at this point. I think a warning is too weak because of how previous warnings failed, but a TBAN is too strong because he hasn't done anything on that scale where it needs to result in a topic ban. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 13:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Further edits along this subject line seem to have stopped, and I doubt anything further will come from this discussion. Suggest close.--WaltCip (talk) 12:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Probrooks
| The proposed topic ban on alternative medicine has been enacted. --NeilN talk to me 15:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Probrooks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Probrooks came to my attention when they linked to this blog written by someone who is obviously not a doctor, to argue that real scientists think that our bodies contain invisible channels of magical energy that ties parts of our bodies to specific times of day and five of the planet in our solar system.
Looking into their contributions, I see that Probrooks was quite upset that we do not tell people to believe that there's some kind of magical toxin in foods because chemicals. I found them defending claims that watered down flowery brandy will cure disease because it hasn't been tested enough to disprove it yet. For God's sake, Probrooks even thinks that we shouldn't say it's pseudoscience to claim that pretty rocks will magically cure cancer, because... it's admittedly not science? Apparently, real science is just "skeptic dogma". Oh, and Probrooks thinks the anti-vaxxers might have a point.
Now, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture is an option, though not ones I can take myself (as I reverted the user twice at the article where they first caught my attention). No consensus would be needed for a topic ban, all that would be needed is for an uninvolved admin to:
- Post the filled out Template:AE sanction on Probrooks's talk page
- Put an entry at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/Log
But! In looking for the previous diffs I've provided, I see this and this, which have me concerned that topic ban relating to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience will eventually be necessary. They haven't done any editing in pseudoscientific matters outside of alternative medicine since being notified about those sanctions, though. Also, a topic ban on both alternative medicine and pseudoscience in general would cover 99% the areas where they edit.
In short, Probrooks is wasting the time and patience of other users (at best!), if not rather unrepentantly pushing for magical thinking that discourages people from getting real medical treatment. Whatever does the community (or just an uninvolved admin) think is best? Ian.thomson (talk) 12:21, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- This came about because some editors wish to proclaim that "Acupuncture meridians are not real." My assertian is that there are scientists who are researching acupuncture meridians, it would be unwise to be so firm and definite in the wording, as it actually looks quite foolish and disrepectful to mnay people. I don't discount the existence of meridians, as it is an oriental system of medicine which is growing around the world and many find benefit in. I do not believe wikipedia should be telling people what to think, re: meridians and only wanted to point out the extent research on this matter.
- As for the rest of it, this is just putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying flower essences cure disease, if you actually read what I say, I say they may be able to treat emotional conditions. I'm not claiming crystal healing is going to cure cancer, I'm saying it is not a science in the first place, and so how can it be "pseudo-science"? What are you really saying about toxins? Are you disputing there are not synthetic chemicals in our food stuffs? Did you not read the links provided there? These are not "magical toxins", but real toxins that are produced by industry that find their way into food.
- I am simply trying to help wikipedia be more neutral, look into respectful and appropriate usage of language when it comes to contentious topic areas and help maintain a balanced point of view. I believe as many do that Wikipedia is let down by its coverage of "alternative medicine", I'm not pushing for "magical thinking" as you so inelegently say here, but actually trying to play by the rules, trying to help wikipedia not be so biased and one sided in communicating information.
- Just in: 1, 2. I think we may actually have a WP:CIR-issue, here. Kleuske (talk) 12:45, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- For the record: This closed section was my previous interaction with this editor, in which they showed up at an article talk page to (by their own admission) proselytize for the highly fringe, conspiracy theory-laced subject of the article, and not to propose or discuss any changes to it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:42, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Proposed topic ban
- Propose topic ban from alternative medicine, per WP:ARBCAM. When reliable mainstream scientific publications document a shift in the scientific consensus with regard to alternative medicine, Wikipedia will write about it. The community has rightly lost its patience with editors who sit here trying to civilly (or not) push other points of view regarding science and medicine, based on internet blogs, "stuff that everyone knows", and things that "some scientists believe". Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:14, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Probrooks == WP:PROFRINGE. A topic ban would be for the good of the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree of coure, wikipedia should be neutral and fair to all points of view, I believe. There are many points of view, some of which are relevant and valid in any discussion. What I see happening a lot of the time, is wording and the pushing of an overt point of view, which is not balanced, fair minded or respectful. I am not necessarily trying to "push" a fringe point of view, but I think it is important to keep in mind how controversial content is communicated, a lot of time a line is crossed when sentences like "Meridians are not Real" are used. Who is actually keeping a check upon this kind of editing, which results in articles which I think most intelligent people are going to have a hard time taking seriously, when a particular point of view is pushed, even though that view may be predominant in mainstream science. Mainstream science is not the end all and be all of what is real, to think otherwise is called scientism. When it comes to acupuncture, which is a part of the global human culture, I think there is a certain level of respect and civility towards other people's beliefs and practises which is important in a community minded endeavour like wikipedia. Probrooks (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, you've got it completely wrong. Wikipedia does not provide what you call "neutral and fair" (i.e. equal) coverage to all points of view. We consider what the consensus of reliable sources say to be true, and we reflect that in a "neutral and fair" (i.e. balanced) way. You say that "meridians are not real" is wrong, but science disagrees with you. You say "mainstream science is not the end all and be all of what is real", but reliable sources disagree. You say "there is a certain level of respect and civility towards other people's beliefs and practises (etc.)" and you are right about that. It's perfectly decent and respectable to say that acupuncture is a form of alternative therapy that some cultures have practiced for thousands of years, and it's perfectly decent and respectable to say that modern medicine finds no merit in these therapies; those two facts are equally true. What's not respectful is misappropriating a cultural practice to tell people that there's magic lines under their skin that can be manipulated to cure their cancer, because there's not and they can't. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:54, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ahem, Ivanvector, "meridians are not real" is not something that science disagrees with. ;-) --bonadeacontributions talk 18:03, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Bonadea: clarified what I meant ;) Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:06, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ahem, Ivanvector, "meridians are not real" is not something that science disagrees with. ;-) --bonadeacontributions talk 18:03, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, you've got it completely wrong. Wikipedia does not provide what you call "neutral and fair" (i.e. equal) coverage to all points of view. We consider what the consensus of reliable sources say to be true, and we reflect that in a "neutral and fair" (i.e. balanced) way. You say that "meridians are not real" is wrong, but science disagrees with you. You say "mainstream science is not the end all and be all of what is real", but reliable sources disagree. You say "there is a certain level of respect and civility towards other people's beliefs and practises (etc.)" and you are right about that. It's perfectly decent and respectable to say that acupuncture is a form of alternative therapy that some cultures have practiced for thousands of years, and it's perfectly decent and respectable to say that modern medicine finds no merit in these therapies; those two facts are equally true. What's not respectful is misappropriating a cultural practice to tell people that there's magic lines under their skin that can be manipulated to cure their cancer, because there's not and they can't. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:54, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree of coure, wikipedia should be neutral and fair to all points of view, I believe. There are many points of view, some of which are relevant and valid in any discussion. What I see happening a lot of the time, is wording and the pushing of an overt point of view, which is not balanced, fair minded or respectful. I am not necessarily trying to "push" a fringe point of view, but I think it is important to keep in mind how controversial content is communicated, a lot of time a line is crossed when sentences like "Meridians are not Real" are used. Who is actually keeping a check upon this kind of editing, which results in articles which I think most intelligent people are going to have a hard time taking seriously, when a particular point of view is pushed, even though that view may be predominant in mainstream science. Mainstream science is not the end all and be all of what is real, to think otherwise is called scientism. When it comes to acupuncture, which is a part of the global human culture, I think there is a certain level of respect and civility towards other people's beliefs and practises which is important in a community minded endeavour like wikipedia. Probrooks (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why do you make the assumption that there is no possibility that acupuncture meridians are not real? Why do the lines have to be "magic", perhaps they are actual? Perhaps they exist as thousands of practitioners say they do. So you are saying all these practitioners are deluded? I would suggest that logic would tell us there is some element here which is true, otherwise how could acupuncture be growing around the world if it was just placebo?
- What you are saying about modern medicine finding no merit in acupuncture is incorrect. Many medicial doctors around the world utilise acupuncture and in Brazil for example, acupuncture is mainstream medicine that is recognised by the government as any other form of medicine. I'm not saying that people can cure their cancer with acupuncture as I actually do not believe it is that useful in the treatment of cancer. All I'm saying is that there is a fairer line than "Meridians are not real anatomical structures: scientists have found no evidence that supports their existence", and it is: "Mainstream modern science has yet to discover any evidence to support the existence of meridians." THAT line is the consensus of reliable sources in a "neutral and fair" (i.e. balanced) way.
- What modern day science understands in 2017 is obviously not the actual truth and should never be painted as such, especially when almost no science has been carried out to actually discover meridians for example. And yet there are some scientists who have been exploring the primo vascular system as a candidate for the meridian system in Korea starting from the 1960's. I'm not saying this should necessarily be included in the article, but its useful to know there are some scientists working on this, if you at all care about exploring this matter. Probrooks (talk) 12:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Probrooks: - I'd just like to point out that, in relation to your 'thousand practitioner' comment: There are thousands of people who adamantly believe the earth is flat. Thousands believe that we never went to the moon. There are probably over a million people who believe that global warming is a 'Chinese hoax'. Just because a large majority of people belive something doesn't mean it's true. The entire continent of North America could say that it's possibly to land on the sun and build a house; doesn't mean it's correct or factual. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 12:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support As soon as "western cultural imperialism" is invoked and (unnamed) other editors are accused of hijacking wikipedia, we have an issue and a remedy is called for. Kleuske (talk) 14:45, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - Obvious. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reluctant Support I think Probrooks means well, I really do; but we cannot give equal or even significant space to hypotheses that have zero scientific support behind them. That's classic WP:UNDUE. "Scientists are working on them" is a specious argument; once they find some hard evidence, we can talk about it. Until then, I fear that the rest of us are wasting too much precious time making sure that readers understand that things like meridians are hypothetical at best, at least at the present time. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 20:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. When someone has such a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works, all that ensues is a huge time sink for those who do understand and are trying to get on with it. Blackmane (talk) 20:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Le sigh. A perfectly nice person, but unable to either understand or abide by our policies on fringe subjects, and by this point it doesn't matter which of the two it is, because patient efforts to explain are getting nowhere. Guy (Help!) 21:32, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. I cannot tell you how offensive that anti-vaxxing claim is. No more. --Tarage (talk) 22:25, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. I've noticed Probooks taking a pro fringe stance for some time now. It's never disrupted any discussion I've been in, so I've never had reason to take it here, but the diffs provided above paint the picture of an editor who has an agenda to pursue. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:32, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- So, he's trying to turn the place into Hippypedia? ... Yeah. I'll...um...I'll show myself out. HalfShadow 00:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hey! What's wrong with hippies? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- They're filthy and they smell funny!!! ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hey! What's wrong with hippies? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support at a minimum. My reasons are given above. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Advocates should not be given free rein to waste the time of good editors with suggestions that meridians are anything but an interesting idea from many centuries before medicine became a useful discipline. Please think about how articles on other topics should be written—would you want to read about a topic you were unfamiliar with knowing that it is based on views contrary to evidence? Johnuniq (talk) 06:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Question - I'm just scrolling through and this discussion caught my eye. I was wondering if this TBAN extends to fringe science and protoscience, or possibly religious topics? I don't think we're specifying the extent of this TBAN well enough. Anybody can be banned from pseudoscience topics and go right to the articles of whatever religion they get their ideas from and disrupt over there. An entire ban from religion and science would be grossly inappropriate, but a weak ban would be just as ineffective. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 12:24, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Procedural support I didn't think it was necessary to comment here given how obvious the outcome, but once I started clicking on the links (I actually thought from reading the OP that it seemed really weird that this problem hadn't come up before, and before I noticed how new the account was I started down a rabbit hole) I discovered that the Meridian (Chinese medicine) article had a coupla problems that seem to have absolutely nothing to do with Probrooks. When I tried to fix a few of them, one of my fixes was reverted by a user who appears to be on the right side of this dispute (although they have not posted in this thread yet). I pinged them on the talk page and am awaiting a reply, but I'm a little paranoid now that some people might misinterpret my motivations as a result of this, so I might as well cast a !vote here if only to demonstrate that that's not the case. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:29, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support -
Am I allowed to vote here as an experienced editor or must I be an admin? If I can't, just ignore.This is getting out of hand. This user is involved in a massive discussion at Meridian (Chinese medicine) where (I think he) spouts fringe theories and links to 'sources' of experimentation done by pseudoscientists and the country of North Korea. He then goes on to accuse another editor of trying to TBAN him because he believes in alternative theories, and how the TBAN will be done solely as a punishment rather than to preserve the article space. This user also states (as seen above) that if 'a thousand practitioners' believe it then it must be true; A weak argument, saying that climate change denial and Flat Earth Society have thousands of believers. This user just causes way too much disruption by trying to make fiction into fact and a TBAN is in order to stop this nonsense from continuing to occur. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 13:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @UNSC Luke 1021:
Am I allowed to vote here as an experienced editor
Yes.or must I be an admin?
No. I'm not, and neither are a bunch of the other people who already !voted before you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)- @Hijiri88: - Ok, thanks for clarification. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 13:42, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also, not to mention support for anti-vaxxing, claiming that Wikipedia is being 'hijacked by incompetent editors', saying that extremely reliable scientific journals are 'fringe theories' and (I think I said this) claiming that North Korean scientists are much more reliable than scientists that aren't in fucked up countries. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 13:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @UNSC Luke 1021:
- Support TBAN - Took me all of five minutes to determine that this is either necessary now, or going to be necessary very soon. Pushing absurd fringe theories about medical topics and complaining that "mainstream science" just hasn't caught up or otherwise on par with said fringe theories tells me just about all I need to know. Key for me here is the
western culutral imperialism is the arbiter of truth
comment. Which reminds me, you all might want to decolonize your mind just in case you haven't done so already. The Great Juju up the Mountain would greatly appreciate it. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Conflict of edit/autobiographical/potential sockpuppet issue at Paige Brooks
| AfD is up and we'll take it from there. El_C 13:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is an ongoing issue at Paige Brooks (edit talk history links watch logs). Primary editing has been by:
Both users editing has only been at this page or discussion related to it, or related topics such as The Price Is Right models and Men in Black II. Article is in bad shape, I chose to nominate for deletion rather than cleanup because I do not believe subject passes WP:BIO: I have been unable to find significant reliable sources, and articles with a similar degree of RS material have already been deleted at AFD. Both these users have removed the AFD templates and removed other template messages such as "Autobiography" and "Advert". Given edits such as this seems to be a pretty strong case for conflict of interest, autobiographical editing and given the similarity between the two contrib logs there also seems a strong case for sockpuppetry. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 07:30, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems I have unintentionally created quite an uproar here. I just want to take this opportunity to straighten out a few misconceptions and issues.
Firstly, I am Ms. Brooks' biggest fan!
I do not work for PaigeBrooks.com and the Paige Brooks article that I created 10 years ago is in no way affiliated with PaigeBrooks.com. I created it because I thought it was appropriate for this forum due to her level of recognition and honors.
Ms. Brooks' management team has been very kind to allow me to post photos, awards, etc. with their permission, when I asked. If you have any questions or want to confirm this information that I am providing, you can contact them. They are very nice. I contact them through the email address that is publicly available on the official website.
I am certainly and obviously not an expert at Wikipedia (this is the only Wikipedia article that I have ever done). I am not at all familiar with the guidelines and hope this is the correct way to get in touch with other users and administrators who have been taking issue of late.
Only now, after a recent update, have I realized that the manner in which I originally wrote the article and subsequent updates are not completely within the guidelines of your community. Luckily, through the years, I can see some of your experienced Wikipedia users have corrected my many mistakes and vastly improved the article.
The newest improvements are especially impressive. After 10 years of the article having my incorrect-for-Wikipedia writing style, I am happy to see that it meets the Wikipedia standards now.
I want to apologize for any previous, although unintended, guideline missteps. I never meant to upset anyone, although I am afraid some of my actions may have done so. I did not realize that those actions were breaking the rules. Most importantly, I do not want my mistakes to reflect on Ms. Brooks in any way.
I hope this note helps clarify things and that the article can continue to be included in Wikipedia now that it has been so vastly changed and improved, despite my inadequacies at creating and editing. Even after a decade, it is never too late to get things right. :)
Thank you for your understanding. missalusa (talk · contribs)
Administrator note Just let the Article for deletion process run its course, then we will be able to tell whether the entry conforms to our notability guideline. In the meantime, you are encouraged to continue improving the article. Thanks, and welcome to Wikipedia. El_C 10:21, 21 March 2017 (UTC) - Thanks El C. I probably was jumping the gun with this & should have left it until the AFD was over, it just seemed there were more issues than just the notability of the article here. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 10:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- You misunderstand, my comment was for Missalusa. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go ahead and close this as I think we're all on the right track now. El_C 13:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks El C. I probably was jumping the gun with this & should have left it until the AFD was over, it just seemed there were more issues than just the notability of the article here. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 10:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Suspect has 3 times added the above section "I am her biggest fan bla bla bla" to various place on his/her talk page, so including the AfD posting and this AN/I, it is on wikipedia 5 times. As TP are not soapboxes, should talk page access be removed and the edits rollbacked? L3X1 (distant write) 01:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Could use some more admin eyes at Wikipedia:Blpn#Gurinder_Singh_Mann
| Thanks in advance. El_C 09:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Newcomer Being Mistreated
| (non-admin closure) Not a Wikipedia issue. OP directed to proper venue. Kleuske (talk) 10:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I've asked for help a few times, hoping this is the last time, I am being accused of ballot stuffing but both my accounts are declared, linked, and I've only voted once per poll. Please see coordinated harassment of me by three editors here https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Clevermercury?markasread=4490823#Sockpuppet_.5BFalse_Accusation.5D
Please assist! --Cdfi (talk) 10:10, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Shouldn't this be on Commons? El_C 10:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Clevermercury - en.wikipedia has nothing to do with how commons is run. You need to take this there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Reporting a problem
| We don't take admin actions to punish, only to prevent, and we're not going to sanction anyone for a single comment made a year ago. My advice is to heed the words of the wise ~Oshwah~. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello this is garrison9656, and I want to report a problem with a user that has verbally abused me. He basically shunned my intellect on a edit I made (which I admit it wasn't a good edit now that I look back at it.
I'm pasting the transcript for what he said. He posted it on my wall, but I took it off. Here's what he said, "Hi Garrison9656. This edit of you removed the account of how Gautama was awakened to the harsh realities of life. It's an essential part of the basic Buddhist narrative, which gives the rationale for Gautama setting out on his scetic path. You gave the following edit-summary:
- "I didn't see the point of including that whole paragraph, since that parapgraph didn't really seem necessary, and the next paragpraph talks about how he left the palace. I tried editing the paragraph, but I couldn't think of a way to link Channa into it."
I this is typical of your level of knwowledge, you better refrain rigth away from editing at Wikipedia. Sorry to say, but it's breath-taking. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)"
I don't know if I am on the right page for reporting a user, and there were a ton of articles about debates and how to deal with criticism and what not before I found this page. I feel that even if I should just ignore it, he shouldn't go unpunished for his verbal abuse. That and I think he's like a Wikipedia admin since the first thing I got was a Welcome message from him when I finishing signing up.
Also, there really needs to be an easier way to contact for help. Most sites like Apple, gaming sites, and more have a support tab on there main screen. I think Wikipedia needs to do this so it isn't frustratingly complicated to get some support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrison9656 (talk • contribs) 10:42, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Anyone can welcome a user, not just administrators. Wikipedia is not like other websites; there is no central authority to report issues to, everyone here is a volunteer. If you need assistance in using Wikipedia, try the Help Desk. This is the correct place to report an issue regarding user conduct- though you should(not sure if you did or not, as I write this) attempt to discuss the matter with the other party first. Maybe the person could have been nicer, but I'm not sure that is "verbal abuse". 331dot (talk) 10:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Garrison9656, I agree that the user's conduct when communicating with you was not appropriate and that experienced editors should be expected to communicate in a civil manner and refrain from making personal attacks... but this occurred much much too long ago for action to be taken now (almost exactly one year ago). Next time someone repeatedly engages with you in an uncivil manner and/or repeatedly makes personal attacks at you, you need to ask for assistance and get help at that time. My best advice to you is to move on and don't hold any grudges. The fact that you waited so long and are reporting this now... it concerns me that you might be. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 11:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
WP:NOTHERE editing (incl. socking, using personal attacks, battleground-loaded editing, copyvios, and what-not)
PAKHIGHWAY (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user has been playing with fire for quite some time now. His editorial pattern includes so many unacceptable things, that it requires admin intervention.
Recent personal attacks/battleground-editing
- "Undid Indian vandalism"
- "Kindly keep your noses in your Gangetic history. Indus history has nothing to do with India. You're welcome."
- Are you on drugs or something?
- You just completely screwed up a perfectly good article. I'll instead be reporting YOU and YOUR disruptive edits.
- "you Indians just love shoving INDIA into every bloody Pakistani article because it makes you feel better about the craphole you live in"
- "Before trying to act all smart, open up your OWN source and read what is says. Idiot"
Recent IP socks used
- IP 99.226.91.115 (same edits, same edit summaries, same target articles, literally editing the articles a few minutes before or after the account in question)
Recent Copyvios
OR/Agenda pushing
- [73] (basically adding information about peoples/ethnicites from regions that far pre-date any "diaspora" of the country in question, a country that was created no more than 80 yrs ago. This erroneous self-interpreted bogus would be similar to someone adding "Paeonian migrations" to the article "Macedonian diaspora", or "Illyrian migrations" to the article "Albanian diaspora".
- LouisAragon (talk) 06:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Clearly not competent to edit Wikipedia with such an attitude. Simply NOTHERE. --QEDK (愛) 10:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- I will attempt to answer all these ridiculous claims one by one. First off, go through my entire edit history before making a remark about me being not "competent" enough. Pakistan Railways for example I've been working on for months and have had no problem. The problem seems to arise whenever "Persia" is mentioned. This LouisArgon character shows up literally out of nowhere and starts making really ridiculous edits. It's almost like he's desperately trying to make Persia a European country or something, judging from his edits, but that's another argument and debate altogether. This entire kerfuffle arose in Overseas Pakistanis article. He removed mentions of migrations that took place during colonial era and the Middle Ages. He brings up Albanians and Macedonians (which are ethnic groups) and then compares them to Pakistanis (which is only a nationality representing several ethnic groups). He assumes that Pakistanis didn't exist until 1947 and the ethnic groups that make up the country all popped out of thin air in 1947. He offered no reason as to why he made those edits either...he just thinks because he's an established Wiki editor, he can do whatever he wants. Is this the way Wikipedia operates? Where are his edits in Overseas Chinese and Non Resident Indian articles which practically do the same thing as Overseas Pakistani article? Where are his edits in Overseas Vietnamese? India didn't exist until 1857. Vietnam didn't exist until after Pakistan. And nobody was calling themselves "Chinese" during the Ming Dynasty either, so what his argument om about? LouisArgon, IMO, has a very unhealthy obsession with Pakistani wiki articles and employs double standards. He's made a mess of History of Pakistan too in the past and continuously reverts template edits without offering any logical explanation. Secondly, regarding my IP address, I've recently moved to another country hence the change after March 7, 2017. And many occasions I forget to login. It's not a malicious attempt to hide myself as LouisArgon is claiming. It's not hard to find out who's who anyway. Why would I hide myself? In Pakistan Railways I've done the same thing many times, simply because I just forget. For those Wiki editors who seem to have a level headed approach, look at my Wiki edit history and it speaks for itself. I don't go around looking for fights, instead they come looking for me it seems. I have no personal quarrel with LouisArgon, but his edits in Overseas Pakistanis was ridiculous to say the least. If this is his view, I expect his edits on Non-Resident Indians, Overseas Vietnamese and Overseas Chinese. But alas, no edits were made on those articles. The reason is simple. LouisArgon is biased and employs double standards. Thank you for reading my response, Have a great day.--PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 11:17, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Let me put it simply. If you can't properly conduct a conversation without using personal attacks, I am not obliged to prove you as a helpful member of this community. --QEDK (愛) 11:25, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @QEDK: What personal attack have I used in the paragraph I wrote above? I'm stating an opinion and presenting my argument about how I find LouisArgon's edits as disruptive and unproductive. It was done out of spite, not for the betterment of Wikipedia. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:52, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- What affects me is that you already used personal attacks,
...Indian vandalism
,...because it makes you feel better about the craphole you live in
, et al. You're being purposefully vile and as BSZ states later on, it's only a matter of circumstance that you haven't been blocked yet. Here's my advice to you: take a BREAK, reflect on your own actions and return when you're competent enough to work as a member of this community. Also, one of the golden rules on this site is, assume good faith and anyone can clearly observe your repeated failures at that basic rule. You hold a baseless animosity towards India and her citizens and that's very concerning considering this site is considered to be a repository of neutral and verifiable information. --QEDK (愛) 15:43, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- What affects me is that you already used personal attacks,
- @QEDK: Look at the old template I edited, and the reverted version and tell me which one reflects the History of Pakistan better. When Indian wiki members continuously vandalize our articles, then you should expect a response. You have no idea how many time I've had to clean up vandalism and reverts of Pakistan being called "Porkistan" and "Pakibastardland" and stuff like that. But that's okay according to you. Heaven forbid if we actually respond back...oh the outrage. My only mistake was not reporting it. They have an entire group of people who literally skim over every Pakistani article to insert "Indian subcontinent" which isn't even valid anymore since South Asia is used. I have no hatred for India or Indians...I have a hatred for Indian ultra nationalists who are not aware that a border exists between India and Pakistan. I'm also against the notion that 92 odd years of illegal British occupation with there experiment "British India" somehow erases 9000 years of Indus history and culture. If you want to ban me, go right on ahead. I'm not shying away from what I have said...I said it...if I have to be banned, then I'll take it. But I am not wrong in my edits that I have made. Look at my edits in Pakistan Railways and the various articles I have written on connection including railway stations, lines etc. Read MY edits in Overseas Pakistani, History of Jews in Pakistan and tell me what I have done that is so outrageous that they had to be reverted? I have provided sources, used proper grammar, cleaned up the article and just made it better reading experience overall. I've doubt you've even looked at my edits. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do not see why that would affect your editing capability. You have to learn to distinguish between people who are here to edit and people who are there to vandalize, while I understand your situation, you're letting yourself get away with your attitude. I'm afraid I can't sympathize with you. I can only request you stop this while you still can, with the little bit of ROPE that BSZ has given you. I pray you shall continue to be a good editor. Cheers! :) --QEDK (愛) 16:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- He just reinstated the same material on the Overseas Pakistani people using another sock IP. Just look how the IP, with the exact same geolocation as his other IPs, reinstated PAKHIGHWAY's edit word for word verbatim. Gotta admit, this is quite the circus act. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PAKHIGHWAY:--Well, there exists a procedure in Wikipedia called no personal attacks and establishing consensus.That you have created some good articles hardly gives you a lee-way to harass other users who are far-more experienced than you are.And please don't bring your ethnic rivalries over here.Any-way it's high time you look at your behaviour before telling others unhealthily obsessed and employing double standards.And may-be you don't know that we are serious about WP:SPA and serial WP:COPYVIO violators.Cheers!Winged Blades Godric 13:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric:-- I have a right to share my opinion, that's not called "harassment". Being singled out by a Wiki editor because I called him out on this talk page is harassment actually. Also being far more experienced doesn't give someone the right to simply make foolish edits and not give reasons for it. What's the point of an edit summary if LouisArgon won't use it? He made those edits out of spite, not for any logical reason and he has a long history of this mind you. I simply asked that if Overseas Pakistani article can't mention anything before 1947, why wasn't the Overseas Chinese or Non Resident Indian articles edited? Why can those articles talk about the middle ages and colonial era and not article in question? Nobody in the 12th century called themselves Chinese or Indians. I have yet to receive a response from you or LouisArgon over this query. Furthermore, refer to my last edit on History of Jews in Pakistan and compare the entire article to the current horrible status of the article right now. Which one is better? Mine or the reverted version? The answer is pretty simple. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:17, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PAKHIGHWAY:--You have the right to free speech as long as you don't repetitively transverse certain boundaries guaranteed by WP:NPA and take those rules for a toss.As to why I/Louis did'nt edit the other articles, remember --We are all volunteers over here.Winged Blades Godric 14:25, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric:--That's no excuse whatsoever. We're all volunteers here so that means one can be biased towards one particular ethnic group or nationality? The point is, if those articles are mentioning it, then why shouldn't the Overseas Pakistani article be mentioning it. If it's invalid, then all of them should be deleted. It wouldn't take too long. Infact, I'll go ahead and delete all mentions of colonial and middle age history in Overseas Chinese and Non Resident Indian? I'm assuming you will support my wonderful volunteer work, correct? --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric:--Also, I am not repeatedly using personal attacks against anyone. Have I used a few in the past, sure...but this isn't my daily way I do things. I've been on here since October...I've probably had a few run ins. I usually mind my own business and try to contribute to Wikipedia and don't get into edit wars. When editors like LouisArgon show up and make literally disruptive edits and just delete things without saying why, what do you expect the writer of that article to do? It's extremely annoying. Shouldn't editors be leading by example? How can he get away with simply deleting things he doesn't like? That's completely uncalled for. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:44, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PAKHIGHWAY:--I understand your frustration and it may be heartening to hear that I did not took any sides at Overseas Pakistani.I plainly reverted because there appeared to be some fishy collusion between you and some IPs and since he opposed your addition, the onus was on you to prove you're correct.And in the regasrd just follow boeing's way-out.As w.r.t History of Jews in Pakistan & Pakistani Jews in Israel,I don't support your edits.Winged Blades Godric 14:52, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric:-- Okay that's fine, how do I go about starting a consensus debate on the talk page? Do I just start a section and write my opinion? Which editor will read my side? Or do I have to post a template or something on the talk page to get an editor involved. I'm not sure, I'm new to this because I've never had a Wiki editor breathing down my neck 24 hours a day. And furthermore, how can I report a certain wiki editor for disruptive edits? To be honest, I'm not in the business tattle tale, but I am not one bit amused about LouisArgon's editing and his lack of insight and not wanting to help new wiki members out. Classic bully in my opinion and I intend on making this an issue of this. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PAKHIGHWAY:--Yeah, just start a section, write your opinion and wait for people to chip in.If the discussion is just between you two and still do not lead to productivity, there's WP:RFC, dispute resolution etc.
- And
to make an issue
(lodge a complain), just create a section about your grievances at any particular editor at this very page,But, be wary of WP:BOOMERANG.And, I don't personally feel that it will be a very good step.Cheers!Winged Blades Godric 15:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)- Thanks. I'll see how this current situation unfolds. I'd rather that LouisAragon just stop following me around Wikipedia and tend to his life. I'm confident that my edits are reasonable enough for logical level headed people to understand and see where I am coming from. I've written my complaint here Talk:Overseas_Pakistani#Emigration From Pakistan section edit war. I hope you and other editors reading this will look into my grievances and see my edits and see how I did nothing wrong. I provided full sources and simply put I made the article better.--PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric:-- Okay that's fine, how do I go about starting a consensus debate on the talk page? Do I just start a section and write my opinion? Which editor will read my side? Or do I have to post a template or something on the talk page to get an editor involved. I'm not sure, I'm new to this because I've never had a Wiki editor breathing down my neck 24 hours a day. And furthermore, how can I report a certain wiki editor for disruptive edits? To be honest, I'm not in the business tattle tale, but I am not one bit amused about LouisArgon's editing and his lack of insight and not wanting to help new wiki members out. Classic bully in my opinion and I intend on making this an issue of this. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
User should be indeffed. None of that is even remotely acceptable. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 13:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PAKHIGHWAY: You are edit warring with two other editors on that article to reinsert your preferred text. Some admins would have blocked you by now, but instead I have protected the article just for one hour to try to avoid the need for that. I have no idea whether or not the text you want included is appropriate and I'm taking no side in the content dispute, but you really do need to stop the edit war and seek a consensus. So please, start a discussion at the article talk page and let others offer their opinions - and if you get a consensus in your favour, you can add the content. If, instead, you continue the edit war after the protection expires, you should expect to be blocked. (I have no comment on the incivility issue as I have not looked into that.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: Thank you for explaining the procedure. I don't expect you to take my side, I just want my side heard. None of the other commentators explained what to do. They just ganged up on me and began bullying me because I had the audacity to question a Wiki editor who took things too personally. Can you please explain how I can go about starting a consensus debate on this on the article talk page? Do I have to write a special code or something? {{WP ABC}}? An example would be great. Thank you. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nothing special needed, just start a new section at the talk page and explain the text you want to add, and let the discussion commence. And you really should stick to just discussing the content and leave out allegations of bullying and ganging up on you - it can often seem like that to those unfamiliar with Wikipedia's methods, but it's usually an incorrect interpretation. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've done that here Talk:Overseas_Pakistani#Emigration From Pakistan section edit war. I hope you and other editors reading this will look into my grievances and see my edits and see how I did nothing wrong. I provided full sources and simply put I made the article better. I still have no idea why he simply deleted everything for no reason. Ridiculous --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nothing special needed, just start a new section at the talk page and explain the text you want to add, and let the discussion commence. And you really should stick to just discussing the content and leave out allegations of bullying and ganging up on you - it can often seem like that to those unfamiliar with Wikipedia's methods, but it's usually an incorrect interpretation. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Add obvious lack of WP:COMPETENCE to that indeed as well ("They just ganged up on me and began bullying me" -- kidding me?...). Even after these loads of insane, grievous personal attacks, the copy-vio's, the persistent IP socking, he's still continuing with his WP:NOTHERE editorial pattern, as we speak.[74][75] Objectively speaking, not a single article protection is gonna solve anything here. I've seen a lot of disruptive editors during my time, but the lack of competence shown here in combination with the rampant curriculum, is truly baffling. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also (the muppet show is seemingly never ending); it's beyond me how he asks here "how to start a talk page discussion". So....how exactly did he know how to start and participate in talk page consensus discussions here, here and here?.... Literally nothing matches up. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- You seem a little too over excited. I think you should read what I wrote again. I never asked anything about how to make a talk page. I asked how to get attention of other editors to my grievances so your biased edits could be reverted and condemned. I know very well how to use the Talk Page, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I'm just not well versed in using the Talk Page to get a obsessed wiki editor off my back. Read before you call people incomptenet and muppets? Are these not personal attacks now? What "Competence is required" does not mean * It does not mean "come down hard like a ton of bricks on someone as soon as they make a mistake." Wikipedia has a learning curve. We should cut editors (particularly new ones) some slack, and help them understand how to edit competently. Mistakes are an inevitable part of the wiki process. * It does not mean perfection is required. Articles can be improved in small steps, rather than being made perfect in one fell swoop. Small improvements are our bread and butter. * It does not mean we should ignore people and not try to help improve their competence. * It does not mean we should label people as incompetent. For example, we do not say "You are incompetent because you don't know anything about the subject of this article." * It does not mean that Wikipedia's civility policy does not apply when talking to incompetent people. Rude and uncivil comments may discourage the motivation of the targeted editor, raising their psychological barrier against recognizing their own mistakes or seeking to improve their skills. * Finally, it does not mean we will give any good-faith editor an infinite number of opportunities to make themselves useful. If, after an appropriate amount of time and coaching, someone still isn't competent, don't make a heroic effort to defend them. Cut them loose, and focus your mentoring efforts on a better candidate. So next time read what's written before trying to lump me as "incompetent" and a "muppet". Is this not personal attacks?--PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- And what is this sock you keep calling me? I've already stated that I forget to login at times when making edits and that I recently moved to another country which explains why change in IP. You really need to tone it down. I'm baffled at how you were even made an Wiki editor with a tongue and tone like that. You jump to conclusions and get way too over your head. Calm down, drink a glass of water. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- You seem a little too over excited. I think you should read what I wrote again. I never asked anything about how to make a talk page. I asked how to get attention of other editors to my grievances so your biased edits could be reverted and condemned. I know very well how to use the Talk Page, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I'm just not well versed in using the Talk Page to get a obsessed wiki editor off my back. Read before you call people incomptenet and muppets? Are these not personal attacks now? What "Competence is required" does not mean * It does not mean "come down hard like a ton of bricks on someone as soon as they make a mistake." Wikipedia has a learning curve. We should cut editors (particularly new ones) some slack, and help them understand how to edit competently. Mistakes are an inevitable part of the wiki process. * It does not mean perfection is required. Articles can be improved in small steps, rather than being made perfect in one fell swoop. Small improvements are our bread and butter. * It does not mean we should ignore people and not try to help improve their competence. * It does not mean we should label people as incompetent. For example, we do not say "You are incompetent because you don't know anything about the subject of this article." * It does not mean that Wikipedia's civility policy does not apply when talking to incompetent people. Rude and uncivil comments may discourage the motivation of the targeted editor, raising their psychological barrier against recognizing their own mistakes or seeking to improve their skills. * Finally, it does not mean we will give any good-faith editor an infinite number of opportunities to make themselves useful. If, after an appropriate amount of time and coaching, someone still isn't competent, don't make a heroic effort to defend them. Cut them loose, and focus your mentoring efforts on a better candidate. So next time read what's written before trying to lump me as "incompetent" and a "muppet". Is this not personal attacks?--PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also (the muppet show is seemingly never ending); it's beyond me how he asks here "how to start a talk page discussion". So....how exactly did he know how to start and participate in talk page consensus discussions here, here and here?.... Literally nothing matches up. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Add obvious lack of WP:COMPETENCE to that indeed as well ("They just ganged up on me and began bullying me" -- kidding me?...). Even after these loads of insane, grievous personal attacks, the copy-vio's, the persistent IP socking, he's still continuing with his WP:NOTHERE editorial pattern, as we speak.[74][75] Objectively speaking, not a single article protection is gonna solve anything here. I've seen a lot of disruptive editors during my time, but the lack of competence shown here in combination with the rampant curriculum, is truly baffling. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe PAKHIGHWAY earned themselves a block for edit warring or incivility, but I see a glimmer of hope. This fits the pattern of "aggressive but well-meaning newbie, who might learn to edit constructively over time". Since the bulk of the problem seems to be a paranoiac belief that LouisAragon (and their minions) is out to revert them, maybe a one-way WP:IBAN would solve it? TigraanClick here to contact me 17:56, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Seeing the developments of late, I feel an one-way IBAN between Pakhighway and Lois will serve good.Winged Blades Godric 05:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
It looks like there are issues of competence here. For example, the user adds two paragraphs about Pakistani Jews in Pakistan to an article about Pakistani Jews in Israel, and when this is rightly reverted, they cry vandalism. I would recommend being open to the notion that they still have much to learn when about contributing to Wikipedia. El_C 05:24, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Civility
This seems to have gotten off-track. Can we address the blatant racism displayed by PAKHIGHWAY? 74.70.146.1 (talk) 01:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's quite the accusation, one which ought to be corroborated with extraordinary evidence (in the form of diffs and quoting the exact passage that's presumably racist). El_C 05:24, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is one outright racist comment in the original post with two further comments that while not explicitly racist, indicate the editor is focusing on other editors racial background instead of the content. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would block right now, but it seems that another admin is already attending to this, and that they are even more forgiving than yous truly is (wow, who knew!). El_C 14:32, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- @El C:, as far as I understood, BSZ explicitly mentioned and showed in his first comment here, that he'd only deal with the users' content-related problem with respect to one article, not with all the personal attacks/all other stuff. Btw, I just picked several of the recent incivility diffs in my original post. There are more of them, e.g. "Learn Urdu or fuck off.", and "Don't even know how to write UNIVERSITY in Urdu and you call yourselves "educated".". But, I believe that the point was illustrated more than sufficiently with the original post. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:55, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would block right now, but it seems that another admin is already attending to this, and that they are even more forgiving than yous truly is (wow, who knew!). El_C 14:32, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is one outright racist comment in the original post with two further comments that while not explicitly racist, indicate the editor is focusing on other editors racial background instead of the content. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
The guy calls the entire country of India a "craphole" and he gets a free lesson in talk page editing. "Hello user IHATESTUPIDINDIANS. Thanks for your comments about how everyone from India can just "fuck off". Did you know you can change the size of the font you used for the word "fuck" by clicking on "Advanced" and selecting 'level 2' from the dropdown menu?" ADMINMIKE96 62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Can we get some closure on this? Either ban him or don't? 74.70.146.1 (talk) 16:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Numerous IP addresses (likely proxies) on a big puffery spree
Over the past month or so, a series of IP users have made very similar disruptive edits to the same pages.
- Pages disrupted
- Filmography and awards of Stanley Kubrick (edit talk history links watch logs)
Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio (edit talk history links watch logs)
Martin Scorsese filmography (edit talk history links watch logs)
Paul Thomas Anderson (edit talk history links watch logs)
Paul Thomas Anderson filmography (edit talk history links watch logs)
The Last Temptation of Christ (film) (edit talk history links watch logs) - Users being reported
- (for Filmography and awards of Stanley Kubrick): 79.55.190.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 212.216.199.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 87.1.192.102 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (for Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio): 79.35.185.195 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (for Martin Scorsese filmography): 212.171.252.236 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 95.249.168.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 79.32.187.174 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (for Paul Thomas Anderson): 79.49.188.223 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 80.116.30.226 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 95.245.31.55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (for Paul Thomas Anderson filmography): 95.251.206.246 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- (for The Last Temptation of Christ (film)): 79.52.185.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 95.251.206.246 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 212.216.251.240 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Diffs of the users' edits
- (for Filmography and awards of Stanley Kubrick): 14 February 2017, 14 February 2017, 15 February 2017
- (for Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio): 17 February 2017, 18 February 2017
- (for Martin Scorsese filmography): 18 March 2017, 19 March 2017 (edit summary contains false statement about BBC Culture list, which was ranking only American films), 19 March 2017, 19 March 2017
- (for Paul Thomas Anderson): 16 March 2017, 17 March 2017, 16 March 2017
- (for Paul Thomas Anderson filmography): 18 March 2017
- (for The Last Temptation of Christ (film)): 17 March 2017, 18 March 2017, 17 March 2017
- Comments:
Most edits from these IP addresses have simply been removed by myself and several other editors. These users have also made many edits to Martin Scorsese, which has been protected by now. The pages listed above, however, have not, and similarly worded content continues to appear on them. Because of the similarity of the content being added, and the similar formatting/citation errors in many of the edits, I have come to believe that this is one IP-hopping person. Address it however it should be addressed. Thanks for reading, AndrewOne (talk) 21:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm an involved admin because I've (at least) rolled back some of the edits and handed out blocks when this user was caught evading prior blocks. I don't monitor all the pages that AndrewOne identified, mind you, meaning most of the hard work has been done by others. The IP addresses, whenever I've checked, have geolocated to Italy, though not always to the same location in Italy. I believe the appropriate action is to semi-protect all of the articles listed. --Yamla (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd like to thank AndrewOne for starting this discussion and Yamla for his input and his administrative actions in response to this anonymous editor. Some of the articles above are already semi-protected precisely because of this editor's actions. Andrew and I, as well as other editors, have tried multiple times to address these issues with the anon., but he has not listened, instead choosing to see himself as the victim of bullying. I agree with Yamla that long-term semi-protection is the only appropriate action. There are too many IP ranges to effectively block him. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 22:10, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Legal threat (against Wikipedia Spain)
| Situation resolved. Neutralitytalk 15:25, 22 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Martinkemp (talk · contribs), a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of Ivan Artaza (talk · contribs), has threatened legal action at User talk:Martinkemp against Wikipedia Spain. Note they have signed the name, Ivan Artaza, so even without access to the checkuser technical information, it seems incredibly likely they are indeed in violation of WP:SOCK. The legal threat certainly puts them in violation of WP:NLT but I'm somewhat at a loss on what to do next. I already declined an unblock request prior to the legal threat. Should talk page access be revoked, leaving them with WP:UTRS as an option for unconditionally retracting the threat (or indicating their legal action has completed)? I will notify the user of this post immediately after saving. --Yamla (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I Am Being Abused
| This board can only deal with issues relating to the English Wikipedia. The Wikimedia Commons has its own appeal process, as Oshwah and Marchjuly mentioned. Neutralitytalk 06:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see here, I have been targeted. Thank you
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cdfi#Talk_page_blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdfi (talk • contribs) 05:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You appear to be blocked on the Wikimedia Commons site. You need to appeal your block and follow the proper procedures there; we cannot help you here with this. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
They have blocked me even from being able to post on the administrator notice board on commons... I've put in two {{unblock}} requests but the same guy who blocked me to begin with reviewed it and denied it then deleted my posts from the admin notice board, I call foul play. --Cdfi (talk) 05:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Another instance of using sockpuppetry guidelines to bully people, but we can't do anything about Commons here. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 05:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- It seems that commons has no method for appealing a block once a user's talk page and email have been revoked. Regardless, yeah, nothing we can do here. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Hi Cdfi. As pointed out above, it is your Commons account which is blocked which means you have to discuss things there. So, you might want to take a look at c:Commons:Blocking policy#Appealing a block. Although Wikipedia and Commons are all operated by the Wikimedia Foundation, each site has its own policies and guidelines as well as its own administrators. Since your Commons user talk page access has been revoked, emailing Commons OTRS (c:Commons:Information team (OTRS)#E-Mail contact) now is probably your only remaining option for appealing your block. However, before you send off an angry email full of claims and accusations, you probably should take a look at Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks just for reference. An angry email is likely to be counterproductive and will not help you get your account unblocked. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Admin Bbb23 and article Willie Garson
| Content dispute. Govvy warned for assuming bad faith and unnecessarily inflaming the situation with unwarranted accusations. --NeilN talk to me 21:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have a complain against admin:@Bbb23: who I feel is being racists in removing citations from Jewish related organisations, saying they are unreliable without giving reason why they are unreliable. He fails to review the citation correctly and has frankly shown laziness towards wikipedia as a project. Govvy (talk) 19:55, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Govvy: Why didn't you "take it to Talk or WP:BLPN" as suggested? --NeilNtalk to me 19:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Additionally, I'd refrain from making a personal attack in calling someone racist right off the bat. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Rather than taking Bbb23's edits personally, perhaps you should read the policy on reliable sources and assume good faith (which is a requirement of editing here) that he was acting within policy, and if you disagree, discuss with him why you think the sources in question meet the policy for reliable sourcing, rather than saying you find his calling them not reliable "offensive". IMO, the only one behaving improperly here is you, Govvy. By the way, other editors stepped in and made the required notification of him for you, and there is absolutely no need to ever ping an editor twice in the same posting. Pinging does not satisfy the notification requirement. John from Idegon (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- First off the source he removed first time seemed reliable enough to me from a fairly respected organisations and I thought he was a normal user first time around, secondly I found another source to backup the first source and added that only to have both sources removed. The second source was from a very well respect Jewish organisation, given the second fact and the laziness to not even review what I added I found that offensive. Following on the removal of the Jewish content from Garson's article which had two backups for the information seemed overt and the fact that he was an admin and the fact I am finding many an admin on wikipedia running policies over doing the work extremely annoying. Do you not think I haven't read policies? I have been round long enough when I notice plenty of things not adhering to what wiki should be and some admins have been abusing their powers on other users and even of other admins. I considered many opinions and options and concluded that there was a flash of racist consideration to Garson's article that Bbb23 doesn't even realise he has done. My only conclusion was to what I truly believe to be a violation of policy and respect for wiki. Govvy (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You've given no evidence here of any transgression, however I tracked down the complaint and found it baseless. Despite being advised to stop the personal attacks (calling another editor racist without providing evidence of same is unambiguously a personal attack), you've doubled down. You have a misconception of what it takes for a source to be reliable (hint: There is nothing in the policy on reliable sourcing about seeming reliable to you), you apparently are not familiar with what our policy on biographies of living people say about religious identification, and you are not listening. The only behavioral problem here is you, and this is not the place to settle a content dispute. I'd strongly suggest you drop it, read what has been suggested to you and if you still think there is a problem, take it to the appropriate noticeboard. Playing the race card on your first play is incredibly bad form. Perhaps he doesn't realize he has done something because he hasn't done anything. John from Idegon (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- First off the source he removed first time seemed reliable enough to me from a fairly respected organisations and I thought he was a normal user first time around, secondly I found another source to backup the first source and added that only to have both sources removed. The second source was from a very well respect Jewish organisation, given the second fact and the laziness to not even review what I added I found that offensive. Following on the removal of the Jewish content from Garson's article which had two backups for the information seemed overt and the fact that he was an admin and the fact I am finding many an admin on wikipedia running policies over doing the work extremely annoying. Do you not think I haven't read policies? I have been round long enough when I notice plenty of things not adhering to what wiki should be and some admins have been abusing their powers on other users and even of other admins. I considered many opinions and options and concluded that there was a flash of racist consideration to Garson's article that Bbb23 doesn't even realise he has done. My only conclusion was to what I truly believe to be a violation of policy and respect for wiki. Govvy (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Rather than taking Bbb23's edits personally, perhaps you should read the policy on reliable sources and assume good faith (which is a requirement of editing here) that he was acting within policy, and if you disagree, discuss with him why you think the sources in question meet the policy for reliable sourcing, rather than saying you find his calling them not reliable "offensive". IMO, the only one behaving improperly here is you, Govvy. By the way, other editors stepped in and made the required notification of him for you, and there is absolutely no need to ever ping an editor twice in the same posting. Pinging does not satisfy the notification requirement. John from Idegon (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Additionally, I'd refrain from making a personal attack in calling someone racist right off the bat. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Then your conclusion is faulty. Being a well respected organisation says nothing about fact checking. WP:BLPCAT unequivocally states Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question. The point that Bbb23 made is that the source you used does not itself source that back to the subject. I.e. for the edit that you want to make it is not reliable, irrespective of how well regarded the organisation is. I propose this be closed forthwith and a trout, plus a warning, duly delivered for going straight for the racism card. Blackmane (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- The claim you're trying to source is that "Garson was born to a Jewish family". Neither of your sources says more than that Garson is Jewish. Even for that claim, BLP and RS generally call for sources evidencing the subject's self-identification for claims involving religion; the specific sources don't meet our RS requirements on that point, whatever the general reputability of the organizations involved. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Sources that were used do seem to be sub-par, take it to the talk page please. Same advice to Bbb23, the explanation by Blackmane above might have stopped this whole thing. Arkon (talk) 21:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
POV-pushing on multiple Balkans-articles
| The anonymous user's latest dynamic IP has been blocked for two weeks for protracted edit warring and block evasion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Copied from WP:AIV where countless other reports have been handled since the report, but noone seems to want to touch this:
- 91.148.77.114 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – On NATO bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia headquarters (diff):. Repeated POV removal of sourced content on multiple articles (articles subject to AE/Balkans) after getting a final warning for it (they swiftly remove all warnings they get, but the final warning, and the ones before that, can be found in their talk page history). - Tom Thomas.W talk 11:04, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- You forgot to mention that I stated reasons for removal of "sourced" content in edit summary. 91.148.77.114 (talk) 11:22, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reasons that are POV and not valid. As you have been told you need to discuss it on the talk page and get support for it there, before removing it. On at least one article you are also repeatedly falsifying content, by changing text to say things that the source does not say (see comment on IP's talk page), which is as POV as it can be. - TomThomas.W talk 11:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can say the same thing about you - reverting back to suspicious and POV content, without bothering to understand the issue. 91.148.77.114 (talk) 11:31, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- If you are reverted, just redoing the same edit and repeating the same edit summary again and again is not enough. I think you need to use the articles' talk pages to properly explain the reasons you think your edits should remain. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can say the same thing about you - reverting back to suspicious and POV content, without bothering to understand the issue. 91.148.77.114 (talk) 11:31, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reasons that are POV and not valid. As you have been told you need to discuss it on the talk page and get support for it there, before removing it. On at least one article you are also repeatedly falsifying content, by changing text to say things that the source does not say (see comment on IP's talk page), which is as POV as it can be. - TomThomas.W talk 11:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The IP (who, based on edits, page history of involved articles and general behaviour, including checking if they're being reported at WP:AIV and then immediately posting claims about POV/bias there, to make it seem like a content dispute, is identical to Special:Contributions/212.178.255.63, who was blocked twice in February, see block log, for the same and similar edits, and most probabaly also other IPs further back in time) has over the past few days repeatedly removed properly sourced material from and/or changed text on multiple articles relating to Kosovo and the 1990s Balkan War (articles edited sofar are Battle of Tripolje, Destroyed Serbian heritage in Kosovo, NATO bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia headquarters, Battle of Lođa, Attacks on Likošane and Ćirez and Kragujevac massacre, all of them subject to AE/Balkans), with claims about the articles being biased/POV, edits that also include repeatedly toning the text down and making the articles no longer say what the source says. The edits have been reverted by multiple other editors, and the IP has been told to discuss the changes on the talk page of the articles, and get support for them there, but the edits continue.
All warnings they get are swiftly removed, BTW, so you will have to check the page history, which also shows they've been around for a while, so if someone knows who the real master behind it is please say so here... - Tom Thomas.W talk 13:47, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- When I edit, I'm a vandal, when I state in edit summary the reason for removal of the content I get reverted and accused of vandalism. I may have made some mistakes, but I am no vandal. And when I go to a talk page nothing gets done. Too bad Thomas.W cherry picked through my edits, avoiding articles where I contributed. 91.148.77.114 (talk) 16:04, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- You personally feeling that something is wrong or biased isn't a valid reason for removing properly sourced content, or rewriting sourced text in a way that doesn't properly reflect what the sources say, and especially not a valid reason for doing it over and over again, after being reverted by several different editors. As you have done, using more than one IP for doing it. - TomThomas.W talk 17:03, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Again, you ignored what I said. As for your claim of "personal feeling" I can say the same about you. 91.148.77.114 (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- You personally feeling that something is wrong or biased isn't a valid reason for removing properly sourced content, or rewriting sourced text in a way that doesn't properly reflect what the sources say, and especially not a valid reason for doing it over and over again, after being reverted by several different editors. As you have done, using more than one IP for doing it. - TomThomas.W talk 17:03, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
The problem with Balkan-related articles is that often both sides have sources to back-up their POV, so one has to apply WP:UNDUE in order to archive balance. It is quite common to see editors cherry-picking sources that are convenient to their side and remove sourced content and sources from the other side. That makes a situation where it is not enough for some content to be sourced to become undisputable but rather one should gather and see what reliable sources say about the subject from 3 sides: one side, the other, plus neutral ones. FkpCascais (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why I want the IP to discuss it on the talk page of the articles, instead of just repeatedly removing anything they don't like. - TomThomas.W talk 21:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes,, that is clearly a way to go. FkpCascais (talk) 21:31, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Then (Thomas.W) why not take your own advice, and the initiative, and use the talk page? The last post there (talk page of NATO bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia headquarters) was on 14 feb, by me. Given the absence of talk page usage by the complainant, I don't see validity in raising a case here. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Tiptoethrutheminefield: I thought that was obvious: I have no opinion fore or against the edits, and quite frankly don't care if it's one way or the other, I'm just reverting an IP who is repeatedly removing and/or falsifying sourced content just because they don't like it. And the reason I posted here is that I feel that repeated (as in over and over again no matter how many other editors revert them) removing sourced content, using one IP after the other, and having been blocked for the exact same thing multiple times before, deserves a block. An opinion others here apparently don't share. - TomThomas.W talk 16:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Even if you don't personally have an opinion on the content, by repeatedly reverting and without making anything as a talk page post, aren't you behaving in the same way as the IP by doing nothing to break the cycle. Without first trying to resolve things on the talk page, bringing a case here looks premature. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- ??? Are you seriously claiming that anyone reverting blanking, falsifying of sourced content etc etc needs to spend hours on discussing every single revert on the talk page of the article in question? Do you have any idea how often this happens here, and how many editors like the IP there are? - TomThomas.W talk 17:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody is asking you or expecting you to spend "hours" discussing "every single revert", though sometimes contentious material on difficult subjects will need that amount of consideration. But you have not even spent minutes discussing it, as far as I can see. Looking at your recent edit history I see lots of revert edits, many with brisk edit summaries, and many "warnings" posted on other editor's pages, but almost no use of article talk pages. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Did you check what the edits were, or did you just look at the list? Don't judge anyone without checking what the edits were, and the page history of the article the revert was made on. Reverting vandalism, such as fanboys repeatedly inflating numbers without sources on articles about the armed forces of various minor countries (or in a case earlier today lowering the numbers for country A and at the same time increasing the numbers for neighbouring country B, without sources of course...) doesn't need any discussion, it's also difficult to discuss things with IP-hoppers, who often change IPs several times a day. Nor does reverting repeatedly made changes from "Kiev" to "Kyiv", made by editors who already know that we use the name that is in common use in English, and also has been discussed ad nauseam on Talk:Kiev/naming need any discussion. A janitorial job on a side of Wikipedia that most people here, apparently you included, never see. - TomThomas.W talk 20:50, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- No I haven't looked at the individual edits in your history that are not related to the case here, and I am not questioning your good motives in any of the edits. I am just trying to say that I think going straight from reverting content deletions to here is hasty without first trying to resolve the situation through article talk pages. If the IP doesn't respond there, to your prompting, that makes the case for bringing them here much stronger. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Notice This IP has targeted my edits. They asked FkpCascais to have a look on my edit at Kosovo War and the later editor undid my changes. The later is currently reported by another editor. The report is some sections above. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:04, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of course you were reverted Ktrimi991, you removed an entire well sourced paragraph about the expulsion of Serbs and other non-Albanian civilians (your edit I reverted). You are making an euhemiism saying they wre displaced instead of expelled. FkpCascais (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- Notice This IP has targeted my edits. They asked FkpCascais to have a look on my edit at Kosovo War and the later editor undid my changes. The later is currently reported by another editor. The report is some sections above. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:04, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- No I haven't looked at the individual edits in your history that are not related to the case here, and I am not questioning your good motives in any of the edits. I am just trying to say that I think going straight from reverting content deletions to here is hasty without first trying to resolve the situation through article talk pages. If the IP doesn't respond there, to your prompting, that makes the case for bringing them here much stronger. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Did you check what the edits were, or did you just look at the list? Don't judge anyone without checking what the edits were, and the page history of the article the revert was made on. Reverting vandalism, such as fanboys repeatedly inflating numbers without sources on articles about the armed forces of various minor countries (or in a case earlier today lowering the numbers for country A and at the same time increasing the numbers for neighbouring country B, without sources of course...) doesn't need any discussion, it's also difficult to discuss things with IP-hoppers, who often change IPs several times a day. Nor does reverting repeatedly made changes from "Kiev" to "Kyiv", made by editors who already know that we use the name that is in common use in English, and also has been discussed ad nauseam on Talk:Kiev/naming need any discussion. A janitorial job on a side of Wikipedia that most people here, apparently you included, never see. - TomThomas.W talk 20:50, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody is asking you or expecting you to spend "hours" discussing "every single revert", though sometimes contentious material on difficult subjects will need that amount of consideration. But you have not even spent minutes discussing it, as far as I can see. Looking at your recent edit history I see lots of revert edits, many with brisk edit summaries, and many "warnings" posted on other editor's pages, but almost no use of article talk pages. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- ??? Are you seriously claiming that anyone reverting blanking, falsifying of sourced content etc etc needs to spend hours on discussing every single revert on the talk page of the article in question? Do you have any idea how often this happens here, and how many editors like the IP there are? - TomThomas.W talk 17:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Even if you don't personally have an opinion on the content, by repeatedly reverting and without making anything as a talk page post, aren't you behaving in the same way as the IP by doing nothing to break the cycle. Without first trying to resolve things on the talk page, bringing a case here looks premature. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Tiptoethrutheminefield: I thought that was obvious: I have no opinion fore or against the edits, and quite frankly don't care if it's one way or the other, I'm just reverting an IP who is repeatedly removing and/or falsifying sourced content just because they don't like it. And the reason I posted here is that I feel that repeated (as in over and over again no matter how many other editors revert them) removing sourced content, using one IP after the other, and having been blocked for the exact same thing multiple times before, deserves a block. An opinion others here apparently don't share. - TomThomas.W talk 16:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Note: The same editor, now as Special:Contributions/91.148.93.114, is still doing the same type of edits, and is now also edit-warring on Serbian Air Force and Air Defence to restore an older version of the article with outdated sources. A previous IP they have used is Special:Contributions/212.178.251.41 (check contributions), so this is an IP-hopper with a long history of edit-warring, blanking and POV-pushing on multiple articles, over a long period of time, getting away with it time and time again because of knowing how the system here works, switching IPs, swiftly removing all warnings and other talk page messages they get, and knowing how to make their pro-Serbian POV-pushing look like simple content disputes, even though it isn't... - Tom Thomas.W talk 08:43, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I really appreciate all those accusations. Very constructive of you. Also, nice cherry picking of my edits. 91.148.93.114 (talk) 09:36, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I said earlier here, one good edit doesn't excuse 99 POV-pushing edits. And I didn't cherry-pick, I just picked one of your many IPs at random, if I had wanted to cherrypick I would have picked an IP like Special:Contributions/212.178.238.187, blocked on 10 March 2017 for wikihounding FOX 52, an editor you had edit-warred against on Serbian Air Force and Air Defence, reverting all edits they had made, on a considerable number of articles. But since I have your attention, would you mind telling us which registered account you once had? That is before you started to use, or were forced to use, IPs for your editing... - TomThomas.W talk 09:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- A couple of more IPs you have used recently, with the exact same edits and exact same behaviour: Special:Contributions/212.178.241.183 (blocked in February 2017 for vandalism), Special:Contributions/91.148.93.34 (an IP that really shows your repeated edit-warring...) and Special:Contributions/91.148.93.212. All from the recent page history of a single article, Serbian Air Force and Air Defence. - TomThomas.W talk 10:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Never had an account. Like I said, nice cherry picking. 91.148.93.114 (talk) 10:26, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- IP, why dont you consider creating an account? FkpCascais (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe you're right. I'll consider it. 91.148.93.114 (talk) 11:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- IP, why dont you consider creating an account? FkpCascais (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Never had an account. Like I said, nice cherry picking. 91.148.93.114 (talk) 10:26, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- A couple of more IPs you have used recently, with the exact same edits and exact same behaviour: Special:Contributions/212.178.241.183 (blocked in February 2017 for vandalism), Special:Contributions/91.148.93.34 (an IP that really shows your repeated edit-warring...) and Special:Contributions/91.148.93.212. All from the recent page history of a single article, Serbian Air Force and Air Defence. - TomThomas.W talk 10:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I said earlier here, one good edit doesn't excuse 99 POV-pushing edits. And I didn't cherry-pick, I just picked one of your many IPs at random, if I had wanted to cherrypick I would have picked an IP like Special:Contributions/212.178.238.187, blocked on 10 March 2017 for wikihounding FOX 52, an editor you had edit-warred against on Serbian Air Force and Air Defence, reverting all edits they had made, on a considerable number of articles. But since I have your attention, would you mind telling us which registered account you once had? That is before you started to use, or were forced to use, IPs for your editing... - TomThomas.W talk 09:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I really appreciate all those accusations. Very constructive of you. Also, nice cherry picking of my edits. 91.148.93.114 (talk) 09:36, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Based on their contribs, this user has been using a string of IPs, of which I've at least put together:
- 212.178.229.41 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 31 Dec
- 212.178.226.143 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 31 Dec
- 212.178.254.70 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 7 Jan
- 212.178.225.193 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 9 Jan
- 91.148.93.212 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 13 - 14 Jan
- 91.148.93.34 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 16 - 28 Jan
- 212.178.241.183 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 7 Feb, blocked 31 hours
- 212.178.226.30 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 7 - 8 Feb, in violation of the block above
- 212.178.230.228 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 9 - 12 Feb
- 212.178.255.63 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 15 - 18 Feb, blocked 15 Feb for 31 hours and 18 Feb for 1 week
- 212.178.251.41 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 24 Feb - 3 Mar, in violation of the block above
- 91.148.95.226 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 3 - 8 Mar
- 212.178.238.187 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 10 Mar, blocked 24 hours
- 91.148.77.114 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 11 - 13 Mar, in violation of the block above
- 91.148.93.114 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 14 - 19 Mar
- That's enough for me. I'm blocking the latest IP for repeated block evasion, violation of the multiple accounts policy, and prolonged, egregious edit warring. Admins should not hesitate to treat in the same manner if the user pops up on another IP, and I can recommend some ranges if it comes to that. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
minimum period not met.
| Trying to save you a meeting with an aboriginal weapon. There is nothing to discuss and there is no "minimum period". (non-admin closure) John from Idegon (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why are you closing a debate so early? And reminding me when I feel aggrieved? Lack of explanation, I don't understand why you ppl feel the citations I selected have no value, do ppl even look at them? Govvy (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- What part of "take it to the article talk page" is unclear?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 22:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hasn't Arbcom decreed blocks for coy circumlocutions for boomerangs? EEng 19:23, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Question
I came across a situation today where I've already dealt with the immediate circumstance — but because there's a much longer history to it, I wanted to ask for opinions from other administrators on whether there are grounds for a longer term remedy or not.
Over the years, WP:NMEDIA's rules for the notability of radio stations have been considerably tightened up; what's relevant in this particular case is the clause that now deprecates low-power radio stations which only broadcast prerecorded tourist information as not inherently notable. Just over a month ago, one particular cluster of such stations was deleted by AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Information Radio — within the past 24 hours, however, a user named User:Nathan Jay Williams recreated all of the articles again without making any improvements to demonstrate that the stations are somehow more notable than the old versions had indicated. I speedied all of the articles accordingly, and politely explained on the user's talk page why the articles could not just be recreated again — but several hours later, he blanked his talk page, moved it to User talk:CJ Ramsey (which is not connected to a registered account), and immediately recreated all of the same articles a second time despite having already been advised that he couldn't do that.
It should also be noted that the articles in question were originally created by User:Nathan Williams. The Jay version is a new account registered on March 16 of this year; he hasn't edited Wikipedia under the old username since 2011. And while CJ Ramsey is an unregistered account, the old "Nathan Williams" has sockpuppeted in the past as CJ Ramsay — and both of the older identities were once known as regular creators of hoax articles about radio stations that didn't actually exist at all (or fake amateur Corel Draw logos for real stations). He stopped doing that just in time to avoid a permanent editblock for it, although he did once garner a two-week temp, and while his editing patterns remained problematic at times after that it never again reached the level of requiring an outright editblock.
Until now.
Literally within one day of first registering the new Jay account this month, NJW already found himself on the business end of a 24-hour editblock from another admin for repeatedly removing AFD templates from articles with active non-closed AFD discussions. So after re-re-speedying the re-re-recreated articles again, I gave NJW a 48-hour editblock for disregarding my explanation of why it wasn't acceptable.
So this is my question: should I just let the 48 hour block run out and give him another chance to continue editing Wikipedia, escalating the block only if he misbehaves again? Or given that he's already garnered two temporary editblocks in just four days, should I combine that with all the problems he's known to have caused in the past and just bump it up to permanent right now? Bearcat (talk) 02:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment - I tried to undo the inexplicable Talk Page move, and return it back to the user's actual Talk Page. Unfortunately, it's not letting me. Small problem, but I apologise nonetheless for my inability to do so. DarkKnight2149 03:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Weird...I just tried that now and it let me. Is that maybe a thing admins can do while non-admins can't because of the vandalism potential? Bearcat (talk) 03:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would assume so. One final thing of note - while I have no experience with this user, I do have experience with vandals. The user's Talk Page currently consists exclusively of a link to a seemingly random diff. This could possibly be evidence of intentional trolling or WP:NOTHERE. That's just an observation, though. DarkKnight2149 03:25, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Weird...I just tried that now and it let me. Is that maybe a thing admins can do while non-admins can't because of the vandalism potential? Bearcat (talk) 03:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Looks OK to me. Hopefully the salting will stop the activity, but if it doesn't then I don't think it would be unreasonable to start issuing longer term blocks. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:42, 21 March 2017 (UTC).
Battleground conduct by User:JaconaFrere
This user's conduct in the above thread Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Hounding by User WilliamJE speaks for itself, and JaconaFrere is continuing to make hounding accusations. I noticed the above thread and looked at some of the user's contributions. From there, I ended up at Talk:List of people from Charlottesville, Virginia, where I chimed in on an active discussion. I also removed some content from the Starkville, Mississippi article, and JaconaFrere correctly restored one of the articles I had removed while using his edit summary to gratuitously point out my spelling error. At the Charlottesville talk page, this user implicitly accused me of hounding and then reverted my response. It may have been an accidental rollback, but I'm not convinced. After I restored my comment, JaconaFrere left this comment which came across as a facetious personal attack on my competence. Administrator BU Rob13 had posted in the above thread initiated by JaconaFrere: I don't see any action as necessary here except a warning to JaconaFrere that they act in a more civil manner in edit summaries and on talk pages.
It appears that JaconaFrere has disregarded BU Rob13's warning. I will also note that this user previously came to my attention a few days ago when he posted an AfD comment that made little sense in the context of the discussion. I'm not sure what action might be warranted, but I'd prefer to be able to edit articles and participate in discussions without having my motives and competence impugned. A block would not be ideal, but it's a problem if this user can't participate in discussions without getting personal. Lepricavark (talk) 02:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Lol. After an earlier ANI discussion today, Lepricavark has appeared to be attempting to confront me, editing the last two pages I had edited, (both of which he had never edited before) and making a snarky comment on the Charlottesville list more or less stating that he's going to get me for starting an ANI discussion. He obviously had no interest in the Starkville, Mississippi page other than to seek me out, as he repeatedly misspelled the name of the article in his edit caption. I'm leaving for tonight, I am not seeking any confrontation with this individual. I apologize that he is offended by any action that I have taken, and I promise that I will not follow him around the encyclopedia.Jacona (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how you can construe removing irrelevant content from an article as an attempt to confront you personally, and there was nothing snarky in my comment in which I absolutely did not imply being out to get you. Note that I made that comment, which it now seems you intentionally reverted, after you made a personal comment about me. I misspelled the article name because I though that was how it was spelled. It's hardly the first I've had a misspelling etched into my brain. It did occur to me you might not appreciate my edit on the Starkville page, but you do not own that article. You have a tendency to take things personally, yet you laugh it off when someone else objects to your personal commentary. Lepricavark (talk) 02:42, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by user sfsound
Oshwah has done the thing. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User User_talk:sfsound, who appears to be either Matthew Katz or someone employed by him and editing on his behalf, has made several disruptive edits to articles like It's a Beautiful Day, It's a Beautiful Day (album), Matthew Katz and Moby Grape where he removed well-sourced material and added unsourced statements, many times writing in first person. He has already been blocked once. After the block was lifted, he continued to perform the same edits and ignored a request on his talk page to disclose his conflict of interest. Fbergo (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I echo your concerns. The edits here, here, and here (to name a few) add a ton of unreferenced content (some of which could be argued to be in violation of WP:BLP) and reflect a point of view that is not neutral. This is definitely disruptive and needs to stop. This user has been blocked twice this year (the second time for seven days) for disruptive editing, and it appears that the behavior has continued. I've left this user a final warning regarding the addition of unreferenced content. If this user continues this disruption, I will have no choice but to impose a longer block in order to protect the quality and integrity of these articles. If other administrators feels differently, or thinks action is warranted at this time, I have no problem with them doing what they feel is right. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oshwah: Should the edit sum with the [REDACTED] be revdel'd as a precaution. We have no idea whether this editor is really Katz despite the claim to be him and we don't know whose number this may really be. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:55, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Checking:... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC) - Update: It has been handled. Thank you for letting me know. Next time you'll want to report this privately, but no worries. ;-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oshwah: Should the edit sum with the [REDACTED] be revdel'd as a precaution. We have no idea whether this editor is really Katz despite the claim to be him and we don't know whose number this may really be. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:55, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
request for block of user @Jytdog: to prevent him from removing valid edits
| (non-admin closure) The inevitable was accepted. Kleuske (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As a preface, I take this action only after numerous attempts to help jytdog understand that there is no wp policy that prohibits discussion of primary sources. See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_134#Is_there_any_official_wp_policy_that_prevents_the_incorporation_of_primary_source_material_in_wp_articles.3F
I ask for you to consider one specific example. In the article Induced pluripotent stem cell there is a section on Safety
- At the start of that safety topic, there are 6 sections, with approximately 90% of the references not meeting the MEDRS guidelines followed by my addition of...
- The first published report of a person treated for macular degeneration with a cell-sheet derived from iPSCs was reported in 2017 in the New England Journal Of Medicine[61]. That publication and other research was reviewed independently in Science, which pointed out that the procedure was at least safe.[62]. The same issue of NEJM published a perspective about the benefits and risks of stem cell therapy.[63]
- 61 Mandai M, Watanabe A, Kurimoto Y, Hirami Y, Morinaga C, Daimon T, Fujihara M, Akimaru H, Sakai N, Shibata Y, Terada M, Nomiya Y, Tanishima S, Nakamura M, Kamao H, Sugita S, Onishi A, Ito T, Fujita K, Kawamata S, Go MJ, Shinohara C, Hata KI, Sawada M, Yamamoto M, Ohta S, Ohara Y, Yoshida K, Kuwahara J, Kitano Y, Amano N, Umekage M, Kitaoka F, Tanaka A, Okada C, Takasu N, Ogawa S, Yamanaka S, Takahashi M (2017). "Autologous Induced Stem-Cell–Derived Retinal Cells for Macular Degeneration". N Engl J Med. 376 (11): 1038–1046. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa1608368. PMID28296613.
- 62 Normile D (2017). "iPS cell therapy reported safe". Science. 355 (6330): 1109–1110. doi:10.1126/science.355.6330.1109.
- 63 Marks PW, Witten CM, Califf RM (2017). "Clarifying Stem-Cell Therapy's Benefits and Risks.". N Engl J Med. 376 (11): 1007–1009. doi:10.1056/NEJMp1613723. PMID 27959704.
- The first published report of a person treated for macular degeneration with a cell-sheet derived from iPSCs was reported in 2017 in the New England Journal Of Medicine[61]. That publication and other research was reviewed independently in Science, which pointed out that the procedure was at least safe.[62]. The same issue of NEJM published a perspective about the benefits and risks of stem cell therapy.[63]
Jytdog removed my edit (the official diff is [here]) with the comment "zero MEDRS sources."
So, my question to you administrators is whether jytdog has the backing of the community to prevent me from citing current research. It appears to me from various discussions that his view is not the mainstream consensus view of the community on this issue, and he is not following official wp policy from WP:SCIRS which specifically states "Respect primary sources A primary source... may be a valuable component of an article. A good article may appropriately cite primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. In addition, I feel that he is harrassing me by removing my edits, while not removing other material sourced to non-MEDRS sources.
Thus, I ask you to block jytdog from removing edits soley because they are based on primary sources. Note that I am not requesting a block from removing edits that are based on low quality primary sources. I strive to cite only papers published in highly respected journals. I'll save him the trouble and point out myself that I realize there is considerable discussion of the reproducability "crisis" in science, but unreliable sources can even find there way into reputable tertiary sources, as I learned and corrected here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DennisPietras (talk • contribs) 03:10, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- We're not blocking someone for someone trying to following guidelines and explaining that to you: Talk:Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell. Note you've gotten zero support from other editors for your proposed change. --NeilN talk to me 03:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Generally new editors know they are new and ask for assistance rather than tell others how things should be. There are few good editors who keep medical/biology topics clear of news-of-the-day factoids and my suggestion would be that DennisPietras should be topic banned or indeffed if they do not start taking advice very soon. The discussion at WP:VPP is unhelpful and misses several points. Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Your missing the whole point, utterly and completely. DennisPietras is not realigning on news-of-the-day factoids. He,other editors need to be able to cite the best research available. --Aspro (talk) 14:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Aspro: I think you missed adding "according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." to the end of your last sentence. --NeilN talk to me 15:05, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Your missing the whole point, utterly and completely. DennisPietras is not realigning on news-of-the-day factoids. He,other editors need to be able to cite the best research available. --Aspro (talk) 14:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, that was not part of a forgotten thing. Part of our credo is to create the best encyclopedia ever. Think JW has achieved that already. Still waiting on VPP for a determinative this is not allowed by way of policies and guidelines when primaries are acceptable under policies and guidelines. --Aspro (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Then it is you who is missing the point. WP:MEDRS states (in bold, no less): "Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content." The talk page discussion isn't going to alter that and Jytdog isn't going to be blocked for following that. Very few things are absolutely disallowed on Wikipedia but if you're advocating generally editing against a guideline, you're likely to get nowhere. Better to work on getting consensus to change the guideline instead. --NeilN talk to me 16:22, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, that was not part of a forgotten thing. Part of our credo is to create the best encyclopedia ever. Think JW has achieved that already. Still waiting on VPP for a determinative this is not allowed by way of policies and guidelines when primaries are acceptable under policies and guidelines. --Aspro (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- ”generally “. Yet, what is one to do when there are no other good source? Leave it to other editors to resort to news-of-the-day factoids? Does that make for a good informative encyclopedia? For a convincing augment one's premise have to be coherent. No longer simply and only general is it? As Solon the Lawmaker of Athens (638-558 BC) quoted (and has oft been subsequently misquoted): “Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools”. Where are the WP laws banning editors from using primaries when they are the best references for the article?... Where are they? --Aspro (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- "Generally" means "The editor who wants to break this rule needs to show why breaking it helps," not "the editors who want to enforce this rule need to prove that enforcing it helps." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- ”generally “. Yet, what is one to do when there are no other good source? Leave it to other editors to resort to news-of-the-day factoids? Does that make for a good informative encyclopedia? For a convincing augment one's premise have to be coherent. No longer simply and only general is it? As Solon the Lawmaker of Athens (638-558 BC) quoted (and has oft been subsequently misquoted): “Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools”. Where are the WP laws banning editors from using primaries when they are the best references for the article?... Where are they? --Aspro (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- From my interactions, I really think that Dennis has it in him to be a good editor in science-related topics, but he keeps getting stuck in WP:IDHT with respect to the community norm that we don't base science content on "cutting edge" reports that have yet to become widely recognized as correct. Wikipedia isn't a science journal. He's been threatening Jytdog since their first interaction, and needs to take a good look in the mirror instead. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I think it was a mistake to move this from a policy noticeboard (VPP) to a behavioral noticeboard (this). So far it has only served to confuse the issue, since a large part of the discussion at VPP is about science articles in general rather than MEDRS articles. The distinction is absolutely critical. Zerotalk 23:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't see this on VPP, but yes. This specific issue is a content dispute. DennisPietras, this is the wrong place for this. Good places to ask for feedback on edits about human biology are WT:MED and WT:MCB. To venture a tiny bit into the content aspect, the argument you both should be making is about whether this content is due weight. It will always be appropriate, if an article says "It has been reported that X", to reference the source in which X was reported. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @NeilN:OK I accept your decision not to block jytdog. Bye. DennisPietras (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Disruptive Behaviour
| Now blocked one week for edit warring by User:Ponyo. EdJohnston (talk) 22:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Apollo The Logician (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Religious views of Adolf Hitler (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Irish indentured servants (edit talk history links watch logs)
Apollo The Logician has been involved in edit warring and disruptive editing behaviour. Most recently at Religious views of Adolf Hitler. No reasoned offers for discussion are taken on board and 'his' combative attitude continues to disrupt the editing process for editors. See [[76]] and [[77]] and [[78]]. I have experienced his combative editing previously but let it go. But this time I would like him to be formally warned or other sanctions to be taken against him so he doesn't repeat his disruptive behaviour. Robynthehode (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Those edits are from three days ago, and if you look at Apollo The Logician's talk page you'll see that they've already been warned about them by an Admin. What else would you like to happen? Exemplo347 (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Firstly, it was not clear that Admin had warned him. So to tell it is Admin rather than just another editor you have to go to their user page and search for a box saying they are an Admin? Not clear is it really?. Secondly Apollo The Logician came back with attitude. So not only does he act disruptively but carries on with his general attitude when he is warned. Of course he could have not realised that it was an Admin warning him but the Admin didn't bother to say that they were an Admin in their post on his talk page. Or am I missing something here? Honestly as an answer to your last question - block him - at least for a reasonable time to allow him to reflect on his behaviour. Robynthehode (talk) 19:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- What attitude? Can you provide evidence for that claim? Also I know it was an admin, I clicked on his/her profileApollo The Logician (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Firstly, it was not clear that Admin had warned him. So to tell it is Admin rather than just another editor you have to go to their user page and search for a box saying they are an Admin? Not clear is it really?. Secondly Apollo The Logician came back with attitude. So not only does he act disruptively but carries on with his general attitude when he is warned. Of course he could have not realised that it was an Admin warning him but the Admin didn't bother to say that they were an Admin in their post on his talk page. Or am I missing something here? Honestly as an answer to your last question - block him - at least for a reasonable time to allow him to reflect on his behaviour. Robynthehode (talk) 19:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was just about to warn this user for skirting 3RR on Irish indentured servants, only to see that they had an ANI open. From their talk page history, they've already received (and blanked) eight or nine 3RR warnings since the start of the year. Here's four additions of "and women" to the same sentence in the last 25 hours: 1, 2, 3, 4 (the fourth ignoring a talk page discussion about it). --McGeddon (talk) 22:33, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- That is nonsense.Apollo The Logician (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- As Apollo The Logician continues to edit war across multiple articles despite a clear warning that said disruption would result in a block (and even as this AN/I discussion is taking place), I have blocked them for one week.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Incident with 217.118.78.104 (Clearing Other Users' Sandboxes)
| User temporarily blocked. Should their vandalism persist, further incidents will be handled at WP:AIV. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 21:32, 23 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello everyone. I am currently working on an article in my sandbox, and have been slowly putting together references. For some reason, the user 217.118.78.104 has deleted all of my references on multiple occasions for no apparent reason (as seen in these two edits: 1 and 2). I would like this person to be blocked to prevent him or her from continuing to interfere with my editing in my sandbox. As you can see from this person's edit history here, he or she has a history of editing other people's sandbox. I would greatly appreciate feedback on this matter. Thank you. Aoba47 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've given then a warning to not do this again. Should they persist, please report to AIV, and a block would likely follow. I've also notified the user about this current discussion. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- And 2 minutes after I warn them, they go right back to blanking users sandboxes. Blocked for 31 hours. In the future, just post a report to WP:AIV (after properly warning the editor of course). RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Magnolia007
| Blocked indefinitely. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 13:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
SPA Magnolia007 has been consistently whitewashing the article Ali Shilatifard by removing negative material, adding puffery, and edit warring to remove a COI tag added by editors who noticed his activities.
When a user left him a good faith COI message, he responded By accusing said editor of having a COI themselves and threatening to report them to an admin.
Could we get an admin to step in here and at least get Magnolia to cool his Jets, so to speak? 2600:1017:B020:C6D5:6041:ADE7:352F:5803 (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I dropped a caution on their talk page. Hopefully that will resolve this issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I sure hope so, but these 3 diffs make me think a CIR issue is at play here too: [79] [80] [81]. We'll see. 2600:1017:B020:C6D5:6041:ADE7:352F:5803 (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely. Another promotional SPA, another indefinite block. Compare my comment in the section "COI editing on Makau W. Mutua" immediately below. User:Ad Orientem's warning does not seem to have had the desired effect. Bishonen talk 13:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC).
Fangusu range block request
Fangusu has been using the 2607:FB90:54* range recently (link shows edits since new year, but activity has been mostly within last week). Info on recent socking can be found at User:EvergreenFir/socks#Fangusu. There's a link to the SPI page there and the LTA page. There are existing range blocks in place for this user already. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's a really large range... I think the best solution to this is to block as we see them. Unless anyone else has input? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- There aren't very many edits. I think collateral damage is probably more important than the size of the range. I'm not really familiar with this vandal, though, and it's not easy for me to tell which ones are Fangusu. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think this is Fangusu, or at least not only her. A couple of her usual ranges WHOIS to a university which counts several known trolls as its students, including your end date change vandal. It's been a long time since I've seen Fangusu try to add anything new to the encyclopedia, she's been obsessed with restoring her old edits lately. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 10:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- In the range you posted, it looks to me like these users are the date change vandal:
- 2607:FB90:540:A1D6:9A6:DC0B:9B9F:4D8C (talk · contribs · WHOIS), already blocked
- 2607:FB90:543:1B8A:A0AE:B5:A710:1398 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), stale
- I don't think any are Fangusu. Several are random unrelated vandals. This isn't enough to construct a range, so I mined the range's contribs through 2016 as well. We've got a user who likes Wrestlemania, one that's into The Eagles, one that likes to update lists of Nickelodeon broadcasts, but none that stand out as any of these LTA cases. One-off IP blocks are probably fine here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- There aren't very many edits. I think collateral damage is probably more important than the size of the range. I'm not really familiar with this vandal, though, and it's not easy for me to tell which ones are Fangusu. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Lute88 regarding Ukrainian collaborationism with the Axis powers
On the mentioned page, I re-phrased a sentence where the Holodomor was written as "genocide", by removing such words such as "genocide" and "engineered" as this description was not neutral. As written in Holodomor genocide question, many historians and scholars do not believe that the Holodomor falls under the definition of "genocide", as well as there being no international consensus that the Holodomor was genocide. The genocide question still carries on to this day, and therefore, the sentence was not respecting neutrality, as writing that the Holodomor was "genocide" is favoring one side. As I changed this, Lute88 reverted the edit, and I replied with that the genocide label was still disputed, where he reverted my edit again, claiming that it wasn't disputed, and when I linked the user to the Holodomor genocide question page after editing again, he reverted the edit without giving an explanation, and kept doing so, yet again without reason, leaving me to presume that the user is simply ignoring facts that is presented to them. 92.6.41.228 (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Lute88 reverts all the edits which potentially may be perceived as contradicting pro-Ukrainian POV. They rarely bother to provide a reason.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: The IP has not, however, pointed out the diff in question. Their change doesn't actually make any sense within the context. Both versions are awkward, but the IP is edit warring their changes. There's an article talk page for discussion of the phrasing. I think it needs modification, but 'Soviet' is not a replacement for 'Russian' for starters. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:53, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- This seems to be a content dispute. Coretheapple (talk) 20:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- To entirely eradicate the word "genocide" from these events is a white wash. While there may be a difference of opinion as to the application of the word "Genocide", the fact of the controversy is incontrovertible. This is a content dispute that should be worked out on the talk page of the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:35, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- I just don't see an editor behavior issue here, that's all. I have no opinion on the content issue. Coretheapple (talk) 20:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- This does not 'delegitimise' the Holodomor - it is still mentioned without any sort of denial or questioning, and links to the Holodomor article, a better solution than giving a disputed label, as the edit was on the summary. I agree that there could be further improvements, but reverting everything without reason is not a good approach at all. Also, you have falsely accused me of using an 'IP hopper' - falsely accusing someone on the spot is a form of cyberbullying on Wikipedia. In fact, I have a dynamic IP address which is the common form these days, utterly pathetic behaviour, not surprising. 92.7.0.121 (talk) 18:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
revert war on Korean dialects, disputes regarding language family categorization
This is regarding editors using the IPs 117.53.77.84 and 211.54.2.241. I was just doing spot-editing of some pages I was looking at a week or so ago, and basically got pulled into this back-and-forth reversion "war" with this editor. The pages I specifically refer to are the following:
- Gyeongsang dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Jeolla dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Gangwon dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Pyongan dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Hwanghae dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Chungcheong dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Hamgyong dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Gyeonggi dialect (edit talk history links watch logs)
- Korean dialects (edit talk history links watch logs)
The specific modifications I made to those pages, categorically-speaking, were:
- Changing the language family color from "Altaic" to "isolate"; I justified this change because of the discrediting of the Altaic language family.[1][2][3][4]
- Adding estimates of speaker populations and the relative accuracy of those estimates. I reached my estimates of estimated speakers for each dialect by using South Korean population data from 2014, North Korean population data from 2008, and Korean diaspora population estimates from 2015 (with regards to the proportions of dialect speakers in the diaspora, I admitted in my edit explanations that there is a substantial fudge factor involved; I estimated that within the diaspora, at least half spoke the Standard Korean/Gyeonggi dialect, maybe a quarter spoke the Gyeongsang dialect, and smaller proportions spoke the other dialects, I didn't attempt to reconcile these proportions with the large number of ethnic Koreans in the diaspora who can't speak Korean at all).
I made assorted modifications to the pages (e.g. adding a "citation needed" tag for unsourced claims, etc.) as I saw fit.
At first, the individual doing the reverting left no explanation. When I left a note on that IP's talk page, I received subsequent responses in Korean. While I am fluent in Korean, I found it inappropriate that the editor, who may have little or no knowledge of English (which would explain the lack of explanation for the reverts), left a message on an English-language talk page almost entirely in Korean. At any rate, the rationale that individual gave for the reverts were as follows: 1) because the Turkish, Mongolian, and Manchu languages still use the Altaic family tag/color (these were formerly lumped together under the Altaic umbrella as the core grouping), this is valid for Korean (which, by the way, does not follow; only certain expanded versions of Altaic ever included Korean), and 2) province population estimates are not a valid surrogate for numbers of speakers of local dialects. I replied (in Korean) that the Altaic language family was discredited and thus the Turkish, Mongolian, and Manchu language family/color tags were also therefore incorrect, and that the point of estimating the number of speakers was not to obtain a highly accurate estimate but rather to provide a sense of relative scale of speaking population. The editor's response to my objection to the Altaic color/tag was that the use of the color was not necessarily an acceptance of the grouping (the references I provided evidently were sufficient for the author to concede that point) but for the sake of consistency.
My edits are sourced and corroborated in other references, and while I've asked for semi-protection for these pages to nip this revert war in the bud, some individuals have recommended that I bring this series of incidents here.Ecthelion83 (talk) 16:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- familycolor Altaic is not about an language family. It's just an areal classification along with Khoisan, Amerindian, Papuan, Australian, Caucasian, and Paleosiberian. See Template:Infobox language family.
- There aren't any statistics about the linguistic demography published by the SK government. Ecthelion83 has misunderstood each SK province's population data as each dialect's population data. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Using familycolor Altaic to the Korean language was already accepted. See 1 and 2 --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Note that the link for Altaic (areal) on Template:Infobox language family links to Altaic languages. Again, the Altaic classification is discredited; we should begin discontinuing its use. There is no rationale on Template:Infobox language family that provides any sort of published authoritative documentation for the use of the Altaic tag in any form for Korean, only an exhortation that the language family tab be appropriate. The appropriate language classification for Korean at the moment is language isolate.[1][2][3][4] The one change by User:Florian Blaschke is justified by "we use Altaic as a colour for the areal group" - it should be noted that he is a scholar in Indo-European linguistics, and as far as we can tell he has no relationship to Korean, so it is unclear what he means by "we," and as he is not a primary researcher in Korean (and even if he was), he provides no published documentation for this arbitrary classification.
- I haven't confused population data for speaking population; if you even read my original discussion here, you should note I am well aware of inaccuracies in making estimates as I did (but, since you clearly missed it, I repeat: the point of estimating the number of speakers was not to obtain a highly accurate estimate but rather to provide a sense of relative scale of speaking population; I am aware that a provincial population estimate does not necessarily translate into an accurate estimate of the number of speakers of thats province's local dialect - I just did a best-guess or "ballpark" estimate because those dialects' infoboxes lacked these numbers).Ecthelion83 (talk) 17:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Altaic (areal) means the colour is just an areal classification, not about a language family. So there is no reason stopping to use it.
- Population of each Province doesn't mean each dialect's population. For example, people from Western South Gyeongsang (e.g. Jinju, Sacheon) and Northern North Gyeongsang (e.g. Andong) use somewhat unique dialects. These dialects aren't as same as mainstream Gyeongsang dialect. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- We don't have to fill in the gap about 'speakers'. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 17:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Again, even the areal classification for "Altaic" is questionable, as the entire hypothesis has been discredited.
- You are just repeating what I have already noted. The Korean dialect pages refer to provincial-level variances in the spoken Korean language; I believe that the fact that a high degree of accuracy in the number of speakers is difficult to obtain (especially given the large size of the Korean diaspora) does not mean we should leave the estimated number of speakers in each dialect's infobox blank. In addition, for an estimate of speakers based on provincial population to be so inaccurate as to be invalid, the degree of permanent migration in and out of each province would have to be substantial, and as far as I know most migration within Korea is not of the permanent kind (with the exception of migration to Seoul and Busan), so using population estimates to partly approximate a number of speakers is reasonable. If anything, given the degree to which many Koreans can easily speak multiple dialects (usually one's home dialect plus Standard Korean, i.e. the Gyeonggi dialect spoken in Seoul), the number of speakers of some Korean dialects may exceed the population of the provinces from which they originate.Ecthelion83 (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I should add that the other editor's rationales do not justify mass reverting behavior. We have been "talking," so to speak, on each other's talk pages, but we are basically reiterating the same argument we are having here.Ecthelion83 (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Take a breath Folks, this is clearly a content dispute and Administrators are unlikely to pick sides. Have you tried discussing the changes on the Talk page of the article? If so, your next step should be to start a Request for Comment discussion on the talk page. If that fails, Dispute Resolution is the next step. I'm not sure who advised you to bring this here, but it wasn't the best advice they could have given you: having a very public content dispute on this page will probably end badly for everyone involved. In summary: (1) Discuss on talk page. (2) Request for Comment discussion. (3) Dispute Resolution. Exemplo347 (talk) 17:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is more than 1 page whose content is in dispute, but I'll do what I can to generate a discussion on each page.Ecthelion83 (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b "While 'Altaic' is repeated in encyclopedias and handbooks most specialists in these languages no longer believe that the three traditional supposed Altaic groups, Turkic, Mongolian and Tungusic, are related." Lyle Campbell & Mauricio J. Mixco, A Glossary of Historical Linguistics (2007, University of Utah Press), pg. 7.
- ^ a b "When cognates proved not to be valid, Altaic was abandoned, and the received view now is that Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungusic are unrelated." Johanna Nichols, Linguistic Diversity in Space and Time (1992, Chicago), pg. 4.
- ^ a b "Careful examination indicates that the established families, Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungusic, form a linguistic area (called Altaic)...Sufficient criteria have not been given that would justify talking of a genetic relationship here." R.M.W. Dixon, The Rise and Fall of Languages (1997, Cambridge), pg. 32.
- ^ a b "...[T]his selection of features does not provide good evidence for common descent....we can observe convergence rather than divergence between Turkic and Mongolic languages--a pattern than is easily explainable by borrowing and diffusion rather than common descent," Asya Pereltsvaig, Languages of the World, An Introduction (2012, Cambridge). This source has a good discussion of the Altaic hypothesis on pp. 211-216.
The Korean user is probably a korean internet nationalist, he will not stop his edits and his ignorant behavior. Maybe he will even start to call us Chinese or Japanese "agents". It woulb be great to block him for some days or longer. Maybe you writte him also in korean if he do not understand english. This topic was already discussed and the result was to support the remove of the altaic color classification at least on korean and japanese, but also one the former members of core-altaic. 213.162.68.186 (talk) 18:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Edit-war/vandalism; korean nationalist use sock pupped
The korean user use two ip adresses, one mobile in seoul and one computer in seoul. He use 117.53.77.84 and 211.54.2.241
This two ip adresses edit/vandalise the same pages. He ignore all discussion pages and questions. He refuse to give a explanation. It seems that he can not even speak english.
Especially on japonic languages and related pages; on koreanic and related pages and on ainu language.
He is using unenzyclopedic way.
It would be nice if some would warn him or block him for some days, maybe he will inderstand than. Or a block for english wikipedia because of using sockpuppets.
213.162.68.183 (talk) 15:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- 117.53.77.84 is my home IP, and 211.54.2.241 is my workplace's IP.
- Familycolor Altaic is about an areal classification, not a language family. See Template:Infobox language family. It justifies using the colour to Koreanic languages and Japonic languages.
- Using the familycolor already accepted by other users. See 1, 2, 3, 4. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:57, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- He made some personal attacks against me. See 1, 2. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do agree that these are personal attacks. This should be dealt with accordingly by an administrator. I can't help with the family color or anything. Do you have any way to prove that one IP is home and one is workplace? We need something more than just your word in something this serious. I'm not an admin so I can only really help to a certain extent. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- How can I prove it? --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. Maybe an admin could help. Maybe @Boing! said Zebedee: or @There'sNoTime: could be helpful; they help at SPI. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, no time right now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. Maybe an admin could help. Maybe @Boing! said Zebedee: or @There'sNoTime: could be helpful; they help at SPI. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- How can I prove it? --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do agree that these are personal attacks. This should be dealt with accordingly by an administrator. I can't help with the family color or anything. Do you have any way to prove that one IP is home and one is workplace? We need something more than just your word in something this serious. I'm not an admin so I can only really help to a certain extent. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd just like to point out that the OP (IP #1) has been edit-warring and apparently hunting down and reverting IP #2's edits. Perhaps this should be taken into account. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe User:일성강 or User:Kumasojin 熊襲 made block evasions via the IP 213.162.68.183. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe you should stop making accusations with absolutely no probable cause or concrete evidence. You can request an investigation at WP:SPI. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd also like to point out that IP #1 (accuser) is located in a country that doesn't use Asian symbols like in the usernames above, so one of them socking as IP #1, who is on the other side of the world, is doubtful. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- See this. And 213.162.68.183 is an Austrian IP. Any questions? --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe User:일성강 or User:Kumasojin 熊襲 made block evasions via the IP 213.162.68.183. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
The user 117.53.77.84 get already blocked 4th times. Also I and other users have said him that the altaic classification for japanese and korean is obsolete. This was already discussed and the result was to support the deletion of altaic colour at least by japonic and koreanic. Also ainu language is not paleosiberian. The areal classification was accepted in past. But researches change this. We/wikipedia should update this. There are enough evidence. Also it is stated that koreanic is an isolated language. Altaic now seen as discredited by modern linguists. And if you mention areal classification, remember that korea is not in central asia. It is east asia, or sometimes north-east asia. Also you are ignoring modern facts and only belive your controversial or outdated source. I have writen you on your korean talkpage. You ignored and deleted it. Do you reguse a discussion. You only write noe to get not blocked. And even when you change or corrupt wikipedia pages it will not change the reality. Modern linguists all accept that altaic is obsolete and korean is isolated. Not to mention the newest genetic research from korean ulsan university that clearly show that koreans are not of northern origin. But you nationalists ignore all facts that do not fit your worlview. 213.162.68.183 (talk) 16:44, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- The language family and ethnicity aren't directly related. For example, are Maldivians and White British people directly related in ethnicity? Obviously they aren't.
- Ainu languages originally used a paleosiberian familycolor. But User:일성강 changed it to 'language isolate'. I simply reverted it because this user is blocked now.
- Because there aren't any Japonic and Korean 'familycolors', we have to use altaic familycolor. --117.53.77.84 (talk) 16:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Administrator note I don't know what kimuchi is, but you only get one warning for personal attacks([82]), 213.xx, and this is it. El_C 16:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Than time has come for wikipedia to update the colour classification. As the classification is still controversial a areal family of koreanic and japonic(including ainu) would make more sense than the obsolete altaic one. And i am sorry for the verbal attack. 213.162.68.183 (talk) 16:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- You have a couple of options here: list a Request for comment; get a Third opinion; try the Dispute resolution noticeboard; or any of the other Dispute resolution steps. El_C 17:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Administrator note As the IP was given a final warning prior to them continuing to make aspersions about Korean "nationalists", I've blocked their IP. The other IP that was edit-warring with them has been blocked as well, as this isn't their first EW offence. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
www.beerglasses.eu
- Pint glass (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
- 46.199.38.233 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 213.7.116.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 46.199.15.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 46.199.56.152 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
@McGeddon: Spam link repeatedly inserted by a different IP each time. Maybe start with page protection. Target page looks non-commercial and I don't think it's being inserted anywhere else yet. Kendall-K1 (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- It's also being added to beer glassware. You can see it on the range contribs. Coffee semi-protected pint glass, but we might need to do a range block if it spreads to other articles. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- If the spam rate gets out of hand, you could also consider temporarily blacklisting the URL for a bit :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I found and removed an older example of it at Breweriana[83] left by 2605:e000:1525:c089:4005:8164:f476:bfcf. Since it's over a month old, and as I understand it IPv6 addresses change more often than the weather, is there any point in leaving them a notice about this discussion? BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:46, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, I'd say it's kind of pointless to alert a stale IP address. The IP addresses above are from Cyprus, and this IPv6 address geolocates to the US. It could be this is simply a popular website in its niche. This search can locate any further external links. Oshwah's idea about the spam blacklist sounds like the best solution if this becomes a burden. Sometimes, though, you just have to scan through the linksearch and revert spam. It's tedious, and you don't get barnstars for doing it, but someone has to clean up the spam that's not disruptive enough for blacklisting. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:44, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can never remember how to do a link search but I've got the article watchlisted and will report if it becomes a problem again after the protection expires. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, I'd say it's kind of pointless to alert a stale IP address. The IP addresses above are from Cyprus, and this IPv6 address geolocates to the US. It could be this is simply a popular website in its niche. This search can locate any further external links. Oshwah's idea about the spam blacklist sounds like the best solution if this becomes a burden. Sometimes, though, you just have to scan through the linksearch and revert spam. It's tedious, and you don't get barnstars for doing it, but someone has to clean up the spam that's not disruptive enough for blacklisting. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:44, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I found and removed an older example of it at Breweriana[83] left by 2605:e000:1525:c089:4005:8164:f476:bfcf. Since it's over a month old, and as I understand it IPv6 addresses change more often than the weather, is there any point in leaving them a notice about this discussion? BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:46, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- If the spam rate gets out of hand, you could also consider temporarily blacklisting the URL for a bit :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Amithvpurushothaman Suggestion
USER:Amithvpurushothaman has created a puff article Sreedeep ck alavil which was deleted once already today. I CSD'd it only to have the user remove the speedy deletion tags. He has been warned twice now. Please can we consider blocking him for 24hrs or whatever the appropriate sanction is Gbawden (talk) 10:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I see this has been done now. Frankly, I would have blocked him for longer because it is obvious he does not understand the basics. Deb (talk) 11:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
COI editing on Makau W. Mutua
| Blocked indefinitely. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 13:53, 24 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I reported this yesterday to the COI noticeboard, but nobody responded and the user with a COI resumed activity. Masoomulla (talk · contribs · count · logs) has never edited any page other than the Makau W. Mutua page, and his contributions there consist largely of scrubbing negative material. Some examples: [84], [85], [86]. He's also made contributions favorable to the subject. In short, I think we need some eyes on this article and this editor. After I left the COIN notification on his talk page, he failed to respond either at the noticeboard or on his talk page. Lepricavark (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have been reverting some of those removals. It's been going on for a month now. I would agree that the editor in question should be contacted. It does not look like an experienced editor, is definitely an SPA account, and probably doesn't know how to use the talk page. Scr★pIronIV 19:20, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Technically, it's been going on with this editor sporadically for 8 years. Lepricavark (talk) 19:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I support blocking the user indefinitely and then watching the page for sock puppets. They are clearly WP:NOTHERE, except to promote a living person. By the way, Lepricavark, you should close the COIN to avoid WP:Forum shopping. DarkKnight2149 21:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've closed the COIN discussion. Lepricavark (talk) 21:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I support blocking the user indefinitely and then watching the page for sock puppets. They are clearly WP:NOTHERE, except to promote a living person. By the way, Lepricavark, you should close the COIN to avoid WP:Forum shopping. DarkKnight2149 21:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Technically, it's been going on with this editor sporadically for 8 years. Lepricavark (talk) 19:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely. I honestly think we sometimes have way too much patience with this type of "editor". Bishonen talk 11:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC).
| Please follow the steps at WP:DISPUTE. Reporting something here is way down the list. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
And editor User:MordeKyle Keep reverting comments related to trump administration in article 2017 Olathe shooting, even though they're well sourced and associated with the incident, he previously edited that whole article without discussion which resulted in article getting temporarily protected, discussion with him didn't resolved the issues and after the the page protection was expired he still keep reverting edits without reasonable explanation. Diffs 1, 2. Redhat101 Talk 00:16, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- My lord, another report to admins? This is getting ridiculous... There are more than enough reasonable explanations going on, including many in which you were pinged in. You added this information again despite ongoing discussion. The information was reverted, again because of potential WP:BLP violations, along with other policy violations. Please read these policies and you will understand why the reverts were made, and please visit the talk page. This is ridiculous. {MordeKyle} ☢ 00:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Did either one of you try DRN before coming here or nah?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@TheGracefulSlick: It was not necessary as there is a ongoing, civil discussion that has been going on for a while, that Redhat01 has completely ignored. The most recent revert was made after he/she had been pinged in that discussion a lot of time, completely ignored the discussion, and re-added the information that has potential WP:BLP implications. It was rather clear why I reverted. I don't really know what to do in this instance, as this is the 3rd administrative attempt he/she has made to try to dictate content on this article. I have asked another editor to start and RfC in the discussion, because I am tired of being abused here. {MordeKyle} ☢ 01:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Did either one of you try DRN before coming here or nah?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @MordeKyle: Stop abusing me The page was previously got protected because of your Mass removal of content without discussion, i didn't ignored the discussion on the page, i have updated the comments with proper sources from whitehouse.gov even then you removed it. and the source had no WP:BLP violation.Redhat101 Talk 01:14, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @TheGracefulSlick: I tried my earnest to discuss the issue with User:MordeKyle, but it wasn't getting anywhere and the user has a long history of disruptive editing (Instance A, B, C). Which deterred me for any further discussion.Redhat101 Talk 01:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @MordeKyle:I have updated the relevant quotes with sources from whitehouse.gov, as was the consensus of discussion page. even then you removed without a reasonable explanation and your history of disruptive editing (Instance A, B, C), is deterring for any further discussion. Redhat101 Talk 01:06, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Administrators please look into the Tags on the entry "Nader El-Bizri"
| this is a content issue. Content issues are not addressed on this page. Use the article talk page. ~ GB fan 12:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC) Anon: Please see Wikipedia:Writing better articles, and feel free to ask questions about improving the article at The Teahouse or Wikipedia:Help desk. TimothyJosephWood 12:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Dear Administrators please look into the restoring of tags by MarnetteD as posted by Edward321 regarding the entry "Nader El-Bizri". Please check whether they are entirely justified and how improvements can be brought to this entry if needed, and whether more editors need to check it. I tried to introduce some amendments but a professional editor like you would manage to refine the entry more. Thanks 2A02:C7D:36C6:8300:3DE7:5B4A:4EE8:E3CB (talk) 10:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Somehow I got on Milcho Manchevski and was shocked to see how much puffery and promo was on it. I removed all the bad stuff (about 80% of the total conten) and began to investigate who was responsible for all this. I also checked various articles associated with Milcho (his films) and have come up with several SPA promo accounts that may be socks of this one: User talk:Davidklausner1 Now Mr.Klasuner 1 did say he was Milcho's agent and wanted to drive traffic to his website, but not a confession of sock-mastering. These are the SPAs in question:
- Davidklausner "Milcho Manchevski's assistant"
- Dragan.atanasov
- 2017reception
- Pmm1112
- Daronpan
These are the articles affected:
I'm posting this before I do a mass nuking of PROMO, puffery, redlinks, and then PROD everything that might not be notable so that everyone can see the state of the article and take appropriate actions. I also don't know if this should be duplicated at SPI or not, but a CU for the accounts (which were just notified) would be helpful. L3X1 (distant write) 21:57, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- AdditionI find it interesting that David, Daron, and 2017 all were editing at the same time, and 5 days after David's last edit Daron begins. L3X1 (distant write) 23:01, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Is considered by many to be one of the most original and innovative artists of our time for his unique blend of experimentation, poetry, emotion and a demand for the active participation of the viewer in the construction of meaning
—wow, with a straight face(!). El_C 22:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Beyond My Ken, we were making almost the exact same edit at almost the exact same time. If that isn't active participation by the viewer I don't know what is. Drmies (talk) 02:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- "Great minds..." and all that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- RfC There is an RfC on Bikini Moon over the wording of the first sentence. L3X1 (distant write) 21:36, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
2017 SWAC Women's Basketball Tournament
An anon on this page is undoing User:Yamla's rollback of a user that was blocked for engaging in sock puppeteering. Can someone familiar with this individual check the edits. Sakuura Cartelet Talk 00:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Restoring edits by a blocked sock does seem quite suspicious. I blocked the IP for a week. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Unable to edit because of misidentification with a blocked user
| IP has registered so the misidentification issue is resolved. --NeilN talk to me 16:08, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I once used a public computer apparently used by someone called Jamenta, and now my anonymous edits--almost all connected to my expertise with William James on whom I have published many articles as well as a\n Academic Press book--are all being deleted--even from the talk page--based on this misidentification. See below. Please advise. And thank you.
"Unhelpful changes./* corrections */ Please explain why correcting grammar and adding a brief quote by a well respected knowledgable source is unhelpful."
"Because you have been banned from wikipedia on your account Jamenta for inserting fringe content on wikipedia, swearing and making legal threats."
"You have an obsession with quoting William James. He was a psychologist who was duped by paranormal claims yet you quote this guy like a religious script. He he is mentioned in the article, a long quote is undue to a fringe point of view."
"It is not a long quote. I shortened it once and am willing to make it even shorter. You are apparently unacquainted with James's full writings on parapsychology. He remained open-mined, unsure, and ultimately "baffled" by parapsychology. But whatever your personal opinion about James, it is not serving Wikipedia--a forum dedicated to balancing different opinions--well here. A minimum, specific reason of support by a well-respected authority on Myers specifically and parapsychology in general, is essential to match the many reasons opposed by other, far obscurer, and by no means better vetted, authorities."
"Once again, the Jamenta thing is false. It was assumed because I posted from a public computer. I have no idea who Jamenta was or is. Please address the substantive issue raised here pertaining to this article." 71.167.134.66 (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- So Jamenta does not stantd for William James? But both of you have an interest in parapsychology...? What administrative action are you seeking. Please be brief. El_C 23:24, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sure sounds like a duck to me. [87][88][89][90][91][92][93][94] --Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just happened to be passing through ANI (ugh, why did I do that) and it's somewhat surprising nobody more invested in this issue has noticed this, but: it is obvious from Jamenta's early contributions how his username came to be, and El C's hypothesis is incorrect. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:20, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I am looking to have the capacity to suggest edits based on my expertise. If the first step I need to take is to appeal this misidentification with Jamenta so that it never arises again I will begin that appeal. Once again, I am an Academic with a significant publication history. 71.167.134.66 (talk) 00:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
And I have no idea who Jamenta is. The computer I used, ill-avisedly I now see, was with a huge law firm, with a staff of 800 people. Lots of people are interested in parapsychology. Some, alas, bringing to it more heat than light. 71.167.134.66 (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2017 (UTC)I can show you my Academic bona fides. You would have to believe I was some sort of Jekyll/Hyde character to be posting like the examples I saw.71.167.134.66 (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Who was it that just removed my last post here? : “Create an account and then you will no longer be anonymous”. Wikipedia:Why create an account? --[[User:Aspro Aspro]] ([[User talk:Aspro talk]]) 01:10, 17 March 2017 (UTC) Was it anonymous user 71.167.134.66 ? --Aspro (talk) 01:53, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it was [95]. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- And too bad, because it's the intuitive thing to ask: why not register an account? It only takes half a minute. El_C 02:04, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- 71.167.134.66 - Whether you are Jamenta or not, we cannot take your word for it that you are William James. You could go to WP:OTRS and ask them how to go about providing them with the information they need to prove your identity, but (I'm not absolutely certain, but I think) you will probably need to create an account to do that, since we can't have the proven "William James" flitting about from one IP to another, that would set up a situation where just about any IP could say that they were William James. On the other hand, if anyone is really convinced that you are Jamenta, they can file a sockpuppet investigation report (SPI), and if admins decide the evidence is sufficient you can be blocked from editing, whether you have an account or not.If anyone has corrections to this information, please feel free to jump in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your time here. I can create a user name with my real name, but what is to keep my real name from being identified with this Jamenta person? Should I just disown the identity when I sign on, and make my appeals about it therefrom? One other concern: My sense is that NPOV is not always enforced when it comes to parapsychology. Can an Administrator override a trigger happy editor like Mr. Macon here. Can a pile-on of obscure critics really not be answered by one well-sourced renowned critic? If you find my changes serve the interest of fair play can you revert them now? That would be encouraging. There is little point in my continuing to try to balance out a pile of negative references with one positive reference if it will always be reverted by those, like Mr. Macon and company, who apparently does not believe parapsychology deserves a NPOV.71.167.134.66 (talk) 02:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV does not mean that all points of view are treated equally. Please read WP:FRINGE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Understood. Would very much appreciate hearing from the Administrator community whether they think Mr. Macon's deleting my sourced James review of Myers Phantasms of the Living in the 2 Wikipedia articles it appears in, an insertion I made to balance out the pile-on of obscure detractors, was in keeping with "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."71.167.134.66 (talk) 11:36, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- That isn't the role of Administrators and probably belongs at WP:NPOVN. Doug Weller talk 11:54, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Your edit was reverted because I believe (see WP:DUCK) that you are blocked user Jamenta, and additions by blocked users editing as an IP in order to evaid the block may me deleted on sight. The question you ask above is not for this noticeboard. I would also note that, when you posted at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Violation of fair and balanced policy you did not limit yourself to the question you asked above, but instead repeated your "I am not Jamenta" song and dance, a topic which belongs here.
Thank you, Doug. I will go there71.167.134.66 (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2017 (UTC). Tho at some point the Administration community might need to weigh in on what seems to be a concerted effort by a group of Editors to prevent a balanced reporting of the history of parapsychology. WP: FRINGE does not clarify whether Skeptical Extremism or the American Association for the Advancement of Science should determine the viability of James's openminded approach to parapsychology.71.167.134.66 (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
There is strong evidence 71.167.134.66 is the banned user Jamenta himself or associated with that user.
- Jamenta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (Jamenta's favourite two people were William James and Frederic Myers) Jamenta was banned for inserting repeated fringe content, swearing and finally making legal threats.
- 208.194.97.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) which 71.167 has admitted being was blocked by two different admins as Jamenta. This IP was pushing fringe content of William James at Watseka Wonder. Check this IPs talk-page. This IP registers to a law firm.
- 71.167 has also been creating sock-puppets. These are him which he admitted: myerslover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), psychicbias (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He said he forgot his password but this is false. He later logged in on psychicbias to leave a comment, but then left another comment on his IP to pretend to be two different users. Check the history at Frederic W. H. Myers.
- It is aslo likely this user has other sockpuppets on the Myers article. My conclusion is that this user is Jamenta or at a minimum associated with that individual. In his defense his wrote that over 800 people worked in the building he was working at on his own IP, but really? Two people have the exact same interest in James and Myers and moan about "sceptic bias"? Whoever this person is, he is not honest. I am all for letting people use wikipedia who make constructive edits and giving people a second chance, but this user is nothing more than a pseudoscience promoter. He fails to understand wikipedia policies on fringe material, he seems to think over a hundred years old opinions from credulous paranormal believers like Myers are reliable sources of information. He has no decent edits, not here to build an encyclopedia all he wants to do is push fringe content. He will never give up doing this, every edit he will make will be controversial and just stir up repeated arguments like he has done before. He is now stirring on another noticeboard. I think it would be best if this guy Jamenta was blocked. 82.132.242.74 (talk) 21:11, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have to concur with 82 above. All those IPs are Jamenta or closely related somehow. I've never seen anyone else with the obsession for James and Myers and the willingness to try to argue that "evidence" over a century old outweighs more current sources. Does this have to go to SPI or can an admin just DUCK block these accounts? I'm not sure how viable a range block is. Maybe protect the effected articles for a bit? Capeo (talk) 22:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- 82's analysis is very convincing. I would think the best option would be that all the accounts be duck blocked, and the editor's IP edits continue to be deleted as block evasion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- {{checkuser needed}}
Clerk declined - CheckUser will not disclose the IP address(es) of a named account. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:24, 18 March 2017 (UTC) - SPI clerk comment: 82's analysis is missing diffs, and I can't find where 71.167 supposedly admitted to operating any other accounts. I completely agree with I am One of Many that this user's edits bear very little similarity to the angry rants and legal threats of Jamenta. If there's something I've missed, please make a report at WP:SPI. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:57, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- {{checkuser needed}}
- 82's analysis is very convincing. I would think the best option would be that all the accounts be duck blocked, and the editor's IP edits continue to be deleted as block evasion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have to concur with 82 above. All those IPs are Jamenta or closely related somehow. I've never seen anyone else with the obsession for James and Myers and the willingness to try to argue that "evidence" over a century old outweighs more current sources. Does this have to go to SPI or can an admin just DUCK block these accounts? I'm not sure how viable a range block is. Maybe protect the effected articles for a bit? Capeo (talk) 22:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I am not Jamenta. I have no idea what a sock pocket is. I am a recognized James scholar and will sign on with my own name if that is the only way to pursue this false accusation. But there is little point in my trying to edit for fairness in my area of expertise--using James, where appropriate, to balance pile-ups of obscure and sometimes questionable authorities--if the Administrators will not support my efforts. I think it is essential to make the distinction between promoting parapsychology per se and promoting a fair and balance point of view toward historical figures and events that are part of its history. 71.167.134.66 (talk) 03:05, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a James scholar. Please, just stop. You have no interest in how James, or anyone, came to their ideas from a sociological viewpoint as an actual scholar would. It's more than clear you actually believe this stuff. Capeo (talk) 05:25, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Now he is WP:FORUMSHOPing, and for some reason has decided that I am the source of the "persecution" he is experiencing. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Violation of fair and balanced policy. We need an administrator to step in and sort this out. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:15, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- You were the person who deleted my entry. I was advised on this site to take my request for reversion to the NPOV noticeboard71.167.134.66 (talk) 03:47, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Again, several people -- not just me -- have deleted your contributions as being made by blocked user Jamenta. Please stop singling me out. Again, your claims that you are not Jamenta belong at ANI, not NPOVNB. Again, your question as to whether there is a "pileup of Myers detractors" which violate NPOV does belong on NPOVNB (ANI does not rule on content disputes), but that wasn't what you posted to NPOVNB, and that wasn't why your contributions were deleted. They were deleted as block evasion by blocked user Jamenta. And your behavior is a classic example of the law of holes. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment The IP editor and Jamenta are not the same person. It's obvious from examining the writing styles of both editors. And of course there are William James scholars. We really need assume good faith here. --I am One of Many (talk) 07:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- It looks to me like someone purposely changing his writing style in an attempt to get away with block evasion. I won't reveal all of the things I noticed (no point tutoring him on how to evade his block) but I will point out one: What are the chances that someone who writes "I have no idea what a sock pocket is" would also also write "I once used a public computer apparently used by someone called Jamenta" and "The reason I did not fight the misconception when it arose was because it was a public computer and I did not want to involve the company"? On the one hand, he implies that he has never read WP:SOCK, yet on the other, he is making excuses for using the same IP as Jamenta before anyone here has identified the two as posting from the same IP (While doing that 71.167.134.66 inadvertently revealed that he has also posted as 208.194.97.5 [96]. Also compare [97] with [98]). So he knows that checkuser exists but doesn't know what a sockpuppet is? What he didn't realize is that most admins are not checkusers and that those who are checkusers won't reveal or even check Jamenta's IP against any IP editor -- blocked editors still have full privacy right on Wikipedia, and linking a username to an IP address is a serious breach of those rights. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Not unless you want a clone of this discussion to be opened by this or some other Jamenta sock in the near future. If I and the roughly dozen other editors who have been reverting the steady stream of "new" users who just happen to be pushing the same fringe content about William James and Frederic Myers that Jamenta was pushing are wrong, we need to have an administrator tell us that so we can stop doing it. If we are right, then this latest sock needs to be told that complaining to ANI isn't going to stop the reverts. Again, can we please have an administrator sort this out and make a decision? Pretty please with sugar on top? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:04, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- The evidence of sockpuppetry is signficant, but not conclusive. I would like to propose as a resolution of this matter an application of WP:AGF and WP:ROPE: let this editor openly create an account from which to continue editing. His edits will undoubtedly be subject to substantial scrutiny, and can be judged on their merit. The situation is likely to resolve itself on those merits. bd2412 T 04:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support too. I suggested (above) that the OP created an account which would not only support his declarations of no-wrong-doing but would (if he has the wiki-spirit of co-operation) help us. No response – wants to reattain anonymity and out of reach, letting us jump through his hoops of his creation. OP says, quote: “Once again, I am an Academic with a significant publication history.” unquote. An academic's livelihood depends on s/he's work being widely disseminated. He hasn't even bothered to reference his credentials. --Aspro (talk) 16:34, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I have learned my lesson about the perils of not creating an account. I will open one later this month. If anyone follows through the work I have tried to do so far (again I am not now nor ever have been Jamenta), I believe it will be evident that my sole purpose has been to balance historical articles that are overloaded with negative responses to anything dealing with parapsychology. None of the articles I have worked on bear any resemblance to Wikipedia's noble aspirations for what an article should be. If Wikipedia decided to banish all articles dealing with parapsychology (like the New York Times pretty much now does) I would be ok with that. But once an article is allowed, it cannot just hang there as a target for darts.71.167.134.66 (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- And yet, after three editors have supported a solution that involves 71.167.134.66 registering a user name and 71.167.134.66 seemingly agreeing with that solution,[99][100] he continues arguing his case editing as an IP.[101][102][103] --Guy Macon (talk) 02:45, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I can see your point about double agreeing. I believed, perhaps erroneously, that I needed to respond to Aspro Talk's "No Response." I am still responding here now with my IP because I launched this thread, "Unable to edit because of misidentification with a blocked user," as such and thought I needed to maintain that same identity throughout. The exact same reasoning applies to why I maintained my IP on the WP:NPOVN site that an Editor here kindly referred me to. But then, you have even blocked my responses to those who responded to me there. The responses I was given were worthy of responses, which I gave. I would like to hear from an Administrator how those responses can be restored. Again, I thought it would be confusing to switch identities midstream. 71.167.134.66 (talk) 14:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC).71.167.134.66 (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I will be happy to restore those comments as soon as I see that you have registered an account and started posting using it, as you agreed to do. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Guy. I will this week. I assume no one has an objection to my initially registering an account with an anonymous name, such as "Spirit of James"? I want to be sure that the responses to my revisions will be Jamenta-free. (Again, if any good-faith Administrator needs my actual identity at this point to enforce a Jamenta-excuse ban, I will be happy to supply it.) I will also be upfront that I am mostly focused on editing in areas of my published expertise, citing authoritative sources. Please let me hear now from an Administrator if such focused editing is ultimately not appreciated as making a contribution to building an encyclopedia.71.167.134.66 (talk) 02:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You don't have to reveal your real name, ever. You can choose to do so (as I have done) and you can choose to prove it (as I have also done; just ask at the help desk if you have trouble figuring out how), but those are your choices to make. Using your real name really won't help you at all on Wikipedia, because we rely on reliable sources, not on the knowledge/expertise of our editors. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Hi 71.167.134.66. You can use your real name if you like, but you might want to take a look at WP:REALNAME and WP:WRW first. As Guy Macon pointed out, it's the quality of your edits, not your choice of username, which really matters the most . On Wikipedia, your choice of username may only turn out to be a problem if (1) it does not comply with WP:UN and (2) it gives others the impression that you have a conflict of interest when it comes to certain Wikipedia articles. However, off Wikipedia harassment can be an issue which is a possibility you might want to take into account if by chance you are a fairly well-known person. Remember that your user contributions are pretty much there for anyone to see and try to use in a manner which might not be appropriate.
- As for focused editing, there's nothing wrong per se with being a WP:SPA. However, limiting your focus to a single article or genre of articles might also limit your ability to better understand collaborative editing and how various policies and guidelines are applied on a community-wide basis. Moreover, being an SPA is not considered a good reason for not editing in accordance with these policies and guidelines. Being an "expert" with respect to a particular field may help you improve the quality of certain articles, but it does not grant you any special status; you will still be expected to edit according to relevant policies and guidelines. There are a number of WikiProjects where editors of similar interests work together on improving certain areas of the encyclopedia. The overall goal of every editor should be WP:HERE and not WP:NOTHERE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you both for these helpful tips. Obviously I anticipate more harassment for my decidedly SPA focus on NPOV balance for historical articles related to James's world--which involves a subject, parapsychology, that some Editors have openly expressed complete contempt for. I will continue to be accused of violating the SPA ban of "appear[ing] to edit for the purposes of promotion or showcasing their favored point of view," when I am trying to use my area of expertise to undo what I see as violations of same. My sole interest is in correcting obvious historical errors and distortions using respectable sources. If I use the name, "Spirit of James," some Editors who have already publicly equated an openminded approach to parapsychology (as James had) to an openminded approach to flat earth theories, will surely feel provoked and especially motivated to counter my edits. They would deny James as a respectable source for the same reason that they would deny anyone who promoted flat earth theories as a respectable source. I have already been told this explicitly on the WP: NPOVN site. But of course, as I pointed out (soon to be unblocked), there are no respectable sources--let alone esteemed scientists, Noble laureates, etc. as there are for parapsychology--who are openminded about flat earth theories. Not one. Yet I anticipate Editors will continue to see my edits as a provocation to promote their "favored point of view" that any source that advocates an openminded approach toward parapsychology, automatically qualifies as an unreliable source. Nonetheless, I still think it best to have my SPA out front, registering as "Spirit of James," by which I am referring only to his openminded spirit toward parapsychology, however much it may be misinterpreted as referring to his solid conviction in parapsychology--a conviction he explicitly stated he did not have. But if any Administrator feels this username is ill advised, please let me hear from you.71.167.134.66 (talk) 13:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- The following has been explained to you multiple times:
- Arguing about article content at ANI, as you just did (again), is inappropriate behavior. Administrators do not make decisions on content, only on user behavior.
- Arguing that you are not a sockpuppet on pages other than ANI is inappropriate behavior. Article talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article. The reliable source noticeboard is for taking about the reliability of specific sources for specific uses.
- I would add the following; now that you have agreed to start using a username as a condition of not being blocked, in my opinion, a reasonable number of questions posted to ANI or the help desk about what username to choose seems reasonable to me. I am not an administrator (I have turned down multiple offers to be nominated) but I have been here over ten years, and I don't see any problem with the username "Spirit of James". I also don't see any problem if you end up making the same arguments Jamenta made. We all agreed (see above) that, if you start editing with a username, we will all assume that you are not a sockpuppet trying to evade a block, no matter what our personal opinions on that are. I would, however, caution you to avoid making the same arguments Jamenta made and doing the same things that got Jamenta blocked.' There is some good advice about this at Wikipedia:Clean start, and I would also recommend my essay at WP:1AM. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, Guy. But again, I have no idea who Jamenta is or what he said. So as long as no one mixes us up again, as my own account will apparently assure, I don't see how clean start is relevant. Our styles, apparently, are completely different, as an Administrator here has already noted. I have not been, nor ever intend to be, abusive. I am sorry you think I had a specific article content post just now. It was very much directed at past and anticipated future User behavior as applies to SPA, and whether using my proposed name would be overly provocative. But I very much appreciate that although you are not an Administrator you have weighed in favorably on it. Pending no Administrator caveat, I will go with it. Thank you.71.167.134.66 (talk) 03:36, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Winkelvi block
| Coffee's three-month block is endorsed. There is also general consensus for an indefinite WP:0RR editing restriction, appealable in six months after the block expires if no talk page bludgeoning has occurred. Those few editors disagreeing with this proposal were mostly split between calling for WP:1RR or an indefinite block so the broadly supported stated proposal seems to be a reasonable compromise. Breaking the 0RR restriction should result in an indefinite block. An uninvolved admin or community consensus will decide if talk page bludgeoning has occurred and Winkelvi must be warned and given a chance to stop before the matter is brought to an admin or noticeboard. Furthermore, any "poking the bear" behavior will not be tolerated. --NeilN talk to me 14:48, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard is recommended.
- WP:BLOCK#Unblock requests
I would like to recuse myself at this point from further action on this block, and would instead like the community to decide on what to do with Winkelvi(talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). They have a long history of edit warrior behavior, now at 6 blocks for breaching the policy on edit-warring. I personally do not think they are going to change this pattern, and do not see any pragmatic reason to think otherwise. I suggested at most lifting the block and replacing it with a 0RR (with exceptions for blatantly obvious vandalism/spam), but there's still not evidence that this will be a net positive decision. As such, I would believe it is best if more eyes look at this and am giving my full endorsement to any community decision, even if that is a complete reversal of the block (which I do not anticipate). — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:53, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reduce the block to something far shorter (maybe a week, but I have no strong opinions)
- This was raised at ANEW by a pop-up disposable IP account, and concluded with 1 day and a 3 month blocks for two parties in trivial and fairly symmetrical edit-warring (Yes the edit-warring is real, I don't dispute that). I cannot see that such an unbalanced conclusion is at all appropriate, whatever the track record of the editors. I am particularly concerned at how it was raised! Edit warring is a problem, but disposable socks to cause trouble is a far greater one. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Endorse three months or perhaps indefRaise to indefinite block. If and when unblocked or it expires, 0RR indefinitely. How many chances do you give an editor? Five? Six? A dozen? I first ran into Winkelvi in Bess Myerson a couple of years ago, and it's the only true nightmare I experienced on Wikipedia. Enough already. Coretheapple (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2017 (UTC) Amended, per subsequent comments. Coretheapple (talk) 20:13, 18 March 2017 (UTC)- I suppose if anyone goes to WV's talk page to investigate, they'll see there are at least 6 admins who already support an unblock with an indefinite 1RR restriction, which I'm planning to enact on Monday, if no one has done it before then. Coffee opposes that and so brought it here. There was some vague accusation that WV was adminshopping before this was brought here, so it's worth pointing out that among the admins supporting this are an unpinged admin who has previously blocked him for a month (me), an unpinged admin who has previously declined a more lenient unblock request (LB),
an unpingeda pinged (sorry, my mistake, she was pinged) admin who, I believe, has previously issued WV a topic ban (Bish), and another unpinged admin (Ritchie). None of the admins who were pinged by WV are supporting a straight unblock, and none of them have reputations for shady behavior or favoritism. It seems to me that 6 admins all agreeing on a course of action for an unblock, and only the blocking admin opposed, is pretty close to as good a definition of consensus as you're going to get around here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:23, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- A 1RR restriction cannot be unilaterally placed by a single administrator unless the user is editing in a topic area that's under WP:AC/DS, or if it's approved by community consensus. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hence why this is the most appropriate venue for this review Bbb23 (in reply to your comment at this editor's talk page). — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:55, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- It's not a single administrator, it's 6+. And anyway, yes a single admin can impose 1RR as an unblock condition, if the blocked editor agrees. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oshwah: Errr... yes it can. WP:CONDUNBLOCK --NeilNtalk to me 21:57, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- NeilN, Floquenbeam - You're correct; if the editor agrees, then yes it's perfectly fine. Sorry, should have made that clear. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oshwah, Bbb23, and NeilN:"
If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard is recommended.
(WP:UNBLOCK#Unblock requests) — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)- I'm not making this shit up as I go along you know... — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was replying to Oshwah but did you add the right wikilink? --NeilNtalk to me 22:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- It would appear that I am making shit up as I go along... tsk tsk. WP:BLOCK#Unblock requests— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well somebody elsewhere just pulled a cowboy unblock that I disagreed with, yet I didn't feel the need to haul them to AN and make a song and dance over it; I'm going to let it go. (And I realise writing this is ironic). Likewise, 5-6 administrators have reached a consensus of what to do, why can't you as blocking admin just accept that sometimes things don't go your way and move on? Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 22:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm glad he didn't. It's a chronic issue that deserves daylight, not the shadows of a user talk page that nobody is watching. Keri (t · c) 22:44, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Ritchie333: Because it has nothing to do with me. I'm doing what I think is best for the community and encyclopedia's interests. I'm not "hauling" anyone here but the action itself, so I'm not sure where that came from. I'm confused though why any administrator would have an issue with their decision being brought here, if they actually thought it was the correct one per the community's wishes. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:46, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well somebody elsewhere just pulled a cowboy unblock that I disagreed with, yet I didn't feel the need to haul them to AN and make a song and dance over it; I'm going to let it go. (And I realise writing this is ironic). Likewise, 5-6 administrators have reached a consensus of what to do, why can't you as blocking admin just accept that sometimes things don't go your way and move on? Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 22:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- It would appear that I am making shit up as I go along... tsk tsk. WP:BLOCK#Unblock requests— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was replying to Oshwah but did you add the right wikilink? --NeilNtalk to me 22:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not making this shit up as I go along you know... — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oshwah, Bbb23, and NeilN:"
- NeilN, Floquenbeam - You're correct; if the editor agrees, then yes it's perfectly fine. Sorry, should have made that clear. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- A 1RR restriction cannot be unilaterally placed by a single administrator unless the user is editing in a topic area that's under WP:AC/DS, or if it's approved by community consensus. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: "[I]f anyone goes to WV's talk page to investigate, they'll see there are at least 6 admins who already support an unblock with an indefinite 1RR restriction ...." I don't see 6 admins supporting that. I see five admins: three friendly admins that WV pinged, one admin known for their extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks (Ritchie, who unblocked WV's one-week block after 2.5 days in February 2016 with a three-month 1RR restriction), and one with a longterm feud with the blocker. I also see a number of admins there disagreeing with that plan. Softlavender (talk) 06:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC): edited 23:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Endorse 3 months. 0RR if unblocked prematurely.Raise to indefinite block. Some people, whether on the autism spectrum or not, just don't belong in Wikipedia. Vandals, trolls, and abusive and disruptive editors can be blocked or banned, and being on the autism spectrum is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour. Far less tendentious editors have been indefd for lesser and for likewise exhausting the community's patience. This unblock, if it happens, should be the last-chance saloon for WV. Keri (t · c) 22:14, 17 March 2017 (UTC)- Endorse. When an editor who has been blocked 6 times for edit warring asserts, in apparent seriousness, that he "didn't think the first revert counted," we have found ourselves beyond the limits of WP:AGF, WP:CIR, or both. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 22:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse either continued block, 0RR, or both. I don't think this user intends to do ill, but the aggressive editing style and sometimes discourteous mode of personal interaction has exhausted the patience of the community, as seen in his block log. Speaking in my capacity as an involved editor, not an admin: just a few days ago, at Ben Carson, WV (1) edit-warred to restore challenged material of dubious relevance; (2) did so without first posting on a talk-page discussion that I had already begun; (3) failed to give a substantive rationale once he did show up at the talk page (merely "I happen to disagree" and then, once pressed, that the content "worth noting"); and (4) blindly reverted a subsequent, separate edit; inaccurately called it a revert; and failed to acknowledge the mistake. That pattern is not promising. If unblocked, then 0RR with the usual exceptions (blatant vandalism/spam), as Coffee has agreed to, would be called for. Neutralitytalk 22:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- None of the admins (except Coffee) called for 0RR; we all called for 1RR instead. I'm unsure as to whether you missed this or whether you do genuinely prefer 0RR as an option. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 22:43, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Welcome to the "community" (of people who are not watching WV's talk page). Keri (t·c) 22:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh please. You want everything handled on ANI? Drmies (talk) 00:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, just prolific, tendentious repeat offenders. What a fucking stupid question. Keri (t·c) 01:07, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- What happened here to bring people like you out of the woodwork? First you're clamoring for openness, and when I ask if you want everything out in the open you say that's a "fucking stupid question". Learn some manners, child. Drmies (talk) 18:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nowhere have I advocated for "everything to be handled on ANI". Your mocking tone and straw man ad hom tells me everything I need to know about you. Given that I have never advocated bringing "everything" to ANI, it is a fucking stupid question, designed purely to belittle me and undermine my opinion and dripping with trademark passive-aggression. As is your pathetic trolling/baiting attempt with "learn some manners, child." What's next, "your mom" jibes? As for "What happened here to bring people like you out of the woodwork?" And what exactly are "people like me"? You mean "other editors"? The "community"..? And "the "woodwork"? You mean working on the encyclopedia and not daring to question your judgment, like good little drones? What a thoroughly unpleasant little man you come across as. Keri (t·c) 18:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- At about the same time as Drmies was insulting Keri, he left an abusive post on my talk page in which he stated that my "condition" (i.e,, my Asperger's, which I just mentioned in a comment) is more "excusable" than Winkelvi's.WTF? Coretheapple (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Nowhere have I advocated for "everything to be handled on ANI". Your mocking tone and straw man ad hom tells me everything I need to know about you. Given that I have never advocated bringing "everything" to ANI, it is a fucking stupid question, designed purely to belittle me and undermine my opinion and dripping with trademark passive-aggression. As is your pathetic trolling/baiting attempt with "learn some manners, child." What's next, "your mom" jibes? As for "What happened here to bring people like you out of the woodwork?" And what exactly are "people like me"? You mean "other editors"? The "community"..? And "the "woodwork"? You mean working on the encyclopedia and not daring to question your judgment, like good little drones? What a thoroughly unpleasant little man you come across as. Keri (t·c) 18:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- What happened here to bring people like you out of the woodwork? First you're clamoring for openness, and when I ask if you want everything out in the open you say that's a "fucking stupid question". Learn some manners, child. Drmies (talk) 18:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, just prolific, tendentious repeat offenders. What a fucking stupid question. Keri (t·c) 01:07, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh please. You want everything handled on ANI? Drmies (talk) 00:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- For clarity - I do prefer 0RR, as supported by Coffee and Keri. I think it's more than justified in light of the prior blocks/sanctions. As usual, it would not apply to blatant vandalism or spam. Neutralitytalk 22:49, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Welcome to the "community" (of people who are not watching WV's talk page). Keri (t·c) 22:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- None of the admins (except Coffee) called for 0RR; we all called for 1RR instead. I'm unsure as to whether you missed this or whether you do genuinely prefer 0RR as an option. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 22:43, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse the initial block as a reasonable exercise of admin discretion. But also Support Unblock with 1RR, indefinite duration, with an expectation that it wont be eased for at least a year. Personally, I don't think 0RR is a reasonable solution outside very active and controversial areas. Monty845 22:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse and frankly 1rr is not really an incentive to not edit war. 0RR or dont bother. -edit- And after reading his talkpage, that excuse was laughably unbelieveable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:18, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Coffee's wrong in counting five previous edit-warring blocks. Before this latest one, Winkelvi had been blocked six times for edit-warring, and two of them (including the one I levied) were removed by the blocking admin well before they would have expired. Swarm unblocked with a rationale of Sock involvement demonstrated post-block, edits exempted from 3RR (i.e. WP:3RRNO), while I unblocked and then left a comment of Winkelvi was in the middle of discussing the situation; I wouldn't have blocked if I had seen this. I'd say you should count this as four EW-related blocks. Whether or not four-versus-five-versus-six should affect anyone's vote or anyone's contribution to this discussion I won't say; I just hope that people consider the entire block log and not just the blocks themselves. In particular, don't count all of the [admin] blocked Winkelvi lines, since at least my second block of him (the one-second block) was done just to add an apology to the block log; I'm thankful that nobody, so far, has carelessly just counted the number of lines. Nyttend (talk) 23:25, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- The reason for the included number is the pattern of behavior itself. Just to clarify. :) — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:27, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, perhaps the block log and blocking admins' comments deserve closer scrutiny. For example, this: "I made it clear in the last ANI that the community has had enough of this... previous blocks of up to one week have not been enough to get the point across." or this: "If you don't understand that, perhaps a month is too short, because we cannot keep indulging you in your near constant battleground behavior with everyone. Your behavior is nearly constantly disruptive. You do it even when warned, except apparently you think as long as the disruption is with some other person it is OK. Every single time you are blocked you say you've seen the light and will change, you never do. IMHO, next block for the same behavior should be indef." Keri (t · c) 23:33, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Its worth noting that in the last year they have also been blocked for deliberate harrassment of another editor and 'feuding' with other editors. Both conduct issues. That is aside from the edit-warring blocks. At what point do we accept Winkelvi is either unwilling or unable to play nicely with others? Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:43, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- All that I'm asking is that you consider the block log carefully; if that consideration leads you to think that it's time to believe that he can't play nicely with others, I won't attempt to dissuade you, just as I won't if the consideration leads you the other way. Just trying to make sure that everyone understands the facts well. Nyttend (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: I think 0RR may be justified here, given that WV's default mode is complete entrenchment in a given position without willingness to really listen or discuss -- as exemplified by Neutrality's example. This kind of behavior would be expected of a newbie, but it is unacceptable for someone who has been here 5 years and made 25,000 edits, and there has been no indication of any longterm change. I hate to say that because WV can be a good ally if he happens to agree with you, but the longterm edit-warring, tendentious editing, and personal attacks really need to be stopped. Softlavender (talk) 23:30, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocking administrator comment - Winkelvi is once again (cleverly IMO) admin shopping/canvassing: [104]. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:47, 17 March 2017 (UTC)edited — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 00:34, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why didn't you just say in a neutral way that he has made a new post on his page?? — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Because, I've never found it necessary to call a spade by any other name. This is this editors 10th block for disruptive behavior, in 4 years. I can't be asked to simply assume good faith without merit at this point. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 00:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- This pinging habit of WV's is a bit irritating, but calling it canvassing here is overblown. 01:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs)
- Coffee, you are not asked to assume anything different than anyone else. Your record of poor blocks and lack of discretion is as egregious as your description of Winkelvi. That is why we are again discussing, with much drama, your block. I would have hoped that the last reproach would have instilled a more thoughtful approach to blocking but it seems that is not the case. In any event, your block has caused much more disruption than Winkelvi. Please reflect on that and moderate your behavior and maybe take a break, say a year, from blocks. --DHeyward (talk) 03:57, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I suggest you open an ANI thread, or go to ArbCom if you actually think that you have any chance of convincing anyone of your aspersions (without evidence). I'd also like to point out that while you may think that my integrity is why this thread exists, you are actually discussing this matter because I asked you to. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 04:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Because, I've never found it necessary to call a spade by any other name. This is this editors 10th block for disruptive behavior, in 4 years. I can't be asked to simply assume good faith without merit at this point. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 00:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why didn't you just say in a neutral way that he has made a new post on his page?? — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@DHeyward: You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Coffee made a bad block and we're here to discuss or overturn it. In fact, the opposite is the case. Coffee opened this thread himself to ask for review, and there appears to be near-unanimous endorsement from everyone who wasn't canvassed. In addition, your casting of aspersions here is unwelcome and unproductive. The WordsmithTalk to me 04:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you User:The Wordsmith. DHeyward, really? Drmies (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'll add myself to the list of admins who supports an Unblock and indefinite 1RR - I have not dealt with Winkelvi before as far as I can remember. Black Kite (talk) 00:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've seen plenty of Winkelvi, and he of me. This edit warring is an unfortunate habit. The talk page discussion is so long that I can't even tell if he really got it--that this was a violation and a blockable one. Can any of you tell me if he posted that he gets it? Anyway, I supported, or maybe even proposed! an unblock with a 1R condition for three months--I'll settle for anything that resembles that, and if there's a majority for 0R, I suppose I'm OK with that too.
Softlavender, I hear you--I think Winkelvi is one of those editors that just can't help himself when given the latitude editors think 3R give them. I don't want to be the psychoanalyst here or anywhere else, but that's what I think, and I think we have quite a number of those editors, most of whom function quite well though sometimes with restrictions, and you understand I'm not naming names here. His edits, as far as I remember, aren't tendentious; sometimes they're just...persistent. That's not good either, but it's not irredeemable. He's no POV warrior, for instance. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 01:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- My use here of "tendentious" to describe WV's behaviour is intended to reflect that of WP:TE: "On Wikipedia, the term also carries the connotation of repetitive attempts to insert or delete content or behavior that tends to frustrate proper editorial processes and discussions" (my emph). WV's edits certainly meet those criteria. Keri (t · c) 01:18, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was torn whether to use the word "tendentious" or the word "WP:BATTLEGROUND". If you like I can change it to that, as it is a more accurate, yet stronger, description, and has been noted by various admins like Floq (e.g. in the diffs provided by Keri). In terms of "getting it", I don't think anyone who has filed, and/or been subject to, as many ANEW reports as he has, over the past 4 years years [105] (I count at least 75, including one a week ago), can maintain any semblance of credibility after repeatedly claiming that (he thought that) the first revert doesn't "count" in 3RR: [106], [107], [108]. He knows the drill perfectly; yesterday he clearly warned a user who had made three reverts for 3RR, and then when the editor breached 3RR with a fourth revert Winkelvi reported him [109]. -- Softlavender (talk) 01:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC); edited 03:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support indefinite 1RR regardless of unblock and neutral, leaning support on unblock Frankly, I think the project would be better off if everyone was subject to 1RR except in cases of obvious vandalism, etc. The 3RR principle, that everyone is allowed edit-war up to a certain point, runs counter to AGF, since we should be assuming as soon as we are reverted once that the reverter is acting in good faith. 3RR also places an arbitrary numeric value on what counts as an edit war, and so encourages gaming of the system by users who don't engage in talk page discussion but edit carefully to make it look like they do. The only exception I can think of is where the reverter's edit summary made it clear that they had, in good faith, misunderstood your original edit.[110] So yeah, I would probably support an unblock and indefinite 1RR for just about anyone, but given the repeated nature of this offense, and especially that the last block was repealed with a 3-month 1RR restriction I am a bit more ambivalent on an immediate unblock, and can't see how anyone could oppose the 1RR restriction regardless of whether they agree with my personal philosophy. (Full disclosure: ArbCom subjected me to 1RR in late 2015 for some edit-warring that had happened in early 2015. I had immediately regretted said edit-warring and happily accepted the 1RR restriction. It will be the last restriction I appeal, if I decide to appeal it at all.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:24, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have to say Hijiri 88 that I'm impressed by your disclosure here. I've not known many restricted editors to be so forthcoming, without requirement (at least I don't know of a requirement... correct me if I'm wrong). It is definitely appreciated by all of the reviewing editors here. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 01:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Don't mention it. Honestly the disclosure was more of an afterthought. I actually think it kinda hurts my case, as it means that my case-relevant argument (that Winkelvi was subject to a fixed-term 1RR restriction as a condition to his last unblock) is sandwiched between two long pieces about me and my principles, and so is likely to be missed. I honestly hate when people !vote in these discussions based exclusively on their own principles (or their like/dislike for various participants), so I really hope no one thinks that's what I'm doing here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have to say Hijiri 88 that I'm impressed by your disclosure here. I've not known many restricted editors to be so forthcoming, without requirement (at least I don't know of a requirement... correct me if I'm wrong). It is definitely appreciated by all of the reviewing editors here. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 01:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Too much drama. Conditionally unblock and close this kerfuffle. --DHeyward (talk) 02:08, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse block as a valid action of admin discretion. Given the extensive block log, I find the length to be perfectly reasonable and in the same situation, I likely would have imposed a block of similar length. Since the issue of unblocking with a 1RR condition has come up, I strongly oppose that. It almost never works, especially not in editors with an extensive history of edit warring like we see here. We'd be back here in less than a month. He has given some indication that he understands what he did wrong, so I would Support an unblock (or reduction in block length) with a 0RR editing restriction. The WordsmithTalk to me 03:48, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Wordsmith, hello. I'd like to point out the Winkelvi has a long history of saying that he "gets it" after a block, before reverting to the same type of behavior after being unblocked or having the block expire. Check out this message [111] that he wrote in January 2016 after receiving a 1-week block for edit-warring. After reading it, consider his behavior since then, and please tell me if you still trust him when he promises to stop. Also, I would encourage you to read these edits from May 2016 after he was blocked for feuding with another editor. [112] They demonstrate clearly Winkelvi's history of saying after a block "I didn't know what I did was wrong, but now I do, and I won't do it again." I think we're at the point where we can stop giving him the benefit of the doubt. Due to this, and also his repeated history of behaving inappropriately on talk pages, I politely and respectfully encourage you to modify your position to supporting an indefinite block. Display name 99 (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: I have seen that, yes. I understand that he's said that before, which is why I only support unblocking with the mandatory 0RR restriction. I'm big on forgiveness , so I'm not going to outright switch to supporting nothing but an indef, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if that's what needed to be done. Consider me Neutral on that. The WordsmithTalk to me 18:07, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Wordsmith, hello. I'd like to point out the Winkelvi has a long history of saying that he "gets it" after a block, before reverting to the same type of behavior after being unblocked or having the block expire. Check out this message [111] that he wrote in January 2016 after receiving a 1-week block for edit-warring. After reading it, consider his behavior since then, and please tell me if you still trust him when he promises to stop. Also, I would encourage you to read these edits from May 2016 after he was blocked for feuding with another editor. [112] They demonstrate clearly Winkelvi's history of saying after a block "I didn't know what I did was wrong, but now I do, and I won't do it again." I think we're at the point where we can stop giving him the benefit of the doubt. Due to this, and also his repeated history of behaving inappropriately on talk pages, I politely and respectfully encourage you to modify your position to supporting an indefinite block. Display name 99 (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- It seems to me we should note all of the admins that Winkelvi has been ping-canvassing from his talk page [113], [114]: MelanieN, Diannaa, Bishonen, JamesBWatson, Anna Frodesiak, Drmies, Bbb23, Laser brain, NeilN, Ponyo, Ritchie333, Floquenbeam. (Those are "nopings" on my end.) Although I think Coffee is being a bit aggressive in his insistence not to accede to the other admin opinions on WV's talkpage, those admins were all canvassed except Floquenbeam and Laserbrain, whereas it is the community at large who bears the brunt of WV's behavior, and therefore the community should probably have a voice in this matter, given the very long history, in my opinion. Softlavender (talk) 03:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- That is quite in fact why I brought this here. I don't have enough energy to try to discuss this matter with that many people all at once (by myself), and it is my personal opinion that these admins do not a consensus make. I believe firmly in the community's ability to decide what is best in matters like this, and as such have deferred this matter to you all. Laser brain declined the original unblock request and another formal one was not made, WV instead decided to use a system of pings to get unblocked. Obviously, I have grave concern for such a system... and WP:ADMINSHOP shows that our community does as well. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 03:51, 18 March 2017 (UTC)UTC)
- Huh. I'm normally inclined to agree with Drmies in cases like this, but I don't here, as that definitely looks like canvassing. I've never quite understood why something can only be called "canvassing" if the users were specifically contacted on their talk pages, especially in cases like this where that is impossible and pinging on one's own talk page is all one can do. That's way too many people for Winkelvi to be pinging. The fact that all or at least most of them are respectable Wikipedians who aren't likely to come to his aid just because he canvassed them doesn't change the fact that he did canvass them. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:08, 18 March 2017 (UTC) (edited 04:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC))
- Hijiri88, I don't think Winkelvi can expect me to agree or jump to his defense if the position is indefensible--in this case, the block itself was justified and I said so. BTW, I don't think that canvassing need come by the way of some sort of notification; a ping will do as well. Drmies (talk) 04:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- My apologies for the lack of clarity. I meant that in this particular case I don't agree with your assessment that
calling it canvassing here is overblown
since whether or not the apparent intent or actual effect resembles legit votestacking, accusing someone who pings that many users of canvassing/admin-shopping can't possibly be overblown. I didn't mean to directly equate you with the "if it's only a ping, it can't be canvassing" crowd. Clarified accordingly. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- My apologies for the lack of clarity. I meant that in this particular case I don't agree with your assessment that
- Hijiri88, I don't think Winkelvi can expect me to agree or jump to his defense if the position is indefensible--in this case, the block itself was justified and I said so. BTW, I don't think that canvassing need come by the way of some sort of notification; a ping will do as well. Drmies (talk) 04:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Wow, yeah, (apparently) bypassing WP:UNBLOCK in favor of pinging 8 friendly admins is not good. Softlavender (talk) 04:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Huh. I'm normally inclined to agree with Drmies in cases like this, but I don't here, as that definitely looks like canvassing. I've never quite understood why something can only be called "canvassing" if the users were specifically contacted on their talk pages, especially in cases like this where that is impossible and pinging on one's own talk page is all one can do. That's way too many people for Winkelvi to be pinging. The fact that all or at least most of them are respectable Wikipedians who aren't likely to come to his aid just because he canvassed them doesn't change the fact that he did canvass them. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:08, 18 March 2017 (UTC) (edited 04:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC))
- That is quite in fact why I brought this here. I don't have enough energy to try to discuss this matter with that many people all at once (by myself), and it is my personal opinion that these admins do not a consensus make. I believe firmly in the community's ability to decide what is best in matters like this, and as such have deferred this matter to you all. Laser brain declined the original unblock request and another formal one was not made, WV instead decided to use a system of pings to get unblocked. Obviously, I have grave concern for such a system... and WP:ADMINSHOP shows that our community does as well. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 03:51, 18 March 2017 (UTC)UTC)
- A year ago Winkelvi was given a 1RR restriction for three months as a condition of an early unblock: [115], [116]. He doesn't seem to have learned anything from that sanction. That would seem to indicate that whatever happens with this discussion, the sanction should be longer and/or stricter. Softlavender (talk) 03:49, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Endorse blockEndorse block, support indef There's only so much WP:ROPE you can throw out. It's been shown that 1RR can't do much, so I really doubt the effectiveness of 0RR at preventing the same WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Stikkyy (talk) (contributions) 05:07, 18 March 2017 (UTC)- Support 0RR for a duration of one year and unblock (after which WV can appeal the sanction in a community discussion and if failed, every six months thereafter) 1RR clearly hasn't cut it before and I doubt that increasing the duration is helpful. I agree with Anna's judgement of the editor, I've seen them elsewhere but I think it's better if they stay away from any kind of reverts for a while. --QEDK (愛) 05:20, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: I was curious about Coretheapple's mention above of his "nightmare" encounter with Winkelvi on Bess Myerson two years ago and checked that out. It does indeed seem to have been a nightmare, and in my opinion is representative of Winkelvi's inability to, and refusal to, brook disagreement. He appears incapable of letting go. Winkelvi arrived at the article here: [117], and made 120 edits to it in 2.5 days, including massively, heedlessly, endlessly, and obstinately edit-warring with Coretheapple and Alanscottwalker (edit-warring begins here: [118], clicking "Next edit" from there on out is quite instructional). This resulted in Winkelvi being reported at ANEW [119] and the article being locked for a week, at which time Winkelvi left the article completely. Not however before covering the article talk page with endless IDHT walls of text [120] (from top to bottom of that talk page, 79 edits and tens of thousands of bytes in 6 days: [121]) and leaving behind two very frustrated, be-numbed, bewildered, and resentful editors. If Winkelvi is unable to edit collaboratively, and needs outside intervention on such a regular basis, this is a real problem and needs a major solution.
I'd also like to state that, for the record, I don't know how long it has been going on, but Floq and Coffee have an obvious feud going on (I noticed this in re: the TRM AE discussions), and so Floq should not be implementing any change here in my opinion. And also for the record, Winkelvi knows very well which admins he can curry leniency from, from having interacted with them in the past, and several of those were indeed the admins he pinged in his first round of pings, so the discussions on his talkpage should not be seen as binding or representative, in my opinion. Softlavender (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was waiting for someone else to point this out organically before I commented on this, but Floquenbeam has no place in reviewing any of my administrative decisions ever as he has a clear lack of neutrality regarding me. If he makes any action here whatsoever, he's going to have to answer to the Arbitration Committee. (Of course I highly doubt he'll actually make any action on this at all; he has baited people to try to make them respond out of hand in the past, so I'm sure that's likely what's happening here [since he's very aware of our current standing]. I will not be falling for such a trap.) — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 11:32, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Softlavender is correct in every respect. One of the most frustrating things about Winkelvi is not just his serial edit-warring and cluelessness, but his ability to game the system, finding admins he can coax into giving him "just a second chance" or a third chance or a fourth chance. I don't know if this was a factor in the recent hostilities, but he also claimed to have a medical condition that somehow contributed to or "explained" his edit-warring and tendentious conduct. His lengthy block record only hints at the burden he is to the project, as he is constantly being dragged before this or that drama board. Search the drama boards and you can see for yourself. Here is one, an encounter with User:Tenebrae from 2014 that I just picked at random. Read that. No action. It just goes on and on and on, and he keeps on getting a pass until finally he gets blocked. Personally I am surprised that he has not been indeffed by now, but he always seems to find yet another sympathetic admin to give him yet another second chance, so that he can return to his old ways until he gets yet another second chance. Coretheapple (talk) 15:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was waiting for someone else to point this out organically before I commented on this, but Floquenbeam has no place in reviewing any of my administrative decisions ever as he has a clear lack of neutrality regarding me. If he makes any action here whatsoever, he's going to have to answer to the Arbitration Committee. (Of course I highly doubt he'll actually make any action on this at all; he has baited people to try to make them respond out of hand in the past, so I'm sure that's likely what's happening here [since he's very aware of our current standing]. I will not be falling for such a trap.) — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 11:32, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's my impression, also. The gaming of the system is very clearly demonstrated by this diff from a couple of weeks ago, which should be read in its entirety. WV always claims to be shocked and surprised when bought to account for their actions, but their words there demonstrate complete clarity about how "the system" works, and how to game it. The irony is breathtaking. Keri (t · c) 16:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Give them the choice, stay blocked 3 months or agree to 6-month-to-1-year 1RR as unblock condition — While 3 months reflexively seemed a bit much when I first stumbled across it (but then checked the block history and totally understood why), it's also a strong incentive to agree to an unblock condition of WP:1RR. To be perfectly clear, his revert history at Billy the Kid clearly and obviously violated WP:3RR, and is doubly damning considering he's reported other people on AN3 before (I actually patrolled one of the reports the other day). What's worse is the fact that he was unable to acknowledge his error directly after the block, disputing the technicalities of what constitutes a revert—and to be clear, he's wrong. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of 3RR, as well as the concept of WP:EW as a whole. This, first and foremost, needs to be rectified. I've always been a fan of imposing 1RR over blocking when possible, and on a completely tangential note, it might be a good idea to start an RFC to allow admins to unilaterally impose 1RR restrictions on an editor (without needing an WP:ACDS) in place of, and for durations proportionate to, normal blocks (subject to same appeals process as blocks). This would have been a prime case where an immediate 1RR restriction could have saved everyone a bunch of time and would have been pretty obviously supported. --slakr\ talk / 09:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: The thing about imposing 1RR instead of blocking, without community discussion, is that nobody knows that the 1RR exists except the people who happened to be watching the user's talk page at that time. So the user can freely violate 1RR and nobody knows and they do not get reported. That's why drawing the community's attention to the discussion and also allowing input and buy-in into sanctions other than blocks is very important. (And it's not the case that Winkelvi does not understand 3RR -- he has reported or been reported at ANEW at least 75 times -- see my and others' posts above.) Softlavender (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse (I was pinged above) If there is an unblock condition should be 0RR, if anything, because 1 RR has already been tried. Winklevi needs to get with the program, and the more rope that has been extended, the more they seem to not get with the program. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:02, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unblock with indefinite 1RR (with an exception for WV's own talk page) as proposed at user talk page. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:18, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse with the only chance of unblock early being 0RR for at least 6 months, but I think a year is best. I think it's pretty clear that Winkelvi has issues with reverting. Hopefully a 0RR would keep the positive contributions without allowing wiggle room. I read the Bess Myerson talk page posts and am impressed with the paitence shown by the other editors. I might have blown a gasket with that level of edit warring and wall of text posting. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support indefinite block-I stumbled across this discussion and decided to give my opinion. I've interacted with Winkelvi a few times, most notably at Billy the Kid in early 2016. This was the first GAN that I reviewed, and I committed a few embarrassing mistakes, for which I take responsibility. But what I saw from Winkelvi was a persistent battleground attitude that included not only edit-warring but persistent hostility, questioning of motives, WP:Ownership, and vindictive behavior towards anyone disagreeing with him. By examining the history of his block log and the talk page and AN/I discussions concerning him that have taken place since then, I have found no reason to believe that he will change anything. Perhaps the biggest mistake that I made at that article was not failing it immediately after the edit war, which was largely out of guilt for originally passing it prematurely. What ensued after that was also a sort of nightmare, aided somewhat by my lack of knowledge on GA reviews and occasional immaturity, but rooted largely in Winkelvi's near-constant battleground attitude which alienated most of those who worked on the article.
- On his talk page, pinging Drmies, Winkelvi said that he "gets it." He has a history of saying that sort of thing after a block, but then somehow we always end up at the same place as before. A 1RR has been put in place before. Now he is back to the same type of behavior, so it's time to take it up a notch. But even a 0RR would still result in Winkelvi being able to continue his accusatory, battleground, and non-AGF behavior on talk pages. He may even resort to doing that more often, knowing that if he reverts and is caught it would likely result in a longer or indefinite block. What I saw on the Beth Myerson talk page is disturbing, and we could see more of that sort of talk page drama if Winkelvi knows that he can't revert anymore. That's why 1RR and even a 0RR won't work well enough. It also doesn't help that I find Winkelvi's excuses about not knowing the technicalities of 3RR to be totally unconvincing, considering his experience, history of edit-warring, and history of reporting other users for edit-warring. I'm not buying it.
- Winkelvi has been given plenty of chances. He has thrown away all of them and in the process has caused the WP community an enormous amount of time and anguish. I don't think that there is enough non-destructive behavior from Winkelvi to outweigh this. That's enough to say that he is a net negative and that an indefinite block would be in order. Display name 99 (talk) 13:47, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Block, support indef block - As far as I recall, I have no involvement with this editor. Reading the above, I think there is plenty of evidence to not only support the three month block but to extend it to an indef. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 16:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment. I wasn't going to comment here, but in view of a couple of comments above, I will. User:Coretheapple, Winkelvi has had the aspergers userbox on his page for as long as I've known him, and your "he also claimed to have a medical condition that somehow contributed to or "explained" bla bla", is shameful, as if it was a new thing and most likely something he made up. "Medical condition", bah. You will answer me if you wish, naturally, but I have no more to say to you. @Softlavender:, when you say if there isn't an ANI discussion, "the user can freely violate 1RR and nobody knows and they do not get reported", you're assuming bad faith in a way that'll be like a knife to Winkelvi. He's on the autism spectrum, as he points out himself every now and then — it's no sort of secret — which colours his interactions with others. I understand that Wikipedia is not therapy, and I have certainly seen him behaving atrociously on talkpages. But he's actually big with rules, and I don't for a moment believe he'd violate a personal, specific sanction "freely" just because "nobody knows". Please compare the section "About me and editing" on his userpage, where he says among other things "Because those of us on the Spectrum are unfailingly "rule-followers", we are also honest to a fault. When we are accused of lying or intentionally being disruptive or not acting in good faith, it's quite hurtful." I've found that to be very true, both parts of it: Winkelvi follows rules, as long as they're very, very exact and spelled-out rules, and he's dreadfully distressed if he's accused of shady dealing. (Compare his reaction to Coffee in the first discussion, right under the block notice, and btw I think Ritchie333's comment on that discussion was excellent:
"... when I block somebody I generally punt any conversations about the block off to reviewing administrators... picking a fight with an editor you block is generally counter-productive."
How I wish Coffee had worn his listening ears for that.) Also, never mind the autism spectrum, which people obviously aren't obliged to know about, it's a nasty thing to imply about anybody, that they'd cheerfully violate a restriction they had agreed to. That's what WP:AGF is for: because we know so little about anybody on the internet that we're commenting on.
- While I'm here: I've advocated unblock + indefinite 1RR on Winkelvi's talkpage, but I won't record any sort of bolded !vote here, because I'm not sure about the unblock. That's because Winkelvi does behave badly sometimes even apart from of edit warring, and I can certainly sympathise with the people who have experienced a "nightmare" interacting with him. That's far from something I'd wave away. But I do want to say, please don't unblock on condition of 0RR. One of Winkelvi's latest comment on his page, here is rather convoluted, which of course doesn't serve him well, but the takeaway from it is that, while he's fine with 1RR, he hates the idea of 0RR so much that he'd rather ride out his 3-month block. So please, people, don't do that; either keep him blocked, or give him an indefinite 1RR restriction. (On balance, I believe the 1RR restriction would be more helpful going forward than the block, but I think both are acceptable.) Bishonentalk 16:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC).
- Oh please. You're acting as if he just has a userbox and that was that. How dare I mention that! What you didn't mention was that when he was doing his number in the Myerson article, and in other of his many disputes then and afterwards. he
was constantly "playing the Asperger's card," citing that alleged condition as an excuse for his actions. Yes, it is a claim, no it is not verifiable, yes, it is irrelevant, and yes, it is one of the many ways he gamed the system.was claiming that he Asperger's is the cause of his conduct. He has two entire sections on his user page devoted to describing how his Asperger's is the cause of his conduct, and he has brought it up in defense of his actions. In this exchange with Jehochman he said "I'm not clueless, I have Asperger Syndrome (as is broadcast at the top of this page). People with Aspergers are generally quite intelligent with high-IQs. So, no, not clueless, just asking for specifics (something Aspies need at times to understand what someone is referring to vaguely)." The "broadcast at top of this page" comment refers to the fact that he has a notice at the top of his talk page referring to his Aspberger's "If you've had any kind of issue or misunderstanding in your dealings with me," So no, it is absolutely not just a user box. "People on the autism spectrum need to be aware that pulling the 'Oh, but I'm a poor misunderstood Aspie/Autie' card out of the pack is a bad move! There are a lot of us in here, and we can tell when someone's using it as an excuse!" Coretheapple (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC) (additions and strikeouts, since I've heard objections to use of the term "playing the Asperger's card") Coretheapple (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)- Bishonen, thank you for your message, but I'd like to point out a view things that I object to in your comment. You say
"Winkelvi follows rules, as long as they're very, very exact and spelled-out rules."
Um, no. The 6 blocks for edit-warring (not counting the one with sockpuppetry) show that this isn't the case. Take a look at this quote from WP:3rr: - "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period."
- That seems pretty exact and spelled-out to me.
- That's also not to mention the constant disruption that Winkelvi has caused on talk pages and drama boards during his
3+[5] years contributing to Wikipedia. In a previous block, resulting from a long-term feud with another editor, an editor (possibly Floq, but I'm not entirely sure) called attention to the fact that Winkelvi seems to think that it is acceptable to, after being warned against feuding with one editor, to instead feud with another one, or (this may be from someone else) to "regularly change [his] mode of disruption." That's not Autism. That's called gaming the system by pretending to be clueless so that people will take pity on you and keep giving you chances. Display name 99 (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC) - PS, I should know. I have borderline Asperger's. Display name 99 (talk) 17:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ha! I do too, not so borderline. Other stuff too. BFD. Coretheapple (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Bishonen, thank you for your message, but I'd like to point out a view things that I object to in your comment. You say
- @Bishonen:"
Winkelvi follows rules, as long as they're very, very exact and spelled-out rules.
" - I have loads of respect for you (as you know, and I hope at least some of that is mutual), but WP:3RR seems like an awfully cut-and-dry, spelled-out, exact, clear, (whatever other synonym to refer to blatantly easy you deem necessary) rule. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:35, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh please. You're acting as if he just has a userbox and that was that. How dare I mention that! What you didn't mention was that when he was doing his number in the Myerson article, and in other of his many disputes then and afterwards. he
- Bishonen, I disagree with your conclusions, but I will contact you via email so as to avoid prolonging the drama here. Softlavender (talk) 01:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment There are two main concerns expressed by the editors above - edit warring and talk page bludgeoning. 1RR is the obvious solution to the first concern but I foresee two problems. First, according to the "rules", Winkelvi can revert once a day on an article ad infinitum. Second, this allows anon IPs to troll Winkelvi as they have done in the past. For the talk page issue, I would suggest he be limited to one post a day but that may lead to walloftext posts. What is really needed is a mentor that Winkelvi has to go to whenever he runs into a conflict. However that could potentially be quite a demanding job and I don't know if anyone would volunteer to take it on. --NeilN talk to me 17:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I believe mentoring has been attempted in the past. Coretheapple (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ahem. I think we can discuss this without getting into NPA territory when it comes to Winkelvi and his userbox. I also think we can disagree with with Coffee without making him out as some rogue Nazi admin--he is not. I also think we can disagree with Floquenbeam without thinking we'll end up at ArbCom. And I think we can disagree with, for instance, Bishonen's assessment without being rude. Winkelvi broke policy; the block was justified. Coffee blocked and others disagreed; that's fine, that's what we're here for. Discuss it without criticizing the blockee, the blocker, the hypothetical unblocker, the proponents of more blocking, etc. Keep it civil please. Drmies (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm only commenting here because I noticed WV posted to my talk page the other day seemingly accusing me of being responsible for his latest block (which I'm not). Anyway, I strongly strongly endorse this latest block because this is the sixth time he's been blocked for this same offense. Aside from what others have said, it's important to note his last block was for harassment of Calibrador (talk · contribs) -- the name used by photographer Gage Skidmore. (See here for more. WV's first edit following that block's expiration -- literally his very first main space edit -- was to remove a photo Skidmore had taken from an article [122] and he has continued to do so since [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131]. Ultimately, I think we should just indef block him and get it over with, instead of having this discussion again every five or six months. Calidum 19:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse block, raise to indef: I'm another user who has been harangued and pursued by Winkelvi, much as Coretheapple and other describe, when he inserted himself into a discussion for the sole purpose of personal attacks and to stir trouble, and participated in an edit war about which he knew nothing in an effort to prosecute some old (and in my case, imaginary) grudge, most recently at The Crown (TV series), but also in at least one other article. He's also done the same with Calibrador in recent days. He works the "I'm on the spectrum" card for all it's worth, but speaking as someone with Ph.D.-level expertise and 30 years in the field, his social and communication skills are far too developed for a person with Asperger's syndrome. People, as uncomfortable a thought as this might be, some people with disabilities do actually abuse their disability rights, and Winklevi does so. How long will our bleeding hearts protect him, at the expense of how many editors he hassles and harangues? How many chances will it take before the community realizes he is a lost cause, and should be indeffed? --Drmargi (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@Drmargi: Please clarify your comment
his social and communication skills are far too developed for a person with Asperger's syndrome
. Are you saying you don't think he actually has it? This would appear to contradict your statement that Winkelvi is abusing his "disability rights" as you put it, implying he does have Asperger's. If you think he doesn't, how can you claim to refute a diagnosis solely over the Internet? I know a person in RL with Asperger's who I am confident could conduct themselves to an excellent standard on Wikipedia, as indeed do many other autism spectrum editors here. BethNaught (talk) 20:30, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@Drmargi: Please clarify your comment
- Comment As someone who has also had the misfortune to be on the brunt of Winkelvi's unrelenting wrath, I vouch for Drmargi's statement above. Winkelvi embodies what Wikipedia should not be. Preventing other editors from ever having to interact with them would be a great accomplishment for this project. Calibrador (talk) 20:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I saw what you experienced recently, which was worse even than what I have, and was appalled. I was glad to see a block was applied in your case. I mine, Winklevi's behavior barely caused a blip. --Drmargi (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- I assume this is related to the Carrie Fisher 3rr image issue? Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:01, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I saw what you experienced recently, which was worse even than what I have, and was appalled. I was glad to see a block was applied in your case. I mine, Winklevi's behavior barely caused a blip. --Drmargi (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse block, support unblock with indefinite 1RR restriction. - Coffee's block was proportionate and reasonable. I believe that Winkelvi has the best intentions, and that his contributions are a net positive. That said, his doggedness is his Achilles heel. Since he is rule-bound, following a one revert restriction should be no problem. Personally I follow 1RR except in the most extreme situations, which I find avoids a great many conflicts. Winkelvi could benefit from the realization that any truly bad edit will probably be addressed by another editor, so he should not feel it imperative to correct it himself. My advice to Winknelvi to go out of his way to be accommodating to regular editors who push back. As to NeilN's suggestion, I thing a mentor would be beneficiaL. Perhaps someone like the esteemed Drmies would be equal to the task. I also see Bishonen as an inexhaustible font of wisdom and practical advice.- MrX 21:30, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
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You told me on your talk page that Winkelvi "can't do all that much about his self-disclosed condition"[133], by which you mean his Asperger's. If so the situation is hopeless because Winkelvi blames his behavior on his Asperger's. For instance, in this exchange with User:Jehochman, he said "Jehochman, I'm not clueless, I have Asperger Syndrome." On his user page he has two entire sections on the subject. One says "If you've had any kind of issue or misunderstanding in your dealings with me, there is an excellent article/essay on Wikipedia editors with Asperger Syndrome found here that might help." Immediately below that, in a section entitled "About Me and Editing," he goes on and on about his Asperger's and how it influences his editing. He has another Asperger's notice at the top of his user talk page. If we take him at his word that his behavior is caused by Aspergers, and if we accept your belief that he can't do much about it, then mentoring will not work and he needs to be indeffed for the good of the community. It isn't fair to expect that the community bear the brunt of this person's behavior, whatever its cause, if self-control is not in the cards. "Some people, whether on the autism spectrum or not, just don't belong in Wikipedia. Vandals, trolls, and abusive and disruptive editors can be blocked or banned, and being on the autism spectrum is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour." I realize that you have a lot of empathy for Winkelvi, but you need to have empathy for the people who have to deal with him. The reason there are a "zillion people who want him indeffed" as you put it is not that we are evil, but because of his behavior. You have never had to put up with bad behavior from him, because he shows a different face to adminstrators. As numerous editors have pointed out, he's extra-nice to you guys (unless you block him). The rest of us don't have that advantage. Coretheapple (talk) 05:00, 19 March 2017 (UTC) |
entirely arbitrary break
- Just to be clear, the problem with my long ago interaction with Winklevi, was yes edit warring, but also his unbelievably and intentionally ignorant arguments (eg, admitting he did not read sources) and offensive long drawn-out fights (over basically nothing, at all) and gross accusations (over less) - Winklevi needs be told straight out that he harms Wikipedia. He just has to shut down this manner of interaction, which begins with reversions, 0RR actually takes care of all that, if he can buy into it - read Anna's comment on his talk page, about going to write something worthwhile -- that is what he needs to do, (don't go near others work) if he has any hope, beyond the block. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:18, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block. I was involved in the Myerson issues referred to above. The continued prevalence of identical issues is discouraging. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 01:45, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse block Back in 2015, I had a rather acrimonious encounter with Winkelvi when he reported another editor for edit warring. I will admit that WV's prediction that the other editor would continue to edit war did prove true so I'll give him that much. That other editor ultimately got himself indefinitely blocked for edit warring and socking, but that's by the by. I've generally avoided WV after that encounter. However, the argument does show that WV knows full well what it is to edit war and that any sort of prevarication is basically bullshit. Anything less than a 0RR restriction upon expiry of the block would be too lenient. Blackmane (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment. I won't weigh in with any particular recommendation, because to me it just seems like a quibble about degree. But I would add that, just recently, I too had a rather difficult encounter with Winklevi. I found him to be unreasonable, illogical, stubborn and unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion. When he made up his mind, he was like a bulldog with a bone and that was it. So the question is, if that's someone's personality, is there really any administrative action that could reasonably be expected to change it? As we've already been down this road many times before - isn't the past, predictive? X4n6 (talk) 21:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's a perfect way to describe the situation. The Myerson incident above might be the egregious example, but it's far from the only case of WV taking it upon himself to be prosecuting attorney, judge, jury and executioner. See this discussion in 2014 about Breaking Bad. And who could forget this one regarding Chelsea Clinton or this 2015 one regarding Taylor Swift. (Whether female musicians are singer-songwriters or merely singers and songwriters is apparently a cause celebre for him: See here for another example.) For a more recent example, see multiple threads at Talk:Ilias Psinakis or Talk:Madonna_(entertainer)/Archive_19. Calidum 22:55, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Calidum: Yes, come to think of it I received a note from User:Robert McClenon over that odd issue. [134]. Evidently there was an RfC on that nonsense in a project some time before, and I was summoned by bot to participate. Coretheapple (talk) 01:32, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's a perfect way to describe the situation. The Myerson incident above might be the egregious example, but it's far from the only case of WV taking it upon himself to be prosecuting attorney, judge, jury and executioner. See this discussion in 2014 about Breaking Bad. And who could forget this one regarding Chelsea Clinton or this 2015 one regarding Taylor Swift. (Whether female musicians are singer-songwriters or merely singers and songwriters is apparently a cause celebre for him: See here for another example.) For a more recent example, see multiple threads at Talk:Ilias Psinakis or Talk:Madonna_(entertainer)/Archive_19. Calidum 22:55, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Multi-war veteran. Happened to see this and noticed some comments from editors who haven't been directly involved with him, yet are weighing in. While I've been subjected to a series of edit wars with him in Dec. and Jan., I don't want to offer any opinions unless invited, since this seems to be an admin board. Another veteran, who became a casualty, is User:Pauciloquence, FWIW. --Light show (talk) 21:50, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
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- Indefinite block. As someone who also had a nightmarish encounter with Winkelvi, I knew it was just a matter of time before his behavior came into light. He is quick to accuse other people, but when someone challenges him on his own behavior, he gets extremely defensive and cries "personal attack". With Winkelvi, he can do no wrong and its always someone else's fault. His problem is much bigger than edit warring. He was recently given a two month block([136]) a few months back and the first thing he did when it expired was lash out at two admins.[137][138] Does this look like someone who learned his lesson and can change his behavior? Despite a lengthy two month block, he was still defiant and told the admin he was wrong and learned nothing. I don't know how he got away with that and I am not sure if the admin ever read his comment. This is a user who can not admit that he is ever wrong and will never change. He also knows the rules clearly and is always reporting other users for edit warring, so no one should buy his excuse about being confused about the rules. Due his battleground behavior and earlier feud with me(long story), he even reported me at WP:ANEW here over a time stamp which was quickly dismissed as probably the most ridiculous and pettiest report ever on Wikipedia. This is the kind of editor that does more harm than good to the project and what Wikipedia doesn't need. He has been given plenty of chances. Enough is enough. TL565 (talk) 07:40, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I've not had any dealings with Winkelvi (that I recall), so I can't really comment on their conduct, or who they might have rubbed up the wrong way. However, I'm more concerned that the starting point of this block was a malformed report at the edit-war notice board by an IP who appeared out of nowhere to only disappear again. Apologies if that's already been brought up in this thread, but there's a lot of text here already, and I find that to be a major part of this which appears to be overlooked. Lugnuts Precious bodily fluids 08:02, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't see anything wrong with it. It was just an IP who noticed the hypocrisy of Winkelvi's report on another user for violating the 3RR when he had just as many reverts. It's a good thing the IP brought attention to it because he would've gotten away with it too. TL565 (talk) 08:25, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm off to watch repeats of Scooby Doo. LugnutsPrecious bodily fluids 08:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, in most cases I have seen (perhaps not this one -- I haven't checked) the real hypocrisy is claiming that the only thing that matters on ANEW is the number of reverts, as I mentioned (somewhat vaguely) in my earlier comment. Again, I haven't looked into this most recent edit war, but for the sake of argument imagine that Winkelvi had been desperately pinging the other user on the talk page and presenting reasonable arguments for his version, and the other user was either ignoring said comments completely and not posting on the talk page at all or posting variations on "You're wrong" or "I don't care" (or even "You are a stupid poopy-head" -- I've seen it happen). In this scenario, Winkelvi would still be wrong to revert multiple times (he should have just come to ANEW first), but he would clearly be the less guilty of "edit-warring". If Winkelvi, after edit-warring back, then decides to go to ANEW, that still is not hypocrisy on his part -- it's him doing what he should have done to begin with. Again I should specify that this is only in response to TL565's comment above; I am not saying definitely that anything like this scenario happened here. It's just that since it has happened before. I once narrowly escaped a block for having taken bait like this (since there was tag-teaming/meatpuppetry involved, the other party hadn't even technically breached 3RR yet), so it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:01, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- In this case both users did post to the talk page here, though WV's only justification appears to be "I think they are not improvements" and you need to observe BRD with no other explanation. Of course, when he filed the report at AN3, WV claimed the other editor involved had not attempted to discuss the matter [139] despite the ongoing discussion. Calidum 12:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just to be clear: by "malformed" all it means is that the IP didn't follow the correct format for reporting a 3RR violation [140]. If you examine the edit history of the Billy the Kid article[141] you can see that it was clearly a 3RR violation. But what's striking is what he was edit warring over. Here is the diff of the edit in question. These are piddling, inconsequential, trivial wording changes, such as changing active voice into passive. (E.g., changing "reviewed the photo" into "the photo was reviewed"). This is identical to his behavior in Bess Myerson 26 months ago, down to the last detail in the sense that he pushed the revert button repeatedly over trivial, inconsequential semantic issues in the article. Coretheapple (talk) 13:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Sorry, I didn't even notice the word "malformed". I took Lugnuts' comment to be more about the (malformed or no) report being filed
by an IP who appeared out of nowhere to only disappear again
, as Andy Dingley said at the top of this thread. I'm usually inclined to cut people slack when it comes to failure to conform to templates like that because, honestly, a lot of the instructions on Wikipedia noticeboards and the like are really difficult to follow, especially when it looks like ANEW works essentially the same as AN and its other subpages like this one. Frankly, it's increasingly hard to assume good faith on the part of the users who write some of those instructions, as from time to time when questioned they seem to indicate that the goal is to make it difficult to use such-and-such process and so decrease the rate and which said process is used (I'm not talking specifically about ANEW here). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- The debate here is mostly in reference to this ANEW entry: WP:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive338#Winkelvi (Result: Blocked). A new IP address appears, alleges, "Winkelvi made four reverts in 11 hours on the same page" but doesn't even say which page this was, so that's unverifiable, and Coffee blocked them for 3 months within an hour and without any sort of discussion or clarification as to what had happened.
- This is a bad block. Not because Winkelvi wasn't edit-warring, but because on-demand long blocks by passing socks have traditionally required IRC or requests at Wikipediocracy, not just an unformed handwave at ANEW. That is a much worse thing than anything Winkelvi was doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think that an IP not abiding by proper format makes it a "bad block." There's no question that was a terrible 3RR report, in the sense of not even mentioning that it was in Billy the Kid. But to figure out what he meant, all one had to do was look in Winkelvi's recent edit history, and there it was. This was not an accusation of sockpuppetry, just something very obvious. Keep in mind too that people are blocked for edit warring all the time, without any ANEW report being filed. Coretheapple (talk) 13:42, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Sorry, I didn't even notice the word "malformed". I took Lugnuts' comment to be more about the (malformed or no) report being filed
- Just to be clear: by "malformed" all it means is that the IP didn't follow the correct format for reporting a 3RR violation [140]. If you examine the edit history of the Billy the Kid article[141] you can see that it was clearly a 3RR violation. But what's striking is what he was edit warring over. Here is the diff of the edit in question. These are piddling, inconsequential, trivial wording changes, such as changing active voice into passive. (E.g., changing "reviewed the photo" into "the photo was reviewed"). This is identical to his behavior in Bess Myerson 26 months ago, down to the last detail in the sense that he pushed the revert button repeatedly over trivial, inconsequential semantic issues in the article. Coretheapple (talk) 13:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- In this case both users did post to the talk page here, though WV's only justification appears to be "I think they are not improvements" and you need to observe BRD with no other explanation. Of course, when he filed the report at AN3, WV claimed the other editor involved had not attempted to discuss the matter [139] despite the ongoing discussion. Calidum 12:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, in most cases I have seen (perhaps not this one -- I haven't checked) the real hypocrisy is claiming that the only thing that matters on ANEW is the number of reverts, as I mentioned (somewhat vaguely) in my earlier comment. Again, I haven't looked into this most recent edit war, but for the sake of argument imagine that Winkelvi had been desperately pinging the other user on the talk page and presenting reasonable arguments for his version, and the other user was either ignoring said comments completely and not posting on the talk page at all or posting variations on "You're wrong" or "I don't care" (or even "You are a stupid poopy-head" -- I've seen it happen). In this scenario, Winkelvi would still be wrong to revert multiple times (he should have just come to ANEW first), but he would clearly be the less guilty of "edit-warring". If Winkelvi, after edit-warring back, then decides to go to ANEW, that still is not hypocrisy on his part -- it's him doing what he should have done to begin with. Again I should specify that this is only in response to TL565's comment above; I am not saying definitely that anything like this scenario happened here. It's just that since it has happened before. I once narrowly escaped a block for having taken bait like this (since there was tag-teaming/meatpuppetry involved, the other party hadn't even technically breached 3RR yet), so it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:01, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm off to watch repeats of Scooby Doo. LugnutsPrecious bodily fluids 08:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't see anything wrong with it. It was just an IP who noticed the hypocrisy of Winkelvi's report on another user for violating the 3RR when he had just as many reverts. It's a good thing the IP brought attention to it because he would've gotten away with it too. TL565 (talk) 08:25, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
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- Does Scooby Doo have ad breaks? I'm selling a bridge. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Zoinks! Lugnuts Precious bodily fluids 15:03, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- The IP didn't even make a separate report. It was supposed to be in the same report at Wikinelvi's [142] Some one else later separated them and it got archived seperatly. TL565 (talk) 13:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- You're right - that does make quite a difference then. An interesting theory has been hypothesised for this, but that is Wikipediocracy's mud, and they can fling it themselves. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- It's a helpful clarification, but I really don't believe it is all that consequential. Coretheapple (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse block as well within admin discretion.
Coffee ought to be admonished for bringing this here: a pretty clear consensus had already developed below Winkelvi's unblock request and this thread is a very transparent attempt to forumshop the result he was the only one not agreeing with.That said, we're here now and other issues have come to light. Having read both threads I support unblock with indefinite 1RR restriction with the standard WP:3RRNO exemptions. This will not affect WV's anti-vandalism activities as blatant vandalism can be reverted anyway, it will only prevent WV from getting into the revert wars they have such a tumultuous history with. So I hope, anyway. Any second revert on any page anywhere would result in an immediate and indefinite block. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, after the block, Winkelvi continued his habit of pinging friendly admins to try to bail him out. Knowing from experience which admins he can gain favor from, it's a pretty clear case of "admin shopping" and thus shouldn't be seen as representing any kind of general consensus. Most of the editors on the talk page agreeing to a 1RR were canvassed.
- Appealing to the community was in truth the best decision, because it is we who have to deal with Winkelvi's behavior. We shouldn't be forced to let a group of hand-picked administrators decide what to do with Winkelvi. In a place like this, anybody, no matter what their previous interactions (if any) with Winkelvi, can see and comment on the proposals. Display name 99 (talk) 15:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the end but not the means. Anyway, arguing about it beyond this point is not going to aid the discussion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:50, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, Coffee should be thanked for both the block and raising it here -
you, perhaps, should be "admonished", for your raise the heat, "admonishment"- raising it publicly is policy and actually much better process for multiple reasons (someone above actually says your 1rr will work better now, because we are all suppose to be imposed upon to watch him). Did you read Anna's last comment on the talk page? You want to leave temptation? So, an indef can occur. Better to remove temptation (or mistake), entirely. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)- I said let's not pursue this, and instead you pursue it by threatening me? That doesn't jibe well with your missive about not raising the heat. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:04, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's absurd. There is no threat. Unless, you are claiming your original comment was a threat. My comment was even milder than yours. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apologies, I interpreted your "indef can occur" comment as directed at me. I see now what you were referring to below. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you. Sincerely, thank you, for that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apologies, I interpreted your "indef can occur" comment as directed at me. I see now what you were referring to below. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Hey y'all, let's not get upset on my account. Ivanvector, there's simply no logical way you can call a deliberate selection of favored admins: consensus. If this was the case every single editor here, when blocked, would never use the {{unblock}} system anymore... we could all just ping who we wanted to be on the panel of our fate. This is why the policy states:
Except in cases of unambiguous error or significant change in circumstances dealing with the reason for blocking, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter. If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard is recommended.
Furthermore, it looks like you may be accidentally misreading what Alan wrote. I (and Alan can correct me if I'm wrong) believe he was merely referring to what impression your comments might make upon WV and what affect that might have on him (e.g. a future indefinite block due to unhindered disruptive behavior). At any rate, I'd rather we not blow this up too far out of proportion; I've already fully explained my reasoning for coming here. If certain editors decide they don't want to believe me, so be it. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)- @Coffee: in the end, however this came about it's coming around to probably be a proper outcome. However, it does honestly look to a neutral observer (or to me, maybe I'm not as neutral as I think I am) like you only posted here to get around the emerging consensus to overturn your block. But you're right that admins were canvassed, and you've already explained the situation, and you posted in the right forum, but the other discussion is still going, and there's all the different talk page posts, but ... I don't know, it's all a mess. Let's all agree that this got to where it needed to be and leave it at that. To that end I've struck my comment above, I don't honestly see the point in admonishments anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: I want to assure you that I did not come here to avoid a consensus, I came here to avoid a cherry-picked consensus. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I know. I get it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:40, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: I want to assure you that I did not come here to avoid a consensus, I came here to avoid a cherry-picked consensus. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Coffee: in the end, however this came about it's coming around to probably be a proper outcome. However, it does honestly look to a neutral observer (or to me, maybe I'm not as neutral as I think I am) like you only posted here to get around the emerging consensus to overturn your block. But you're right that admins were canvassed, and you've already explained the situation, and you posted in the right forum, but the other discussion is still going, and there's all the different talk page posts, but ... I don't know, it's all a mess. Let's all agree that this got to where it needed to be and leave it at that. To that end I've struck my comment above, I don't honestly see the point in admonishments anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's absurd. There is no threat. Unless, you are claiming your original comment was a threat. My comment was even milder than yours. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I said let's not pursue this, and instead you pursue it by threatening me? That doesn't jibe well with your missive about not raising the heat. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:04, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, Coffee should be thanked for both the block and raising it here -
- I agree with the end but not the means. Anyway, arguing about it beyond this point is not going to aid the discussion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:50, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
not so arbitrary break
Reading through the above a few times, I think there are two main courses of action editors are recommending:
- An indefinite block
- An unblock with an indefinite 0RR or 1RR editing restriction.
It'd be helpful when judging consensus if editors stating a preference above could indicate if they could live with the other option. --NeilN talk to me 17:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Remove temptation, from someone, who behaves as if they cannot handle it, and then gets into obnoxious BATTLE over their reversion: Block and 0 RR, sure if they take the 0 RR, I am neutral on ending block early. (1RR has already been tried). Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block It'd be a matter of days before the 0RR/1RR restriction is broken - not because the editor would deliberately do it, but because their
temperenthusiasm would get the better of them. Exemplo347 (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- As indicated above, I'd definitely prefer indefinite.
However, I could live with letting the block expire after the full 90 days and then going with an indefinite 0RR after that.However, there's no way I could do 1RR. It's been attempted already and didn't come close to solving all of the problems. Display name 99 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I favor an indefinite block, and I think an immediate unblock with a 1RR or even 0RR restriction would be a mistake and would be unfair to the editors in subject areas in which Winkelvi is a prolific contributor. It's kicking the can down the road. It's not just reversions and edit warring, it's a general cluelessness, a refusal to "get the point." Even without reverting, an editor can wreak havoc on talk pages, driving away editors by filibustering and wall-o-text rants, very much as Winkelvi did at Myerson and as he began to do at Billy the Kid. And over what? Nothing. Passive versus active voice. Little turns of phrase. Whether someone should be called a "singer-songwriter" or a "singer and songwriter." In fact, even if a 0RR restriction had been in force in January 2015, the nightmare that he inflected on other editors on the Myerson talk page would have been just as awful. He's been shown plenty of compassion and given multiple chances. Time to show compassion for the rest of us, Coretheapple (talk) 17:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- The problem with an 'indef block' is that a)its not a ban and so not subject to community input to lift, and b)any admin can unblock in the future based on whatever Wink can convince them of - as they have an extensive history of saying 'I'll change' this is clearly a suboptimal solution. So regardless of their block length/when they are unblocked, he needs a 0RR restriction which can only be lifted by community consensus. He is well aware of 1rr, 3rr etc and since he has repeatedly (there is ample evidence above) shown no interest in not edit warring despite knowing full well what it is and all the details around what constitutes a revert, only 0RR has a hope of working. I say working, but I mean 'cause less disruption to other editors'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good points. What about a site ban? It's the same thing. OR an indefinite block that can only be lifted by community consensus, if there is such a thing. Please see my comments above re talk page abuse. Coretheapple (talk) 18:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:CBAN --NeilN talk to me 18:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: Actually, a community imposed indefinite block cannot be unilaterally lifted by any single admin without community consensus to do so. Blackmane (talk) 02:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- You may want to review WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN. As written the policy states any non-arbcom indefinite *block* can be appealed in the usual manner via an unblock request. Only community *bans* are required to go back to the community/arbcom. Granted any admin who did unblock after the community voted for an indef block would likely end up here, but the editor could not be reblocked without accusations of wheel-warring. Its the weakness of blocks vs bans for persistant offenders. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block. Let's just recap the situation. He was blocked in June 2014 for edit warring. January 2015 for edit warring over multiple pages. Twice in March 2015 for edit warring and disruptive editing. July 2015 for edit warring (overturned on a technicality). November 2015 for edit warring (ditto). January 2016 for edit warring. May 2016 for feuding with multiple editors. September 2016 for harassment. March 2017 for edit warring. That's ten blocks in the period of 1,000 days -- one every three months. It's clear this behavior has not stopped and I don't see any positives to outweigh the many negatives other editors have described above. (Note that he could still ask the community to have the block lifted in the future -- indefinite isn't infinite -- and it might be good if he were the one saying what he would do differently to avoid confrontations instead of us offering him lifelines in the form of revert restrictions.) Calidum 18:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just out of curiosity, I wanted to see how much further the rabbit hole goes. There were at least 16 other reports at WP:AN3 concerned Winkelvi where either the page was protected, he warned or no action was taken without explanation. Here they are:July 2013, January 2014, February 2014, September 2014, October 2014,October 2014, January 2015,January 2015,January 2015,February 2015,March 2015,May 2015,May 2015,November 2015,June 2016 and September 2016. (He's also filed a number of reports himself, but I didn't take time to sort through many of them). Calidum 01:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment - neutral with regard to indefinite block, it's not my preferred option but Winkelvi has clearly exhausted the patience of many editors. I oppose 0RR in any case as I've only ever seen it lead to gaming the definition of a revert followed by more dramah (I mean generally, not just in this case). I also think a site ban is unduly harsh for this and do not support it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- If that is true, isn't 1RR, even more so? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- ... what? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- You talked of gaming, 1RR would seem more gamable than 0. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Not in my experience, no. With 1RR there's some leeway, while with 0RR you basically guarantee that the next dispute will be over whether or not a particular edit was a revert or not, with little care about the actual substance of the edit. It's counterproductive. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:05, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You talked of gaming, 1RR would seem more gamable than 0. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- ... what? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- If that is true, isn't 1RR, even more so? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block. It's clear that there is a significant body of administrators who can be manipulated by Winklevi, leaving me with no confidence that the 0RR/1RR restriction and subsequent mandatory indef would be enforced. Worse, were Coffee to do so, he'd be subject to a quick hauling over the coals by at least some of his administrative peers. Moreover, it's clear that the experiences of those of us who have been on the receiving end of Winklevi's behavior are of little consequence to the group Winklevi has wrapped around his little finger, and we will continue to be pursued, harangued and hassled by him. Given that, the one and only acceptable choice is to indefinitely block him. --Drmargi (talk) 18:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment - A site ban may be overly harsh in this situation. Why not finish his current block then 0RR indefinitely? That would be a step-up from the last attempt to reason with him, while avoiding a site ban. This solution, however, would be his last chance to reform, at least in my opinion.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- TheGracefulSlick, the biggest issue with that is Winkelvi's equally consistent hostile and combative behavior on talk pages. Talk:Bess Myerson and Talk:Billy the Kid are the two best examples. Display name 99 (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Display name 99 good point. I was trying to suggest an in-between from the two most said proposals. If an indef block is decided by consensus, I would not object because I have no personally experience dealing with this editor.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- TheGracefulSlick, the biggest issue with that is Winkelvi's equally consistent hostile and combative behavior on talk pages. Talk:Bess Myerson and Talk:Billy the Kid are the two best examples. Display name 99 (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block is my preferred solution, which I support with great regret in this and other cases. I have spent a lot of time reading all of the background information in the past several days and that has been a depressing process that has failed to convince me that a more lenient outcome would be better for the encyclopedia. In the sake of disclosure, I had a brief and unpleasant interaction with this editor a couple of years ago, and have steered clear since. Of course, I could live with another solution because I accept consensus. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've started to post in this thread a couple of times now, and deleted what I wrote because it made me want to bash my head into a wall, and then come back to it to find it even worse. I see I waited too long and we're now in the "Requests for Banning" phase. This whole thing, from top to bottom, is basically How Not To ANI: The Thread. The tendency of ANI to escalate drama and work up a crowd is well attested. I think it's often underappreciated how frustrating and distressing editors can find these long threads in which people show up to pick apart the subject's perceived personal faults as exhibited over the last several years. (Likewise with frequent comments from the blocking admin on the blocked editor's talk page. Best to let others step in.) The original plan worked out by a group of admins familiar with the situation - unblock after some time to think + 1RR - is a sensible one. Most of the comments here overlook the fact that 1RR did work pretty well in the past, but the restriction expired. So renew it. (There's also a lot of pixels spilled on the length of the block log, but "gets blocked once every six months for 3RR" is really not the kind of thing that breaks the wiki. He's hardly the only established editor who occasionally goes over that line.) Since he says he'd prefer to wait out the block than work under a 0RR restriction, I suppose those are my second and third choices. The proposals for an indefinite block or siteban are unwarranted. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by working up a crowd, as virtually all the editors posting here have had experiences with this editor, aren't just kibbitzers dropping in for blood sport. Also the focus on edit-warring has overlooked the talk page issues noted by some editors here. 0RR would not address them. Coretheapple (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think 0RR is worth a try. Indef, just means until someone unblocks - it is often quite short. The reason 0RR would work, is it takes away the incentive to enter these BATTLES, at all.Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- True, there is that possibility. But if you have 0RR, there would be no impact on talk-page concerns such as you I believe noted. That's why a site ban makes sense. Reading CBAN, it seems specifically tailored for this kind of situation. Coretheapple (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Again, I think the talk page BATTLE stems form the reversion warring, and trying to "protect" his re - version using his battle tactics. Remove reversion temptation at all means remove the reason for BATTLE - means he goes and does something else, like create articles on on his own or with someone, as Anna suggested on the talk page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- But all 0RR means is that the battle shifts to the talk page. He has his preferred wording. He puts it up there. It is reverted. Now instead of revert-warring he takes it to the talk page and calamity ensues. I believe this happened when Myerson was protected, as I believe it was. Yes, hopefully he would stop that behavior. But he won't.. I trust you know how hard it is to deal with such situations. It's not like 3RR, which is cut and dried. We just had a situation like that in another article, involving a small group of editors who went against consensus.
- Again, I think the talk page BATTLE stems form the reversion warring, and trying to "protect" his re - version using his battle tactics. Remove reversion temptation at all means remove the reason for BATTLE - means he goes and does something else, like create articles on on his own or with someone, as Anna suggested on the talk page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- True, there is that possibility. But if you have 0RR, there would be no impact on talk-page concerns such as you I believe noted. That's why a site ban makes sense. Reading CBAN, it seems specifically tailored for this kind of situation. Coretheapple (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think 0RR is worth a try. Indef, just means until someone unblocks - it is often quite short. The reason 0RR would work, is it takes away the incentive to enter these BATTLES, at all.Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by working up a crowd, as virtually all the editors posting here have had experiences with this editor, aren't just kibbitzers dropping in for blood sport. Also the focus on edit-warring has overlooked the talk page issues noted by some editors here. 0RR would not address them. Coretheapple (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- So there is a talk page nightmare. You come here. You know how hard it is to convey to third parties that a tendentious editor is being tendentious. Meanwhile, the protection corps materializes. He gets another chance. More promises. More time down the toilet. It's like the man said --- like beating your head against the wall. Sorry to be so gloomy and dismal, but that's just how it is. Coretheapple (talk) 21:02, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- He no longer has the ability to force his view in article space, he must get consensus on the talk page - he is most unlikely to get consensus if he takes his BATTLE stance, and being ineffective is probably his best teacher, here. It's plain there will not be a ban, at this time - and as someone else said the step-up is 0rr, and I think it takes away almost all his incentive to Battle. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- So there is a talk page nightmare. You come here. You know how hard it is to convey to third parties that a tendentious editor is being tendentious. Meanwhile, the protection corps materializes. He gets another chance. More promises. More time down the toilet. It's like the man said --- like beating your head against the wall. Sorry to be so gloomy and dismal, but that's just how it is. Coretheapple (talk) 21:02, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do remember, it began with a his desire for reversion of the stupidly alleged plagiarism, and it was around the same time that he admitted he did not read the sources, all which goes against his desired version, and makes it all ineffective. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- And an accumulation of that kind of thing is why there is an interest in indefinitely blocking. I agree, though, that the elephant in the room is that whatever is done here might be reversed by admins who are sympathetic to WV and not to the people he encounters. I would suggest that an indef, after a discussion like this, would not be casually overturned. Coretheapple (talk) 21:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Look, the world won't end whatever the outcome here. The test, I think, is what causes least additional stress and time wasted for the community, defined as "editors who might encounter him." What will result in the least drama in the long run? So let's say he's indeffed. Then the burden is on him to come back after a period of time and make commitments, and subsequent to such a return there would be less incentive to be troubling. As a person who myself has struggled with ... well..... [143] I believe that this makes the most sense. Coretheapple (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- But, no. If there is an indefinite block, with no required consensus instruction on how to lift it, it is just left to the lifting admin to do what they think best. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well there's our answer - an instruction. Coretheapple (talk) 22:15, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- And the choices, at present, are 1RR or 0RR. Alanscottwalker (talk)
- No, I think it's premature to judge the outcome of this discussion. The last one in which I participated in ANI concerning this editor went on for many days. Softlavender suggests a talk page restriction, for instance. Coretheapple (talk) 13:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well there's our answer - an instruction. Coretheapple (talk) 22:15, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- But, no. If there is an indefinite block, with no required consensus instruction on how to lift it, it is just left to the lifting admin to do what they think best. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Come now, Opibina, your "bashed head" is drama to the max. This so-called "group of administrators" includes, at least 1, where the last comment on the talk page was essentially, 'maybe you should stay blocked then, you need to find something else to do, because you can't handle it' That's working it out, too, but just not in your way, no point in your bashing your head, silliness. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Re: "The original plan worked out by a group of admins familiar with the situation - unblock after some time to think + 1RR - is a sensible one." That plan was "worked out" by three friendly admins WV pinged, an admin known for his extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks (Ritchie, who unblocked WV's one-week block after 2.5 days in February 2016 with a three-month 1RR restriction), and an admin with a longterm feud with the blocker. It was not worked out or agreed to by anyone who has had to deal with WV's disruption (and those that have not had to deal with WV's disruption would include you: [144]). In terms of ANI, you are on record as stating "Nothing good happens at ANI", but in your four years active on Wikipedia you have made only 75 edits here, even though you have been an admin for most of that time: [145]. -- Softlavender (talk) 05:35, 21 March 2017 (UTC); edited 23:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, yeah, why would I hang out in a place I don't like? "The food here is terrible - and such small portions!" ;)
- And yeah, if I've ever crossed paths with Winkelvi, it was forgettable. Not part of the "protection corps" supposedly hanging around. That's how this is supposed to work - independent review by uninvolved people with fresh eyes. Some of the stuff here - joining in to reanimate a minor two-year-old content dispute - well, that's a little bit like the "not letting go" behavior Winkelvi's accused of, I'd say. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Like DHeyward, you're missing the point. The reason there is so much agreement on this thread is because hundreds of good-faith editors have been at the receiving end of Winkelvi's obstinate, relentless, heedless, and highly disruptive behavior over the past several years, often multiple times in different venues. The Bess Myerson article is just one example out of several hundred. If there were an ArbCom case, people would present dozens more (I myself have several examples). If you have not been on the receiving end of Winkevli's harassment (and very few admins have; WV knows better), then you do not have the same experience others here do. And ANI is not "supposed to work [by] independent review by uninvolved people with fresh eyes". It is for knowledgeable and experienced editors to give their best recommendations. Lastly, if you think the Bess Myerson article example is a "minor" content dispute, then you have not examined it thoroughly. Either that, or you do not understand extreme edit-warring and WP:BLUDGEONING. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- No I am not missing the point nor is Opabinia regalis. I've been around the block to know the difference between a collective feeling of low-level annoyance and long term abusive editors. The lack of diffs, lack of ANI reports, lack of AE reports and virtually no diffs except for multi-year one-off encounters. If he has such a record, take him to ArbCom. This ANI has all the markings of a pile-on with each editor that ever had an unpleasant experience leaves their "death by a thousand cuts" diffless anecdote. I have now read Bess Myerson talk page and he had valid criticism and input. So much so, that only a technical violation of 3RR would warrant a block. There was no abuse or disruption and he called for sourcing where there wasn't any. Nothing wrong with that at all. Another example is how many of winkelvi's detractors lament his pinging admins to his talk page. None of the pinged admins cared. No one thought it necessary to remove talk page access. Yet, there are busy-bodies here that are upset by this behavior. Why is that? It doesn't concern them. It doesn't bother the admins - that makes it defacto not disruptive. But that's another hallmark of piling on. He's not pinging or berating those that are making rather broad accusations against him without diffs. These "one time at band camp..." anecdote need a lot more evidence, not just torches and pitchforks. The place for that is ArbCom because what's hear at ANI is too shallow to warrant additional sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 04:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of course the pinged admins didn't care -- he chose admins who were predisposed towards him. There are plenty of diffs and links provided in this thread -- not all of them sufficiently relevant, but enough of them are. And you didn't look at all of the 120 edits WV made to Bess Myerson in 2.5 days including endless edit-warring over some of his unnecessary changes. There is some degree of piling on in this thread, but that's because WV has relentlessly targeted hundreds of good-faith editors over the years. Beyond the piling on, however, you'll find very experienced and circumspect editors and admins such as Cullen328, The Wordsmith, Neutrality, Black Kite, QEDK, Ealdgyth, Calidum, and Blackmane endorsing a three-month block (or longer) and/or a 0RR restriction. So it's hardly an overall pile-on, however much I may disagree with an indef block. Softlavender (talk) 05:37, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- A 3 month block is the status quo. A 1RR restriction has been encouraged by many, including myself. Those are reasonable. Site ban, indefinite block, etc are not reasonable. Please don't argue for additional unreasonable sanctions and then cite admins that are essentially not asking for a change. --DHeyward (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I responded to your statement that "This ANI has all the markings of a pile-on", which it is not in my opinion, given the number of very experienced and circumspect editors and admins who are advocating strict sanctions (0RR [The Wordsmith, QEDK, Ealdgyth, Blackmane]; 0RR and continuation of the three-month block [Neutrality]; indef block [Cullen328, Calidum]). Softlavender (talk) 06:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- A 3 month block is the status quo. A 1RR restriction has been encouraged by many, including myself. Those are reasonable. Site ban, indefinite block, etc are not reasonable. Please don't argue for additional unreasonable sanctions and then cite admins that are essentially not asking for a change. --DHeyward (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of course the pinged admins didn't care -- he chose admins who were predisposed towards him. There are plenty of diffs and links provided in this thread -- not all of them sufficiently relevant, but enough of them are. And you didn't look at all of the 120 edits WV made to Bess Myerson in 2.5 days including endless edit-warring over some of his unnecessary changes. There is some degree of piling on in this thread, but that's because WV has relentlessly targeted hundreds of good-faith editors over the years. Beyond the piling on, however, you'll find very experienced and circumspect editors and admins such as Cullen328, The Wordsmith, Neutrality, Black Kite, QEDK, Ealdgyth, Calidum, and Blackmane endorsing a three-month block (or longer) and/or a 0RR restriction. So it's hardly an overall pile-on, however much I may disagree with an indef block. Softlavender (talk) 05:37, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- No I am not missing the point nor is Opabinia regalis. I've been around the block to know the difference between a collective feeling of low-level annoyance and long term abusive editors. The lack of diffs, lack of ANI reports, lack of AE reports and virtually no diffs except for multi-year one-off encounters. If he has such a record, take him to ArbCom. This ANI has all the markings of a pile-on with each editor that ever had an unpleasant experience leaves their "death by a thousand cuts" diffless anecdote. I have now read Bess Myerson talk page and he had valid criticism and input. So much so, that only a technical violation of 3RR would warrant a block. There was no abuse or disruption and he called for sourcing where there wasn't any. Nothing wrong with that at all. Another example is how many of winkelvi's detractors lament his pinging admins to his talk page. None of the pinged admins cared. No one thought it necessary to remove talk page access. Yet, there are busy-bodies here that are upset by this behavior. Why is that? It doesn't concern them. It doesn't bother the admins - that makes it defacto not disruptive. But that's another hallmark of piling on. He's not pinging or berating those that are making rather broad accusations against him without diffs. These "one time at band camp..." anecdote need a lot more evidence, not just torches and pitchforks. The place for that is ArbCom because what's hear at ANI is too shallow to warrant additional sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 04:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Like DHeyward, you're missing the point. The reason there is so much agreement on this thread is because hundreds of good-faith editors have been at the receiving end of Winkelvi's obstinate, relentless, heedless, and highly disruptive behavior over the past several years, often multiple times in different venues. The Bess Myerson article is just one example out of several hundred. If there were an ArbCom case, people would present dozens more (I myself have several examples). If you have not been on the receiving end of Winkevli's harassment (and very few admins have; WV knows better), then you do not have the same experience others here do. And ANI is not "supposed to work [by] independent review by uninvolved people with fresh eyes". It is for knowledgeable and experienced editors to give their best recommendations. Lastly, if you think the Bess Myerson article example is a "minor" content dispute, then you have not examined it thoroughly. Either that, or you do not understand extreme edit-warring and WP:BLUDGEONING. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Re: "The original plan worked out by a group of admins familiar with the situation - unblock after some time to think + 1RR - is a sensible one." That plan was "worked out" by three friendly admins WV pinged, an admin known for his extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks (Ritchie, who unblocked WV's one-week block after 2.5 days in February 2016 with a three-month 1RR restriction), and an admin with a longterm feud with the blocker. It was not worked out or agreed to by anyone who has had to deal with WV's disruption (and those that have not had to deal with WV's disruption would include you: [144]). In terms of ANI, you are on record as stating "Nothing good happens at ANI", but in your four years active on Wikipedia you have made only 75 edits here, even though you have been an admin for most of that time: [145]. -- Softlavender (talk) 05:35, 21 March 2017 (UTC); edited 23:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Endorse Block + indefinite 1RR. I am not a fan of indefinite blocks and I also don't think we need to unblock at this point in time. I too, like many editors, have had my run ins with WV and I think while the block was 100% righteous, we can give WV some rope. WV states that he responds well to cut in stone rulings, so we can do that. When he is able to edit again, it should be under indefinite 1RR restrictions. Further edit warring and attacks should result in laddering of blocks. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- What a mess. Of the options presented, I favor unblock with indefinite 1RR restriction, although if the consensus was for 0RR instead of 1RR, I can understand that POV. I do not believe that an indef block is justified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:16, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indefinite block. Yes, it's a mess. End it. The endless saga has to end. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:57, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unblock with 1RR as the admins on his talk page suggested. Are we really going site ban someone over 4 edits to Billy the Kid and two year old reference to a kerfuffle at Bess Myerson? This ANI thread has been more disruptive and been more of an "administrative burden" than anything Winkelvi has done. He's a passionate editor over a very small topic area. That's the type of editor we want to rehabiliate and retain, not site ban. Since the caustic nature of this ANI post has driven many of the contributing admins away, there is no way to form a consensus that changes the status quo. He's been blocked for 3 months because of a 4th revert to that highly watched, hotbed of controversy article of Billy the Kid - apparently the cause of much "administrator burden." Oh and two years ago, I understand that people were upset with his talk page comments at the article Bess Myerson. I could probably get more detail if I read those articles. He has not participated in this ANI mudslinging contest which has actually caused more disruption than anything Winkelvi has done. Keep in mind, we are NOT at ANI because of Winkelvi. Winkelvi was given a 3 month block which was not contested here or brought here by him or anyone seeking a change. Had he been lucky enough to have received an Arbitration Enforcement block, this ANI would have been closed as out-of-process. Think about that: our highest burden articles would not have allowed this process to occur, yet there are editors that think he should receive harsher punishment. Unbelievable. --DHeyward (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
"Are we really going site ban someone over 4 edits to Billy the Kid and two year old reference to a kerfuffle at Bess Myerson?"
No of course not. It would be because of the 10 total blocks (not counting the sockpuppetry one because of the technicality) that he has accumulated over the past three years, and his lengthy history of bullying other editors on talk pages. And yet you single out those two incidents and act as though if these were the only two major things that Winkelvi ever did wrong we'd still be having the same sort of discussion. Unbelievable. Display name 99 (talk) 02:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)- The Billy the kid revert is why he was blocked for 3 months. I did not bring up Bess Myerson but those seeking his ban surely did and they hold a two year old grudge as if he was still actively editing it. For reference, the two year old "talk page bullying" is much smaller than this ANI as well as being much more civil. The entire ten year history of the Bess Myerson talk page is smaller than this ANI. Winkelvi has no authority or rope to bully anybody and no evidence has been presented that he has done so - specifically the editor that he was edit warring with was blocked for a day for the same issue and the same "administrative burden." Beth Myerson was not a "nightmare" by any stretch of the imagination. If those are the strongest indicators of his poor behavior, there is a problem with the system, not Winkelvi. Those were lame an tedious but a real yawner in terms of drama. I care less about the number of blocks and more about circumstances and if the 4th revert on Billy the Kid and talk page kerfufle on [[[Bess Myerson]]] that occurred 2 years ago and is so small, the entirety of it hasn't been archived in nearly ten years.. If the 10 blocks are as lame as those examples, he's not a problem that needs banning or anything more than a revert restriction. His biggest crime on Billy the Kid was that he was forcing BRD when others were not and they edit warred until both broke 3RR. Happens every day. For that, Winkelvi was described as "most unpleasant person (they)'ve ever tried to work with, inside WP or outside." After an edit war over copy edits. That's just doesn't get past the BS meter. Methinks they doth protest too much. --DHeyward (talk) 04:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- DHeyward, you are misrepresenting me. My statement, "Winkelvi is by far the most unpleasant person I've ever tried to work with, inside WP or outside" was based on this instance and several prior encounters with him. I would ask you not to draw conclusions without doing your due diligence, which you obviously haven't done. Carlstak (talk) 13:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- DHeyward, you're missing the point. The reason there is so much agreement on this thread is because hundreds of good-faith editors have been at the receiving end of Winkelvi's obstinate, relentless, heedless, and highly disruptive behavior over the past several years. The Bess Myerson article is just one example. If there were an ArbCom case, people would present dozens more (I myself have several examples). If you have not been on the receiving end (and very few admins have; WV knows better), then you do not have the same experience others here do. Softlavender (talk) 06:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- To put Softlavender's comments in perspective, I suggest that editors go to ANI Archive 871 and scan down to No. 26, "Winkelvi." I do believe it is much longer than this ANI, stretched on over some days, and involved multiple articles and many editors, including some, on both sides, to be found here, including the same defenders. It began with an alleged polemic on his user page, continued with User:J. Johnson's concerns re 2014 Oso mudslide, moved on to Bess Myerson, at which point a topic ban was discussed (the discussion indicates he consented to absent himself from that article and then reneged), went on to an accusation of canvassing (Drmies closed the discussion by agreeing, but called it "mild"), moved on to his user name, then Meghan Trainor, the result of which was that Winkelvi and two people he was in a dispute with were blocked for 48 hours. Coretheapple (talk) 12:58, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- DHeyward, you're missing the point. The reason there is so much agreement on this thread is because hundreds of good-faith editors have been at the receiving end of Winkelvi's obstinate, relentless, heedless, and highly disruptive behavior over the past several years. The Bess Myerson article is just one example. If there were an ArbCom case, people would present dozens more (I myself have several examples). If you have not been on the receiving end (and very few admins have; WV knows better), then you do not have the same experience others here do. Softlavender (talk) 06:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- DHeyward, you are misrepresenting me. My statement, "Winkelvi is by far the most unpleasant person I've ever tried to work with, inside WP or outside" was based on this instance and several prior encounters with him. I would ask you not to draw conclusions without doing your due diligence, which you obviously haven't done. Carlstak (talk) 13:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Billy the kid revert is why he was blocked for 3 months. I did not bring up Bess Myerson but those seeking his ban surely did and they hold a two year old grudge as if he was still actively editing it. For reference, the two year old "talk page bullying" is much smaller than this ANI as well as being much more civil. The entire ten year history of the Bess Myerson talk page is smaller than this ANI. Winkelvi has no authority or rope to bully anybody and no evidence has been presented that he has done so - specifically the editor that he was edit warring with was blocked for a day for the same issue and the same "administrative burden." Beth Myerson was not a "nightmare" by any stretch of the imagination. If those are the strongest indicators of his poor behavior, there is a problem with the system, not Winkelvi. Those were lame an tedious but a real yawner in terms of drama. I care less about the number of blocks and more about circumstances and if the 4th revert on Billy the Kid and talk page kerfufle on [[[Bess Myerson]]] that occurred 2 years ago and is so small, the entirety of it hasn't been archived in nearly ten years.. If the 10 blocks are as lame as those examples, he's not a problem that needs banning or anything more than a revert restriction. His biggest crime on Billy the Kid was that he was forcing BRD when others were not and they edit warred until both broke 3RR. Happens every day. For that, Winkelvi was described as "most unpleasant person (they)'ve ever tried to work with, inside WP or outside." After an edit war over copy edits. That's just doesn't get past the BS meter. Methinks they doth protest too much. --DHeyward (talk) 04:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Do not unblock except under 0RR. A long block (3 months) does not seem unreasonable in light of the long history of problems. I don't think indef is the appropriate action (yet) but it seems clear that the community has reached the end of its patience. 1RR has been tried before and has not produced lasting improvement; so 0RR is the logical next step. Regardless of how this turns out, however, the next block should be indefinite. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 02:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Leave block as is and indefinite 0RR on expiry per my earlier statement. Blackmane (talk) 02:29, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm personally not seeing a consensus to unblock among people who were not pinged by Winkelvi. Also, while I understand an indef block is on the table, I think there should be an ArbCom case before that eventuality is enacted. I personally think the three-month block is defensible given that the last block was for two months. In terms of what should happen after the block ends or expires, I suggest both 0RR and some sort of agreement (similar to TRM's in his AE appeals) not to draw out article-talk disputes. (I'm not sure how to achieve that, but perhaps something like an agreement not to post more than twice in any given disagreement.) We really need to cover article-talk discussions in the sanctions, since WV can bludgeon even a simple well-cited RfC discussion into infinity with endless irrelevant arguments. Softlavender (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC); edited 07:56, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment This discussion was framed as a choice between two polar opposite alternatives, blocking indefinitely and unblocking while imposing editing restrictions. Perhaps the solution is to affirm the three month block and at the conclusion thereof impose an 0RR restriction plus an article talk page restriction of some kind.
- Also I just noticed a comment from Winkelvi on his talk page, in which he said that in this discussion there have been "outright lies, a lot of half-truths, (and) total mischaracterisations". That's a serious matter and I wish I had noticed it sooner. I think it is essential that Winkelvi be given the opportunity to enumerate those "lies, half-truths and micharacterizations." Coretheapple (talk) 14:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I offered him the opportunity to have a statement copied to ANI. He declined, but the offer remains open. BethNaught (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well that's a serious accusation. I'm surprised he wasn't held to account for that on his talk page, as it is an attack on the integrity of editors posting here. He should either substantiate that accusation or withdraw it. Coretheapple (talk) 15:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I offered him the opportunity to have a statement copied to ANI. He declined, but the offer remains open. BethNaught (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support unblock with one-year 0RR restriction (which can only be lifted after the expiry of the duration in a community discussion) and oppose indefinite block (edit conflict). I (and a few other editors) hold that WV is capable of being a net positive (still). I think the editor should simply stop using the *revert* function because I believe they have lost the ability to use it without being contentious. I urge that for the duration of a year, they will do something else and be able to regain the community's favour. --QEDK (愛) 16:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry to be a pain, but could you clear up
I think the editor should simply stop using an ability so contentious, I believe they have lost the right to use it without its use being contentious being 0RR
because I'm having difficulty parsing what you're actually getting at here. Blackmane (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry to be a pain, but could you clear up
Break for a different point
- Comment There is more than one way to create mayhem and harass another editor. I had an unpleasant entanglement with Winkelvi back in the first quarter of 2015. It happened because Winkelvi edited an article on my watch list and we went through the usual dance of an editor making a BOLD edit and then not following WP:BRD. However that is not the reason for this comment (as such behaviour has been covered by many other editors). This comment is to highlight something else. For reasons now obscured in the mists of time (ie. I can not be bothered to look into the history of many articles to find the root cause), Winkelvi became involved with a dispute with user:Kbabej. Winkelvi targeted many articles that user:Kbabej had created, or had made more than a trivial contribution. If the article had a significant history Winkelvi would change it, and then edit war to keep the change (see for example the creation and a section on the talk page: Talk:Robert Hastings Hunkins#WP:UNDUE). But another tactic employed by Winkelvi was the use of AfDs targeted at articles created by user:Kbabej whether or not there were reasonable grounds for doing so. 0/1RR only tackle edit warring in article space, they do [not] stop other sorts of harassment: links to relevant AfDs in particular look at the period 03:16–03:46, 6 March 2015 when Twinkle was used by Winkelvi to create about 20 AfDs. -- PBS (talk) 14:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PBS: I was wondering if you could suggest a possible remedy for what you've described. We are at that point in the discussion. Nothing that you have described would be addressed in the edit-warring (0RR/1RR) remedies. Apart from blocking, what else could be done? Coretheapple (talk) 17:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- PBS, did you mean "they do [not] stop other sorts of harassment"? Carlstak (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well I think I understand his point if "not" was unintentionally omitted. Coretheapple (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- This latest twist makes me think an indef is not enough. If Wink is so vindictive as to follow edit histories and harass editors he doesn't like on other articles, and misuse Afd, then it's time to discuss a community ban. Shame on those calling for an unblock. This is clearly a nasty editor, and needs to be shown the door. Jusdafax 21:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- A perfect example here. [146]Calibrador makes one edit, then Winkelvi shows up, changes the edit and makes a bunch of edits of his own despite not editing the article before. More evidence of this stalking behavior here [147] which led to the block before this one. He continued the same vindictive behavior here [148] and here [149] on Carrie Fisher which was a highly visible article at the time. It's easy to ask for leniency when you haven't been on the receiving end of Winkelvi's wrath before. TL565 (talk) 22:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- This 3RR discussion appears to be the upshot of one of the tussles noted above. What's notable about it is how petty it was, and what a waste of time it was. Two almost identical versions of one photo were at stake in the edit-warring. Winkelvi pinged admins he thought would back him up (which boomeranged). Much back and forth. Over nothing. Result: nothing. Coretheapple (talk) 00:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Coretheapple, that thread is one of the funniest things I've seen all day. Thanks for posting it. Display name 99 (talk) 00:57, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I mentioned before, This one takes the cake. He reported me over a time stamp. It was so petty and dumb, one user almost left the project for good over how ridiculous it was. TL565 (talk) 00:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't understand what you meant by "time stamp," so I wasted three minutes of my life to look at the edit history. I think it's important for editors to understand what happened, so I will briefly elaborate. An editor (hereinafter "Dave") posted a talk page comment that he neglected to sign. Some time later he signed it. The date stamp was inaccurate, as it was off by some minutes from the time he actually wrote the comment. TL565
(who deserved a trout slap for doing this)changed the time stamp to reflect when "Dave" actually posted it. Winkelvi objected. An edit war began. Then an AN3 discussion initiated by Winkelvi. Over nothing. Coretheapple (talk) 01:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)- TL565, that's probably the most ridiculous report for anything that I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Also, I like how he reported you for edit-warring after only 2 reverts, but later claimed that he didn't think he deserved a block after 4 of them. The hypocrisy is almost beyond belief. Display name 99 (talk) 01:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- It bears mentioning with respect to the foregoing that Winkelvi has 25,760 edits and has been editing since April 7, 2012. The "time stamp" discussion occurred in September 2016. Coretheapple (talk) 01:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- TL565, that's probably the most ridiculous report for anything that I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Also, I like how he reported you for edit-warring after only 2 reverts, but later claimed that he didn't think he deserved a block after 4 of them. The hypocrisy is almost beyond belief. Display name 99 (talk) 01:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't understand what you meant by "time stamp," so I wasted three minutes of my life to look at the edit history. I think it's important for editors to understand what happened, so I will briefly elaborate. An editor (hereinafter "Dave") posted a talk page comment that he neglected to sign. Some time later he signed it. The date stamp was inaccurate, as it was off by some minutes from the time he actually wrote the comment. TL565
- This 3RR discussion appears to be the upshot of one of the tussles noted above. What's notable about it is how petty it was, and what a waste of time it was. Two almost identical versions of one photo were at stake in the edit-warring. Winkelvi pinged admins he thought would back him up (which boomeranged). Much back and forth. Over nothing. Result: nothing. Coretheapple (talk) 00:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- A perfect example here. [146]Calibrador makes one edit, then Winkelvi shows up, changes the edit and makes a bunch of edits of his own despite not editing the article before. More evidence of this stalking behavior here [147] which led to the block before this one. He continued the same vindictive behavior here [148] and here [149] on Carrie Fisher which was a highly visible article at the time. It's easy to ask for leniency when you haven't been on the receiving end of Winkelvi's wrath before. TL565 (talk) 22:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well I think I understand his point if "not" was unintentionally omitted. Coretheapple (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- PBS, did you mean "they do [not] stop other sorts of harassment"? Carlstak (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why does "TL565 ... deserve[] a trout slap" for correcting the timestamp? Correct timestamps are extremely important -- to verify who said what & when, especially if there is a later dispute or report or a question of who was replying to whom and why. Softlavender (talk) 01:26, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- It was seen as refactoring other people's talk page comments and should be up to the original poster to correct their post. Whatever, I don't do that anymore. if someone wants to put the wrong time, that's their problem. As you can see, Winkelvi knows the rules very well on here. TL565 (talk) 01:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- In no way, shape, or form is correcting a timestamp on a previously unsigned post "refactoring other people's talk page comments". Please see WP:TPO. This proves that Winkelvi does not sufficiently understand that policy, even after 5 years and 25,000 edits. What he appears to be here for at least some of the time is battling with others via inane edit-warring, arguing, and spurious reporting, to the point of petty vengeance. Softlavender (talk) 02:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well it seemed a little piddling, but your point is well taken and I withdraw the trout slap! Coretheapple (talk) 02:09, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- In no way, shape, or form is correcting a timestamp on a previously unsigned post "refactoring other people's talk page comments". Please see WP:TPO. This proves that Winkelvi does not sufficiently understand that policy, even after 5 years and 25,000 edits. What he appears to be here for at least some of the time is battling with others via inane edit-warring, arguing, and spurious reporting, to the point of petty vengeance. Softlavender (talk) 02:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- It was seen as refactoring other people's talk page comments and should be up to the original poster to correct their post. Whatever, I don't do that anymore. if someone wants to put the wrong time, that's their problem. As you can see, Winkelvi knows the rules very well on here. TL565 (talk) 01:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why does "TL565 ... deserve[] a trout slap" for correcting the timestamp? Correct timestamps are extremely important -- to verify who said what & when, especially if there is a later dispute or report or a question of who was replying to whom and why. Softlavender (talk) 01:26, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Wow. Having looked over all the complaints about Winkelvi here, and some of the voluminous discussions involving him elsewhere, I get the impression that he enjoys conflict. There is an unusual amount of animosity being expressed here, even for ANI. When someone repeatedly engages in behavior that has had negative consequences for them, it's because they're getting some kind of psychological payoff. Winkelvi is the star of these wiki-battles, the star of the show, so to speak, and attention is centered on him. Massive payoff. Carlstak (talk) 19:45, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- What, Winkelvi again?? What colossal waste of time, and patience. Indefinite Block him, please, and let's be done with this. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- J. Johnson, Winkelvi is already sitting out a 90-day block. We're here to decide what else to do with him. Major options that have previously been proposed in this thread include unblocking with a 1 revert or 0 revert restriction, having him sit out the full block and then apply the restrictions, or applying an indefinite block. Which do you prefer? Display name 99 (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- My apologies for the lack of precision; I will emend. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- J. Johnson, Winkelvi is already sitting out a 90-day block. We're here to decide what else to do with him. Major options that have previously been proposed in this thread include unblocking with a 1 revert or 0 revert restriction, having him sit out the full block and then apply the restrictions, or applying an indefinite block. Which do you prefer? Display name 99 (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I finally had to take a breather from all this, being a working girl, but came back to look at the progress, and continue to be appalled by what I see. It seems to trouble no one that Winklevi has essentially called all of us who have reported our issues with him liars. To her credit, BethNaught gave him a chance to make a statement, but instead, he chose to climb up on the cross and play the martyr. His choice, of course, but to what end? Well, it certainly cuts off our ability to confront him about the waves of bullshit, harassment, pursuit ad nauseam that many of of us have been subjected to. Meanwhile, the "poor widdle Winklevi" pageant drags on with no action, and we who are in his line of sight must wait for some sort of solution to his widespread, chronic and highly problematic behavior. Again, when are we going to be the priority of the administrative corps weighing in, rather than an editor with a long block log and a massive collection of excuses? --Drmargi (talk) 01:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- It rather undermines your point to throw in a near-PA such as "poor widdle Winkelvi", don't you think? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Especially after the Calibrador and timestamp discussions were posted, and of course all the other evidence that has been submitted, I can't see how anyone who isn't a buddy of Winkelvi can be in favor of anything less than an indefinite block. (I'm not accusing anybody, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me.) These issues demonstrate a clear intention by Winkelvi to harass, stalk, and bully editors that he doesn't like. It's about time we got a consensus here to get this disruptive and unhelpful editor off this website indefinitely. Some sort of community ban would definitely take care of it for me. Display name 99 (talk) 02:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, there's been a lot of evidence here, but, collectively, it doesn't add up (at least in my estimation) to an indef block. That's the kind of thing we usually save for real, hard-core vandals, puppet masters, and other miscreants, and I don't see Winkelvi as being in that category. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, that's not correct. Another user with
veryuncannily similar issues (edit warring over nothing; tendentious editing on talk pages) and a much shorter block log was indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing after an ANI discussion similar to this one. I don't know how kosher it is to identify that user, but if anyone asks, I will link to the ANI at which he was permablocked. The primary difference is that user's failure to cultivate administrators to bail him out, run interference for him in situations like this, and give him another chance and another chance and another chance. Coretheapple (talk) 03:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC) - As a matter of fact that editor had only been blocked two times previously, both as part of the same dispute in which he/she was indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing. I think one of the comments in that ANI is worth repeating as it applies to this situation as well:
- No, that's not correct. Another user with
Personally, I don't like the idea of letting more damage being caused by this user; I'd prefer skipping straight to the most nuclear option available because this sort of tendentious editing is such a time-wasting exercise for existing contributors, and more dangerously, it has the effect of chasing away the limited resources we have too permanently. . . . I have yet to find a situation where the net outcome for the project has been positive by delaying sanctions in the never-ending wait for a user with these sorts of issues to reach the required level of improvement. Rehabilitation on the English wiki hasn't been successful for this type of issue, and has in fact caused further cuts (read: burn-out) to the resources available here. The community has had more than enough experience with earlier good faith attempts at fixing this type of issue which has repeatedly proved ineffective, and it is simply at the point where it cannot afford to keep making the same mistake.
- The subject of the above comment was much, much less of a burden on the community than Winkelvi.Coretheapple (talk) 03:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yet more talk page drama here, Talk:Mike_Pence/Archive_2#Photo. As you can see, I didn't have as much patience with him as some other users. This is someone who will never admit to making any mistake. Instead, he will escalate it and accuse you of personal attacks and not assuming good faith. For sake of the community he needs to be indef blocked already. Just imagine how much future drama and anguish will be saved if it is done now. TL565 (talk) 02:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- having read through those two ANEW reports, all I can say is "Wow, just wow" at the complete and utter pettiness of them. Blackmane (talk) 02:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support any escalation - incl. indef 1RR, indef 0RR, or (extremely unfortunately) indef block. I have only rarely interacted with Winkelvi and these interactions were quite cordial. I have had far sourer interactions for which I would not request an indef block than almost any presented here, I am however extremely concerned about the hounding of calibrador described far above and another editor whom I cannot name because it has been lost somewhere in the mess. Winkelvi has, in my estimation, done some good work for the project. In this sense I would hate for the esclation chosen to be an indefinite block and absolutely despise even the notion of a community ban. A CBAN would perfectly exemplify the nature of AN/I's reputation for stoking minor flames into engorging blazes. That said, to anybody not viewing this through a rose-tinted ("tinted" really it's two-layered frosted glass you can't see anything through) lens, it should be apparent that doing nothing (including letting the block ride out) will by extension do nothing to curb real (or even perceived) issues that many editors have with Winkelvi. It would be irresponsible for those defending Winkelvi to set him up for this future failure that will (read: will) invariably (read dramatically: in-fucking-variably) result in a future indefinite block or community ban. I am concerned, however, that 0RR will only stop edit-warring and not anything else. I cannot think of a valid remedy for the issues of battlegrounding and harrassment (wikihounding) presented above. Indeed the most common remedy for these behaviours is an eventual indefinite block. To be blunt, I would support an indefinite community ban for a furthered instance of wikihounding, harrassment, or abuse. For the time being I cannot because at some point the statute of limitations has to be applied. For me, it is too late to be bringing a spate from 2 or more years ago as evidence. This statute is subject to my subjective interpretation of events. As far as I am concerned, edit-warring is not solved by indefinite blocks, but, by editing restrictions whether P/TBAN in instances where edit-warring can be linked to topics or pages, or, 1RR and 0RR where edit-warring is pervasive and widespread and not limited to a page or topic. I would have to demand a strong case be presented (separately from this display) to act or recommend an action over wikihounding and harrassment.
Unrelatedly, I found certain behaviours displayed here by involved and uninvolved editors to be quite poor and worthy of reprimand themselves (trout or warning only; even though some of it is block worthy). DHeyward is not wrong to call this thread "caustic" especially when considering some of the behaviour displayed here. It has left me with a quite sour taste because some editors that I do respect have participated in this. This I find unfortunate. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:33, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Re "statute of limitations": the two-year-old disputes are relevant in demonstrating how the same issues have persisted over the years (edit-warring/tendentious editing on active vs. passive voice at Myerson in Jan. 2015; and edit warring/tendentiousness over active vs, passive voice at Billy the Kid in March 2017 and talk-page time stamps in Sept. 2016). Yes, threads are caustic. Why? Because editors are only human, and it seems to those of us who have dealt with him (who are not administrators he has cultivated) that Winkelvi is viewed by his defenders as an object of compassion and the community just has to suck it up and endure him. As I indicated above, that is not the approach that has been taken in very similar situations in the past, including one that I'm personally acquainted with and discuss directly above. Coretheapple (talk) 13:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, threads are not caustic. This thread is caustic and it became caustic because of the participants on it. The causticism has nothing to do with the subject matter; case in point, Winkelvi has not said so much as a syllable (to be put on this thread) for the duration of this discussion. You could deflect this to the "defenders" of Winkelvi, and indeed you'd be half right, but, you'd also be half-wrong. A positive and a negative have no net value. This thread would be less than 1/10th of it's current length if editors were not swiping shots at each other in replies and instead made their case and then left - as I will proceed to do so from here on out - and accepted whatever outcome as that would be, by definition, community enforced. You may respond if you wish and I will read the response. Don't take this as me just knocking the table over and saying "I'm out". This thread is unique to me (despite my participation in possibly a hundred such threads) in that there are three separate "extended content" closes of unproductive (inflammatory even) commentary between editors that were required to re-rail the discussion. As for my statute of limitations, I have one question to be self-answered and the net result is the same. Were these dealt with at the time? if no then the statute has expired for me and I won't take it into any consideration unless they detail something especially egregious (harrasment for example), if yes then double jeopardy/time served whichever the case. Escalation does not mean relitigation. Besides, I am supporting any action taken (because some action should be taken) and I personally recommend indefinite 0RR to end the issue of edit-warring. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:54, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I guess it would be preferable if people were more succinct and pleasant, but that tends not to happen when people are trying to describe tendentious editing to third parties who don't always ooze empathy and sometimes are belittling. It also reflects the wide swath cut by an editor with 25,000 edits, five years on the project and recurrent issues. As a point of comparison, this ANI has only gone on for five days. The 2015 Winkelvi case, scroll down to Item 26 here, involved identical issues, was far longer and more acrimonious than this one, and dragged on for twenty days. Coretheapple (talk) 15:04, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As Ritchie333 astutely noted, the longer this thread goes on without a clear consensus, the more likely an admin will come along and shove the entire issue "down the road". I understand many editors have a variety of issues with Winkelvi but taking whacks at him won't be allowed to go on for too much longer. --NeilN talk to me 15:25, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't start this discussion, and neither did any of the editors taking "whacks" at Winkelvi as you put it. A block was imposed and whoa! What an uproar. Defenders are pinged and rush in. So Coffee came here (which itself got him chastised severely). Want to kick the can down the road? Nothing can be done to prevent that even if there was a succinct discussion without whacks. Coretheapple (talk) 15:33, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- By the way, while I don't agree with you, I can see how some might view this as unduly like Festivus. If you have any suggestions for a compromise, please suggest. I posted one (adding to what 99 said below), but I didn't have my heart in it and I self-reverted it. Coretheapple (talk) 16:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- This edit to Winkelvi's talk page bears mentioning here. Personally, if I was a neutral uninvolved administrator trying to make a decision here, I would have Winkelvi sit out the full 90-day block followed by an indefinite 0 RR. It would seem to be the best way to find a middle ground between those calling for an indefinite block or community ban and those calling for a 1 RR, while also satisfying all those who want a 0 RR. Display name 99 (talk) 14:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I think I said upthread or elsewhere, I oppose 0RR because it means Winkelvi cannot revert someone lacking WP:COMPETENCE doing something good faith but obviously wrong anywhere. Consider a newbie adding something factually correct but full of puffery and weasel words; is Winkelvi violating 0RR by removing that puffery and stripping it back to the bare facts? However, when I proposed 1RR, I put a pretty clear stipulation that a) it was forever and b) on the first violation he would be booted off and not be allowed back without taking the standard offer, which appears to have not been mentioned so much in this thread. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 17:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ritchie333, if Winkelvi was to be placed on a 0RR and happened to see an edit adding factually incorrect material, he could either wait for somebody else to revert it or ping the editor as part of a POLITE message on the article's talk page. I just don't think we can trust Winkelvi after hitting the revert button once to not do it again if his reversion is reverted, while claiming vandalism or whatever else he can think up to excuse his behavior. Display name 99 (talk) 19:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I think I said upthread or elsewhere, I oppose 0RR because it means Winkelvi cannot revert someone lacking WP:COMPETENCE doing something good faith but obviously wrong anywhere. Consider a newbie adding something factually correct but full of puffery and weasel words; is Winkelvi violating 0RR by removing that puffery and stripping it back to the bare facts? However, when I proposed 1RR, I put a pretty clear stipulation that a) it was forever and b) on the first violation he would be booted off and not be allowed back without taking the standard offer, which appears to have not been mentioned so much in this thread. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 17:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Endorse blockextend up to six month block, and no appeal before three months have passed per prior experience with this editor. That experience had nothing to do with edit warring (interaction with a COI editor who wasn't editing mainspace anyway), but everything with Winkelvi's rude talk page behaviour. Transforming the sanction to 0RR/1RR would only address part of the problem. This sheds a new light on Winkelvi's "... Aspergers ... please leave me a civil message ... Being rude will get you nowhere." – hadn't seen that caveat at the time (maybe it wasn't there yet), but this is for me a deal breaker: it seems to suggest that they want to appropriate some sort of "right to be rude" (under the protection of "hey, I have autism spectrum so you can expect me to be rude") but won't treat others on the same footing. Accidentally I meet quite some people with autism spectrum, ADHD, ADD,... IRL. Some of them may be generally ruder in their interactions than others (who, for instance, may be extremely shy): however, for finding a place in society it never helps them to suggest that they should expect society to adapt to how they prefer their interactions with it. The Wikipedia editing community is such a society: Aspergers should never be an argument in how an editor wants to tailor their interactions with that community. So the message the Wikipedia community should be sending here is that behavioural guidelines apply the same to everyone. When Winkelvi returns to editing (if they have Aspergers there is little doubt that they will return to editing imho), further infringements on behavioural guidelines should be addressed with escalating blocks (which thus may be something in the order of magnitude of six months next time). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC) Updated !vote, see below.00:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: Do you have any thoughts as to whether restrictions on, say, his talk page behavior subsequent to expiration of the block would be worth trying? I ask because there seems to be sentiment to wrap things up. Among people who have dealt with Winkelvi, there is no confidence that administrators will actually apply escalating blocks even if they are theoretically available, hence a desire to find a solution here that will put an end to this situation. Coretheapple (talk) 16:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Issuing specific behavioural strictures à la tête du client kind of beats the purpose of sending the message "that behavioural guidelines apply the same to everyone" (which I would prefer – see above). Wrapping this up once and for all—wouldn't that be nice...—may be impractical: either Winkelvi is given a positive chance to exhibit better behaviour next time, no more encumbered than by a block log which needs not to be mentioned again when their behaviour turns for the better, or face a chain of appeals and counter-appeals draining community resources.
- Re. "... no confidence that administrators will [do or not do whatever in the future]" – not the topic here. I'm not an admin but respect their discretionary powers. While an admin would take the flak for installing a pre-emptive measure of this kind, that admin would also be issuing a vote of no-confidence in their own kind for their inability to address a future situation which may or may not occur. Thus I'd advise any admin not to react with such pre-emptive measures. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:25, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sure it's one of the topics here. It has to be. We are here in a discussion commenced by the blocking admin, Coffee. Winkelvi pinged a bunch of administrators after he was blocked, and the pinged admins proceeded to roast Coffee over an open spit. Coffee held his ground and came here. Winkelvi himself has attacked the editors here as "liars" but declined to actually say what "lies" have been told about him, which not one admin has challenged on his page. So yes, indubitably, the prospect of Winkelvi resorting to such tactics in the future, and admins showing empathy toward him and not toward people with whom he comes into conflict, is definitely on the minds of non-admin editors he has encountered in the past. 0RR, 1RR and possible talk page methods are not designed to tie the hands of administrators, however. The point simply is to act now, rip the bandaid off the skin so to speak, enact measures so that we won't be back here again. Coretheapple (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd be more worried about the (implied) canvassing, and the name-calling, during the current proceedings than about what might or might not happen in the future (and about how hypothetics might reflect on admins). Looking a bit more into the current case (my first reflection was primarily based on a previous experience) I'm updating my preference to six month block. I still feel less inclined (but strictly speaking not opposed) to 0RR/1RR kind of accompanying measures: if they would edit-war again that would call for appropriate measures, even before 3RR is trespassed. I'd appreciate if the closure of this thread (and the notification to Winkelvi when it gets closed) would mention they need to take a close look at the Wikipedia:edit warring guidance again: that it can be detected way before a technical 3RR violation, and that editors should live up to it. And that WP:EDITCONSENSUS is official policy, while WP:BRD is less than an essay, and not at all as practical as it pretends to be. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sure it's one of the topics here. It has to be. We are here in a discussion commenced by the blocking admin, Coffee. Winkelvi pinged a bunch of administrators after he was blocked, and the pinged admins proceeded to roast Coffee over an open spit. Coffee held his ground and came here. Winkelvi himself has attacked the editors here as "liars" but declined to actually say what "lies" have been told about him, which not one admin has challenged on his page. So yes, indubitably, the prospect of Winkelvi resorting to such tactics in the future, and admins showing empathy toward him and not toward people with whom he comes into conflict, is definitely on the minds of non-admin editors he has encountered in the past. 0RR, 1RR and possible talk page methods are not designed to tie the hands of administrators, however. The point simply is to act now, rip the bandaid off the skin so to speak, enact measures so that we won't be back here again. Coretheapple (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: Do you have any thoughts as to whether restrictions on, say, his talk page behavior subsequent to expiration of the block would be worth trying? I ask because there seems to be sentiment to wrap things up. Among people who have dealt with Winkelvi, there is no confidence that administrators will actually apply escalating blocks even if they are theoretically available, hence a desire to find a solution here that will put an end to this situation. Coretheapple (talk) 16:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm agnostic on unblocking, but I strongly support at least a year's 0RR restriction if unblocked early. The 1RR restriction seems to have not taken, so to me, repeating that isn't going to solve the problem. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Not relevant to the discussion at all. BMK, Coretheapple has received the message, either they heed it or they don't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr rnddude (talk • contribs) 06:09, 23 March 2017 (UTC) |
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| I must say that I am more than a little put off by Coretheapple's choice to act as the prosecutor in the case against Winkelvi, which smacks of WP:BLUDGEON and WP:ABF. My suggestion is that they refrain from any additional commentary, as their bias is quite apparent in their expressed views, and they're unlikely to contribute any clarity to this discussion with further commentary. They have no obligation to depose other editors to find out their views, nor are they doing themselves any particular favors with their overall behavior in this discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
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Compromise proposal
We have a very extreme range in the !votes on this entire thread, from "immediate unblock with limited-term 1RR restriction", to "indef block". I propose a compromise: Three-month block followed by indefinite 0RR, appealable in six months if no talkpage WP:BLUDGEONING has occurred. In other words, the current three-month block remains in place, followed by an indefinite WP:0RR restriction. The 0RR restriction may be appealed here at ANI after six months (six months after the block expires). If no talkpage WP:BLUDGEONING has occurred during that time, the 0RR restriction may be either lifted or replaced with a 1RR restriction. Softlavender (talk) 01:37, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support, as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 01:37, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support with proviso that the block itself is not subject to appeal. --Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 02:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Every block is subject to appeal. I think we can leave it to our admin corps to decide if the unblock request is warranted or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- To Figureofnine and BMK: The proposal explicitly states (in bold) that the current three-month block is retained. If you support the proposal as written, that is a given. If you support it with changes, or support something else, then that would need to be stated in your !vote. Softlavender (talk) 02:38, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- My point to Figureofnine, is that, while I could well be wrong, I cannot recall the forced imposition of a non-appeallable block, although if Winkelvi were to agree to not being allowed to appeal the block, that would be a different matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:59, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- To Figureofnine and BMK: The proposal explicitly states (in bold) that the current three-month block is retained. If you support the proposal as written, that is a given. If you support it with changes, or support something else, then that would need to be stated in your !vote. Softlavender (talk) 02:38, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - I would agree with the proposal if it called for IRR, but 0RR is not warranted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- BMK, I totally hear you on that, and various people in the thread have advocated a 1RR restriction. But the concern repeatedly voiced that 1RR merely allows edit-warring to be spread out more slowly, and the overwhelming number of "indef block" !votes, caused me to propose a situation where the concerns of the "indef block" !voters and the "0RR" !voters would be covered. Softlavender (talk) 02:38, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support My view hasn't changed since the last two times I !voted for the same thing. Blackmane (talk) 02:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - in short; I have advocated for 0RR above and I fully and absolutely agree that the block should not be lifted. I'd say 1 year appeal, but, six months is fine if that is the consensus. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per my above comments Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 07:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hear you, Ritchie, but as others have observed several times, 1RR will not stop Winkelvi from edit-warring (nor from talk-page bludgeoning); it will only slow him down on the edit-warring, and will not stop talk-page bludgeoning at all. Also, there is enormous support for an indef block, and therefore I believe a 1RR proposal, even an indefinite one, will be very unlikely to gain consensus. Whereas a proposal that meets everyone's concerns can easily gain consensus and avoid an indef block. Softlavender (talk) 07:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- 0RR will probably increase talk page bludgeoning. I believe the effect will be similar to The Rambling Man's talk page when he was briefly blocked, which might as well have had a redirect of WP:ERRORS2. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 13:59, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- There are editors who spend days, weeks or months not reverting. I'm sure there are editors who have never reverted. There are hundreds if not thousands of articles that have never had a single revert. If Winkelvi can't control his talk page behavior, if he needs an outlet in reverting, then he should be indefinitely blocked. Coretheapple (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- 0RR will probably increase talk page bludgeoning. I believe the effect will be similar to The Rambling Man's talk page when he was briefly blocked, which might as well have had a redirect of WP:ERRORS2. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 13:59, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hear you, Ritchie, but as others have observed several times, 1RR will not stop Winkelvi from edit-warring (nor from talk-page bludgeoning); it will only slow him down on the edit-warring, and will not stop talk-page bludgeoning at all. Also, there is enormous support for an indef block, and therefore I believe a 1RR proposal, even an indefinite one, will be very unlikely to gain consensus. Whereas a proposal that meets everyone's concerns can easily gain consensus and avoid an indef block. Softlavender (talk) 07:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ritchie333, please re-read the proposal: The only way Winkelvi can have the 0RR lifted is to completely avoid talkpage bludgeoning. That was specifically built in to my proposal. Softlavender (talk) 22:17, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support as the best feasible option. I thank Softlavender for wading through all this, finding the common ground and for proposing a solution that will achieve two important things that are loud and clear in this discussion: a) the need for long-term consequences accruing to Winklevi for his edit warring and; b) the need for a very short rope where Winlevi's WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior is concerned. --Drmargi (talk) 11:14, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - although I don't really care if the block remains as long as the 0RR is put in place. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support I think this proposal works. The block should not be subject to lifting except by community agreement here, and Winkelvi should be warned against canvassing, as he has done for years whenever he gets in a jam. Canvassing specifically defined as pinging. We are here because of canvassing, which resulted in the mess on his talk page and the mess here. Thanks to Coffee for holding firm on the block and to Softlavender for this compromise proposal. Also I with agree with User:Starke Hathaway below and other editors that this needs to be the Last Chance Saloon, with the next step being an indef. Coretheapple (talk) 13:28, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - I actually proposed the exact same thing a few days ago somewhere in this mess of a thread.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:43, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support This is an editor whose zeal too often overmatches his judgment. That's been hard on a lot of members of the community and has sucked up a lot of time and electrons. But, the long history here still argues for trying to reach some reasonable accommodation. We may never think of a true vandal as a member of our community. But Winkelvi is demonstrably not a vandal and is a member of our community, however vexing his behavior sometimes may be. Taking one more shot at retaining his contributions while ameliorating the drama, a shot embodied in this proposed compromise, seems to me a risk worth taking. David in DC (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - per my two comments above. This is an editor shown above to have multiple long-term issues aside from blatant edit-warring, including massive edit stalking and abuse of AfD to vindictively get back at other editors. This is an editor hostile to those who dare to disagree with him and one who simply believes they are never wrong, except when they are about to be sanctioned. The admin canvassing alone is reprehensible. If you don't indef now, we will be having this same time sink of a process down the road. I see plenty of support for an indef above. The long history of problems with this editor should end here and now, instead of kicking the can down the road. Jusdafax 16:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Jusdafax, I'm with you here. But unfortunately we don't have consensus for an indefinite block or community ban. Too many people voted in this thread who either a) are Winkelvi's allies or b) have never been victimized by him and who don't know how severe the behavior is. I think that this solution is clearly the best we can get. As I said below, I hope (and am confident, I might add) that if we end up back here in less than a year's time because of Winkelvi's inappropriate behavior that we can finally get rid of him. Display name 99 (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Comment "within an hour get numerous primary editors there supporting him"-Initial post at Commons was 02:13, 24 December 2016 (UTC) The first response to it was more than four hours later-06:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC). You were indeffed as a Commons Community Ban on 30 December 2016. It was because of what you did or didn't do in the way of uploads there-not the actions of another editor you either have mis-stated or can't prove. We hope (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Since when is fixing bad links a response? the edit. We hope (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
They are to keep them connected with your comments due to your mis-statements vs what actually happened. We hope (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
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- Support as a reasonable reflection of the community's loss of patience with this editor. I would prefer that the block be replaced by the 0RR restriction immediately, rather than forcing a three-month wait to see whether Winkelvi intends to abide by the restriction or not. If we've decided that 0RR is the appropriate restriction then the block is no longer preventative. I prefer 1RR for reasons I've stated earlier but will not oppose on that basis. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:35, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - Winklevi would do well to heed his own advice - "Edit warring is not just violating 3RR, it is also a behavior...", which came from this EW report from 6 months ago noted above, WV also drops this policy reminder from WP:EW and WP:3RR into that discussion: Even without a 3RR violation, an administrator may still act if they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit warring with or without 3RR being breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. And when he is accused of having "a lengthy history of edit warring" in that discussion, he responds with - Precisely why I know what I'm talking about. So in my opinion, WV knew he was edit warring in this instance for which he was blocked, and since he acknowledges his lengthy history of edit warring, it should come as no surprise to him that there was an escalation in this block. I also believe Coffee's block was justified and endorse it as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support-This is clearly the best we can get out of this discussion. My hope is that if we end up back here any time within the next year or so because Winkelvi continues to cause trouble, we can get consensus for an indefinite block or community ban. But for now I'll settle with this. Display name 99 (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2017 (UTC) I also think that if a significant (or increased) amount of talk page bludgeoning occurs during this restriction that it could be enough for indefinite block, as opposed to merely not lifting the restriction. Display name 99 (talk) 20:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support per my prior comments and David in DC. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:44, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
(first DHeyward vote moved down to #!Votes needing attention) --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support as second choice after indef block. Stikkyy (talk) (contributions) 02:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support just to close this. I would also add that breaking the 0RR should result in an indef, so we should hopefully not have to deal with this again. I would also propose that WV is allowed (although I'm not sure it's forbidden) to ping people or adminhelp template to revert when necessary, but should be used judiciously. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:36, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support I previously supported an indefinite block but also said that I was prepared to support consensus. This seems to be the compromise most widely supported by the community and I hope that this can be resolved very soon with general acceptance of what I see as the emerging consensus. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:29, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - Something is needed beyond hoping against hope that, after years of these issues with little discernible improvement, a 3-month block will cause Winkelvi to suddenly see the light. As this proposal appears to stand the best chance of consensus, I support it. I also agree that this should be the last chance before indef, provided the next complaint has as much substance. While I accept the theoretical possibility of an editor who contributes so much as to be worth this amount of turmoil, I've yet to encounter them. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:42, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
(second DHeyward vote moved down to #!Votes needing attention) --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support per my comments elsewhere in this thread. I think it should also be made clear that this is the last step before indef. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 11:06, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Lukewarm support. I thought we had this hammered out, a consensus among admins none of whom related to Winkelvi, and some of them certainly not known for being pushovers. I still support a 1R restriction, for all the reasons given by Ritchie, DHeyward, and others, but if it's between this and an indef block, I'll take this. And I note also that this thread is interminable in part because Winkelvi has rubbed plenty of people the wrong way, but also because some of those people seem to be very litigious and fond of carrying grudges. The project is big enough, and 1R is an incredible tight leash, and those who've been put on it can testify to that. It's behavioral training, whereas 0R is just punishment and an invitation to just fuck with an editor and get him upset, for those of who who hate him so much. What I will ask of you, Softlavender, should this be passing, is that you (yes, you) built in a line that says "DON'T POKE THE BEAR". Hounding/harassment will not be tolerated. Drmies (talk) 16:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- "Rubbed people the wrong way"? That's why we're here? Against whom are an array of grudge-holding and "very litigious" editors? That's a neutral statement by a neutral editor and not an advocate? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Drmies, you know that I hold you in very high regard, and you also know that I am not quick to call for sanctions against editors. But in this specific case, I think that you are underestimating the sheer amount of disruption to the encyclopedia that this editor has created for years, alienating and antagonizing many otherwise productive editors over and over and over again. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support as a reasonable compromise, although I'd prefer a 1RR per discussion on this long thread. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support as reasonable compromise per above. I view the 0RR as frankly essential. Neutralitytalk 18:26, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reluctantly support because an indef block appears out of reach at this point, for reasons I still don't fully understand. See you guys back here in five months. Calidum 05:12, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Though I'd prefer something in the lines of unblock and one-year 0RR restriction. --QEDK (愛) 06:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
!Votes needing attention
@DHeyward: in a !voting procedure it is almost never a good idea to !vote twice (please keep your fellow-Wikipedians, such as a potential closer of this discussion, in mind who try to parse this). Could you attend to this? I'd suggest to replace the initial bolded word of either of your !votes by Comment, which would address this potential confusion, after which this #!Votes needing attention subsection title can be removed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Many of the initial admins have bailed. This is a solution in search of a problem. Admins had it worked out on Winkelvi's talk page. It should have enced there. There is no way any consensus of the community can be achieved when so many have moved off the discussion due to the caustic nature of this thread. Any change from here is invalid. File arbcom if a different outcome is desired. --DHeyward (talk) 01:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)+
- Of the five admins on WV's talk page that had "worked [it] out", none of them were neutral. Three of them were friendly admins that WV had ping-canvassed rather than using WP:UNBLOCK; one was an admin known for their extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks (Ritchie, who unblocked WV's one-week block after 2.5 days in February 2016 with a three-month 1RR restriction); and one was an admin with a longterm feud with the blocker. Softlavender (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree with your aspersions and this is not the place to make them. Feel free to file an Arbitration case with evidence but your viewpoint is skewed enough as to make this "compromise" moot and certainly not a good faith effort to respect many different views. --DHeyward (talk) 01:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- You can disagree but that doesn't make Softlavender's points any less truthful. I also don't see how this proposal wasn't done in good faith. It literally is an in-between for those who want an indef block and those comfortable with repeating the 1RR stipulation again.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree with your aspersions and this is not the place to make them. Feel free to file an Arbitration case with evidence but your viewpoint is skewed enough as to make this "compromise" moot and certainly not a good faith effort to respect many different views. --DHeyward (talk) 01:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of the five admins on WV's talk page that had "worked [it] out", none of them were neutral. Three of them were friendly admins that WV had ping-canvassed rather than using WP:UNBLOCK; one was an admin known for their extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks (Ritchie, who unblocked WV's one-week block after 2.5 days in February 2016 with a three-month 1RR restriction); and one was an admin with a longterm feud with the blocker. Softlavender (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't made aspersions; I'm stating observable facts. I don't know why you feel my viewpoint is skewed. The "many different views" expressed before my proposal were as follows [Note: many people expressed their !votes two or three times so I have counted carefully and eliminated redundancies]: 16 supports for 0RR; 13 supports for indef block; 12 supports for 1RR. I created a proposal that would satisfy the concerns of those calling for an indef block but keep Winkelvi on wiki while providing both a preventative to his edit-warring (as desired by the plurarity -- the 0RR !voters) and to his talkpage bludgeoning, but still allowing him to improve and for the sanction to be ameliorated if he so chooses. This proposal addresses the major concerns of all parties, while still keeping him on wiki. I do not think an ArbCom case is necessary since if concerns are addressed and a consensus is agreed upon, a lengthy drawn-out and contentious ArbCom can be avoided. If you can think of a proposal likely to gain consensus which addresses the concerns of the majority, you can certainly propose it. My goal is to resolve, not to prolong, this dispute. Softlavender (talk) 02:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The obserable is you have a beef with Winkelvi. It's as observable as any other that you have listed. If you you have evidence that the admins you hace characterized agree with your characterization, then present it so we know. Otherwise it's an aspersion that implies the admins you have characteried are acting contrary to the interest of the project. I doubt any agree that they have a grudge, animosity or anything less than impartial. Take it to ArbCom s tey are serious allegations that you think we need to accept as fact. --DHeyward (talk) 04:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't made aspersions; I'm stating observable facts. I don't know why you feel my viewpoint is skewed. The "many different views" expressed before my proposal were as follows [Note: many people expressed their !votes two or three times so I have counted carefully and eliminated redundancies]: 16 supports for 0RR; 13 supports for indef block; 12 supports for 1RR. I created a proposal that would satisfy the concerns of those calling for an indef block but keep Winkelvi on wiki while providing both a preventative to his edit-warring (as desired by the plurarity -- the 0RR !voters) and to his talkpage bludgeoning, but still allowing him to improve and for the sanction to be ameliorated if he so chooses. This proposal addresses the major concerns of all parties, while still keeping him on wiki. I do not think an ArbCom case is necessary since if concerns are addressed and a consensus is agreed upon, a lengthy drawn-out and contentious ArbCom can be avoided. If you can think of a proposal likely to gain consensus which addresses the concerns of the majority, you can certainly propose it. My goal is to resolve, not to prolong, this dispute. Softlavender (talk) 02:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The original remedy is and was a 3 month block. The alternative was lifting the block with a 1RR restriction. Any proposal outside of that range is moot as the caustic process has driven moderates away. It is invalid as those that chose moderation have been beaten away with incessant attacks. We should be here discussing alternatives between those originally proposed and not piling on burdens that only Winkelvi's most ardent detractors were willing to continue participating. --DHeyward (talk) 02:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Assumes facts not in evidence. You cannot know why people are no longer participating here. Many editors prefer to state a position and move on. ―Mandruss☎ 03:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Which is exactly why canvassing views 7 days after the original sanction after many have given up is not valid. The community has moved on with no change. --DHeyward (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Resolving an ANI thread is always valid, especially when it can avoid an ArbCom case (in fact, ArbCom does not accept cases unless sufficient obvious forms of resolution have been attempted). No canvassing was done; however if anyone wants to neutrally ping every single person who has participated in this entire thread but not yet !voted on this compromise proposal, that would not be unwarranted and I don't think anyone would object. Softlavender (talk) 04:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Which is exactly why canvassing views 7 days after the original sanction after many have given up is not valid. The community has moved on with no change. --DHeyward (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The original remedy was indeed a 3-month block. The request for an unblock was declined by Laserbrain. Instead of filing another unblock request, Winkelvi ping-canvassed eight friendly admins. Of those eight, three of them, along with an admin known for their extreme leniency and cowboy unblocks and an admin with a longterm feud with the blocker, agreed upon a 1RR unblock condition, whereas at least two admins on the talkpage disagreed with that. The case was then brought here for review. Nothing is moot simply because you happen to disagree with it; there are plenty of moderates (including admins) here who advocated much stricter sanctions than those five non-neutral admins: (0RR [The Wordsmith, QEDK, Ealdgyth, Blackmane]; 0RR and continuation of the three-month block [Neutrality]; indef block [Cullen328, Calidum]) -- by the way those are "nopings"; I simply linked their usernames without pinging in case you don't recognize them. Softlavender (talk) 03:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Do those admins agree with your "facts" about their motivation? If not, the place to call admins "cowboy" or "feuding" is not here. They spoke, you ignored. That is not the hallmark of compromise. --DHeyward (talk) 03:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't listed motivations, only observable facts, and neither admin has denied these observable facts. "They spoke, you ignored. That is not the hallmark of compromise." I'm not sure what that means. I was not present in the talkpage discussions, nor do I have WV's talkpage on my watchlist. I have explained the facts of the case to you. The compromise I am seeking is the resolution of this ANI thread. Softlavender (talk) 03:57, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Softlavender, I suppose I am "friendly" with Winkelvi in the sense that I have civil discussions with him, and he's asked me for advice here and there. But if you think that makes me somehow not neutral, and if you think that therefore my opinion on the talk page proposal is null and void... well I don't quite know how to finish that sentence. I suppose, if I have to be neutral, objective, and trustworthy by what I think your definition is, I should be an asshole to everyone. In other words, I strongly object to tenor and content of your statement regarding the half-dozen admins, some of whom are among the most active and most respected (not me, but I can live with that--but Floq and Bish were in there, no? and Ritchie?) admins on the damn project. What you're proposing, between the lines, is the end of adminship: you talk with someone, you're not neutral/acceptable anymore. Drmies (talk) 16:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Drmies, apparently, you aren't really that objective at all on matters concerning Winkelvi. Care to explain this? Display name 99 (talk) 02:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Softlavender, I suppose I am "friendly" with Winkelvi in the sense that I have civil discussions with him, and he's asked me for advice here and there. But if you think that makes me somehow not neutral, and if you think that therefore my opinion on the talk page proposal is null and void... well I don't quite know how to finish that sentence. I suppose, if I have to be neutral, objective, and trustworthy by what I think your definition is, I should be an asshole to everyone. In other words, I strongly object to tenor and content of your statement regarding the half-dozen admins, some of whom are among the most active and most respected (not me, but I can live with that--but Floq and Bish were in there, no? and Ritchie?) admins on the damn project. What you're proposing, between the lines, is the end of adminship: you talk with someone, you're not neutral/acceptable anymore. Drmies (talk) 16:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't listed motivations, only observable facts, and neither admin has denied these observable facts. "They spoke, you ignored. That is not the hallmark of compromise." I'm not sure what that means. I was not present in the talkpage discussions, nor do I have WV's talkpage on my watchlist. I have explained the facts of the case to you. The compromise I am seeking is the resolution of this ANI thread. Softlavender (talk) 03:57, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Do those admins agree with your "facts" about their motivation? If not, the place to call admins "cowboy" or "feuding" is not here. They spoke, you ignored. That is not the hallmark of compromise. --DHeyward (talk) 03:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Assumes facts not in evidence. You cannot know why people are no longer participating here. Many editors prefer to state a position and move on. ―Mandruss☎ 03:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The original remedy is and was a 3 month block. The alternative was lifting the block with a 1RR restriction. Any proposal outside of that range is moot as the caustic process has driven moderates away. It is invalid as those that chose moderation have been beaten away with incessant attacks. We should be here discussing alternatives between those originally proposed and not piling on burdens that only Winkelvi's most ardent detractors were willing to continue participating. --DHeyward (talk) 02:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Close with no additional sanctions beyond 3 month block. The conduct did not become worse after the block. --DHeyward (talk) 04:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- What is that supposed to mean? He couldn't edit beyond his own talk page after the block. That's how blocks work. Display name 99 (talk) 10:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- It means what it means. If Winkelvi is supposed to be cast into outer darkness because of his personal behavior, he could have exhibited plenty of aspects of that behavior on his talk page. It's what purely disruptive editors do--and Winkelvi didn't. DHeyward, what is the world coming to, that I would agree with you--I suppose that also makes me non-neutral, and my opinion of no value... Drmies (talk) 16:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Drmies he basically called all of us pushing for more sanctions liars, and then refused to provide any evidence to support the statement. That seems disruptive to me. He also took a statement that I made and bolded certain parts of it to make it seem as though I hoped he would get an indefinite block after this discussion was over, although the statement was clearly referring to a hypothetical scenario in which Winkelvi continued to be disruptive even after being placed on a 0 RR. Display name 99 (talk) 22:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- It means what it means. If Winkelvi is supposed to be cast into outer darkness because of his personal behavior, he could have exhibited plenty of aspects of that behavior on his talk page. It's what purely disruptive editors do--and Winkelvi didn't. DHeyward, what is the world coming to, that I would agree with you--I suppose that also makes me non-neutral, and my opinion of no value... Drmies (talk) 16:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- What is that supposed to mean? He couldn't edit beyond his own talk page after the block. That's how blocks work. Display name 99 (talk) 10:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
IP close of a contentious RfC
| IP should not have closed RFC and certainly shouldn't have edit warred to keep it closed. Any changes to essay/info pages should be discussed on their talk pages. --NeilN talk to me 16:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The RfC at Wikipedia talk:User categories#Request for comment on our proposed policy for users remaining in redlinked categories was recently closed by an anonymous editor. That shouldn't be bad in itself. WP:NAC allows for editors in good standing to close such discussions, but the IP in question has a prior history containing only a single edit. Their close also weighs in so heavily on the extreme end of the range of opinions that were presented during the discussion, that it appears like little more than a humorous (tongue-in-cheek?) supervote. Their close has already been reverted by several different editors, but they go on reinstating it. – Uanfala (talk) 11:13, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
The IP, which is dynamic, is at 4RR on this.Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:18, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I wanted to talk about this in a venue like this, too.. but Uanfala was faster.
The problem here is evident: These editors persist on irregularly reverting a closure via reverts, to the point that we have to discuss this here instead of my talk page or WP:Adminstrators noticeboard itself. Closures should not be reverted if they aren't clear vandalism or similar. The reason is simple: If they could, then everyone could continue reverting until a closure is made they like, giving those editors who are more revert-happy an advantage. That is the reason why you must go via the closer's talk page and then ANI to get a consensus against the close, if it was indeed made in error. But the way these editors went is clearly disruptive to the process(but at least they don't seem to be bad faith actions).109.43.1.204 (talk) 11:38, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Whatever else, if you're really on 4RR I don't see how that falls under any exemption. Nil Einne (talk) 12:05, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Consensus and longstanding precedent support closes of non-contentious discussions by non-administrator editors in good standing. Is this an editor in good standing? Who, having never apparently attempted to close a discussion before nor even participated in project space at all before yesterday, just happened to decide to try their hand at closing a huge discussion with likely disruptive implications (concerning what all users can and cannot post on their own user pages)? Or is it an editor who participated in the discussion and is logging out to try to force a close that favours their opinion? Or a banned editor trying to disrupt the project? I don't know, I have no idea and neither does anyone who looks at this now or reviews the discussion later, but judging the outcomes of such controversial discussions is not a good situation for assuming good faith. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- And several editors have already observed that the close gives an air of bias, which I agree. Closes of controversial discussions where the motive of the closer is in question are not likely to be respected by the community. This should be re-closed by someone with a demonstrable history of closing controversial discussions. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- And what is exactly the reason for not discussing this with me and then, if necessary, at the noticeboard itself(as opposed to Incidents), but instead trying to force this by reverting? If you think that this decision really has an air of bias, then you can surely try to find and identify this bias and tell me or at least this venue what exactly is, in your opinion, the problem with this close. It does not create exceptional workload, it can show you that you imagine a bias that isn't there, or it can help in correcting the close and, if the case is indeed reopened, prevents a close that has these problems, if they indeed exist, to be made again. Reverting, on the other hand, does not help closing the debate at all. Experienced editors with an account and a history of good closings in controversial discussion apparently didn't close that discussion even when the debate slowed down, so I closed it instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.43.1.119 (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- And several editors have already observed that the close gives an air of bias, which I agree. Closes of controversial discussions where the motive of the closer is in question are not likely to be respected by the community. This should be re-closed by someone with a demonstrable history of closing controversial discussions. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- IPs (and inexperienced registered users) should never close contentious RFCs, and especially not RFCs about Wikipedia policy. Period. Such closes should always be made by admins and very experienced long-time registered users. - TomThomas.W talk 13:34, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Then find those admins and registered users with long-time activity and very high experience, and ask them to help with those closures. If there were enough extremely experienced registered users closing discussions in a normal time, I would probably not close those discussions. It doesn't seem like that though. If there aren't enough admins and very experienced registered users doing closures, then either someone else- like me- does that task or it is not done at all.109.43.1.119 (talk) 13:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- You'll likely find yourself blocked the next time you revert an admin re-opening your RFC close. --NeilNtalk to me 14:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is no good reason for me to revert that again anyways, we are discussing this right here. What I propose here is that the discussion is indeed reclosed, and that the complainants are directed to complain about the closure the usual way, and to use arguments in that discussion instead of unsourced and unexplained accusations like "It seems biased". However, someone else will look at this and decide, after the arguments come to a conclusion. So no, I won't revert again, but thanks for the warning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.43.0.140 (talk) 15:53, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- You'll likely find yourself blocked the next time you revert an admin re-opening your RFC close. --NeilNtalk to me 14:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Then find those admins and registered users with long-time activity and very high experience, and ask them to help with those closures. If there were enough extremely experienced registered users closing discussions in a normal time, I would probably not close those discussions. It doesn't seem like that though. If there aren't enough admins and very experienced registered users doing closures, then either someone else- like me- does that task or it is not done at all.109.43.1.119 (talk) 13:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- The arguments and actions of the reverters conflict with WP:NAC, which allows "any editor" to close RfC; both WP:NAC and WP:Closing discussions explicitely say that the reason that the closer is not an admin is NOT sufficient,
and they conflict with WP:Closing discussions, that sets the correct method of challenging closures; first discuss with the closer, and then, if necessary, go to WP:AN. Reverting closures without discussing and getting consensus at AN/with the author is wrong if there were any arguments provided beyond simple votecounting, and if the other usual exemptions don't apply(Vandalism, legal reasons...). There is a very good reason for all this: Reverting empowers editors to try to circumvent consensus until someone closes it the "right way", especially if consensus is determined to be with the minority of votes(because a large number of the majority votes were against policy/had no reasoning and/or core policies would be violated otherwise). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.43.0.140 (talk) 16:52, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Read the page you linked to (WP:NAC) again, especially the line that says
"Additionally, per this RfC, any non-admin close of an RfC should not be overturned if the only reason is that the closer was not an admin"
(my emphasis). Your close was reverted because of weighing in"so heavily on the extreme end of the range of opinions that were presented during the discussion, that it appears like little more than a humorous (tongue-in-cheek?) supervote"
(see first post in this thread), not because of being made by an IP. - Tom Thomas.W talk 17:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC) - Also adding that WP:NAC allows, in its second sentence, non-admin closes by "registered editors" (bold in the original text), not
any editor
. – Uanfala (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Furthermore WP:NAC makes it clear that discussions should be closed by someone with the appropriate experience, including experience of Wikipedia's policy and workings. If we're to believe that this IP isn't a sock then they apparently have few or no prior contributions at all. (And if they are a sock then they definitely should not be closing RfCs.) I don't think anyone's suggested that this discussion has to be closed by an admin but a contentious RfC on a guideline like this one does need to be closed by an admin or a non-admin experienced editor in good standing. And the IP should note that the fact that nobody who has commented thinks this closure was a good idea is a strong signal that such a result wouldn't be seen as acceptable. Hut 8.5 17:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Read the page you linked to (WP:NAC) again, especially the line that says
- I will agree with other editors here that the IP has been acting inappropriately in these edits. I am one of the editors who reverted, and I explained in my edit summary that the close was a supervote, so for the IP to complain that we all just reverted without explaining the problem is untrue and disingenuous. On the contrary, it has been the IP who was edit warring. It really was an outlandish close that did not reflect the actual discussion, calling among other things for editors who have unapproved categories on their user pages to have their user page editing access removed. And I also think that there is a clear smell of some blocked/banned but experienced user editing logged out. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- Note: The IP made this change to the Wikipedia:Non-admin closure essay, which brought me here. I don't believe that any IP should be closing a contentious RfC, especially considering all the socking that goes on at this site. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Infopage or essay, whatever. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- We probably should actually promote that page to guideline. We quote it and make decisions based on its advice as though it's policy. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:58, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I reverted the IP's edit at NAC. It is completely inappropriate to make such a change without first getting consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- And I have removed the passage in question, for several reasons. Essays and the like should not try to write policy, and there is as far as I can tell, nowhere in policy that says IPs can't close discussions. NACs are required to be non-controversial to begin with, and so, due to the presumably self-evident nature of the discussion and close, it shouldn't matter at all whether the editor is registered or not. If it does matter then it is probably not an uncontroversial close and thus probably shouldn't be an NAC regardless. In either circumstance the question of whether the editor is registered or not is immaterial.
- We should also be taking care in these conversation that we don't start quoting essays and infopages as if they are policy, because they aren't. TimothyJosephWood 17:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I really don't care what that essay says, and I will explain this further at the essay talk page, but all I did was restore the existing language. It wasn't me who changed anything. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I reverted the IP's edit at NAC. It is completely inappropriate to make such a change without first getting consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- We probably should actually promote that page to guideline. We quote it and make decisions based on its advice as though it's policy. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:58, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Comments repeatedly removed by another user from ITN nomination discussion
| The original matter seems to be resolved. Don't treat initial mistakes or ignorance of processes as disruptive. --NeilN talk to me 16:28, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An user with a different opinion about whether to post an article has twice removed a comment of mine about sourcing issues in a nomination. He has also posted a vandalism tag on my talk page. He has also struck out another user's comments previously. He appears to believe this is justified on the basis of my lack of civility, but he had made no effort to reach out to me to edit my comment while preserving my good-faith attempt to point out the sourcing issue with the article. He has also posted a ban tag on my talk page despite not having administrative rights.
Maybe I haven't read the ITN project guidelines clearly, but I believe this is a flagrant violation of standard project discussion guidelines.
I appreciate a quick admin response, to both of us, to clarify how this should progress. I'm happy to rewrite a more constructive comment on that discussion page, but I'm not doing it because someone decided to plaster vandalism templates onto my talk page with TW for a project page discussion comment. This feels like an attempt to harass some anonymous poster out of not posting a comment on the awful sources on their pet article.
link of first edit 73.61.16.86 (talk) 13:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I informed you on your user talk page after also removing your post, the proper venue for complaints about a nomination once it is posted is WP:ERRORS. Further, your complaints seem to have to do with the content of the article itself- which if you dispute it, should be discussed on that article's talk page. No one has posted a "ban tag" to your page, but warnings, which anyone can do. 331dot (talk) 13:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I missed your second comment because Luke was too busy spamming TW tags on my talk page. My apology.
- I'm still confused. Was the problem that I simply posted in the wrong avenue, or was there a civility issue? The other user's comments are ambiguous about this. I didn't think WP:ERRORS was the correct page to post it, as it requires a verified error, whereas the problem with the original posting was that the central claim to significance is completely unverifiable.
- As for going to that article's talk page - to be frank, I don't have much faith with finding an effective resolution on that article's talk page because there's another user has been edit warring in that article and repeatedly inserting unreliable sources in a disingenuous way. example. The quality and accuracy of that article seems obviously bad enough that it merits an immediate removal from ITN. I'm also simply not involved enough on Wikipedia anymore to want to waste 2 hours with a drawn-out conflict resolution process against some experienced user who is trying to push an agenda. This shit is why some of us left in the first place. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please. I didn't remove your comments because of a difference in opinion; I removed them because they contained strong and unnecessary profanity, as well as being better suited at WP:ERRORS, which I did state in the first warning that you proceeded to ignore. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 14:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Is profanity a legitimate reason to remove another talk page comment, and is it a legitimate factor in deciding whether a talk page comment constitutes vandalism (if that's even possible)? I'm not asking rhetorically, I want an admin to clarify whether I've completely misunderstood basic guidelines for a decade. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unnecessary profanity can amount to offensive content, which is against the rules. The usage of the template was justified. I generally don't use the specific templates but rather the generic vandalism template, so I hope that this clears up any confusion. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 15:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree with your premise that it is, under any circumstances, appropriate for a user involved in a talk page discussion to remove another user's comments out of a personal perception of "unnecessary profanity". I don't have a particular interest in continuing this dispute, as I've stopped using Wikipedia formally for years, but this seems like such an absurd breach of etiquette to me that I want an admin to weigh in on whether this is indeed permissible.
- I also suggest you follow WP:AGF and try not to use vandalism tags for content-related or policy-related disputes. I'll in turn follow the same principle and assume you weren't aware that this is not the intended use of either those tags, or of Twinkle as an anti-vandalism tool. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- sigh... @NeilN:, can you look at this to satisfy this user's request for administrative action? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unnecessary profanity can amount to offensive content, which is against the rules. The usage of the template was justified. I generally don't use the specific templates but rather the generic vandalism template, so I hope that this clears up any confusion. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 15:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Is profanity a legitimate reason to remove another talk page comment, and is it a legitimate factor in deciding whether a talk page comment constitutes vandalism (if that's even possible)? I'm not asking rhetorically, I want an admin to clarify whether I've completely misunderstood basic guidelines for a decade. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please. I didn't remove your comments because of a difference in opinion; I removed them because they contained strong and unnecessary profanity, as well as being better suited at WP:ERRORS, which I did state in the first warning that you proceeded to ignore. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 14:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I should add that this edit is a really egregious example of what had happened in that discussion. Let me clarify the context for people who are confused: 1. multiple sources agree that a mosque had been hit by an air strike; 2. the U.S. released a statement that they had an air strike on a nearby location, but specifically denies hitting the mosque; 3. this user wants to write "the U.S. admits hitting the mosque" in both the ITN stub and in the article, and his justification is "Do you really think the US would admit to a mistake?" 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would say that an article posted with incorrect or invalid sourcing would qualify as an error. I would also say that if your post didn't contain 'how the fuck' in it I might have left it and posted what I put on your talk page there instead, but I didn't see a need to leave the vulgarity.
- If you don't have faith in using the article talk page, that's something only you can decide, but talk page discussion is how things are done here. There are other dispute resolution procedures available to you if your concerns are not properly discussed. 331dot (talk) 14:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I won't be pursuing a dispute resolution process against an experienced user who is clearly trying to weasel a fabricated statement into the front page with extremely disingenuous original research and edit warring. The edit I linked above, and his contributions page, is more than enough to demonstrate what has happened. If you don't find that problematic, it's up to you, but I'm not wasting more time to help this piss-poor project while the two of you are too preoccupied with policing vulgarity instead of fixing the egregious soapboxing on a current front page article. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel that way. This whole effort is only as good as the people who participate. If you choose not to participate, that is your right, but then that limits how far you can advance the goals that you seek. I assume you are aware of this since you state you have been here for a decade and it would seem that all those efforts are not from the IP you are using currently. 331dot (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- If by "the whole effort" you're referring to my concern over the quality of 2017 al-Jina mosque airstrike, then not many of you have been participating; nor were some of you paying sufficient attention during its ITN nomination stage. Your argument amounts to asking me if I'm willing to fix the article, wrestle it away from someone who has clearly not been editing that page in good faith, and/or try to get it removed from the front page because it is so clearly a violation of policies on reliable sourcing, soapboxing, and copyright.
- And no, that's not something I am willing to do. Here's a better suggestion: before that nomination closed, the two of you could have spent 5 minutes looking at that page, realize that it has a source that has never been cited on politics/news on wikipedia as a reliable source, or just read the comments from the article creator who was discussing his own conjectures about what happened during the discussion of the nomination itself. At that point, write "oppose", explain the rationale cogently, and maybe we wouldn't have had a trash article with fabricated claims on the front page for more than a day. But instead, you've dedicated most of your attention to policing my single use of the word "fuck" in a discussion comment. Let me clarify: I'm not whining here because I think I'm a victim, I'm whining here because some of you clearly enjoy spending more effort on meta/community edits and templating other users rather than taking an easy opportunity to fix completely broken content in a front page article, and are still lecturing to me about my effort. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Some of those sourcing issues in that article have been fixed by another editor and I, but you two are free to go help. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You know, you could have read the warning templates left by me and one by 331 stating that you should go to WP:ERRORS instead of ranting and raving in the nominations' section. If there is an error, then you go to the error page. You don't voice your unhappiness at the candidate page. Also, I don't think you understand that unwarranted profanity falls under offensive content. This is a violation of Wikipedia policy. You can be banned for saying 'fuck' without reason. You can't say it in a menacing or offensive tone. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @331dot: - Should the IP reveal their account or is this unorthodox? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 15:33, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @UNSC Luke 1021: I'm not sure if they have an account or not (they could be using a floating IP); I was simply reiterating what they said combined with what is visible in their edit history. 331dot (talk) 15:36, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel that way. This whole effort is only as good as the people who participate. If you choose not to participate, that is your right, but then that limits how far you can advance the goals that you seek. I assume you are aware of this since you state you have been here for a decade and it would seem that all those efforts are not from the IP you are using currently. 331dot (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I won't be pursuing a dispute resolution process against an experienced user who is clearly trying to weasel a fabricated statement into the front page with extremely disingenuous original research and edit warring. The edit I linked above, and his contributions page, is more than enough to demonstrate what has happened. If you don't find that problematic, it's up to you, but I'm not wasting more time to help this piss-poor project while the two of you are too preoccupied with policing vulgarity instead of fixing the egregious soapboxing on a current front page article. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- As for going to that article's talk page - to be frank, I don't have much faith with finding an effective resolution on that article's talk page because there's another user has been edit warring in that article and repeatedly inserting unreliable sources in a disingenuous way. example. The quality and accuracy of that article seems obviously bad enough that it merits an immediate removal from ITN. I'm also simply not involved enough on Wikipedia anymore to want to waste 2 hours with a drawn-out conflict resolution process against some experienced user who is trying to push an agenda. This shit is why some of us left in the first place. 73.61.16.86 (talk) 14:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@331dot: - Can we close this discussion? The IP seems to have left Wikipedia entirely and no new responses are occurring. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 17:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Responding to an edit summary that mentioned me: A user posting a valid concern to the wrong page by mistake or ignorance is not disruptive. I can still remember being a newbie and posting messages to user pages instead of talk pages a few times. If I had been plonked with increasing levels of disruptive warning templates then I might have concluded Wikipedia was a pretty hostile place and acted accordingly. Instead, I received non-templated messages telling me the proper place to post and moving the posts for me (even after I did this a couple times). Sometimes, a message without a template makes the message clearer. As for the profanity, content posted on the main page often causes strong feelings to occur so the occasional "WTF?!" is understandable. --NeilN talk to me 19:17, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @NeilN: - I just want to point out that the IP states above that he's been here for a decade, so I don't think WP:NEWBIE applies here. But yes, I will take your advice in the future. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 20:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @UNSC Luke 1021: Thanks. As a matter of fact yesterday was the first time I did some admin work at ITN and it took me a good ten minutes and a pointer from an editor to figure out how some of the things worked over there. --NeilN talk to me 20:55, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Coda
| I don't know if the main thread should be archived or not, but this subthread is probably no longer useful. Thanks for noticing, User:Yngvadottir. Further discussion is probably better at Luke's talk page; the last thing we need is a reason for him to post to a noticeboard to reply to stuff. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- I think there needs to be a coda here. @UNSC Luke 1021: on January 21 you were blocked by JzG in the spirit of a suggestion by Floquenbeam to give you one last chance to avoid an indef or a site ban. Floquenbeam's proposal, which you were strongly advised to adhere to, included your not posting at AN/I, yet I see you active in 3 or 4 sections above, and here you responded again when the IP specifically requested admin input, and then called for the section to be closed. Floquenbeam's proposed conditions also specifically excluded you from Main Page discussions, yet this situation arose because you removed the IP's post at a Main Page discussion venue (and, as stated above by NeilN, you were wrong in categorizing the IP's edits there are disruptive; I'd go further and say that your reaction to use of the "f" word was a violation of WP:TALK). These proposed restrictions were to have lasted for 3 months. It's only been two. Have I missed a community decision or the successful conclusion of a mentorship? Why is Luke spending all this time at noticeboards, treating the IP badly and generally ignoring the conditions on which he was spared indef or a ban? Yngvadottir (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd forgotten about that. The ANI thread in question is here: [154]. Luke shouldn't be doing any of this editing until May. He explicitly agreed to these conditions in the linked thread. JzG went out on a bit of a limb, there was frankly consensus for an indef block and JzG showed some mercy. I'm not amused that this is being taken advantage of like this. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- A review of his edits shows that he never stopped contributing to main page discussions (started back up 2 days after his block expired on 4 February), or AFD (started up same day it expired) and started in an ANI again early March (1 month, not 3 months, after block expired), and NPOVN and UAA before that, around mid-February. (I'm not counting AIV because I'm frankly willing to overlook vandalism reports, although that was technically not allowed either). I can't explain why no one called him on it; I, for one, simply never noticed, and when I did it didn't register. I think I may have actually interacted with him at ITN/C in February, and just forgot. Harder to understand is how Luke forgot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Fuck. @Floquenbeam: - I was unaware that stuff like UAA was off-limits. I did not read carefully when I looked at your proposal and did not recognize that ITN and NPOVN was off-limits as well. I just screwed up by coming to AN/I, although that hasn't begun until a few days ago. I won't deflect the blame anywhere else; I fucked up. However, I don't know why I should be punished for this (even though I am fully aware that I should be blocked for this). I haven't ever had trouble at ITN until now, I was only at NPOVN once because I wasn't sure if a problem was occurring (which I handled calmly and respectfully), I was totally unaware that UAA and AIV were against the rules of my agreement, and I have only been coming to AN/I for about four or five days. I haven't been mistreating this IP, and I know that 331dot was doing the same thing without being called out by you. I haven't been cursing or attacking or anything. I haven't accused anybody of anything. I think saying that I've been mistreating this IP is an extreme exaggeration. However, I was not trying to take advantage of anything and I was the one who fucked up by going to these places. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 21:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- A review of his edits shows that he never stopped contributing to main page discussions (started back up 2 days after his block expired on 4 February), or AFD (started up same day it expired) and started in an ANI again early March (1 month, not 3 months, after block expired), and NPOVN and UAA before that, around mid-February. (I'm not counting AIV because I'm frankly willing to overlook vandalism reports, although that was technically not allowed either). I can't explain why no one called him on it; I, for one, simply never noticed, and when I did it didn't register. I think I may have actually interacted with him at ITN/C in February, and just forgot. Harder to understand is how Luke forgot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'd forgotten about that. The ANI thread in question is here: [154]. Luke shouldn't be doing any of this editing until May. He explicitly agreed to these conditions in the linked thread. JzG went out on a bit of a limb, there was frankly consensus for an indef block and JzG showed some mercy. I'm not amused that this is being taken advantage of like this. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- The IP's treatment appears to have been resolved above; or, at least, is the least of your worries. You agreed to the following in order to avoid an indef block/ban:
| Quote from January ANI, very important parts in bold |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- So effective immediately, follow the restrictions you agreed to. Or the deferred indef block will probably be reinstated. They are in effect until May 4th. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: - So... Is there anything I can do to prevent myself from getting into more trouble and keeping this from going to ANI? Anything you can suggest? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- ? it's at ANI now. But my best suggestion is to do what you agreed to do, which I helpfully highlighted in bold inside the hat immediately above: A 3 month ban on non-article related edits. So the following would be OK: articles, talk pages, Wikiproject pages about articles (like, for example, WP:MILHIST and WP:TANKS), your own talk page. The following would not be OK: ANI, RFA, XFD, Main page discussions, Wikiproject pages where you get involved in arguments, etc. ... a ban on editing your userpage too. Only work on articles. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: - So is AIV and UAA off the table? I do most of my work there. All the other stuff will go away until May 4 (or June 23, depending on if the timer resets). No ITN, ANI, NPOV, SPI, user page or anything not stated otherwise. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- (/Floq allows a feeling of exasperation to wash over him for a moment/) Why are you asking that? Do AIV and UAA have anything to do with only working on articles? Yes, they are off the table. You agreed to only work on articles. Keep to that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Luke, basically anything that you can get to by typing WP:(insert redirect name) into the search window is off limits. That includes all of the noticeboards (AN, ANI, AIV, ANEW, ArbCom, UAA, NPOVN, RSN, DRN, etc), policy pages, guideline pages, template pages, CSD/AFD/MFD. Basically anything that is related to the administration of Wikipedia is off limits. Blackmane (talk) 01:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: - So is AIV and UAA off the table? I do most of my work there. All the other stuff will go away until May 4 (or June 23, depending on if the timer resets). No ITN, ANI, NPOV, SPI, user page or anything not stated otherwise. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- ? it's at ANI now. But my best suggestion is to do what you agreed to do, which I helpfully highlighted in bold inside the hat immediately above: A 3 month ban on non-article related edits. So the following would be OK: articles, talk pages, Wikiproject pages about articles (like, for example, WP:MILHIST and WP:TANKS), your own talk page. The following would not be OK: ANI, RFA, XFD, Main page discussions, Wikiproject pages where you get involved in arguments, etc. ... a ban on editing your userpage too. Only work on articles. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: - So... Is there anything I can do to prevent myself from getting into more trouble and keeping this from going to ANI? Anything you can suggest? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- So effective immediately, follow the restrictions you agreed to. Or the deferred indef block will probably be reinstated. They are in effect until May 4th. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
@Floquenbeam: - I just want to clear up any lasting confusion here.
- This TBANish thing wears off on May 4th or June 23rd (because of timer reset from ANI excluding this discussion)?
- My user page is off limits (like the exact page this links to)?
- Anti-vandalism is disallowed entirely, or just going out of my way to stop it (excluding obvious vandalism that I find by chance)?
- I cannot participate in any AFD, including articles I have extensively worked on or created (such as Astroneer or Battle of Raseiniai, for argument's sake)?
Sorry if these questions sound somewhat moronic, but I just want explicit clarification so I can avoid yet another incident. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 01:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- No disrespect, but what is the point of this boundary-pushing? Your instruction was four words long, and in boldface: Only work on articles.
- Anti-vandalism is disallowed entirely<Facepalm> If you see vandalism, remove it, like every other editor. --Calton Talk 08:14, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Have to agree with Calton here - if you have any question about whether something is allowed or not, consider it NOT allowed. That's the safest way. Just don't edit anything not in article space and you'll be safe. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:09, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Here's the most important question in my opinion: Did the timer reset (does the TBAN wear off on May 4 or June 23?) I don't want to go back to ITN on May 4th just to get myself even deeper in the hole by finding out it wears off on June 23rd. Last question. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 12:15, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- UNSC Luke, they are in effect until May 4th, 2017 per Floquenbeam;
So effective immediately, follow the restrictions you agreed to. Or the deferred indef block will probably be reinstated. They are in effect until May 4th
. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:41, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- UNSC Luke, they are in effect until May 4th, 2017 per Floquenbeam;
@UNSC Luke 1021: I didn't really sign up to be your boss. These aren't restrictions I'm imposing, they're restrictions you agreed to in order to avoid an indef block. But since I seem to have morphed into this role:
- I originally said 4 May above, as that would be 3 months since the unblock, but the more I think about it: since you've essentially never followed these restrictions, I hesitate to allow them to expire in just over a month. 23 June makes more sense. So yes, contrary to what I said above, they expire on 23 June. Thank you for clarifying.
- Participation at an AFD someone else initiates on an article you've been involved in creating is fine; it's part of content work. But I would anticipate that would be very infrequent. But no starting AFDs yourself, and no participation in AFDs of articles you haven't been involved in extensively.
- Tell you what, I'll protect your user page to remove the temptation.
- AIV reports and user warnings about vandalism to articles you've been involved in are OK, but I would anticipate it would be very infrequent; just vandalism you see in the normal course of article work, on articles you have edited for content. Vandalism patrolling is not OK.
--Floquenbeam (talk) 14:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: Regarding "I'll protect your user page to remove the temptation." I agree with NeilN at RFPP that this is counter productive - Luke should be proving that he can avoid the temptation himself, not be technically forced to adhere to the conditions. If we wanted we could create an edit filter to stop him editing anything but articles, but frankly that wouldn't be very useful for allowing him to show that his behaviour has changed. Sam Walton (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- We have two goals here: demonstration that he can avoid temptation, but more importantly (IMHO), instilling good habits. Obviously he isn't disrupting anything by editing his userpage, it's just we want him to get used to doing productive work, and not fiddling with his userpage all day for 3 months until the restrictions lapse. I'd be more than satisfied that he's shown he can avoid temptation if he stays away from AN/ANI/AIV/AFD/ITN/etc. I think we can do him this small favor. I hadn't seen the request and decline at RFPP, so sorry about that NeilN. But my own thought is to leave it in place. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Whatever is decided is fine with me. --NeilN talk to me 15:26, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- We have two goals here: demonstration that he can avoid temptation, but more importantly (IMHO), instilling good habits. Obviously he isn't disrupting anything by editing his userpage, it's just we want him to get used to doing productive work, and not fiddling with his userpage all day for 3 months until the restrictions lapse. I'd be more than satisfied that he's shown he can avoid temptation if he stays away from AN/ANI/AIV/AFD/ITN/etc. I think we can do him this small favor. I hadn't seen the request and decline at RFPP, so sorry about that NeilN. But my own thought is to leave it in place. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Since his response to this thread has been to open a Peer Review on an article on which he's never previously edited, as far as I'm concerned AGF has well and truly expired here. I'd support a community ban if there's a single further WP: space edit from him outside the narrow parameters defined by Floquenbeam above. ‑ Iridescent 18:57, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I opened a PR on that article so I can get information on how to improve it. It isn't up to GA but I don't know what to fix. I want to improve this article when I receive feedback. I don't see how I'm causing a problem by requesting some review from peers. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to open a peer review because it will help me in the articlespace. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 19:04, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Luke, this is how you get blocked from Wikipedia. How many times do people have to tell you to edit NOTHING but articles before you understand. What you did is not an article. Stop editing outside of articles. It's very likely that you have already done enough damage to warrant the community block being instated, but on the absolutely slim chance that you manage to avoid that, I'm offering you this advice. STOP. EDITING. ANYTHING. BUT. ARTICLES. PERIOD. --Tarage (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Stephen removing image with no basis in policy
| Matter settled amicably. --NeilN talk to me 16:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
ChoreographerTrisha Brown recently died. As part of working on her article, I searched for a free image to add to it, having also done so in the past, but was unable, again, to find one. As part of the most recent search I utilized Google images, Flickr, the NYPL Digital collection, and the Library of Congress Digital collection. Unable to find a free image, and the subject now being deceased, I added a non-free photograph File:Trisha Brown.jpg to the infobox, a headshot reduced from a full-body shot. The image is properly rationaled, and, because the subject is now dead, there is no possibility of a new free image of the person being created.
Admin User:Stephen has continuously removed the image, on the grounds that an adequate search was not performed for a free image. I'm not sure how, exactly, Stephen knows how much or how little of a search I performed, nor how much searching took place in the past, but in any case, as far as I am aware there is no pre-set time required for a free-image search before a non-free image can be used, so Stephen's removal is both unsupported by policy, and out of process, as we have a procedure for discussion of non-free images.
I request that an admin inform Stephen that he should stop his removal of the image from the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:32, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- While AGF that you did, can you point to where you've tried to document what image searching you've done before her death? For NFC images after death, we usually want editors to wait roughly 3 months to allow an appropriate free search to be done (including if possible approaching friends and family after a period of mourning); however, if you can readily demonstrate the search for free images in the past without luck, that time period can be made much shorter. There is an element of AGF, and here, BMK is a long-established editor that seems well aware of NFC so that AGF has significant weight, but in Stephen's shoes, I don't see anything on the talk page to assume an image search had been done in the past, which is why if you had documented past efforts, that would give more strength to the argument to shorten the wait. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please point out where in policy it requires a 3 month waiting period or documentation of the search. And how, for heaven's sake, am supposed to "document" my actions? In any case, point me to policy please, or WMF instructions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:20, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:NFCI#10 presently says a month but current discussion and general past practice has been closer to 3. And the aspect of documentation is something under current discussion too, as to help editors shorten this period. You could have documented it by having a comment at the talk page "Anyone have a free image of this person? I've at X,Y, Z with no luck...".
- The whole point of this period is to avoid lazy editors that simply think "Person is dead = no chance of making a non-free = can use non-free immediately". We need editors to be a bit more aggressive in searching out free images before resorting to non-free, because often you can find free images in other atypical places that existed before death. And while we can't force editors to contact copyright holders, or copyright holders to license works freely, this is still a step that should be encouraged. Hence why the waiting period to encourage editors to go seek out those images. They may, they may not, but it avoids rushing to include non-free just because the person died. That's why if you have noted previously that you tried to search for free and failed, that's a valid reason to keep.
- Now I'm not saying Stephen's in the right here. We don't want to encourage hard numbers here (as soon as you do that for NFC, it is gamed from lessons from the past), but Stephen seems to be enforcing just that. That's why I think in this case, with your veteran experience, we need to AGF that you did prior searches before the death with no luck; it would have been helpful if that was documented to make it a very clear case in favor of retaining the picture, but I still think it should be kept here. But this is an atypical case given that we are talking an experienced editor reporting their failure in finding free images. Newer editors generally do not have the history to demonstrate that they've reasonably tried. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification, I was unaware of the 1 month period in NFCC #10 (I don't know if that's new or not), although I was aware of the discussion of making a 3-month period, since I commented in the discussion. And I don't want it to seem that I am married to this image or any non-free image - if someone better at searching then I can find a usable free image, I'm fine with using it, unless it's of such terrible quality that it demeans the subject and the page. As for my prior search, I don't think I can document it, as I didn't make any edits to the article at that time. (It's not unusual for me to search for free images when an infobox of a prominent person is empty.)Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also, good idea to post on the talk page when I'm unable to find a free image, I'll do so from now on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Given how pendantic some NFC-handling admins are, that's probably a good action, but again, I do want to stress the need that such admins should consider the editor that has added the image and consider AGF that a search had been done, particularly if they are a major contributor to the article. If this was a random IP adding the same image, sure Stephen's actions are completely legit. Here, it's more vague but I would definitely support inclusion at this point. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also, good idea to post on the talk page when I'm unable to find a free image, I'll do so from now on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Aye, the problem has been certain editors trawling through recent deaths and adding any old non-free image to their articles without any attempt to locate a free image. At least BMK did attempt to do so. Black Kite (talk) 19:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- That I did, and if anyone has any leads, I will continue to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) It might also be helpful if you posted a request at WP:RI or c:COM:RI or maybe even on the talk pages of relevant WikiProjects. Most of the WikiProject banner templates have a parameter "needs_photo" or something similar which can be used too. Part of WP:NFCC#1 is not just that you are unable to reasonably find/create a free equivalent, but that others are also unable to do such a thing. If it can be shown that you have actively tried to get others involved in the search and nobody has been able to find a free image, then justification for non-free use becomes stronger. I'm not trying to restart the kerfuffle at Talk:Jane Morgan#Restarting the discussion, but that probably could've been avoided if an effort had been made to get others involved in the search for a free equivalent at an earlier stage. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hear what you're saying, but I've never had anyone remove a non-free image that I've added to an article about a dead person. Your suggestions are good ones, though, and I will keep them in mind. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) It might also be helpful if you posted a request at WP:RI or c:COM:RI or maybe even on the talk pages of relevant WikiProjects. Most of the WikiProject banner templates have a parameter "needs_photo" or something similar which can be used too. Part of WP:NFCC#1 is not just that you are unable to reasonably find/create a free equivalent, but that others are also unable to do such a thing. If it can be shown that you have actively tried to get others involved in the search and nobody has been able to find a free image, then justification for non-free use becomes stronger. I'm not trying to restart the kerfuffle at Talk:Jane Morgan#Restarting the discussion, but that probably could've been avoided if an effort had been made to get others involved in the search for a free equivalent at an earlier stage. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- That I did, and if anyone has any leads, I will continue to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification, I was unaware of the 1 month period in NFCC #10 (I don't know if that's new or not), although I was aware of the discussion of making a 3-month period, since I commented in the discussion. And I don't want it to seem that I am married to this image or any non-free image - if someone better at searching then I can find a usable free image, I'm fine with using it, unless it's of such terrible quality that it demeans the subject and the page. As for my prior search, I don't think I can document it, as I didn't make any edits to the article at that time. (It's not unusual for me to search for free images when an infobox of a prominent person is empty.)Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please point out where in policy it requires a 3 month waiting period or documentation of the search. And how, for heaven's sake, am supposed to "document" my actions? In any case, point me to policy please, or WMF instructions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:20, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Mlpearc
| Seems resolved. El_C 02:18, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It seems that this user is beginning to spy-gate on me, and is giving me nearly-fake warnings, thinking that my edits are nonconstructive. For example, I updated a college career with Juju Smith-Schuster with all of its up-to-date college stats, and Mlpearc reverted it without even specifying a single reason. It just comes to show that these users can spy on you and revert your edits for no reason at all. If you could please, could you look into this case? SportsLair (talk) 01:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- The editor explained the reason to you, and you have not attempted to discuss it with the editor, AFAICT. You may learn about a boomerang soon.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sometimes, victims refuse their rights to discuss with those who give out warnings as this may lead to tensions and confusion. Even if one reverts one edit, it can monitor or spy on that user for a temporary period of time, which could possibly violate the Terms of Use. SportsLair (talk) 01:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Actually it is well within policy to look over an editor's contributions if a common mistake is found, yours being unsourced content. That is not him acting as a "spy". By the way, Wikipedia is a collaborative project so ignoring others is not the best option.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sometimes, victims refuse their rights to discuss with those who give out warnings as this may lead to tensions and confusion. Even if one reverts one edit, it can monitor or spy on that user for a temporary period of time, which could possibly violate the Terms of Use. SportsLair (talk) 01:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Administrator note What proof is there of wikihounding? This dosen't really seem to rise to the level of an ANI report. Mlpearc could maybe have spoken plainly to SportsLair instead of relying on templates—and SportsLair should had cited their sources from the outset, certainly after requested. Not much more to this that I could see. El_C 01:42, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apparently that's not it - Mlpearc (open channel) 01:46, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK, I will explain the truth. I missed adding sources on some of the articles, but here's the real thing. Sometimes, it's OK to complete an edit without citing a source, but in other cases, a rollbacker will strike, revert your edit, and leave you with a warning. Sometimes, these users can overlook on your contributions to see if you didn't cite any sources, but it may not always be a good idea, as this maybe considered tampering or spying, and it doesn't always good faith. SportsLair (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- It's not "OK to complete an edit without citing a source" if the edit is challenged, and it's not spying or wikihounding to challenge an unsourced edit. Sundayclose (talk) 02:00, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK, I will explain the truth. I missed adding sources on some of the articles, but here's the real thing. Sometimes, it's OK to complete an edit without citing a source, but in other cases, a rollbacker will strike, revert your edit, and leave you with a warning. Sometimes, these users can overlook on your contributions to see if you didn't cite any sources, but it may not always be a good idea, as this maybe considered tampering or spying, and it doesn't always good faith. SportsLair (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apparently that's not it - Mlpearc (open channel) 01:46, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
....sigh....I...I guess it's true....that you cannot always edit cleanly without citing a source. Then the whole thing...of all what came down here is all my damn fault. I didn't mean to post this discussion since the first place. I only wanted...no, I can't say it anymore. I'm done for. I guess we'll have to call this discussion off. But if anything else happens, I will gladly let you guys know. Until then, take care. SportsLair (talk) 02:09, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Impersonation account
| It's two self explanatory lines, just read them. Indef block administered. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:46, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:DangerousJXD2 needs to be blocked. Longtime troll whose current gimmick is impersonation accounts. —DangerousJXD (talk) 08:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Done. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Another imposter
| Blocked, though I'm sure this vandal will be back with more socks. They have already been at it for months. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 20:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:DangerousJXD3 is again an imposter of User:DangerousJXD. Previous #impersonation account was blocked not too long ago. Nickag989talk 15:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
User making legal threats
| Blocked, but unblocking is conditionally possible. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 20:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Greetings, hopefully I've chosen the correct venue for this - if not, please point out the correct one. Anyway, this diff was just posted by AppleStudio, seemingly an account with a Conflict of Interest. Regards Exemplo347 (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked, uw-lblock left on the user page. As always, any admin can unblock if the legal threat is unconditionally retracted or if the user completes their legal action. --Yamla (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
User:SummerPhDv2.0/Wikipediholism trolling
| SLITHERIOFAN2016 SITE BANNED BY THE COMMUNITY | |
| The community consensus is clear: The person using the account SlitherioFan2016 (talk · contribs) - their associated sockpuppets, and all of the IP addresses listed here - is hereby banned from making any edit, anywhere on Wikipedia, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances, indefinitely. This ban is subject to the standard offer, and may only be appealed to the Arbitration Committee prior to the offer's effective date (6 months after their last known attempt to evade their block). — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC) | |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Prior case: [155]
Summary: Over the past three years, this editor has been blocked at least 30 times (that I found...), evading each one. In the last AN/I case, their non-answer answers basically said: "Gee, maybe I didn't make all of those edits."
A brief rangeblock, a sock case finding they might or might not be another long-term vandal followed, with a month long range block.[156] More nonsense soon followed.
Yamla feels they are de facto banned.[157] I think it's time to make it official. - SummerPhDv2.0 13:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support official ban obviously. --Yamla (talk) 13:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Ban - Enough is enough. If a user is blocked over 30 times with countless sockpuppets, they've obviously never been here. Get them out. (Side note: originally I thought we were trying to ban SummerPhD, which made me go 'wtf' for a few seconds.) UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 14:17, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support official ban Pretty obvious here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Simple as that. Lectonar (talk) 14:21, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support the community has exercised sufficient patience. Lepricavark (talk) 14:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Thirty times?(!) This one has slipped through the cracks. El_C 14:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - easy call. They have no business being here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - We've done all we can as a community. If you know me well, then you know that I'm usually
the one persona person that asks to help and mentor someone - even when nobody else will. In this case, we've exhausted all options and we've given this user many more chances than most others. Unfortunately, it's time to say goodbye. :-( ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC) - Comment - Is this some sockpuppetry world record? Most socks used by a single editor? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - I suspect he may be the IP that randomly appears on my talk page every so often asking who is allowed to post on my talk page. Thankfully it seems people are watching it, as it often quickly gets reverted. Needless to say, I'm not sure what's wrong with this person, but they obviously have no interest in being a net gain to the project. --Tarage (talk) 18:27, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Actually Oshwah, you're not the only one. I do the same thing. But I'm with the flow on this one. I've ran into this joker before. Support the ban. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:29, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- HA, you're right. Sorry... I didn't mean any kind of implication with my comment above. There are a lot of good helpers on Wikipedia; unfortunately, this person cannot be helped. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I would also like to point out for the record that this editor in question also tried to play vandal and counter vandal with himself, creating both JB1213 and Mali1702 in an attempt to create a fake sockpuppet for banned user JordanBaumann1211, and then reporting said sockpuppet with the other account, I guess in some twisted attempt to make one sock look like a legitimate editor? Either way the checkuser caught it, but this is the level of abuse we are talking about. --Tarage (talk) 18:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Tarage: - This isn't your everyday sockpuppetry, this is... advanced sockpuppetry. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 18:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - A no-brainer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Blocks for the sock-clown who vandalises my talk page in revenge for what i did for Betty Logan? Where do I sign? L3X1 (distant write) 22:35, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - Better late than never. Jusdafax 22:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment How is this going to solve the problem? He's an IP hopper, so unless your going to indef all his IPs (not cricket, I hear) Slitherio will just go buy a new one, and for my An/I it was said that a rangeblock couldn't happen, because 25% of the world would be affected. L3X1(distant write) 22:58, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know where you're getting this from, L3X1. I've personally range blocked this vandal twice, and I'll probably do it again if this passes. Maybe later I'll write an essay about IP addresses, range blocks, and how they work, because there seems to be a bit of confusion. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- NinjaRobotPirate I would love to read that essay. You can't possibly rangeblock all of them; they're too far apart. A rangeblock requires us to specify a range of addresses that must all be blocked, and the only way we could block all of them is blocking all addresses that begin with numbers from 58 to 121 — that's 64 of the possible 256 numbers in the first group, i.e. literally a quarter of all extant IPv4 addresses. Nyttend (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2017 (UTC) is where I got it. L3X1(distant write) 00:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has a few scattered pages that explain these concepts, but I was never really satisfied with them. Well, I finally made stab at it: User:NinjaRobotPirate/IP editors. It's way too technical, but I guess it's not horrible for a first draft. In my head, it was a lot more accessible, but when I started writing, it came out like a rehash of Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses. Oh well. I hope it makes some degree of sense. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- NinjaRobotPirate I would love to read that essay. You can't possibly rangeblock all of them; they're too far apart. A rangeblock requires us to specify a range of addresses that must all be blocked, and the only way we could block all of them is blocking all addresses that begin with numbers from 58 to 121 — that's 64 of the possible 256 numbers in the first group, i.e. literally a quarter of all extant IPv4 addresses. Nyttend (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2017 (UTC) is where I got it. L3X1(distant write) 00:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know where you're getting this from, L3X1. I've personally range blocked this vandal twice, and I'll probably do it again if this passes. Maybe later I'll write an essay about IP addresses, range blocks, and how they work, because there seems to be a bit of confusion. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Indeed, better late than never. Blackmane (talk) 01:57, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support per all the rational comments above. This is a no-brainer snowstorm. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support official site-ban. Softlavender (talk) 03:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support. To answer User:L3X1's question, this doesn't mean we'll start applying broad blocks to IP addresses just to catch a single person. What it will do is make it easier for admins to "shoot on sight" when they see this person appear, rather than having to wait for antisocial behaviour then clean it up. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC).
- Comment - User admits to continuing to sockpuppet in the comment directly above. Case opened and user ignored. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 11:56, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have removed the comment. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support - beyond obvious. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 20:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - no added value. User is already blocked on sight for block evasion and disruption. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 02:31, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- I think that a rangeblock would be more effective as we wouldn't have to even block them in the first place. It stops disruptive behavior before it happens. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 11:05, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- A rangeblock probably isn't possible or it would have already been done. There is no requirement for an IP to be banned before they can be rangeblocked. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 15:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- The value is in the route to appeal. An indef blocked user (even one who is de facto banned) may appeal to any administrator and convince them that they won't repeat the behaviour that led to the block, whereas a sitebanned user must appeal to the community. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Question - This user qualifies for taking the WP:STANDARDOFFER on July 9th, 2017 (as of this edit). Will this user be barred from taking this offer, or will they be allowed to. I think that all this sockpuppetry amounts to not being allowed to take the offer ever. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 11:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:SO requires six months without block evasion. As they've been evading their block as recently as this week, they wouldn't qualify until late September. Still, I see no reason why WP:SO shouldn't be extended here. Given the years of disruption, it'd be hard work to convince the community the ban should be lifted, but it's possible. --Yamla (talk) 13:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- We never revoke the standard offer, that's why it's the standard offer. But there are some users whose appeals are highly unlikely to ever be successful, and this is probably one of them. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:SO requires six months without block evasion. As they've been evading their block as recently as this week, they wouldn't qualify until late September. Still, I see no reason why WP:SO shouldn't be extended here. Given the years of disruption, it'd be hard work to convince the community the ban should be lifted, but it's possible. --Yamla (talk) 13:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Legal threat in AfD discussion
| (non-admin closure) Josh4u blocked indefinitely per WP:NLT. Kleuske (talk) 09:23, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In an AfD discussion, the article creator Josh4u made a legal threat and requested that the nominator should provide their personal details, here. Josh4u has been warned and asked to retract the threat. --bonadea contributions talk 08:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely, for now. El_C 08:24, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
edit warring to close RfC just started two days ago
| The RfC has been reopened. In general RfC's should probably not be opened until after reasonable efforts have been made to reach consensus locally, that is to say on the relevant talk page. All concerned are reminded that ANI should not normally be your first stop when trying sort out a disagreement like whether or not an RfC was opened, or closed, too soon. There is not a single line in this insanely bloated discussion that could not have been posted on the relevant talk page with the same effect. See also WP:DR. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I opened an RfC on Donald Trump talk regarding LGBT rights on March 22 here.
- Today, an editor closed it claiming WP:SNOW here. I reverted the close because the RfC's been up just two days, and has two supports and I mentioned this in the edit summary. here. Then another editor came along and reverted me, without any explanation in the edit summary here. And you'll note, this editor voted Oppose. He's involved and can't close anyway.
- I'm asking for an admin to reopen the RfC because the bot notices have not gone out yet, and won't for at least a week, and as cautionary note says, this close is too soon because it seems the Oppose votes are early pile on, and closing will prevent editors with other opinions from weighing in. I'm not asking for anyone to be blocked, just reopen the RfC by an admin, and if this closing persists, then a block would be needed. But I think an admin doing this will solve it for now. Thank you. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- 1. Please read my close statement. I specifically did not call it SNOW, and I stated as such. 2. The second point was probably more important. 3. This dispute belongs in article talk, not here. This is the second time in, what, 10 days? that you've run to ANI to complain about something that should be handled calmly among editors in article talk. This is not what admins do. ―Mandruss☎ 16:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- And you did not think to comment on the talk page before closing the RfC? SW3 5DL (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- That is not required. I understood that closes are subject to challenge. I applied WP:BRD and executed a WP:BOLD edit (B). You challenged by reverting (R), which was an entirely legitimate move. The next step is discussion (D). So go discuss. Anythingyouwant's re-revert is a fuzzier matter, but it was just one revert and that sort of thing is so common that it certainly doesn't warrant a trip to ANI. If you want to make an issue of it, you could take it to WP:ANEW where edit warring complaints are addressed. Me, I would just discuss instead. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:18, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- And you did not think to comment on the talk page before closing the RfC? SW3 5DL (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
The RfC had responses. It is barely 2 days old. The bot notices have not gone out. This is shutting down an RfC the larger community is meant to comment on. This page does not belong to you or any other editor. You are free to give your ivote, but you do not have the right to deny the ivote to others in the community because it is your opinion that it should be closed. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
If you report Anythingyouwant's re-revert as EW, be sure to report this one as well. Many editors mistakenly draw a distinction between "good" edit warring and "bad" edit warring, despite clear advice NOT to do that in the first paragraph at WP:EW. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The RFC was properly closed. Then SW3 reverted without discussion. I restored the close (once), and posted this note at SW3's talk page. Then SundayClose reverted my revert so I left this note at SundayClose's talk page. The proper thing is to restore the close, and seek consensus to overturn it at the proper notice board.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC) @Sundayclose:Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @SW3 5DL: I have started that discussion for you. If this is the wrong way to handle this dispute, I'm always open to learning. Please cite p&g. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:06, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- The RfC should probably have never been started. A five comment thread lasting less than a day does not constitute a
reasonable attempt at working out ... disputes
required of an RfC, and definitely not on an article with almost 2,000 watchers. RfCs can be lengthy bureaucratic exercises, and frivolous ones squander the time and attention of those willing to repond to Legobot. - This should not have come to ANI at all without at least attempting to discuss the issue, and when it did, OP should have notified the individuals involved, as is required.
- The RfC probably should have never been closed, and any autoconfirmed user should have been able to predict that doing so would have resulted in a metric ton of drama. While failure to discuss the issue is a legitimate reason to not start an RfC, it is not clearly a legitimate reason to close one once it's well underway. Once reopened, it should definitely not have been closed again by an involved user.
- Performing an obvious SNOW close while claiming you are not invoking IAR actually means exactly nothing. It's still an obvious SNOW, or at least an attempt at one.
- The RfC has been reopened, and there is no administrative action that needs done here that I can tell, so I believe we're done here. TimothyJosephWood 17:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- So I can henceforth revert an RFC close whenever I disagree with it, even if I started the RFC?Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Disagree with your reasoning, Timothyjosephwood, still waiting for that p&g to counter mine. But I agree that we should be done here. ―Mandruss☎ 17:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- You don't have a policy to stand on either. You have a recommendation from a WikiProject page which applies to starting an RfC and not to closing it, a close that is clearly not uncontroversial and therefore within the scope of an WP:NAC, a completely botched WP:SNOW close besides, which itself is a misapplication of the policy even as it claims to not be an attempt to invoke the policy it consummately misapplies, and now you have a gratuitous link to WP:STICK. TimothyJosephWood 17:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Failure to defer to the opinion of one non-admin editor hardly constitutes beating the deceased equine, so you might want to reconsider playing the STICK card here. I have now found WP:BADNAC item 2, which is the only remotely applicable p&g supporting your argument. It applies if a disagreement from the inappropriately-started RfC's opener, and one other editor, constitutes a "controversy" that I could have predicted. Otherwise it does not apply. It remains to be seen just how controversial the close is, which is why I opened the discussion in AT. ―Mandruss☎ 18:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- WP:NAC is neither a policy nor a guideline.
- WP:BADNAC is in the section specifically covering XFD
- There is however a section covering RfC, and I particularly like this bit, after all, I wrote it:
Editors should consider not only whether their assessment of the consensus is correct, but whether the discussion might be better closed by an administrator as a matter of form, resulting in a judgement that would be less likely to be challenged, even if the substance of the outcome would be the same.
TimothyJosephWood 18:09, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you. Then this comes down to one question: Is it inappropriate to close an inappropriately-opened RfC, subject to challenge? You have stated your view, but you have yet to show p&g that answers that question. ―Mandruss☎ 18:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure WP:COMMONSENSE pretty well covers a situation where you boldly close an RfC two hours after it started and it gets reverted by two different editors. TimothyJosephWood 18:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- It would appear that your common sense and mine are in conflict. User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense For the record, that's 26 hours, not 2. ―Mandruss☎ 18:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Meh. Point still stands. There's nothing wrong with making a good faith effort to close an RfC that may stand a comparatively small chance of succeeding. And while it may be a touch premature, the question posed itself isn't a gross misinterpretation of policy, and whether to close it early is not something that justifies more debate than it would take for the actual RfC to fail. TimothyJosephWood 20:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood: If that's a change in your position (I can't really tell), it would help matters if you would add to or strike your comment in the AT thread. You come across as very authoritative there and some editors may perceive you as an authority. ―Mandruss☎ 20:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well I've been around for about ten years now, so I'd like to think I've started to get the hang of things. That NACs are intended to be uncontroversial closures isn't apparently abundantly clear in the guidance provided, is a problem with the guidance, and one I intend to fix, because it is overwhelmingly the de facto practice with regard to what closures are and are not appropriate for non-administrators. TimothyJosephWood 21:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- If the definition of "controversial close" is any close that might be contested by two editors, I suspect virtually all closes are controversial. By your reasoning, then, except for a precious few no-brainers that any 13-year-old could handle, only admins should close discussions. This needs "fixing" only if you say that closes, and NACs in particular, are not subject to challenge. ―Mandruss☎ 21:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- We are not dealing in the hypothetical "might be challenged". The close was challenged by two editors, and they are supported by myself, and it therefore is not an uncontroversial close appropriate for an NAC. NACs are intended to be and are for the most part janitorial actions. If you don't understand it then you need to hang out more in XFD type places, and if you don't like it then tough luck. NACs are definitely subject to challenge, and the challenge in-and-of-itself serves as an indication that the close was not uncontroversial and that there is more discussion on the matter to be had. TimothyJosephWood 22:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
there is more discussion on the matter to be had.
Precisely. That has been my position from the start of this thread. And I in fact started said discussion. It requires a stunning failure of logic to say that the close was rendered retroactively improper by objections that were not known in advance of the close. If this is where 10 years gets you, you can have it. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would also remind you that failed RfCs are themselves precedent setting in certain ways, and can be useful in avoiding endless rehashing of the same debate ad nauseam if it is the case that there is not a new argument or fresh evidence to suggest that the previous RfC might be overturned. But a botched closure likely ruins all that and makes us all go through the same song and dance again, when we could be over at WP:BACKLOG fixing #### that matters. TimothyJosephWood 22:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- We are not dealing in the hypothetical "might be challenged". The close was challenged by two editors, and they are supported by myself, and it therefore is not an uncontroversial close appropriate for an NAC. NACs are intended to be and are for the most part janitorial actions. If you don't understand it then you need to hang out more in XFD type places, and if you don't like it then tough luck. NACs are definitely subject to challenge, and the challenge in-and-of-itself serves as an indication that the close was not uncontroversial and that there is more discussion on the matter to be had. TimothyJosephWood 22:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- If the definition of "controversial close" is any close that might be contested by two editors, I suspect virtually all closes are controversial. By your reasoning, then, except for a precious few no-brainers that any 13-year-old could handle, only admins should close discussions. This needs "fixing" only if you say that closes, and NACs in particular, are not subject to challenge. ―Mandruss☎ 21:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well I've been around for about ten years now, so I'd like to think I've started to get the hang of things. That NACs are intended to be uncontroversial closures isn't apparently abundantly clear in the guidance provided, is a problem with the guidance, and one I intend to fix, because it is overwhelmingly the de facto practice with regard to what closures are and are not appropriate for non-administrators. TimothyJosephWood 21:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood: If that's a change in your position (I can't really tell), it would help matters if you would add to or strike your comment in the AT thread. You come across as very authoritative there and some editors may perceive you as an authority. ―Mandruss☎ 20:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Meh. Point still stands. There's nothing wrong with making a good faith effort to close an RfC that may stand a comparatively small chance of succeeding. And while it may be a touch premature, the question posed itself isn't a gross misinterpretation of policy, and whether to close it early is not something that justifies more debate than it would take for the actual RfC to fail. TimothyJosephWood 20:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- It would appear that your common sense and mine are in conflict. User:Cyclopia/Ubx common sense For the record, that's 26 hours, not 2. ―Mandruss☎ 18:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure WP:COMMONSENSE pretty well covers a situation where you boldly close an RfC two hours after it started and it gets reverted by two different editors. TimothyJosephWood 18:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Failure to defer to the opinion of one non-admin editor hardly constitutes beating the deceased equine, so you might want to reconsider playing the STICK card here. I have now found WP:BADNAC item 2, which is the only remotely applicable p&g supporting your argument. It applies if a disagreement from the inappropriately-started RfC's opener, and one other editor, constitutes a "controversy" that I could have predicted. Otherwise it does not apply. It remains to be seen just how controversial the close is, which is why I opened the discussion in AT. ―Mandruss☎ 18:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- You don't have a policy to stand on either. You have a recommendation from a WikiProject page which applies to starting an RfC and not to closing it, a close that is clearly not uncontroversial and therefore within the scope of an WP:NAC, a completely botched WP:SNOW close besides, which itself is a misapplication of the policy even as it claims to not be an attempt to invoke the policy it consummately misapplies, and now you have a gratuitous link to WP:STICK. TimothyJosephWood 17:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Despite the "Keep calm" message on his talk page, SW3 appears to lose his cool a bit too easily these days. Do we need to swap the trout of a few days ago for a whale? The early RfC close was audacious but justified given the lack of prior efforts at consensus-building and the quasi-unanimous opposition to the OP's proposal. He comes complaining to AN/I counting two supports including his own and one "compromise support", neglecting to note the 8 editors opposing, all providing a cogent rationale (not "me too" !votes). I have no prejudice against keeping the RfC open but it frankly doesn't stand a chance. OP also falsely claims that "the bot notices have not gone out yet, and won't for at least a week", which is patently false [158][159][160] thus abusing the incidents board. — JFG talk 18:16, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- SW3 was referring to the user talk notices summoning subscribed editors to the RfC, not the listings. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just putting this here since the threading is getting wonky. But trying to champion further discussion and broader input while arguing to shut down on of the most powerful tools available to solicit further discussion and broader input, is a pretty self-contradictory position to take.
It requires a stunning failure of logic to say that the close was rendered retroactively improper by objections that were not known in advance of the close.
No, it doesn't. What it requires is an appreciation for the fact that the close may not have been as uncontroversially acceptable as originally thought, and a passive willingness to let the discussion happen even if it is a failed one. As I said above, failed RfCs are also important gauges of consensus. The "D" in BRD with regard to closing an RfC is the actual RfC, not a discussion about the discussion, whether to shut down the discussion or whether to let it continue. But at this point, I'm not seeing anyone stepping in to try to reclose, so I'm not really sure why we're still talking about it. TimothyJosephWood 10:34, 25 March 2017 (UTC)- @Timothyjosephwood: The entire point here is that the issue was given far too little time in regular discussion before the RfC was started. 10 hours, 5 comments, 3 editors. This was a misuse of the RfC process—as I clearly articulated in my close statement, including a direct quote from WP:RFC itself. I'm sure you're aware that clear consensuses can be developed without RfC. I didn't shut down discussion, I shut down the inappropriate RfC. You seem to have lost sight of that fact. Then the same editor who misused the RfC process came here and misused the ANI process—for the second time in a week. But it's clear that we're not getting anywhere here; if you're unable to hear what I'm saying I'm prepared to drop this and kick this can down the road. I will do the same thing under similar circumstances in the future. ―Mandruss☎ 12:44, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I hear what you're saying, and I agree that the RfC was premature; I just disagree that that's a sufficient justification to close it over the objection of multiple editors. But I agree that we're not really getting anywhere here, and even if we were, it doesn't require the admin bit, so considering the can kicked is probably as good a resolution as any. TimothyJosephWood 13:15, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Timothyjosephwood: The entire point here is that the issue was given far too little time in regular discussion before the RfC was started. 10 hours, 5 comments, 3 editors. This was a misuse of the RfC process—as I clearly articulated in my close statement, including a direct quote from WP:RFC itself. I'm sure you're aware that clear consensuses can be developed without RfC. I didn't shut down discussion, I shut down the inappropriate RfC. You seem to have lost sight of that fact. Then the same editor who misused the RfC process came here and misused the ANI process—for the second time in a week. But it's clear that we're not getting anywhere here; if you're unable to hear what I'm saying I'm prepared to drop this and kick this can down the road. I will do the same thing under similar circumstances in the future. ―Mandruss☎ 12:44, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@Timothyjosephwood: Thank you for your reasoned comments here. The Donald Trump talk page has had multiple RfC's, often with several open at the same time. RfCs on that page are commonplace, sometimes with little prior discussion, and sometimes contentious. See here and note the calls to 'abort,' but nobody shut down that RfC. Closing the RfC without any prior discussion, without ivoting, without any comments offered to that effect, is disruption. The claim that the RfC was 'premature' does not justify disruption, as you've noted. That explanation is akin to, "I set the house on fire because the lights went out and I needed the light to find the fuse box." As for bringing the issue here, I needed somebody to put out the fire. I think you've done that. Thank you. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- What has happened in other non-identical cases is irrelevant here. To whatever extent previous cases are similar, consider that perhaps it was simply tolerated until we reached a point of "enough is enough, this needs to stop". As I've said, I reserve the right do it again under similar circumstances (unless an admin tells me not to; note that no admin has weighed in here one way or the other). Please observe WP:RFC as to proper use of the RfC process; that guidance is there for good reason. ―Mandruss☎ 16:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- To SW3 5DL, your RfC was premature, period, and as I said above, we have finite resources of people willing to respond to Legobot and actually make well reasoned contributions, and we should not squander that on issues that have not yet been sufficiently discussed. That standard is weighted by the amount of page watchers, with relatively isolated articles warranting more quickly turning to broader opinion, and very heavily watched pages tending toward simply waiting for more input and further discussion. Claiming open disruption, is a pretty high standard, and one which should not be done lightly.
- To Mandruss, being an administrator is not a big deal and putting so much weight into the opinions of someone who has more buttons than you makes you come off as sophomoric. I would advise putting more weight into well reasoned arguments instead. TimothyJosephWood 23:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Great concept dude, but what if I feel my reasoned arguments are better than your reasoned arguments? Deep question. Furthermore, considering that the article is under DS and I have no desire to be blocked, what admins think about this does matter to me. As it's likely this thread has been read by one or more admins without comment to date, my takeaway is that I wasn't too far out of line. Your reasoned arguments notwithstanding. Also note that there were reasoned arguments in support of my action (admittedly one just barely off the fence) from two experienced editors who are familiar with the context on that talk page, which you are not. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@Timothyjosephwood:, If you'll re-read my comments to you above, you will note I direct my comments only to the disruptive closing of the RfC. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: The RfC has been re-opened. There is actually no specific timing or waiting necessary for an RfC, unless there has been an RfC on the exact same question completed less than 30 days beforehand. Discussions about the parameters and variables and options regarding the subject of the RfC should occur in the "Discussion" section of the RfC.
The RfC is neutrally worded. That said, it is very confusing, as on the surface it seems to be asking where a/the section on LGBT Rights should be placed, and most editors are responding to that question. However, looking deeper, the RfC appears to be actually asking whether there should be an LGBT Rights section or paragraph in the article at all (so far there isn't one). So, although the wording of the RfC is neutral, it is not clear. A clearer question would be: "Should this article contain a section or paragraph on LGBT rights?" My suggestion, if it is possible, would be to scrap the current RfC and create a new one with that question, along with a sample cited proposed text for the section/paragraph. Where it should go inside the DT article is not the important question. Softlavender (talk) 03:42, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
There is actually no specific timing or waiting necessary for an RfC,
- Well that's just contrary to fairly clear guidance at WP:RFC, as stated multiple times above. You're free to seek a change to community consensus on that point. If you mean that the guidance doesn't say anything like "RfC should not be started until at least one week of prior discussion, involving at least 6 editors and 50 comments, has failed to reach consensus" ... well, duh. No Wikipedia guidance is like that. 10 hours/5 comments/3 editors is clearly insufficient by any reasonable interpretation, or the guidance is useless and should be removed. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@Softlavender:, I will take a look at the RfC again, but from what I saw it appears there is a total objection to the mention of LGBT rights, and the arguments seem to center on it being a social issue, rather than a civil rights issue, despite RS calling LGBT rights a civil issue. Hence, the RfC. I will check the wording. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Once again, you are conflating two issues into one. You need to do things in order: (1) Create a viable cited text for a paragraph or section on LGBT rights. (2) Gain consensus to put it in that article or into some other article about the Trump presidency. You should not have started an RfC without doing those things thoroughly beforehand. And the RfC you did start is confusing and unclear and doesn't even ask what you want to ask, which is should there be mention of LGBT rights in the article. Your bringing up the name of the article section has torpedoed the entire premature RfC. Softlavender (talk) 15:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Please use the article talk page for content discussion. This ANI thread was opened only for the purposes of reopening the RfC after a disruptive close. That's been done. The issue has been resolved. The thread here needs to be closed. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Wilson Tan vandalism
| Wilson Tan blocked indefinitely, so apparently resolved S Philbrick(Talk) 15:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I reported Wilson Tan (talk · contribs) to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism, but was advised to redirect the issue here as it is slow, but long-term vandalism. This account appears to be a disruptive-only account with every edit being vandalism. The user has mainly been introducing factual errors at 2017 Melbourne Football Club season (among other AFL pages too) by inputting results for games that haven't been played yet. The user continued to vandalise with introducing deliberate factual errors even after final warning. Flickerd (talk) 08:26, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked indef. --NeilN talk to me 15:13, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Revdel
| Done -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 18:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please. Many thanks — O Fortuna! Imperatrix mundi. 18:22, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi:
Done -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 18:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Vandalism by Hyilix
| (non-admin closure) Blocked for 48 hrs. Kleuske (talk) 21:47, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hey, can this person Hyilix (talk · contribs · logs) be blocked soon? He/She messed up Today's feature article in a way that it's very impossible to simply revert. Look at his contributions, lots of vandalisms and trying to joke with people that complain about his edits. On his talk page, lots of users are complaining about his subtile vandalism. --Deansfa (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Ok look, I was just testing Wikipedia's integrity. If you want to fix the vandalism just revert the edit at 19:18, 26 March 2017 by Hyilix on the Interstate 8 page. Hyilix (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC) Hyilix
- It wasn't so simple. You admitted yourself that the time was long between [your constructive edit (to help the ignorant we are understand how to make vandalism) and the edit couldn't be reverted because of conflicted diffs. --Deansfa (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Support block: Contributions show lots of vandalism, which is clearly no joke. Setting the integrity tone doesn't help as much either. SportsLair (talk) 20:54, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked 48 hours This was deliberate and barefaced vandalism. If you don't know enough not to do this, then you need to spend the next couple of days thinking about this and what you hope to accomplish here. If anything like this is repeated, you should expect a long term/permanent wikibreak. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Numerous huge test edits and immediate revert by IP
| User blocked for 31 hours. Re-report further incidents. (non-admin closure) DarkKnight2149 01:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't know if anything can be done about this, but for four years 97.76.226.66 (talk · contribs) has made large test edits (typically 5000-12000 bytes), then reverted them within one minute. It's clearly the same person making the edits because they all are made to articles related to Saturday Night Live. This IP has made less than fifty total edits, almost all of them following the same pattern. Other users and I have given standard warnings with no change. The frequency of these test edits is increasing, now occurring every week or two. If I'm the only one annoyed by this, feel free to ignore this report. Thanks! Sundayclose (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked 31 hrs This is clearly long term disruptive editing. Re-report if they start up again either here or at AIV. Or you can just drop a line on my talk page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:06, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
User:GretzkyCC
| We're done here. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GretzkyCC (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) is related to a victim of the 2017 Westminster attack. This editor has been editing the article, and got into a minor edit war, which they had agreed to cease. Inappropriate edit summaries using the phrase "muslim scum" have been made. I issued a clear warning that the phrase was unacceptable, which GretzkyCC reverted as vandalism. It has been suggested at talk:2017 Westminster attack#"an Islamic terrorist attack" (again) that GretzkyCC is WP:NOTHERE. That needs to be tempered by the admittance of being related to a victim, and that GretzkyCC may be grieving. However, such editing cannot be allowed to continue. GretzkyCC needs to understand this. Mjroots (talk) 08:14, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- GretzkyCC has been notified of this discussion. Mjroots (talk) 08:17, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have ceased my bad behaviour. I admitted to, and apologised for it at Talk:2017 Westminster attack. Having violated Wikipedia policy, I accept my punishment. GretzkyCC (talk) 08:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- @GretzkyCC: - It's not about punishment, and if this can be resolved without you being blocked then that is all to the good. Mjroots (talk) 08:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have been reported by another user for edit warring, which will likely bring about a block. I'm accepting of that. When I return I will get back to the constructive editing I was doing before. WP:NOTHERE doesn't apply, since I have made multiple constructive edits from this account and was a longtime constructive IP editor before signing up. GretzkyCC (talk) 08:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- @GretzkyCC: - It's not about punishment, and if this can be resolved without you being blocked then that is all to the good. Mjroots (talk) 08:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I have ceased my bad behaviour. I admitted to, and apologised for it at Talk:2017 Westminster attack. Having violated Wikipedia policy, I accept my punishment. GretzkyCC (talk) 08:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that this editor is continuing to edit-war on other articles, making their explanations seem a little bit hollow. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Blocked per the user's own admission of being a sock. Sam Walton (talk) 09:34, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Impersonation account
| (non-admin closure) Both impersonation account blocked. Kleuske (talk) 12:36, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
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User:Barek2 is an impersonation account that needs to be blocked. It was created by a longtime troll whose current gimmick is impersonation accounts. —DangerousJXD (talk) 05:07, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Indeffed. El_C 05:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Darkknight2150 is another. —DangerousJXD (talk) 08:58, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Now blocked. —DangerousJXD (talk) 09:15, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
If this troll tries to "Impersonate" (and I use that word loosely) me again, can someone notify me? If ANI wasn't on my watchlist, I wouldn't know about this. DarkKnight2149 13:09, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Elisa.rolle
| We're beating a dead horse. If Elisa follows through with her promise to leave Wikipedia, there's no further problem. If not, any admin may, if they feel justified in doing so, block her, or a new thread may be opened with a link to this one for background. In the meantime, there's not much more to say here.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:04, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could an admin please have a look at this editor's contribs and see if a competencyu block is in order. She's only been editing for three days but has many edits to many article, spending about 5 seconds or so on each edit. Some highlights of her activities:
- Replacing good images with her own less good images
- Adding multiple images without consideration of how the images will effect the article layout
- Adding very poor images (i.e. too dark, poorly composed) to articles
- Adding images duplicative of images already in the article which don't add to or improve on the existing image
- Not explaining in captions why an image is relevant to the article, thus making the reader find the connection between the two
- Adding irrelevant images to articls, i.e. in the article on a male subject, adding a picture of the man's wife when she was a child
- Promoting her own work, a "travel guide" to LGBTQ luminaries, from which her pictures came from
Many editors have left messages to her on her talk page, asking her to slow down, giving advice, etc, but she's not fundamentally listening. (Or, rather, she's listening, but selectively. After I spent around 10 hours (cumulatively) fixing the articles she wrecked, and told her so, she re-doubled her efforts, this time using historical photographs, and after I fixed a number of those, and decided that the effort was not worth the outcome, and that he additions were not so intrinsically valuable as to justify the time it would take to fix the many articles she worked on today, I told her I would be rollbacking her edits, and did so. She reverted back. I'm now going to stay very far away from this person, but I believe an examination of her editing is warranted, and that perhaps a WP:CIR block might be needed if she doesn;t listed to the advice that's given to her. IN any case, I will not be fixing the articles that she re-ruined by reverting, so someone might want to spend the 12-20 hours that will take, or simply revert her back and warn her to take her time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:05, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I did listen to all advice I was given, and when I simply asked a question to you, you replied " It's really not necessary that we have photographs of where every LGBT luminary in the past 100 years has lived.", so if the issue is that, I'm adding LGBT content, and you do not like it, I think there is a huger problem here than me editing. Removing content that is pertinent to the article only since it's LGBT content I hope it's against some rules. Anyway, I'm tired of it, I posted my content, and I posted content from the Library of Congress (Arnold Genthe and Frances Benjamin Johnson, who are LGBT photographers of the past whose work is public domain). You reverted the edit on a building of Paul Rudolph, a Beach Club, to which a use added the photo of the sea in front. I put the original design by Paul Rudolph that is stored at the Library of Congress. Again Rudolph was gay, is that a reason to remove a pertinent content? I posted the common tombstone of Anne Whitney and Abby Manning AND corrected the cemetery details, that were wrong. You reverted the edit, therefore leaving a wrong info in the article. Only since Carole realized it, she reverted to my previous edit. I realized someone is scared of too much LGBT content. Therefore I will stop. BUT the content I added, I kindly ask it remains. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:12, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Don't play the LGBTQ card, as you know nothing about me, my friends, my family, my life or my work. You sound just like all the other editors who are certain that I'm anti-whatever-they-are-for because I edit to make Wikipedia better, without regard to their POV or yours or anyone else's. Your edits were often very bad, and that's why they were deleted. Period, full stop. That you can't see that is part of the reason I think you may be incompetent to edit Wikipedia - but that's for someone else to determine, as I'm off of your train for good. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:21, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would advise taking a very deep breath before insinuating some kind of bias against an editor of long standing and high regard. Perhaps you would like to review and modify your above comment? As it stands I don't think it is likely to be helpful. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Elisa.rolle You seem more concerned with venting than building an Encyclopedia. - Mlpearc (open channel) 00:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- As User:Beyond My Ken mentioned, several of the images this editor is uploading appear to be from her own book. See [161] and [162]. There doesn't appear to be any copyright violations, and there has been no attempt to create a Wikipedia article about herself. Still, there may be a conflict of interest. "Look at all these great pictures of South Beach...and I can get them all in this book on Amazon". Magnolia677 (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ad Orientem, it wasn't me that introduced the LGBT topic at first, I just replied to a comment. Never once before that I pointed out mine was LGBT content. Yes, it's, but the articles were already in Wikipedia, I did not create them. I just completed them with pertinent pictures. Mlpearc, I'm not sure about the venting comment. I gave 3 clear examples of why the reverting was wrong. But as I said, I stop here, I will go back to read, as I was doing before receiving 99+ notification of reverting without reason, and I will not edit more. If you wish to revert correct edits, personal opinion is you are loosing valuable content. But is up to you. Already 2 people reverted the content, they provided a plausible reason, and I accept it. As per some of the images being sourced from my book, yes, they are, and of course is not copyright infringiment, since I gave it to wikimedia with a Creative Commons license. I DID NOT put any reference on the wikipedia article about my book, and as Magnolia said, I DID NOT create any new article. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- A specific reply to Magnoglia, I added also public domain content from Arnold Genthe and Frances Benjamin Johnson, first uploading it to Wikimedia (I checked personally with the Library of Congress, and that is no copyright infringement) and then adding it to Wikipedia. In no way this is link to my book, therefore this was all volunteering job from my side. All my edits were reverted without reason. And I hope the explanation that the pictures were not good does not apply: Arnold Genthe and Frances Benjamin Johnson were among the best photographer of the XX century, an inheritance the US should be proud of (and I'm Italian, therefore I'm talking as an admirer here). --Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ad Orientem, it wasn't me that introduced the LGBT topic at first, I just replied to a comment. Never once before that I pointed out mine was LGBT content. Yes, it's, but the articles were already in Wikipedia, I did not create them. I just completed them with pertinent pictures. Mlpearc, I'm not sure about the venting comment. I gave 3 clear examples of why the reverting was wrong. But as I said, I stop here, I will go back to read, as I was doing before receiving 99+ notification of reverting without reason, and I will not edit more. If you wish to revert correct edits, personal opinion is you are loosing valuable content. But is up to you. Already 2 people reverted the content, they provided a plausible reason, and I accept it. As per some of the images being sourced from my book, yes, they are, and of course is not copyright infringiment, since I gave it to wikimedia with a Creative Commons license. I DID NOT put any reference on the wikipedia article about my book, and as Magnolia said, I DID NOT create any new article. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- As User:Beyond My Ken mentioned, several of the images this editor is uploading appear to be from her own book. See [161] and [162]. There doesn't appear to be any copyright violations, and there has been no attempt to create a Wikipedia article about herself. Still, there may be a conflict of interest. "Look at all these great pictures of South Beach...and I can get them all in this book on Amazon". Magnolia677 (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Elisa.rolle You seem more concerned with venting than building an Encyclopedia. - Mlpearc (open channel) 00:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Based on what I've looked at so far and the replies from Elisa.rolle, at least one of which looks like an attack on BMK's motives, I'm strongly inclined to the view that at the very least there are some CIR issues here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I think that there have been some images that have been helpful, but there are also sometimes that images are added that are not needed. A key issue seems to be being very new to Wikipedia and not really understanding the guidelines for adding images and that it's very helpful to engage in discussions about reverted image additions, rather than adding it back.
- Looking at the article with the most number of edits, Greta Garbo, there were two images added of her from 1925. Both images would benefit from cropping - and really only one of the images should be used. It makes the top of that section busy. I'll start a discussion about that on the article talk page and will crop the images in commons.
- I would recommend not adding anymore images until the guidelines about images are reviewed. I gave one link earlier WP:Images and there are links from that page to more information. I agree with the point about questioning BMK's motives, that was inappropriate.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- It would not be so much of an issue if she would use accurate descriptions on Commons. Instead, she is putting information about her book in the descriptions. If all the descriptions removed mentions of her book, that would go a long way to indicate they are here to contribute to building an encyclopaedia, instead of promoting their own works. --‖ Ebyabe talk - General Health ‖ 05:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed, it looks like it's a blanket description, rather than describing the photos - which makes it a problem if there's not a tie in the article to the photograph.
- I have been going through her contributions and for the most part have been having to revert the additions: 1) Poor quality historic images that have required cropping (ragged edges, cut marks along the side, etc.), 2) angles and composition that are not appropriate for encyclopedia articles (ex: commons:File:Lincoln Kirstein House, New York City, NY.jpg), 3) adding duplicate and unnecessary additional images that make the pages too busy. I am stopping now because it is beginning to seem that it would make sense to just revert all current versions of her contributions where she reverted BMK's edits, rather than looking at each and every one.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
This seems like a case where mentoring would be the most prudent path to take. If successful we'll have fixed the problem and retained an editor with a decent amount of knowledge on an underrepresented topic. 2600:1017:B01B:C417:4D47:2706:B7F3:C2F1 (talk) 10:55, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for this suggestion and for recognizing I have "a decent amount of knowledge on an underrepresented topic", but as I said, I do not feel like continuing. I'm replying to some comments Carole did on some reverting, just one I made a further edit (she was complaining about the bad angle of the Lincoln Kirstein House photo, I had another I did not upload on Wikimedia, I did, and if that is better, ok, otherwise she is free to revert). But I will not do any more edits, and I will not add anymore pictures on Wikimedia. If you haven't noticed, I'm Italian, and I spend quite a lot of my savings to travel to those places and take pictures that then I was willing to put out for free with a Creative Commons licence. Another user pointed out there is a sort of guidelines on how not to bite the newcomers; well, I felt not only as I was bitten, but also chewed and splitted. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 11:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- A terribly convenient IP, with just one edit, parachutes in and offers support. Is it just me, or is someone quacking? Kleuske (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- You weren't bitten, you simply weren't listening. BB has been around for a long time and knows the policies; and he at least started out politely. 2600:1017:B002:688:9AA0:2E5B:B0BC:44D9 (talk) 13:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I understand you are more into it than me. A "conveniently" IP address offers support, another just continue with the attack. For me is the same. No, Beyond My Ken didn't start politely, he started from the beginning in an unpolite way. I replied once, using the talk action, without reverting his actions, but just asking why in ONE event he was removing two photos and a sentence in an article WITHOUT photos and the reason was "unnecessary", and his answer was "It's really not necessary that we have photographs of where every LGBT luminary in the past 100 years has lived" and to revert ALL my edits in less than one hour. If this is how it works here fine. I just offered CaroleHenson (talk) to help on adjusting/removing my edits, but sincerely at this point, I take back my offer. Do as you wish, and I would also kindly ask to close this topic. I would prefer no support o attack is coming my way anymore. You can block me, or do whatever you want, I'm not asking to continue editing. I do not want to continue with editing. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Post-close note: Just a reminder that there are about 60 articles which Elisa.rolle edited which still need to be vetted to see if the edits were improvements., so there's a project for some hardy soul(s). CaroleHenson found out, as I did, that fixing the edits can be quite labor-intensive, especially considering the minimal improvements they provide, so in some cases reversion of her edit may be required. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Vandalizing talk page
| Nothing to see here move along folks. Amortias (T)(C) 21:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Davidbena decided to randomly remove other users' comments, on the talk page of an WP:ARBPIA3 article. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- It looks like an edit conflict, which accidentally happens sometimes (don't ask me how). Let's ask User:Davidbena if they'd like to restore the comments. Alternatively, do so yourself. -- zzuuzz(talk) 20:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, didn't see zzuuzz's reply and just now fixed it myself. Yeah, I'm confident it was an edit conflict. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
There was an edit conflict. No vandalizing.Davidbena (talk) 20:54, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Harassment
| I think we've had our fill of ARBPIA on ANI for the week. El_C 07:21, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oncenawhile (talk · contribs) has been posting baiting attempts and other crap on my talk page for years:
- [163] (personal comments about my name)
- [164] (I never mentioned Harper)
- [165] (personal attack after I made a comment about his harassment)
- [166] (acknowledges I removed his post but somehow thinks this is gloating material, adds more personal attacks)
- [167] (more childish baiting)
- [168] (this was today, again acknowledging that I remove his crap from my page)
All this despite my repeated removal of his comments and requests that he stop posting on my page (which you can see in the edit summaries of [169] [170] [171]). Can an admin kindly do something about this?
FWIW, he also likes telling other editors they are not full members of the human race [172], for example. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Anything recent? What I'm getting at is what brought you to ANI today. El_C 22:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, this. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- My sixth diff above notes it's from today, but a quick look at my talk page would have shown you that today not only did he post that ridiculous bait, it was preceded by [173] this nonsense, also today. Recent enough? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:14, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Seconding this nomination as I've also been on the receiving end, and witness to, repeated personal attacks by Oncenawhile. This has been a long-running problem with this editor, in addition to other indiscretions of his. Some examples:
- Coming on to my talk page and comparing my posting to "Milli Vanilli"
- Calling my post "general ########"
- Calling Shrike "a fraud" who "should be ashamed"
- Referring to Poliocretes as "close-minded"
- Describing my statements as "vacuous"
- Saying that I made a "stupid revert"
- Calling me "Pathetic"
- Calling me "Islamophobic" based on nothing
- Telling No More Mr Nice Guy "I worry about people when they feel the need to project their own self-importance to unknown strangers. Numerous psychological studies have shown that such behaviour belies a deep lack of underlying self confidence."
- Also pointing out that only a few days ago, BU Rob13 told Oncenawhile that he was "rapidly heading towards a topic ban" based on some of these personal attacks. Obviously that hasn't made any difference. Drsmoo (talk) 23:14, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I was ready to topic ban until I realized these diffs were from 2015 and 2016. This editor received a final warning of sorts about a week ago at AE. Coming to ANI very shortly after with diffs from before the warning is not helpful. The only 2017 diff shown here was a bit snarky but not a personal attack. No action is needed here. I will only reiterate my earlier warning to Oncenawhile with the added comment that you will be blocked for a long period of time if this ever repeats itself. That diff is beyond the pale, and it would have resulted in sanction if it had been reported at the time. ~ Rob13Talk 23:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi @BU Rob13: please could you expand on your use of the phrase "final warning of sorts"? Surely a final warning would require some previous warnings, an opportunity to respond, and a proper investigation of an opposing editor's list of diffs (to check if they were taken out of context or cherrypicked). Oncenawhile (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can't speak for Rob, but myself, I give one-and-only warning for personal attacks, such as for the one cited ("underlying self confidence")—so perhaps that's the inference. You should certainly consider yourself under a final warning due to it. El_C 00:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think I've made other comments like that before or since, but either way it wasn't an attack. I admit it was a personal comment, but one has to understand I had developed some kind of Stockholm syndrome with this editor. Despite his constant opposition to my edits, I consider him likely to be quite similar to me in many ways. At the very least, we both seem to care about this encyclopedia, even though we express it in different ways. Oncenawhile (talk) 01:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good. Yes, I consider it a personal attack—at the very least, casting aspersions. You should definitely avoid insinuations into editors' mental faculties. El_C 01:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oncenawhile: The pattern of behavior outlined by the diffs above is both severe and long-term. In particular, you essentially insinuated that another editor was mentally ill. That's unacceptable and warrants an only warning for discretionary sanctions. Keep in mind discretionary sanctions are active in the topic area and require no warning beyond the initial notice. ~ Rob13Talk 05:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: I object to the characterization as severe. None of my comments fall under any of the examples at WP:WIAPA. I have already acknowledged that the self-confidence comment from 14 months ago was misjudged, but it was not an allusion to mental illness (I am very sensitive to that topic, and neither low self-confidence - nor low self-esteem with which it is often incorrectly conflated - are considered mental disorders in their own right), nor was it intended as an attack. Nor is there anything severe about any of the other diffs that NMMNG or Drsmoo brought, or even some form of pattern. Many of the diffs have been misrepresented by NMMNG and Drsmoo in their summaries above (most importantly, in the majority of cases they have misrepresented comments I made about content and comments as if they were actually about the editor), and this appears to be having their desired effect. For example, at the AE, following Drsmoo's summary you incorrectly stated that I had called another editor close-minded - yet if you read my actual comment the reference was to the work of an eminent scholar who has been working (eg page 9) to counteract close-minded thinking in the field of archaeology. If you look into the other diffs, you'll find the same misrepresentation - in a much more obvious fashion - again and again.
- To get specific, are you saying I can't call another editor's comments vacuous, ########, a stupid revert, or pathetic? I have previously considered that being very direct about one's views on other's comments is sometimes appropriate.
- Finally, since you have given a strong view on their accusations regarding my editing style, please could you also look into my accusations about theirs? Oncenawhile (talk) 12:14, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oncenawhile: Vacuous and a stupid revert are fine; they address arguments, not people. ######## is pushing it in terms of civility. It's not actionable on its own, but it does assist in establishing the pattern. Pathetic is also pushing it. Look, when you go to comment on others' comments or actions, think about whether such a comment is going to help reach a consensus. Calling someone's comments "pathetic", even if you diametrically disagree, isn't helpful. It doesn't achieve any goal other than to irritate and divide. I have made plenty of harsh comments about the arguments other editors make in various disagreements of opinion. I certainly don't shy away from that. But I never use words like "stupid", "pathetic", "########" because they don't actually help with anything. At best, they don't tell you anything about why things are "stupid", etc., so they don't add anything to your argument. At worst, they incense other editors and make it much harder to reach consensus. Focus not on what's allowed by the rules but what's helpful to accomplish your own goal, if that's easier for you. ~ Rob13Talk 15:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: thanks for this, which I consider a fair and balanced assessment, and good advice. I would note that my ######## comment was actually "general ########" (being used as a cruder synonym for vacuous), and my pathetic comment related to the behavior of the editor who was once again trying to evade explaining why he reverted an edit. See, even I manage to misrepresent my own comments.
- In light of this discussion, I am reflecting on whether I should be softer when facing these kind of editors (I consider that editors who refuse to properly explain a disputed edit to be the most disruptive kind of editor we have, as they impede progress and are much harder to deal with than plain vandals). The problem is that I have yet to see admins engage on trying to fix this, so when Dispute Resolution fails (which it often does) I feel I am left to my own devices. Am I right to imply from your silence on this issue throughout this thread that you see things differently? Oncenawhile (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oncenawhile: Vacuous and a stupid revert are fine; they address arguments, not people. ######## is pushing it in terms of civility. It's not actionable on its own, but it does assist in establishing the pattern. Pathetic is also pushing it. Look, when you go to comment on others' comments or actions, think about whether such a comment is going to help reach a consensus. Calling someone's comments "pathetic", even if you diametrically disagree, isn't helpful. It doesn't achieve any goal other than to irritate and divide. I have made plenty of harsh comments about the arguments other editors make in various disagreements of opinion. I certainly don't shy away from that. But I never use words like "stupid", "pathetic", "########" because they don't actually help with anything. At best, they don't tell you anything about why things are "stupid", etc., so they don't add anything to your argument. At worst, they incense other editors and make it much harder to reach consensus. Focus not on what's allowed by the rules but what's helpful to accomplish your own goal, if that's easier for you. ~ Rob13Talk 15:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Oncenawhile: The pattern of behavior outlined by the diffs above is both severe and long-term. In particular, you essentially insinuated that another editor was mentally ill. That's unacceptable and warrants an only warning for discretionary sanctions. Keep in mind discretionary sanctions are active in the topic area and require no warning beyond the initial notice. ~ Rob13Talk 05:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Good. Yes, I consider it a personal attack—at the very least, casting aspersions. You should definitely avoid insinuations into editors' mental faculties. El_C 01:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think I've made other comments like that before or since, but either way it wasn't an attack. I admit it was a personal comment, but one has to understand I had developed some kind of Stockholm syndrome with this editor. Despite his constant opposition to my edits, I consider him likely to be quite similar to me in many ways. At the very least, we both seem to care about this encyclopedia, even though we express it in different ways. Oncenawhile (talk) 01:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can't speak for Rob, but myself, I give one-and-only warning for personal attacks, such as for the one cited ("underlying self confidence")—so perhaps that's the inference. You should certainly consider yourself under a final warning due to it. El_C 00:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi @BU Rob13: please could you expand on your use of the phrase "final warning of sorts"? Surely a final warning would require some previous warnings, an opportunity to respond, and a proper investigation of an opposing editor's list of diffs (to check if they were taken out of context or cherrypicked). Oncenawhile (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- What about his ongoing harassment on my talk page? That happened twice today after I asked him at least 3 times to stop. Been going on for years, even before the diff you say is beyond the pale. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oncenawhile should certainly stick to article talk pages to communicate with this editor, since it's plainly obvious their user talk page messages are not welcomed. El_C 01:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, but can you point out one actual personal attack? Not reference to an argument being pathetic or a position being border-line Islamophobic, but one ad hominem. El_C 23:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I provided the recent examples you asked for above, in case you missed it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Please note that there is a long history of these two editors] opposing my edits at the same time.
Drsmoo has been forum shopping these cherrypicked diffs for a long time, opening half a dozen or so ANIs and jumping in other discussions whenever possible. I have yet to respond in kind with a list of diffs regarding Drsmoo's (or NMMNG's) behaviour for that matter, but I will do if admins think worthwhile. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm just trying to figure out what happened today to prompt this... El_C 23:42, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's my statement at WP:ARCA. I am pushing for changes which will stop the exact tactics that these two editors use to counteract my edits. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, it's your multiple not-trying-to-improve-the-encyclopedia posts on my talk page after I asked you repeatedly to stop. Hopefully El_C will figure out what happened today (hint: this is the third time I explained it) and perhaps explain why that would even be relevant. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- No one is trying to specifically counteract your edits. You happen to make a lot of edits which are inaccurate, and then when reverted, drag things on for weeks/months while personally attacking everyone and/or ignoring consensus. Then you say that the other editor has been following you because of the number of edits. Feel free to post a list of diffs, I have no issue with that whatsoever and am confident that I've upheld the rules. Drsmoo (talk) 00:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- The tactic is simple. You or NMMNG revert an edit you don't like, I respond on talk by saying "your revert is incorrect because of xyz", then you simply avoid the question - either by silence or by diversion. This often upholds the letter of the rules, but there is an important distinction between the letter and spirit of the law. Hence the rules need to change to stop this behaviour from all editors who follow it, as it is damaging the encyclopedia. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Let's not bring ARBPIA into ANI, because nothing good will come of it. El_C 00:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, consensus decides that your edit was bad, you ignore consensus and personally attack everyone, everyone stops responding to you because you haven't established consensus for your edit and they aren't going to be bothered when your edits are so uncivil and they don't feel like being harassed and personally attacked. Drsmoo (talk) 00:39, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- If this was the case, you would not have avoided my request to point out where your sources support the sentence, despite me asking more than a dozen times. Ignoring it again and again with aspersions of consensus on a separate question is not going to make this go away. Oncenawhile (talk) 01:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- The tactic is simple. You or NMMNG revert an edit you don't like, I respond on talk by saying "your revert is incorrect because of xyz", then you simply avoid the question - either by silence or by diversion. This often upholds the letter of the rules, but there is an important distinction between the letter and spirit of the law. Hence the rules need to change to stop this behaviour from all editors who follow it, as it is damaging the encyclopedia. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- No one is trying to specifically counteract your edits. You happen to make a lot of edits which are inaccurate, and then when reverted, drag things on for weeks/months while personally attacking everyone and/or ignoring consensus. Then you say that the other editor has been following you because of the number of edits. Feel free to post a list of diffs, I have no issue with that whatsoever and am confident that I've upheld the rules. Drsmoo (talk) 00:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, it's your multiple not-trying-to-improve-the-encyclopedia posts on my talk page after I asked you repeatedly to stop. Hopefully El_C will figure out what happened today (hint: this is the third time I explained it) and perhaps explain why that would even be relevant. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm a bit surprised that NMMNG wasn't afraid of a BOOMERANG when bringing this case. For example are the comments he reports worse than what he wrote to Oncenawhile yesterday: "The reason I did not reply to your comment above, as you know from our dealings on other articles, is that I do not allow you to waste my time unless at least one other editor supports your position." [174]. Also, if you look at that section of the talk page, you will see that only Oncenawhile has made an argument for his position. So who behaved better there? Zerotalk 00:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see any issue with that comment whatsoever. Could be phrased differently, but all things considered is farily civil. Quite different from "Telling NMMNG not to attack another editor is like telling a child they can't have cake." Drsmoo (talk) 01:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I think both civility and a cooperative attitude would go a long way to make ARBPIA articles a less toxic place. El_C 01:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oncenawhile shouldn't have posted on NMMGG's page. Since I and NMMGG are utterly unable to agree on anything, we agreed not to post on each other's pages. It's common sense.That said, one index of what editors are doing in these conflicts is the interaction measure, which Oncenawhile applied to this case. If one looks closely at it, one, well, I for one, get the impression these are conflicts between a content/page builder, Oncenawhile, and editors who do a lot of reverting, or argufying on those pages. This kind of difference underlies much conflict, between builders and kibitzers. You can have poor builders of course, but they do actually work. The second index of what is really going on is to see which editors (the reverter-report type) are prone to prefer rushing to A/I or AE to 'denounce' the others, usually over trifles that look thin-skinned. One should of course strive for good manners, but one shouldn't be in the toxic I/P area if one doesn't have a tough hide or lacks patience. Nishidani (talk) 07:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oncenawhile shouldn't have posted on NMMGG's page. Since I and NMMGG are utterly unable to agree on anything, we agreed not to post on each other's pages. It's common sense. [175] took a while for that to take, but I'm glad you now think it's common sense.
- The second index of what is really going on is to see which editors (the reverter-report type) are prone to prefer rushing to A/I or AE to 'denounce' the others, usually over trifles that look thin-skinned. [176] [177] lol. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oncenawhile shouldn't have posted on NMMGG's page. Since I and NMMGG are utterly unable to agree on anything, we agreed not to post on each other's pages. It's common sense.That said, one index of what editors are doing in these conflicts is the interaction measure, which Oncenawhile applied to this case. If one looks closely at it, one, well, I for one, get the impression these are conflicts between a content/page builder, Oncenawhile, and editors who do a lot of reverting, or argufying on those pages. This kind of difference underlies much conflict, between builders and kibitzers. You can have poor builders of course, but they do actually work. The second index of what is really going on is to see which editors (the reverter-report type) are prone to prefer rushing to A/I or AE to 'denounce' the others, usually over trifles that look thin-skinned. One should of course strive for good manners, but one shouldn't be in the toxic I/P area if one doesn't have a tough hide or lacks patience. Nishidani (talk) 07:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Probably doesn't help that Once is constantly pushing a strong pro-arab stance.74.70.146.1 (talk) 09:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
As for discussions between Oncenawhile and NMMNG: after a certain point, discussion is useless when people aren't going to agree. By the same token, NMMNG shouldn't simply revert without giving a reason, as they did here; if someone is allowed to block something simply because they don't like it, WP cannot work. WP:3O is a good way to get informal opinions to break impasses, and RfCs should be considered as well. Also, one or the other can simply let it go. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:31, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- To reiterate, Oceanwhile should know by now they they are not welcome on NMMNG user talk page, so posting there (anything) can be seen as provocation. At the same time, on the article and article talk page space, they are both expected to conduct themsleves professionally. And of course, I would hope for all reverts to be well-reasoned—otherwise, there's a risk that the consensus clause will be used to grind, not just edit wars but editing itself, to a halt. El_C 18:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @El C: I must have the ability to post notifications on his page, to make him aware of conversations elsewhere. For example, as required at WP:ANI, WP:RM, WP:AFD and WP:DISCFAIL. Oncenawhile (talk) 06:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unless specifically required to by process, (ANI notification for example) if someone tells you to stay off their talk page, you stay off their talk page. No discussions about articles, no complaining about reverts they have made of your edits. Otherwise you risk getting an interaction ban with the user which you given your editing area, would not like very much. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- I already told him explicitly that he may post administrative stuff he's required to inform me about on my page. He's just wasting everyone's time again. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hidden in an edit comment from 18 months ago (in which you also attacked my edit as "pathetic", see discussion above).
- Another misrepresentation. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:18, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- I already told him explicitly that he may post administrative stuff he's required to inform me about on my page. He's just wasting everyone's time again. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Unless specifically required to by process, (ANI notification for example) if someone tells you to stay off their talk page, you stay off their talk page. No discussions about articles, no complaining about reverts they have made of your edits. Otherwise you risk getting an interaction ban with the user which you given your editing area, would not like very much. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- @El C: I must have the ability to post notifications on his page, to make him aware of conversations elsewhere. For example, as required at WP:ANI, WP:RM, WP:AFD and WP:DISCFAIL. Oncenawhile (talk) 06:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
User talk:Bruce1997
| (non-admin closure) Blocked by Someguy1221.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This editor has created 5 duplicate articles, some of which have been CSD. These articles are unsourced, make little sense, and attempt to promote some French mosquito fighter. Bruce contested deletion by posting this poor excuse on his talk page. I believe this editor is NOTHERE and should be blocked.
- Current Articles include
- Anti-Mosquito Innovation
- Anti-Mosquito The new generation is coming
- User:Bruce1997/sandbox His sandbox from which he copies all these articles. L3X1(distant write) 02:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Notified. L3X1(distant write) 02:28, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- And block. Bruce has stated his purpose here is to promote this person and his work, and he doesn't seem interested in actually communicating with people, except to tell them that they're wrong. He can have his editing privs back if he can demonstrate an understanding of Wikipedia. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:33, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. L3X1 (distant write) 02:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- And block. Bruce has stated his purpose here is to promote this person and his work, and he doesn't seem interested in actually communicating with people, except to tell them that they're wrong. He can have his editing privs back if he can demonstrate an understanding of Wikipedia. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:33, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Can you Someguy1221 or some other admin close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Mosquito Innovation? XfDcloser won't let me close it as delete.L3X1(distant write) 02:40, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Done. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Notified. L3X1(distant write) 02:28, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Request for block
| Denied. El_C 06:41, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please block me - it's a good idea to protect Wikipedia from the edits I might well decide to make. 68.232.71.82 (talk) 03:09, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please provide diffs for your controversial edits and we will determine whether or not they are in violation of policy.--WaltCip (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Looks like a sock wants attention… L3X1(distant write) 03:17, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, for example this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE - whoever was behind it obviously has an agenda and should not be allowed to edit Wikipedia. 68.232.71.82 (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Still, the point I am making is that I myself have not made any controversial edits, BUT I MIGHT WELL D IF NOT BLOCKED. 68.232.71.82 (talk) 03:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Don't push the big red button...TJH2018talk 03:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Their talk page makes for... interesting? reading. — O Fortuna! Imperatrix mundi. 06:05, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Don't push the big red button...TJH2018talk 03:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Looks like a sock wants attention… L3X1(distant write) 03:17, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- This IP address may have been used by sock master User:CrazyAces489 (User:BlackAmerican when he attempts to go through the standard offer) by looking at the talk page. Could it be a different person?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:21, 28 March 2017 (UTC)The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Inaccurate information inserted on Meir Einstein
If you look at the history of Meir Einstein, you will see 2 IPs inserted information about Meir Einstein without providing a source; I didn't find the information they inserted in any news source, so I've removed it twice. I'm not sure what to do if the information is inserted a third time, because that may be considered edit warring on my part. Ethanbas (talk) 23:19, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Removing unsourced contentious BLP claims (he just died, so BLP fully applies) is exempt from WP:3RR. You are fine. --MASEM (t) 23:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK thanks. How long does BLP last for after a person has died? Does it cease applying only for historical figures (however that may be defined)? Ethanbas (talk) 23:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- OK: "Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. Even absent confirmation of death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years ago is presumed dead unless reliable sources confirm the person to have been living within the past two years." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Recently_dead_or_probably_deadEthanbas(talk) 23:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)