위키백과:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1021

Wikipedia:
알림판 아카이브
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기타 링크

사용자:Vane323

10월 9일부터 나는 Lo que la vida me robo 기사의 사용자 베인323의 버전을 되돌리기 시작했다.이후 베인323이 추가하는 콘텐츠에 대해 오랜 분쟁을 일으켰다.내가 여러 번 되돌렸고, 그의 토론에서 메시지를 남기지만, 사용자는 메시지에 응답하지 않고 편집 요약을 사용하여 나와 대화한다.나는 이미 그에게 어떤 등장인물을 누가 죽였는지와 관련없는 정보를 더하는 것을 그만두라고 요구했지만, 그는 멈추지 않는다.-- 브래드포드 16:04, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]

WP 관련 도움말:IDHT, WP:NPAWP:IP에서 INKIVAL 동작

일단 버뮤다가 나 자신으로부터의 반전에 대응하여 104.218.174.219 (토크 · 기여 · WHOIS)로부터 편집전쟁으로 보호받았을 때(나도 너무 많은 반전을 한 것을 인정한다, 나는 기존의 논의를 언급하고 그 이후의 되돌림 편집 요약은 완전히 무효라고 생각했다), 그리고 궁극적으로 RPP를 만든 그랜드 망상(Grand Metausion)으로 인해 보호되었다.IP 편집자는 나에게 근거 없는 비난을 하기 위해 기사 토크 페이지로 뛰어들었다.

IP의 토크 페이지에 2개의 명시적인 NPA 경고와 3개의 기사 토크 페이지에서 몇 가지 근거 없는 비난/인신공격에 대한 중단 요청에도 불구하고:

  1. 경고 1 및 다음에 대한 NPA 1 중지 요청:
    • 인신공격1길
      • 역추적; 사용자가 6개월 동안 수많은 권위 있는 출처를 의도적으로 무시한 채 잘못된 정보의 기괴한 캠페인을 벌였다.
    • 2-4 인신공격 1:
      • 당신은 지금 순전히 잘못된 정보의 의도적인 캠페인으로서 정확하고, 출처된 진술들을 제거하고 있다.
      • 대신, 그러한 것을 무시하고, 다른 사용자들을 저격하고 페이지를 형편없이 소싱되지 않은, 노골적으로 잘못된 주장으로 되돌리기를 선택한다.
      • 당신의 나쁜 믿음은 다른 사용자들이 당신의 편집 내용을 수정하지 못하도록 막는 일종의 시도로서 대화 페이지를 사용하라고 요구하는 것은 역겹다.
  2. 경고 2 및 다음에 대한 NPA 2 중지 요청:
    • 인신공격 5-7 in rant 2:
      • 지난 6개월 동안 이 사이트에 다른 편집자들과 실제로 접촉하는 것을 계속 거절한 것은 한심하다.
      • 당신은 당신에게 제공된 인구 수치에 대한 다수의 권위 있는 출처를 반박하거나 심지어 인정하려고 시도하지 않고 대신 당신의 편집을 통해 계속해서 강요했다.
      • 그것은 분명히 너에게 충분히 우스꽝스러운 일일 것이다.
  3. 다음에 대한 NPA 3 중지 요청:
    • 인신공격 8-11 3:
      • 나는 당신이 당신에게 제공된 모든 자료를 계속 무시하는 것을 본다.
      • 당신은 당신이 토론에 참여하고 있다고 주장한다. 어디? (Moreso WP:NPA보다 IDHT)
      • 당신은 당신에게 제기된 질문, 제안 또는 아이디어에 응답하지 않고, 대신 당신의 답변은 단순히 모든 페이지에 당신의 출처를 사용해야 한다는 당신의 주장을 붙여넣는 것에 지나지 않는다.
      • 언급했듯이...반복해서... 알고 당신은 당신은 이러한 출처를 6개월 동안 알고 있으면서 아무 말도 하지 않았다. 당신은 분명히 그렇게 하는 것에 관심이 없다.그것은 공감대를 형성하는 것이 아니다.

이러한 비난은 다른 편집자와 나의 토크 페이지에 있는 과거 시민 토론의 엄청난 오자로부터 나온다.IP의 고함소리는 인신공격(WP:WIAPA #5), 그리고 중지 요청에도 불구하고 끈질기게.콘텐츠 문제는 진정한 토론 주제지만 IP는 내가 과거에 제기했던 지적들에 대해 사실상의 대화를 거부하고 대신 '통행' '오보' '거절' '애착' '편집 강요' 등을 반복적으로 허위 고발을 한다.

귀찮게 해서 미안해.나는 아마도 왜 그러한 비난들이 거짓인지에 대해 상세히 설명하고 IP의 두 번째 소문에 제시된 출처를 설명하는데 더 많은 시간을 할애할 수 있었을 것이다. 그러나 나는 예의는 첫 번째 또는 두 번째 경고에 의해 제공되었을 것이라고 생각했다.IP는 편집 전쟁 경고, NPA 경고, 그리고 고발 중지 요청에 대해 어떠한 언급도 하지 않았다.마크H21 (대화) 03:04, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

말레이시아 IP 공격 싱가포르인

WP의 보관 링크를 참조하십시오.ANI: [2][3][4]

이해할 수 없는 인신공격에 의한 반달리즘.건담5447 (대화) 15:09, 2019년 10월 5일 (UTC)[응답]

이 두 사람을 48시간 동안 차단한 것은--Ymblanter (대화) 15:29, 2019년 10월 5일 (UTC)[응답]
@Ymblanter:이는 장기적인 문제(AN과 ANI에서 "2001:d08"을 검색)로, 장기적인 범위 블록으로부터 이익을 얻을 수 있다고 생각한다.위키백과에서:관리자 알림판/IncidentArchive1019#Malayasian IP 공격, 2001:d08::/32 내에서 (256개 중) /40개 범위를 식별했다.나는 이 사용자가 계정을 만들어야 하는 그 범위의 다른 사용자에게 발생할 수 있는 어떤 불편함보다 다른 IP를 공격함으로써 더 많은 피해를 입힌다고 생각한다.IIRC, 그들은 또한 싱가포르 텔레비전 쇼에 대한 많은 비지원적인, 대부분 중국어로 편집된 것을 수행하는데, 나는 어떤 종류의 검증도 받지 않을 것이라고 생각한다.—[AlanM1(토크)]—16:45, 2019년 10월 5일 (UTC)[응답]
문제에 대해서는 잘 알고 있지만, 범위 블록으로부터 부수적인 피해의 영향을 더 잘 추정할 수 있는 관리자에게 범위 블록을 맡기는 것이 좋다.--Ymblanter (대화) 18:54, 2019년 10월 5일 (UTC)[응답]

불분명한 인신공격에 의한 반달리즘.내가 경고해도 IP 주소는 변경되고 반복된다.건담5447 (대화) 09:33, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

지속적인 사칭에 의한 반달리즘.내가 경고해도 IP 주소는 변경되고 반복된다.건담5447 (대화) 13:44, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

반달리즘의 물결이 밀려오다

2017년 영화 '저스티스 리그'와 스나이더 컷(Snyder Cut)이라는 버전의 존재에 대한 팬 논란이 일고 있다.분명히 하드코어 스나이더 컷 팬들은 위키피디아가 그것에 대해 말하는 것을 좋아하지 않는다. 왜냐하면 스나이더 컷 트위터는 현재 그들이 선호하는 관점으로 기사를 바꾸기 위해 가능한 한 많은 사람들에게 단일 목적 계정을 만들 을 촉구하고 있기 때문이다.

하나의 IP 편집기 2405:204:5702:ABC2:0:0:130D:18A4(토크 · 기여 · WHOIS)는 이미 당에 가입했다.나는 Justice League의 반보호를 요청하고 Talk에 다음과 같이 통보했다.무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 저스티스 리그(영화)가 알려준다.나는 관리자들이 두 페이지를 모두 주시할 것을 권하고 싶다.다크나이트2149 17:11, 2019년 10월 12일(UTC)[응답]

그리고 여기에 방금 가입한 또 다른 단일 목적의 계정이 있다 - Bjthegeek (대화 기여삭제기여 핵연료 기여로그 필터 로그 • 사용자 • 블록 로그)거의 모든 편집이 그들이 좋아하지 않는 정보를 Version of Justice League에서 제거하려고 시도하고 있으며 그들은 "운동"의 일부라고 주장한다.그들은 또한 이러한 편집과 전쟁을 했던 이력이 있다.분명히 WP:COI. 다크나이트2149 07:17, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 그것이 통제할 수 없게 된다면, 우리는 WP를 사용할 수 있다.ECP. 닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 14:51, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

사용자 대화:냐포 앤드루

이것만 읽어봐.Nwafor Andrew는 카피비오 이미지를 반복해서 업로드했다.게다가 그는 앤드류에게 자신의 자서전을 계속해서 재현하고 있다.그는 여러 차례 경고를 받았지만 상의도 없이 계속 경고를 받았다.다시 한번, 그의 토크 페이지를 읽어봐.From AnUnnameUser 23:35, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]

그래도 그건 사칭이 아닐까?From AnUnnameUser 02:39, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]
부적절한 새로운 페이지 위키백과:NattyB는 아직 연락을 하지 않았다.From AnUnnameUser 21:29, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
그 페이지는 그가 그의 사용자들과 사용자들의 대화 페이지를 위키백과 공간으로 옮긴 곳이었다.내가 그 동작을 풀었어.C.Fred (대화) 23:04, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

작전 평화 봄/2019 로자바 공격의 전투 편집

이 페이지는 현재 시리아 내전의 일환으로 지역사회 제재를 받고 있으며, 나는 24시간마다 1명의 로그인 사용자 회귀를 제한하고 있다고 들었다.

다양한 주제[특히 페이지 이름]에 대해 상당한 이견이 있는 것으로 나타나 사용자 User_talk:A4516416, 사용자:Taking interest01, 사용자:Sakura_Cartelet 및 IP address User_talk:86.50.68.196이 1회 되돌리기/일 제한을 초과하는 것으로 나타난다.

나는 문제의 회수가 명백한 반달리즘인지에 대해 논평할 자격이 없다고 생각하는데, 따라서 행정관은 그것을 이상적으로 정리해야 한다고 생각한다.레이네2 (대화) 05:59, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]

어느 페이지도 {{Editnotice SCW 1RR} 편집 노트가 존재하지 않아, 지금 추가했다.관련 사용자에게도 경고하겠다.그러나 사용자는 이러한 제한사항을 알지 못했을 수 있다.ST47 (대화) 07:00, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]
자연스럽게 양쪽 모두 즉시 1RR을 다시 끊는다.이대로 가다간 기사를 온전히 보호하겠다.ST47 (토크) 07:30, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답하라]
아니, 그렇게 눈에 띄는 기사를 완전히 보호하는 것보다 블록을 발행하는 것이 더 낫다.주: 나는 이미 일주일 동안 그 기사를 반자동화했다.El_C 16:30, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]

2019년 터키군의 시리아 북동부 공세에 대해 다른 재량권 제재 요청

안녕하십니까, 2019년 시리아 북동부로의 터키 공세시리아 내전과 이슬람국가 이라크 레반트와 관련된 모든 페이지에 로그인사용자를 되돌릴 24시간 제한에 1회 되돌리기로 한 제한이라는 커뮤니티 제재를 받고 있다.나는 편집자들이 진행중인 전투에 관한 기사에 실시간 업데이트를 추가할 때 그러한 제재는 해롭다고 말하고 싶다.추가는 단지 1RR을 압도한다.그 증거로 슬레이터스트는 우리는 대화 페이지에 생방송 뉴스가 아니라고까지 언급했는데, 에코그래프는 지난 7년 동안 시리아전 공격이나 전투 지속된 영토나 사상자의 포획에 대해 당신이 말한 것처럼 생방송 업데이트를 제공했다고 답변했다. 우리는 또한 이전 두 번의 터키군의 시리아 공격 때도 같은 행동을 했다. 그래서 지금도 그렇게 하지 않을 이유가 없다.나는 우리가 논란이 되고 있는 자료의 복구에 필요한 다른 제재, 아마도 3RR과 합의점이 필요하다고 생각한다.starship.paint (talk) 00:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]

@El C, ST47, 레이네2: 위에 코멘트한 사람. starship.paint (토크) 05:25, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]
또 빨간 글씨로 안 돼. 내 불쌍한!그나저나, 새로운 제재가 그 대신 어떤 DS로 적용될 것으로 예상하셨나요?가장 적절한 제한은 현행 SCW 일반 제재에 해당될 것으로 보인다.나는 대신에 1RR을 제거하고 필요한 합의를 적용하는 것에 반대하지 않는다.El_C 05:46, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
텍스트 색상 변경에 감사(데자뷰!El_C 05:55, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
네, 터키/SDF가 참가하고 있기 때문에 시리아 내전에 해당되는 것 같은데...starship.paint (talk) 06:00, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]
엄밀히 말하면, 나는 어떻게 수정해야 할지조차 잘 모르겠어. {{Editnotice SCW 1RR}}.대체될 수 있을 것 같아...(?) El_C 06:33, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
어쨌든 GS를 적용한 ST47이 체중이 실릴 때까지 미루고 싶다.El_C 06:42, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
비록 내가 일반적으로 경찰에게 1RR보다 더 많은 "게이밍"을 허용하고 있다고 생각하지만, 필요한 합의는 괜찮다.그러나, 이것은 관리자가 주어진 물품에 제재를 가할 수 있는 AE 재량적 제재와는 다르다.SCW/ISIL 1RR은 ARBPIA 1RR과 마찬가지로 자동이며, 이를 변경하기 위해서는 합의가 필요하다.그래, 편집통지서와 대화공지 템플릿을 업데이트해서 이걸 지원해야 해. 전에는 그런 적이 없었던 것 같거든.ST47 (대화) 06:46, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
필자가 "합의가 필요하다"는 것은 방해가 될 수 있다는 데 동의하는 바지만, 아무리 사소한 것이든 일시적인 것이든 터키 언론의 모든 발표를 즉각적으로 게재하는 경향에 대처할 수 있는 유일한 방법이라고 생각한다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 08:50, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

그리고 "그러나 우리는 최신 뉴스로 업데이트해야 한다, 모두 구식이다"의 최근 시리즈는 1RRR을 무의미하게 만든다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 14:33, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

음, 어떤 이의도 없었고 슬레이터스븐의 요점이 보였으므로, 우리는 현재 사건에 대한 실시간 업데이트로 인해 표준 1RR 제한이 지나치게 해로운 2019년 시리아 북동부에 대한 터키 공세와 관련된 기사에 대해, 관리자가 일시적으로 1R 제한을 표준 계약으로 대체할 수 있다.엔서스 필수 조항. 1RR 조항은 해당 기사가 더 이상 빈번한 업데이트를 받지 못하게 되면 다시 복구되어야 한다.@El C:, @Slattersteven:, @Starship.paint:, 모든 사람에게 합당한 소리로 들리는가?템플릿 업데이트에 대해 알아보겠다.ST47 (대화) 20:47, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
좋아.El_C 21:00, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
이의 없음. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 나는 반대한다.이것은 정확히 WP 아래 1RR가 필요한 종류의 기사다.GS/SCW&ISIL 정권.편집자 간 갈등의 가능성이 높고, 분쟁에서 관련 당사자들 간의 정보 전쟁 속에서 생산된 라이브 업데이트는 신뢰할 수 없을 것 같다.위키피디아는 뉴스 웹사이트가 아니다.우선순위는 WP:VWP:NPOV, 그리고 이러한 것들은 특히 그러한 논란이 많은 주제에 대해 더 느린 편집 속도에 의해 도움을 받는다.편집자들은 편집에 대한 의견 일치를 얻는다면 여전히 1RR 체제 하에서 기사를 갱신할 수 있을 것이다.지금까지 SCW&ISIL 기사 중 1RR에 대한 예외를 요구하는 기사가 하나도 없다면, 왜 이 기사가 되어야 하는가?RGlucester — 인터뷰 21:11, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
    @RGlucester:, 문제는 일부 편집자들이 다른 편집자들이 중립적이거나 신뢰할 수 없다고 반대하는 소스를 사용하여 실시간 업데이트를 제공하는 것으로 보인다. 1RR은 각각의 개별 편집자들이 다른 사실을 업데이트하기 위해 다른 소스를 사용하기 때문에 그 정보를 삽입하는 편집자들의 속도를 늦추지 않고 있다.그러나, 이러한 일은 하루에 여러 번 기사의 여러 섹션에 걸쳐 발생하기 때문에, 편집자들이 POV/신뢰할 수 없는 정보를 기사에 포함시키지 않는 실질적인 방법은 없다. 그들은 하루에 한 번 되돌리는 것을 빨리 지우기 때문이다.간단히 말해서, 1RR의 기본 상태는 각각의 새로운 편집(이 편집이 삽입되고 매일 1회 되돌리기를 원하지 않거나, 삽입, 되돌리고, 되돌리기를 원하지 않음)과 Consensus Required, 논란이 되는 편집의 기본 상태는 합의 없이 포함되지 않는 것이 아니다.ST47 (대화) 21:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
WP에 따르면 이 문제에 대한 분명한 해결책이 있다.GS/SCW&ISIL.새 계정 또는 IP가 많은 경우 해당 문서를 반비례하십시오.기존 편집자일 경우 중립적이거나 신뢰할 수 없는 내용을 반복적으로 삽입하는 사람에 대해서는 주제발표를 금지한다.NPOV/신뢰성에 문제가 있을 때 제한을 완화하지 말고 기존 제재를 적용하십시오!RGlucester — 인터뷰 21:45, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
@RGlucester: - 터키에 관한 기사에서 터키어 출처를 사용하는 편집자들을 금지시키는 주제를 다룰 것인가?그냥 물어보는 것. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]
나는 그러한 행동에 반대한다, 정말로 해야 할 일은 wp:not news를 집행하는 것이다.한 가지 방법은 사용자당 하루에 한 번 편집한다고 말하는 것이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 09:13, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
ST47은 편집자들이 신뢰할 수 없거나 중립적이지 않은 소스를 반복적으로 삽입하고 있다고 말했다.만약 그렇다면, 그렇다, 그것들은 금지되어야 한다.만약 그들이 이것을 하지 않는다면, 그들의 편집은 문제가 되지 않으며, 이 논의에는 전혀 이유가 없으며, 확실히 1RR을 들어올릴 이유도 없다.제재를 가하는 관리자들이 이러한 편집이 문제인지 아닌지에 대한 결정을 내리고 만약 그렇다면, 그러한 편집이 이루어지는 것을 막아야 한다.위키피디아에 적합하지 않은 내용으로 기사가 채워지는 동안 그들은 그저 냉담하고 중립적인 척만 할 수는 없다.RGlucester 인터뷰 09:18, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

다른 관리자가 유료 편집자를 맡아 주시겠습니까?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

유료 편집의 현실과 사용자에게 법적 위협을 설명하려는 경우:그들의 대화 페이지에 있는 fgb마케팅.가 지금까지 받은 유일한 답장은 이 꽤 놀라운 편집 요약이다.법적 위협과 유료 편집, 그리고 그들이 스스로를 '나'(역할 계정을 제안)가 아닌 '우리'라고 부르는 방식에도 불구하고, 나는 지금까지 차단하지 않았다.분명히 사용자들은 우리의 규칙을 알지 못하며, 설명을 필요로 한다.긍정적인 것은 그들이 지금까지 나를 다시 되돌리지 않았다는 것이다.어쨌든, 중요한 건, 그들이 침묵하고 있다는 거야. 그리고 난 자러 가야 해.난 완전히 다른 시간대에 있어.누가 대신 좀 해줄래?비쇼넨 토크 22:14, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)PS, "인수"는 단지 그들의 페이지를 보고 퍼스트 보증 은행을 보는 것을 의미한다.비쇼넨 토크 22:39, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[답답하다]

잠깐 눈독을 들이고 있어. 331닷 (토크) 23:06, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
이 계정과 그 기여도에 대한 여러 가지 심각한 문제들로 인해 나는 편집자를 무한정 차단했다.컬렌렛328 2019년 10월 15일 00:35, (UTC) 토론하자[응답하라]
나는 은행이 인종 차별의 혐의를 부인하는 것을 퍼스트 보증 은행에 추가했고 자료를 중립적인 관점에 더 가까이 가져가기 위해 복사본 편집을 했다.그 기사에 대한 다른 시선이 도움이 될 것이다.컬렌렛328 01:30, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC) 토론하자[응답하라]
방금 사소한 트윗 하나 더 했어.닉 모예스 (대화) 08:03, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

가브리엘캣의 WP:소유권 문제

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Gabrielkat(대화 기여 삭제된 기여 • 핵 기여 로그 필터 로그 블록 사용자 블록 로그)WP를 통해 다음과 같은 이점을 얻었다.현재 최소 4년 동안 소유권 문제 발생(이 이슈를 다른 편집자 파트 3 1년 이상 전의 다른 편집자와 함께 참조.2015년 이런 행태로 인해 차단됐고, 자신의 토크 페이지에서 '최종 경고'를 받았다.하지만, 그의 행동은 수년간 지속되어 왔고 겉보기에는 변하지 않았다.나는 이 편집자와 자주 마주치지 않는다. 비록 그가 내 감시목록의 한 페이지에서 비슷한 반전을 할 것이라고 기억한다.그는 편집자를 되돌렸다가 몇 분 후에 똑같이 정확하게 편집했다.그는 2015년 먼저 한 다른 사용자를 되돌릴 때 "주간 에피소드 수를 업데이트하겠다"고 말했다.나는 최근에 우연히 이 같은 이슈에 대한 토크 페이지 대화를 우연히 발견했고 아직도 그런 일이 벌어지고 있다는 것을 믿을 수 없었다. 그래서 나는 편집자가 거의 5년 전 소유권 문제가 심각하기 때문에 이 편집자에 의해 부당하게 번복된 다른 사용자들을 대신해서 보고서를 제출하는 것이다.가장 최근의 사건은 그가 IP를 되돌리지만 정확히 같은 순간에 그 정보를 스스로 복구하는 것이다.편집자들이 편집하고 싶어하지 않게 만드는 이 고질적인 행동에 대해 뭔가 조치를 취해야 할 필요가 있다; IP가 토크 페이지에 "는 이 페이지를 편집하기 위한 시간 낭비인 또 다른 페이지로 주목하겠다."라고 쓴 것처럼 말이다.Drivethrughosts (대화) 18:53, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 종종 그가 IP 편집기를 가지고 했던 것과 같은 동일한 정보를 단지 나중에 읽기 위해 다른 편집자들을 되돌린다는 것을 발견했다.그는 자신의 토크 페이지에서 자신의 행동을 거론하는 사람은 누구든 되돌릴 것이기 때문에 자신의 행동을 토론하거나 인정하려는 의지를 보이지 않는다.지난 4월, 그는 시즌 피날레가 방영되면서 오르빌 시즌 2 페이지를 업데이트한 다른 편집자를 다시 기용했지만, 그를 위한 "에피소드가 방송을 끝내지 못했기" 때문에 편집자를 복귀시키기로 결정했다.내가 편집을 복원했을 때, 그도 나를 위해 똑같이 했다.나는 그의 토크페이지에서 토론하려고 노력했지만 재빨리 되돌아갔다.[5] 재미있는 것은, 그가 몇 분 후에 같은 정보를 추가했다는 것인데, 이것은 또 다시 그의 입장에서의 나쁜 믿음의 편집이다.이것은 그에게 매우 긴 현안인 것 같다.에스카(토크) 19:38, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
이 일은 이미 충분히 오래되었다.난 가브리엘캣을 무기한 차단해줬어 몇 년간 지속된 행동에 대한 해결책이 나올 때까지 말이야닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 20:18, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
잘했다.나는 그들이 차단되지 않은 요청에서 다른 사용자들과의 의사소통을 적극적으로 개선하기 위한 일환으로 향후 편집 요약을 사용할 것을 희망한다.그들의 주요 편집의 거의 72%는 편집 요약을 가지고 있지 않으며, 이것은 변경될 필요가 있다.근거도 없이 되돌리는 것은 무례하기도 하고 비건설적이기도 하다.닉 모예스 (대화) 20:27, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
(비관리자 의견)위키피디아가 공표된 장기적 관점 대신에 최신의 정확성을 필요로 하는 것으로 취급하는 사람들의 결과로서 매일 일어나는 말도 안 되는 일들이 많이 있다.만약 우리가 텔레비전 방송, 웹 시리즈, 음악 이벤트 등에 대한 최신 방송 시간 이후 적어도 24시간까지 보도하지 않는 정책을 시행하고 정착한다면, 이러한 초고속 편집-전쟁의 많은 부분이 사라질 것이다(또는 최소한 기댈 객관적 기준을 가지고 있다).뉴스 이벤트(즉, 전쟁)에서도 마찬가지인데, 사람들이 어떤 블로그나 트윗의 모든 코멘트에 대해 보고하기를 원하는 것은 완전히 비정부적인 세부사항이다.거기다가 홍보에 대한 헛소리와 노골적인 공공 기물 파손의 끝없는 흐름도 더해져라.매일, 나는 많은 사람들의 선한 의지와 재능, 노력의 낭비를 한탄하며 의미 있는 기여가 거의 전혀 없는 변화 역사를 본다.그냥 여기서 뭐 하는 거야?—[AlanM1(대화)]— 10:04, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 AlanM1에 동의한다.그러나 주요 상계 추세는 시간이 지남에 따라 최신 정보가 결국 백과사전적인 것에 초점을 맞추도록 다듬어지고 해독된다는 것이다.어떤 주제를 이해하기 위해 미래에 무엇이 중요할 것인지, 단지 최근주의일 뿐이라는 것을 말하는 것은 수정구 없이 어려울 수 있지만, 다행히 이것은 언제나 고정될 수 있다. 107.77.203.73 (대화) 13:27, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:저스틴86e

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕, 존경하는 sysops.😊 WP에서 이 문제를 제기하는 이유는 다음과 같다.AIV 및 존경받는 sysop 사용자의 대화 페이지:디안나는 결론을 내리지 못했다.

사용자:Justin86e는 현재 31시간 동안 업무 중단 편집이 차단되어 있다.그러나 그 일이 일어나기 이틀 전, 나는 이 사용자가 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니라는 것을 알아차렸다. 왜냐하면 그의 편집은 오로지 파괴 행위, 혼란, 파괴 행위, 날조, 그리고 자기반복적인 나쁜 행동들로 이루어져 있기 때문이다.그의 기록에는 좋은 공헌이 하나도 없다.따라서 영구차단이 질서정연하다.그러나 WP의 미미한 수준 때문에:스니키 그의 행동에서, 그들의 해로움은 즉각적으로 명백하지 않다.다음은 AIV를 위해 준비한 보고서의 확장 버전이다.

사용자 편집 시마다 요약:
디프 영향을 받는 물건 간단한 요약, 처음에 AIV에 게시됨 확장 설명
[6] DVD 플레이어(윈도우즈) Windows Media Player(윈도우 미디어 플레이어) 문서에서 복사한 관련 없는 콘텐츠 이것은 모두에게 명백해야 한다.한 소프트웨어 제품의 릴리스 테이블은 연결되지 않은 다른 소프트웨어 제품의 문서에 속하지 않는다.
[7] 웹OS 관련 없는 탐색 상자의 폭격 이 기사에 관여하지 않는 Navbox는 한 번이 아니라 두 번 추가된다!이 거짓된 행위를 위장하기 위해, 네비박스들은 그들의 제목이 당면한 주제와 가장 최소한의 연관성을 갖도록 선택된다.따라서, 그것을 진짜 편집으로 오인하기 쉽다.
[8] 드림웍스 주요 내용 대체 조작 이 페이지는 다음과 같이 표시되어야 한다: [9].저스틴86e는 페이지를 이렇게 만들었다. [10]
[11] 제작사 다른 곳에서 복사한 콘텐츠 이 사용자는 기사 중간에 임의의 장소를 선정하여 거기에 제목 "A"를 만든 후, A로 시작하는 많은 링크를 삽입하는 작업을 진행하였다.위에서 아래로 그 기사 수정본을 커서로 스캔하면 다음과 같은 내용이 나타난다. [12]
[13] 미국의 공중파 텔레비전 방송 목록 사용자가 되돌린 유치한 콘텐츠 꾸며내기:미세스킴프 여기서 편집자는 적절한 링크를 부적절한 링크로 교체했지만 부주의한 정밀 조사를 피할 수 있는 방식으로 대체했다.그가 '연방통신위원회'(FBI)와 '(FCC)' 사이에 '연방통신위원회(FBI) 연방수사국'(FCC)을 끼워넣어 '연방통신위원회 연방수사국'(FCC)으로 둔갑시킨 경위에 주목한다.또한 월트 디즈니 텔레비전월트 디즈니 회사는 둘 다 회사지만 이 두 회사를 바꾸는 것은 거의 적절하지 않다.
[14] 국제 BBC 텔레비전 채널 유치한 콘텐츠 꾸며내기 임의의 텍스트 조각, "[폭스 네트워크 그룹] []ITV plc] [[BBC Worldwide]]"는 "RTL"과 (20%) 사이에 삽입된다.
[15] 2 엔터테인먼트 가짜내용 이것은 결과를 보지 않는 한 사실 더 보기 어렵다.[16] 다음 문장을 큰 소리로 읽어 보십시오.

2 엔터테인먼트는 1950년대 영화 제작사 런던에 본사를 둔 영국 텔레비전 제작사였다.TPA는 2004년 BBC Video and Video Collection International이 합병하여 결성된 영국의 비디오 및 음악 출판사다.

아마도 비반달화 버전은 당신에게 더 온전하게 보일 것이다: 😉

2 엔터테인먼트는 2004년 BBC Video and Video Collection International이 합병하여 결성된 영국의 비디오 및 음악 출판사다.

[17] 기업 자산 목록 사용자가 되돌린 오해의 소지가 있는 문구를 유치하게 추가:미세스킴프 이것은 보기 더 쉽다.예를 들어, 편집자는 "Belo, United States"를 "United States, United States, Belo, United States"로 변경했지만, 전자는 희망적이다.그런 나쁜 행동에는 여섯 가지 사례가 있다.
[18] 픽사 영화 목록 등록되지 않은 편집기에서 되돌린 가짜 이름 추가 윌 아넷은 진정으로 라타투유의 일부였지만 시나리오 작가로서의 역량은 아니었다.그는 칼 호스트라는 성우였다.
[19] 필름 링크 조작 파이프를 통해 미국으로 가야 할 링크를 위장하여 대신 미국의 국기로 이동하십시오.이 두 가지 주제의 폐쇄성은 탐지를 어렵게 만든다.
[20] 캐나다의 국장 링크 조작 영국, 영국, 스코틀랜드로 연결되는 링크를 영국 국기, 영국 왕립 암스(Royal Arms of England), 영국 왕립 배너(Royal Banner of England), 스코틀랜드 왕립 배너(Royal Banner of Scotland)로 바꿔 파이프를 통해 위장한다.
[21] 헬멧(헤럴드) 사소한 장난 "Ambers of Canada"라는 문구는 관련 없는 곳에 무작위로 삽입된다.
[22] 3 (동음이의) 사용자가 반환한 보조 링크 조작:브콘라드 제정신인 사람이라면 영국의 "채널 3"이 "ITV(해체)"와 연관되어 있지 않고 "ITV(TV 네트워크)"와 연관되어 있다는 것을 알 것으로 예상된다.
[23] 미국의 국기 역사 사소한 장난(링크 제거) 무작위로 링크를 제거하는 건 여전히 공공 기물 파손 행위야, 그렇지?
[24] 캐나다의 군주제 무해한 잘못된 편집, 사용자에 의해 되돌림:굿데이 그냥 차이점만 봐.

일반적으로 우리는 ANI에 그들의 사건을 가지고 올 때 피고의 당사자들에게 통지해야 하지만, 나는 위키피디아의 문제로서 다음과 같이 생각한다.되돌리고, 막고, 무시하고, 이번에는 그렇게 하면 안 된다.

나와 함께 있으면서 이 지루한 테이블을 읽어줘서 고마워.👍

흐르는 꿈 (대화 페이지) 13:53, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

전자, 통신 및 미국과 관련된 모든 주제에 대한 지지의 막힘 또는 주제 금지는 광범위하게 해석된다.이 편집자는 분명히 백과사전을 짓기 위해 여기 있는 것이 아니며, 그의 편집은 보고 편집자가 지적한 대로 골치 아픈 정도로 미묘하다.나는 이 정도의 미묘한 공공 기물 파괴 행위가 영향을 받은 물품의 품질과 유용성을 떨어뜨리면서 항바이러스제 패트롤러의 고지를 벗어나는 것을 볼 수 있다.107.77.203.73.73이 추가된 이전의 부호 없는 의견(토크기여)
  • 무기한 차단.OP는 이것이 미묘하고 악의적인 반달이라고 가정하지만, 내가 받는 인상이 아니다; 그것들은 WP의 사례와 더 흡사하다.게는 CIR.노골적인 반달은 건설적인 편집을 하지 않는 경향이 있는데, 이것은 (IMO) 저스틴86e의 경우가 아니다.그러나, 혼란스러운 기사들의 관점에서 보면, 그것은 그것과 전혀 다른 점이 없다; 건설적인 편집자들은 여전히 편집자를 보고 나쁜 편집들을 되돌리는 데 시간을 낭비해야 한다. 그리고 나는 기사를 더 나쁘게 만드는 편집들도 놓친다고 생각해야 한다.이것과 같은 "플래그" 편집은, 예를 들어, 이렇게 dab 페이지를 포맷하는 것은 정말 안 좋다.그리고 이 기사를 "거추장"이라고 부르는 것에 대해서는, [25]개의 단어가 나를 실패하게 한다.사용자를 멘토링하려면 큰 소리로 설명하십시오.한편, 나는 그들이 득보다 실상 더 해를 끼친다는 원칙에 따라 그들을 추행했다.작업해 주셔서 감사합니다, 사용자:흐르는 꿈.비쇼넨 토크 18:46, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[답답하다]
정말이지, 나한테서 얻은 값어치를 위해서.비시 함대 제독이 충분히 이겨줘서 고마워이런 백과사전을 망치는 잘못된 행동에 봉사활동이 집중된 우리에게는 감사하다. - 줄리엣델탈리마(토크) 20:21, 2019년 10월 15일(UTC)[응답]
천만에요, 비쇼넨.나는 그러한 사람들에게 정확하게 라벨을 붙이는 것이 불가능하다는 것에 동의한다.우리는 그들의 뇌에 있지 않다.우리가 볼 수 있는 것은 결과와 그들이 경고에 주의를 기울이기를 거부하는 것뿐이다.게다가, "파괴와 99% 유해성에 대한 관리자 개입" 게시판은 없었다.just AIV와 ANI. 흐르는 꿈 (대화 페이지) 01:57, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

지속적인 되돌림, 출처 무시, 다른 사용자의 토크 페이지 토론 거부

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

나는 이곳이 내가 부적절한 행동을 하는 것이 아니라는 것을 설명할 수 있는 적절한 장소였으면 좋겠다.나는 편집 전쟁을 피하기를 간절히 바란다.현재 편집자에 문제가 있음(사용자:케르마 문화 페이지에 있는 야쿠브316).그들은 특정한 출처를 반영하지 않는 방식으로 나타내기 위해 그 페이지의 언어 섹션을 계속 편집한다.나는 편집 노트(내 추론을 설명한다고 믿음)에 설명을 남겨두고, 토크 페이지(출처를 인용하고 그들의 주장을 상세히 논하는 주제를 만드는 것)에서 이들과 토론을 시도했을 뿐 아니라, 그들 자신의 토크 페이지에 메시지를 남기기도 했지만, 그들은 계속해서 반복적인 e로 자신이 선호하는 편집을 다시 입력해 왔다.역사 노트에 있는 xplanations는 그들이 내 설명을 읽거나 듣지 않았음을 나타내는 것 같다.그들은 듣거나, 참여하거나, 토론하는 것을 꺼리는 것 같고, 나는 어떻게 해야 할지 잘 모르겠어.이 문제에 대한 당신의 도움에 감사한다.다음은 편집 히스토리 링크, 기사의 Talk 페이지의 내 주제, 그리고 아래의 User's Talk 페이지에 대한 나의 포스트 이온: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kerma_culture#Sources_and_language_affinity_of_Kerma.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kerma_culture&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Yacoob316 그리고 (최근, 아래에서는 Yacoob316에 의해 시작된 토크 페이지 주제가 있는데, 여기서 나는 또한 그들을 토론에 참여시키려고 시도했다.)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kerma_culture#both_cushitic_and_nilotic_languages_were_spoken_in_kerma_according_to_julian_riley Sklagyuk (대화) 19:50, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답하라]

우선, 두 분 모두 페이지를 되돌리는 것을 그만둘 필요가 있다.두 분 중 어느 한 분이라도 계속 되돌리면 편집 전쟁으로 차단될 겁니다.지금 상의해봐야 해.나는 나중에 그 논쟁의 내용에 대해 토크 페이지에 논평할 것이다.선장 EekEdits Ho Cap'n!: 00:12, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답
@대장이크: 고마워.그리고 네가 한 말이 기록되어 있다(일부 결의에 도달할 때까지 나는 다시 되돌리지 않겠다).그러나 토론이 효과가 있는 것 같지는 않았다(논의하기 위해 할 수 있는 일을 했다고 느끼지만, 나의 설명은 끈질기게 무시되고 다른 사용자에게는 결코 다루어지지 않았다).현재 다른 사용자는 편집 전쟁에 대한 경고를 받은 이후 편집/편집 내용을 되돌리거나 다시 작성하지 않았지만, 일단 24시간 기간이 종료되면(혹은 더 빨리) 전술한 편집을 재개할 수 있을 것으로 우려된다.Talk 페이지에 있는 당신의 의견이 모든 관련자들에게 이 문제를 해결하는 데 도움이 되기를 바란다.다시 한 번 감사드려요.Sklagyuk (대화) 00:33, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
@대장Eek: 하지만 나는 그 문제를 계속 논의할 거야.나 역시 군데군데 다소 반복적으로 대응해 왔지만, 다만 다른 사용자(Yacoob316)가 나의 설명/포인트를 오해/오해하지 않았음을 확실히 하기 위해서였다(그들이 출처를 오해한 적이 한 번 이상 있는 것 같았기 때문이다.나는 내 설명을 좀 더 명확히/명확하게 표현하기 위해 (필요하다면 계속 그렇게 할 것이다) 기사의 Talk 페이지와 다른 사용자의 Talk 페이지에 대해 토론을 계속하고 있다.Sklagyuk (대화) 22:00, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

IP와 충돌하는 장르에 대한 범위 블록 갱신

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

특수 군집 차단:기여/2A02:C7D:1A3E:5D00:0:0:0:0:0:0:0/64는 3개월 동안 사용되었지만 블록은 1년 전에 만료되었다.그 사람은 음악 기사의 혼란과 싸우는 장르를 재개했다.블록에 보조 주사를 맞을 수 있을까?Binksternet (talk) 20:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 1년 동안 /64 레인지를 다시 잠갔다.통지된 사용자:그들이 언급하고 싶어할 경우에 대비해서 무리를 지어라.에드존스턴 (토크) 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC) 16:57 [응답]
신경 써줘서 고맙다는 말밖에 할 말이 없다.베스트, ~스왑~ 2019년 10월 15일(UTC) 01:43[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:Birbal_Kumawat

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이것은 "만성적이고 다루기 힘든 행동 문제"에 해당되길 바란다.2017년 이후, 사용자들은 영어 문법에 대한 그들의 광적인 오해에 찬성하여 위키 기사를 지속적으로(그리고 파괴적으로) 편집해 왔으며, 그럴 경우, 종종 아무것도 인용하지 않고 독창적인 '연구'에 근거하여 전진해왔다.기사 자체보다는 기사의 주제를 논의하거나 심지어 다루기 위해 그들이 반복적으로 페이지를 토크로 편집한 것은 말할 것도 없다.

어찌된 일인지, 사용자들은 그들의 파괴적인 기사 편집이 내가 볼 수 있는 것처럼 전부 되돌아가긴 했지만, 실제로 경고를 받은 적이 없다. (비공식적으로, 편집 요약이나 기사 토크 페이지에서 몇 개의 응답을 받은 경우는 제외한다.)그렇기 때문에 AIV에서 이것을 보고하지 않았다 — M. I. Wright추가한 서명되지 않은 코멘트 앞 (토크 기여) 05:41, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

비르발_쿠마왓은 8월 이후 편집하지 않았다.그가 돌아오지 않기를 바라지만, 만약 그가 돌아온다면, 최소한 법적인 위협을 하는 것에 대한 경고를 받아야 한다.[26]은 분명 하나일 것이고, 이 [27]은 누구를 목표로 하는지는 정확히 모르겠지만, 아마도 그를 제외한 영어로 글을 쓰는 모든 사람들일 것이다.2A00:23C7:B701:A101:FDF5:5796:4432:4CD5 (대화) 06:39, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
@M. I. 라이트:그 편집자는 2019년 8편, 2018년 10편만 편집했다.그것은 현재 ANI의 관심을 필요로 하는 고질적이거나 난해한 문제가 아니며, 특히 그들은 8월 이후 좋은 영어로 쓰고 의사소통하는 방법에 대한 다소 호기심을 드러내지 않고 있기 때문이다.나는 그들이 영어 실력을 자랑스러워 한다고 확신한다.그럼에도 불구하고, 그들은 그들이 생각하는 것만큼 훌륭하지 않으며, 아마도 오히려 자기 중요하지만 다소 어리석은 편집으로 대화 페이지를 편집하는 것에 자부심을 느끼고 있을 것이다, 모든 것이 위에 도움이 되는 것처럼 공허한 허풍으로 가득 차 있다.와 같은 편집은 금방 되돌아가지만, 잘못 이해했을 때에도 선의로 편집된다.필요하다면 그들의 향후 편집 내용을 감시하고 지도할 수 있어 기쁘다. (이렇게 키보드 테일을 네 개 입력하여 토크 페이지에 자신의 게시물에 서명하는 것을 잊지 마십시오.안녕하십니까, 닉 모예스 (대화) 09:59, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

법적 위협/s, BLP 문제

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Gardenstatelaw는 리얼리티 TV 출연자인 Michael Sorrentino의 리드를 계속 바꿔서, 그가 "가장 잘 알려진" 것으로 이 주제의 "신념 없는 확신"을 강조하고 있다. (RS는 그의 유죄 판결을 기사에 인용하지 않고 오히려 "Jersey Shore 출연진 XX"라고 한다.)주제가 BLP인 것을 고려해, 나는 Gardenstatelaw가 편집한 내용이 분명히 WP가 아니라는 이유로 편집한 내용을 되돌렸다.NPOV, 그들은 WP:지나치게, 또한 사실적으로 부정확하다.나는 그 기사에서 논의되고 있는 내용(그의 신념)에 대해 아무런 거리낌이 없지만, 가든스테이트로우가 어떻게 기사를 편집했는지는 분명히 부적절하다.

Gardenstatelaw's는 일련의 법적 위협과 함께 나와 다른 편집자가 피험자의 대리인/유료 편집 및 리팩터 토크 페이지 코멘트를 거짓으로 비난하고 있다.

만약 다른 한 쌍의 시선이 이 문제를 들여다볼 수 있다면, 그것은 매우 감사할 것이다.안녕하십니까, —멜본스타bourne 02:talk54, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

차폐된El_C 02:57, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 적어도 납은 소렌티노가 패션 소매업자 아베크롬비 피치로부터 회사의 옷을 입지 말라고 1만 달러를 제안받았다는 것을 암기하지 않는다. 회사 대변인은 "소렌티노 씨가 우리 브랜드와 제휴하면 이미지에 큰 타격을 줄 수 있다"설명했다.ENG 06:52, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 여기를 가볍게 밟거나, 뉴저지주 트렌턴의 법정에서 소송을 당할 수도 있다. 207.38.146.86 (대화) 12:27, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
위키피디아는 법적 위협을 허용하지 않는다.넌 차단된 거나 다름없어.굿데이 (토크) 12:39, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
반역죄와 "뉴저지 주 트렌튼의 법정에서 수 유"를 기억하는 사람은 아무도 없나? --Calton Talk 14:29, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]
하하하 -- 저 남자한테 무슨 일이 생긴 건지 궁금하군.Antandrus(토크) 14:48, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
프롤리는 뉴저지 트렌튼에 있는 법정에서 속았다.그렇다면 업보에는 유머감각이 있다.v^_^v 04:25, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

오늘 아침 일찍 기사 내용을 스포티하게 보도한 것은 양말과 관련된 것으로 보인다.El_C 04:27, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

반유대주의?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2019 할레 회당 촬영에 대한 이 댓글에서 @Jzsj:: A.주들은 "언론이 시온주의자들에게 더 동정한다"고 말했다.B. 독일의 유대교 회당 신도들을 시온주의자들과 동일시한다.130.193.112.146(대화 • 기여)이 추가된 이전의 부호 없는 의견

지금 바로 하겠다고 사용자에게 통보했어야죠. --Shrike (대화) 19:57, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
오, 정말 슬픈 일이군.왜 그런지 AN/I에게 달려갈 만하지? --Elmidae(토크 · 기여) 20:30, 2019년 10월 15일(UTC)[응답]
그 논평을 읽었을 때, 나는 그가 단지 몇몇 주요 신문들을 보면 뒷받침될 수 있는 관찰을 말한 것이라고 생각한다.여기에 실행 가능한 것은 아무것도 없다.이 나사산을 닫으십시오.캡틴 에케Edits Ho Cap'n! 21:24, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
나머지 토론 내용을 읽었는데, 왜 팔레스타인을 언급하는 것이 필요한지 모르겠고, 명백히 선동적이었지만, 여전히 제재 가능한 범죄 수준으로 올라가지 못하고 있다.만약 어떤 것이 보증된다면, WP는 다음과 같다.트라우트, 그리고 더 이상 아무것도.캡틴 이크 ⚓ 21:30, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사망에 대한 근거 없는 보고

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

테이트의 최근 편집된 내용을 보십시오. 여러 편집자들이 그의 죽음에 대한 보고서를 추가했지만 RS를 제공하는 편집자는 없었지만 RS를 제공하는 편집자는 없었다.이런 상황에서 어떤 표준적인 절차가 따르는가?폴 8월 ☎ 21:46, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

네, 사망을 뒷받침하는 믿을 만한 출처가 나올 때까지 살아 있는 겁니다.--bbb23 (대화) 21:49, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
네, 물론 제 말은 예를 들어 이런 경우에 기사를 보호하는 것이 표준 관행이라는 것이었죠.폴 어거스트 인터뷰 21:56, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
나름이다.이 경우 오늘부터 모든 것이 시작되었고, 편집자 1명을 제외하고 모두 IP이거나 오토캐논 확증되지 않아 3일 동안 반신반의했다.--Bb23 (토크) 22:03, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
좋아. 폴 8월 22일 05:05, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:디브레서

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이것을 AN/I에게 가져다 주지 않아도 될 것을 바라고 있었지만 어찌할 바를 몰랐다.더 이상 확대되기 전에 싹을 잘라내고 싶다.

문제는 그가 다른 편집자들, 또는 나와 의견이 다르다는 것이 아니다.매우 공격적이고 호전적인 WP:UNCIVAL, 그리고 그가 스스로 행동하는 독성 있는 태도 (즉 WP:BULLER, WP:개인 공격, WP:괴롭힘WP:경찰) 내가 예외로 하는 것.이번 사건이 일회성 사건이었는지 아니면 성격에 맞지 않는 사건이었는지(그리고 2년 전 같은 분쟁을 겪었을 때 처음 나는 그렇게 믿었다) 좀더 이해하겠지만 그렇지 않다.그는 적어도 이 특정 분야에서 자신과 의견이 다른 사람들을 향해 이런 식으로 행동한 이력이 있고, 그 대신 집행관(WP:CCC 무시)처럼 행동한 경험이 있다.

재점검하려면, 사용자:Debresser는 며칠 동안 이 범주에 대한 전쟁을 편집해 왔으며, 매번 되돌릴 때마다 점점 더 호전적이고 공격적으로 변하고 있다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=920962885&oldid=920733399

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=921038473&oldid=921022628

https://https:///en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=921215848&oldid=921046023

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=921217302&oldid=921217117

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=921218981&oldid=921218635

물론, 그를 향한 나의 첫 번째 되돌리기가 더 좋을 수도 있었다.나는 그것에 대한 모든 책임을 인정한다.

나는 그의 페이지에 짧은 경고를 남겼다: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Debresser&diff=921217640&oldid=921163925.

그의 답변은 서명하지 않고 (두 번 되돌아갔을 뿐이지만) 비슷한 경고를 내 자신의 페이지에 남기는 것이었다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Human_Trumpet_Solo&diff=prev&oldid=921220361

그는 나중에 그것에 대해 거짓말을 했고, 또 다른 사용자가 경고를 남겼다고 말했다.그의 번호 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:North_American_Jews&diff=prev&oldid=921220032을 참조하십시오.

그는 나중에 다른 사용자의 대화 페이지에 반위협적 메시지를 남겼다(사용자:그를 되돌린 레인보우프 평화)이다.이 메시지에는 노골적인 인신공격성 발언이 담겨 있었다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rainbowofpeace&diff=prev&oldid=921221448

그는 나중에 이 게시물을 수정했지만 여전히 개인 AGF 공격과 접촉하고 있다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rainbowofpeace&diff=prev&oldid=921365356

내가 마지막으로 확인한 바로는, 그는 자신의 의견을 사실이라고 말하고, 내 방향으로 적대적인 욕설/비방을 퍼붓는 등 여전히 그것을 하고 있다. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Canadian_Jews&diff=prev&oldid=921369332

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Canadian_Jews&diff=prev&oldid=921426165

어떻게 해야 할지 막막하다그는 다른 주제에 대해 가치 있는 기여를 많이 했지만, 이번 것은 너무 개인적인 것 같다.휴먼 트럼펫 솔로 (토크) 19:53, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

편집 전쟁으로 인해 1주일 차단됨.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 20:38, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

휴먼 트럼펫 솔로도 전쟁을 편집하고 있었다.그들은 블록을 받을 것인가?Cullen328은 Debresser의 편집을 지지하였으므로, 아마도 NinjaRobotPirate는 이것을 다시 보고 싶어할 것이다.또한 THTS가 몇 주 동안 대화 페이지에 가시적인 합의 없이 그러한 정보를 추가하려고 노력해왔다는 점을 주목해야 한다.나는 관리자들이 기존의 편집자들에게 블록을 떨어뜨리기 전에 이슈를 좀 더 깊이 들여다봤으면 좋겠다.어니씨(대화) 07:56, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

우리의 정책과 지침과 그 시행에 정통한 사람이라면 옳은 것이 소수의 예외(예: 반달리즘이나 노골적인 BLPvios)와의 편집 전쟁을 정당화하는 일은 거의 없다는 것을 알아야 한다.THTS 차단에 대해서는 관리자라면 누구나 결정할 수 있다.그러나 우리의 정책, 지침, 그리고 그 시행에 대해 다시 한번 잘 알고 있는 일반 원칙으로서, 2 대 1일 때는 2 대 1이 없으면 1이 차단될 가능성이 훨씬 더 높다.특히 중립적인 제3자가 1에게 "여러분은 선에서 매우 가까이서 회피하고 있으며, 정말로 선을 잘라내야 한다"고 말할 때 더욱 그렇다.이것은 편집 전쟁이 정당하다고 말하는 것이 아니라 우리가 3RR을 가지고 있는 이유 때문에 특정 종류의 편집 전쟁이 더 나쁘다는 것을 인식한다.3RR을 24시간마다 3번씩 되돌릴 수 있는 일종의 권리로 취급하는 것은 분명히 도움이 되지 않는다. 왜냐하면 그 정책은 그것이 의미하는 바가 아니기 때문이다.또한 논쟁적인 내용에 집중하기보다는 다른 편집자가 얼마나 "악"인지 설명하는 새로운 편집자에게 접근하는 것도 아니다.닐 아인(토크) 08:28, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
닐 아인(Nil Einne)이 지적했듯이 한쪽이 막혔다고 해서 한쪽이 '이긴다'는 것은 아니다.어떤 사람이 27시간 동안 네 번을 되돌리고, 전쟁을 멈추라고 경고를 받고, 같은 편집 전쟁을 다른 기사로 가져갈 때, 그들은 상대편의 모든 편집을 반복해서 되돌리는 똑같은 패턴을 시작한다 - 그렇다, 이것은 블록을 초래할 수 있다.올바른 움직임은 이것을 어떤 형태의 분쟁 해결로 가져가는 것이다.만약 이 분쟁에 관여하는 사람이 아무도 그렇게 하지 않는다면, 그들은 결국 모두 차단될 것이다.아니면 그들이 편집하는 모든 페이지는 완전히 보호될 것이라고 추측하지만, 그것은 편집 전쟁에 참여하지 않고 이 페이지에서 작업하기를 원하는 누구에게나 나쁜 상황으로 보인다.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 14:40, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
아 그래, 그럼 그때는 자세한 내용을 조사하지 않았구나. 그리고 네 편에는 법의 서한이 있으니 네 말이 맞아.고마워요.어니씨(대화) 17시 19분, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

177.101.41.0/24에 대한 범위 블록 요청

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 범위는 5개월 동안 산발적으로 만화 기사에 거짓 정보를 추가해 왔다.이 범위의 모든 편집은 편집 요약 패턴에 의해 증명된 한 개인으로 나타난다.오늘 IP 1개가 활성화되어 있어 레인지에 대한 쇼트 블록을 요청한다.에버그린피르 (대화) 18:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

일주일간 막힘--Ymblanter (대화) 18:37, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
@Ymblanter:Merci! Eluprelfir (토크) 18:51, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자가 스트리밍 서비스에 대한 짧은 문장을 계속 추가함

Sajal27 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 블록 유저 · 블록 로그) 유투브에서 볼 수 있는 스트리밍 서비스에 대해 이 유저에게 이야기하려고 했다.하지만 내가 그것에 대한 어떤 뉴스가 ref로 사용될지 알아보려고 했을 때.그 이름은 아무런 언급도 없이 "뮤즈 아시아"라는 단어로 언급된다.아니면 보도자료의 종류도.유투브에 관한 것은 무엇이든 규칙/가이드라인 WP에 포함된다는 것이 나의 첫 번째 생각이었다.ELP, 만약 유튜브 채널이 그 이름에 체크가 있어야 한다면.하지만 그렇지 않다.그러자 사용자는 이 부분에 대해 더 이상 이야기하는 것을 무시하고 다시 추가했다.오염-윙즈 (대화) 09:15, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

그들의 편집은 대부분 취소되었다.만약 그들이 경고를 무시하고 그것을 다시 추가한다면.그럼 아이브 99.203.50.238 (토크) 17:08, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답하라]
이러한 편집은 WP 때문에 수행되지 않았다.프로모션.내가 이 페이지에서 그것에 대해 알기 전까지.하지만 지난 며칠 동안, 이 편집 이후 일주일을 실수했다.Sajal27은 Muse Asia를 추가해왔다.그리고 내가 통지를 한 후, 사잘27은 같은 문장을 다시 추가했다.그리고 나는 이것이 느린 패턴의 시작인지 확실하지 않다.오염-윙즈 (대화) 20:51, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

위키피디아를 거짓말하고 이용했다는 BLP 기자의 국내 신문

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

전국 신문에서 BLP 기자들이 거짓말을 하고 위키피디아를 자신의 목적에 사용한다고 비난하지 않도록, 그리고 주목할 만하고 매우 비판적인 RS[30]를 "러시아 국영 매체"에 비교하는 것을 피하고자 하는 나의 간절한 소망에 우호적인 경고를 할 수 있을까?[31] 프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 19:53, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

이 똥을 한곳에 모아 두자.---임블란터 (대화) 19:55, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답하라]
임블란터, 어느 곳에 배설물을 보관하고 있다고 해야 할까?짐보스 대화에 대한 논의가 있었던 것 같은데 내가 놓친 게 아니라면 그건 보관된 것 같아.하지만 이 실이 여기 남아있을 것 같은데, 그렇다면 누군가 상황에 대해 중립적인 생각을 하는 것이 도움이 될 것이다.선장Edits Ho Cap'n! 에케 04:35, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
출처에 대한 코멘트만 했을 뿐이다.하지만, 나는 WP의 어느 누구도 이 신문과 이 저널리스트에게 앞으로 어떠한 인터뷰도 하지 않기를 바란다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 05:14, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그건 동의할 수 없어.그의 WP 관련 기사는 종종 매우 흥미로우며, 특히 다른 많은 기자와 비교했을 때 WP-프로세서/whatever에 대해 전반적으로 잘 이해하고 있다.Grbergbergs Gråa Sång (대화) 06:58, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
이것은 WP의 스핀오프다.참조된 진술이 작성된 토론.논의는 며칠째 계속되고 있다.--Ymblanter (대화) 05:21, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
사용자 대화:짐보 웨일즈, 대화:바르샤바 수용소, 대화:위키백과의 신뢰성, WP:A와 마지막으로 :pl:위키백과:카와렌카/오골네, 일부 WP 포함:그들 사이의 탐문수사가 진행되고 있다.나는 이것들 중 어떤 것도 시작하지 않았다.프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 11시 35분, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
위키피디아는 비판으로부터 아울렛을 보호하는 사업이 아니다.MVBW가 여기서 실행 가능한 일을 했다고 생각하지는 않지만, 내 생각에 그들은 아마도 그 원천이 신뢰할 수 없는 것으로 여겨져야 하는지에 대해 잘못 알고 있는 것 같다.그리고 나는 너희 모두가 폴란드에서 잠시 쉬고 싶어할 겁니다.사이먼m223 (대화) 12:37, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
비평은 괜찮지만, 기자가 거짓말을 하고 소식통을 남용했다고 비난하는 것은 단순한 "비판"을 넘어선다.프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 12시 52분, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
아니, 그건 정말 아니야. 그리고 난 네가 좋아하는 사람들을 드라마 게시판에 올려놓으려고 하지 말고 잠시 한숨 돌리라고 제안하고 싶어.사이먼m223 (대화) 12:56, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그래서 내가 만약 - 사이먼 - 당신이 거짓말을 하고 다른 편집자들을 조종하고 있다고 말한다면, 완벽하게 괜찮겠지?WP 아님:PA 같은 거?프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 15:05, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
WP:NPA는 비위키피디안에게는 적용되지 않는다; 나는 우리가 별로 눈여겨보지 않는 BLP 관련 토크 페이지들에 대한 모욕(의견으로 표현)의 전파를 본 적이 있다.이 분야에는 확실해야 할 BLPTAK의 우려가 있지만, 위키피디아에서 일어난 일들에 대한 RS 보고가 있는 이 특정한 상황의 맥락에서, 우리가 여기서 그 기사를 얼마나 활용해야 할지를 판단하면, 그 기사에는 "거짓말"과 다른 조작이 있다고 부르는 것들이 있다는 것은 이해할 수 있다.실제로 관련된 e.우리가 위키백과 전혀 무관한 RS를 이야기하면서 "기자가 분명히 거짓말을 하고 있다!"고 버리기 시작한다면 그것은 크게 다를 것이다.구체적으로 이 하아레츠 작품에 대한 독특한 상황이라 할 수 있는데, 어떤 것이 포함하기에 적합한지 판단할 수 있도록 그 면을 발산할 수 있도록 말을 조작했다고 주장하는 사람들을 이해할 필요가 있다고 생각한다. --마샘 (t) 15:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
벤자콥은 위키피디아 사람이다.Grbergbergs Gråa Sång (대화) 16:02, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나의 관심은 오직 이 특정한 출판물에 관한 것이었다.나는 이 작가가 그의 페이지에 링크된 것과 같은 다른 출판물을 가지고 있는지 몰랐다.그것들을 보고 난 저자는 일반적으로 훌륭한 언론인이며 WP 사업에 정통하다고 생각한다.그러나 이 글은 다르다.아마도 그는 아이스위즈에게 현혹되어 그가 "에미"라고 인식한 기여자들의 "예"를 만들기로 결심했을 것이다.나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화)19:01, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
토론을 훑어보면 이것이 관련자들에게 알려진 사실이었는지 알 수 없다.저 사용자는 확실히 이러한 토론에 참여하지 않아서 이런 식으로 명백하지 않을 것이다.나는 몇몇 사람들이 작가에게 이메일을 보냈다고 말했지만, 나는 그것들이 위키피디아를 통해서가 아니라 하레츠 역량에 기초했다고 추측하지만, 그것은 분명하지 않다.하지만, 우리는 또한 WP 기고문보다는 위키백과 밖에서 이 사람이 무엇을 했는지에 대해 이야기 하고 있다.상황이 달라지긴 하지만, 현재 토론에서 읽을 수 없는 내용, 이것이 얼마나 잘 알려진 것인지에 따라 모든 것이 달라진다. --Masem (t) 16:17, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그것은 나에게 알려지지 않았다.El_C 16:23, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 위키피디아의 실제적인 정체성을 조사하지 않는다는 것을 강조한다.그만큼 이 글의 저자가 위키백과라는 사실을 나는 전혀 알지 못했다.만약 그렇다면, WP:NPA가 적용될 수도 있다; 하지만 만약 그들이 부정직한 것으로 판명되면, 그것은 비-위키 괴롭힘에 해당될 수 있다. 그래서 나는 이것이 우리가 훨씬 더 멀리 추구하고 싶은 길이라고 확신한다.그렇긴 하지만, 나는 이전에 다른 편집자들로부터 기사화된 경고보다 훨씬 더 많은 것을 얻지 못한 거짓말쟁이보다 훨씬 더 나쁜 것으로 불려왔다.사이먼m223 (대화) 17:12, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
왜 우리는 RS도 주지 않는 편집자 권한을 주어야 하는가?[32]프랑수아 로브레 (대화) 17:40, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
우리는 출처(즉, 출처)를 사용할지 여부를 결정하기 위해 이런 종류의 판단을 사용할 수 있다.신뢰할 수 있는지 여부) - "이 출처는 [수집]에 대한 대략적인 것 같다"는 논리의 비약적인 부분을 포함할 수 있다(이러한 논의는 어떤 출처를 찾아야 하는지에 대해 우리에게 지시하는 데 도움이 될 수 있기 때문이다).특히 어떤 주장이 WP:EXECTION(예: 예외)인지 확인하는 데도 도움이 될 수 있다."이 주장은 명백한 증거와 모순되므로, 우리는 그것을 위해 더 나은 소스가 필요하다"는 것이 당신이 어느 정도 근거에서 주장할 수 있는 주장이다.물론 그러한 종류의 논리에는 상당한 한계가 있다; 그것은 점점 더 높은 품질의 원천을 지지할 수 없게 된다. 또는 같은 말을 하는 복수의 출처가 있을 때...하지만 "잠깐, 이것이 잘못되었다고 생각할 이유가 있으니, 속도를 줄이고 다른 출처를 기다리자"는 것은 사람들이 적어도 대화 중에 할 수 있도록 허락된 주장이다.아무도 기사 공간에서 "하지만 그들은 틀렸다, 위키백과 편집자 X에 따르면"라고 직설적으로 말하고 그것을 위키백과 토크 페이지에 인용하라고 제안하지 않는데, 그것은 그 링크가 요청하기에 더 가까운 것이다. --조 (대화) 19:42, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
한 눈에 볼 때, 그런 것들은 합법적인 질문의 영역 안에 있는 것처럼 보인다.WP:BLPTAK은 특히, 공급되지 않았거나 공급되지 않았으며 콘텐츠 선택하는 것과 관련이 없는 살아있는 사람에 관한 논쟁적 자료에 관한 것이라고 말한다. 즉, 다른 사람들이 동의하지 않거나 불공평하다고 느낄 수 있는 출처 작성자에게 이의를 제기하는 것이 허용된다.그녀와 그 출처를 어떻게 사용하는지 그리고 그 반대는 콘텐츠 선택과 무관할 정도로 명백하게 우스꽝스럽지 않다."이 작품의 저자가 그들이 진실을 왜곡하도록 이끌 수 있는 편견을 가지고 있다는 것을 암시할 수는 없다." (특히 이 경우 그들은 다른 출처를 인용하고 있기 때문에, 내가 읽은 바에 의하면) 출처를 논하는 데 소름끼치는 영향을 미칠 것이다.)전혀 근거 없는 억측이었다면 아마 이의 제기에 일리가 있겠지만, 첫 번째 연결고리는 완전히 경박하다고 치부하기 어려운 방식으로 직접적으로 그들의 추리를 제시한다. --조금 (대화) 19:30, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
(충돌 편집)@프랑수아 로브레:뉴요커에 있는 이 길고 횡설수설한 항의서한은 MVBW에 대한 당신의 계속되는 불만과 너무나 크게 이혼한 것 같아서 나는 당신이 무슨 말을 하고 있는지 확실치 않다.하지만 다시 말하지만, 이 모든 실이 사람들의 시간을 낭비하고 있다는 것을 제안하고 싶다.나는 더 이상 참여하지 않을 것이다.사이먼m223 (대화) 19:33, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그것은 우리가 실제로 RS로부터 원천봉쇄할 수 있는 어떤 검토권을 편집자에게 주어야 한다는 의견을 가진 마셈에게 질문이었다.프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 20:52, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 출처를 "편파적일 수 있다"고 말하는 것에 문제가 없다. 출처가 "거짓말"이라는 증거 없이 말하는 것에 문제가 있다.이 둘 사이에는 큰 차이가 있는데 위키 세계에서는 보통 후자를 WP로 간주한다.ASPERSions 또는 WP:PA, 비록 아직 시행되지는 않았지만."당신이 거짓말쟁이고 다른 사람을 착취한다"는 말이 받아들여지는 것으로 여겨질 수 있다면 위키피디아의 담화 문화는 얼마나 빈약한가!
(흥미롭게도, "당신은 인종차별주의자"는 여전히 그 본색을 벗어난다.)프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 21:17, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

미개한 사용자

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

어머리는 그동안 각종 기사에 대해 편집자(주로 경험이 부족한 사용자)에게 무례한 공격 발언을 해 왔다.그는 편집자 "아이디어스" "멍청이"라고 불리고, 또한 나를 철없는 아이라고 부르기도 했다.그는 또한 나를 WP로 고소했다.스토킹(실제 WP:내가 의 기여를 지켜보고 있음에도 불구하고 그가 WP를 위반하지 않도록 확실히 하기 위해서였다.시민 의식.나 역시 몇 가지 실수를 저질렀다는 것을 인정한다. 나는 개인적으로 그를 공격했다] 카사그랜드의 대화 페이지에서 (처음에는 그것이 비판이라고 생각하면서 그것이 사실은 인신공격이고 WP에서 이런 말을 하는 것이 허용되지 않는다는 것을 깨달았다) 그리고 나는 WP를 위반했을 수도 있고, 아닐 수도 있다.호킹.처음에는 이 사용자에 대해 인내심이 있었지만, 아직 경험이 부족한 편집자라 우연히 선을 넘었을 수도 있고, 그 점에 대해 사과하고 다음 번에는 이런 일들에 대해 다루지 않을 것이다.나는 위키피디아가 친근한지 확인하려고 노력하는 등 좋은 의도가 있었지만, 애초에 멈추려고 했던 것에 어느 정도 기여했다.그래서 기본적으로 나는 내 자신을 보고하고 있다. 왜냐하면 나는 다른 사람에게 모든 책임을 떠넘기는 사람이 아니기 때문이다.나는 잠시 동안 이 모든 것을 끝내고 위키브레이크를 할 계획이다.허리케인Geek2002 (대화) 00:48, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

디프: 1.[[김 가능성(2019년 영화)]의 편집 내용을 되돌린 이유를 물었더니 "지금"이라는 단어가 너무 공격적이었는지, 유저가 나를 꼬마 2라고 불렀다.그가 선의의 편집자들을 "멍청"이라고 부르는 예. 3. 우리 둘인신공격에 대해 위선적인 태도를 보이는 것. 4.나 자신의 CIVALITY 위반

허리케인Geek2002, 사람들이 ANI에서 그들 자신을 보고하는 경우는 드물지만, 당신이 틀렸을 수도 있다는 것을 이해할 수 있는 성숙함을 가지고 있다니 기쁘다.그것은 대부분의 편집자들보다 훨씬 낫다.Wikibreak을 복용하는 것이 당신에게 가장 좋다고 생각한다면, 그것은 공평하다.솔직히 말하면, 너의 행동은 전혀 나쁘지 않았어.사람들은 위키피디아에 대해 좀 더 미개한 편이었습니다.이것을 교훈으로 삼아 다른 사람들이 배우지 않을 때조차도 냉정함을 유지하는 것을 기억하라.Amaury에 대해, 그들은 또한 기여자가 아닌 콘텐츠에 초점을 맞춰야 한다는 것을 기억해야 하지만, 여기에 실행 가능한 것은 아무것도 없다.선장 이크 03:57, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:에비주르

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

보고 Ebizur (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

  • 사용자에 의한 소스 컨텐츠 제거: Happlogroup O-M175 조항에서 Ebizur.여기 봐.정보원은 '인도(트리푸라)'를 분명히 언급하고 있지만, 사용자는 다른 지역이 언급된 국가명과 국가/지역 이름을 모두 갖고 있음에도 불구하고 이를 삭제하는 데 골몰하고 있다.기사의 예로서 리스트 텍스트, O-F14422* 인도(트리푸라(리앙), [1] 미얀마(양곤)에서 '인도'를 다시 접했다."트리푸라"를 미얀마와 단독으로 언급하는 것은 같은 입장에 있지 않을 것이기 때문이다.
  • 둘째, 사용자가 나와 그의 전형적인 WP괴롭히고 있다.고유의 특성.기사토크에서 토론을 시작했는데도 불구하고
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_O-M175&type=revision&diff=921697405&oldid=921697060 - "당신과 같은 바보 같은 사람"이라는 문구를 사용했다.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Haplogroup_O-M175&diff=next&oldid=921700251 - "괴물, 또는 당신은 인도의 민족주의적이고 민족주의적인 우월주의자"라고 불린다.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Haplogroup_O-M175&diff=prev&oldid=921701711. - "ugly troll 트롤"과 "idiot"이라는 용어를 사용 - Fylindfotberk (대화) 09:49, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • WP에 유사한 보고서를 제출하셨습니다.NEWNEW, 비록 너희 둘 다 편집-워링을 했지만.ANI 보고서의 에비주르에게도 통지하지 않으셨습니다(EW 보고서에 대해 하셨음).그럼에도 불구하고, 다른 사용자로부터 오는 인신공격과 스나크는 미개한 지 훨씬 지났기 때문에, 나는 24시간 동안 에비주르를 차단했다.--Bbb23 (토크) 13:40, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
@Bbb23: 대장님, WP에서 보고했다.EBizur가 나의 편집을 네 번째로 되돌린 후 NEWNEW.그래서 비슷한 보도가 나온 것이다.통지에 대해서는 위에서 언급한 「[사용자:Ebizur]」를 타이핑하면 된다고 생각했다.그들의 대화 페이지에 명시적으로 알리지 않은 것에 대해 사과한다. - Fylindfotebersk (대화) 14:31, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

다중 개인 설정을 사용하여 워링 편집

2A02:587:2961:6600::/64

제발, 범위를 차단해줘.CheckUser·IPsocking 및 편집 WhiteStarG7(talk+·태그·contribs···C·CheckUser(통나무 contribslogs·필터 로그·블록 사용자·블록 로그 삭제되)에 의해 대치 중인)·cuwiki을 조사하 ·, 자신들의 IP양말과 함께 94.66.59.149(talk+·태그 ··필터 로그·WHOIS · RBLs contribs·프록시 수표·블록 사용자·블록 로그·cross-wiki contribs. (로그). innis Mrsi (talk) 07:37, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

완료, 2주 동안--Ymblanter (대화) 18:21, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]
그냥 쪽지 하나...화이트스타G7과 IP 양말은 이전에 이곳에서 차단된 적이 없었기 때문에 차단 회피는 없었다.WP:행정가 게시판/IncidentArchive1017 #IP의 편집전 양말 맞추기 같은 보도는 무시당하지만, 그것은 사실이다.Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:32, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답하라]
엄밀히 말하면, 나는 지난 2주간 편집한 내용이 노골적인 반달리즘 등 대부분 생산적이지 않다는 것을 확인한 후, 파괴적인 편집을 차단했다.—Ymblanter (토크) 18:36, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

최근 WhiteStarG7이 Special을 맹비난하고 있다는 것을 발견했다.기여/2a02:587:ac7d:4200:f8bf:94d7:65b7:7f6d 동일한 /32 내에서.불행히도 그 나쁜 편집은 내 눈을 피했다.Incnis Mrsi (talk) 13:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]

8월에 이 범위 내에서 단 한 번의 편집이 있었다.이쯤에서 차단하지 않겠다.--Ymblanter (대화) 17:59, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답하라]
두 달 된 IP가 나쁜 편집이 한 번 있는 걸 차단해 달라고 부탁하는 건 편집증적인 일이 아니야 [33] 때문에 명백하게 마스터에 대항하여 주장을 펼 뿐이다.Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:17, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답하라]

이라크의 반란(2017년–현재)

또한 양말장수는 이라크 폭동(2017–현재)에서 많은 사람이 이용할 수 있는 악랄한 편집 전쟁을 벌이고 있다(2A02:587:2961:6600:현재 임블란터 덕분에 쓰러졌다).일반적으로 이용자의 모든 기여는 편집전(다양한 기사)과 심는 가짜로 구성되는데, 이 경우 일치한다.Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:14, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]

자, 48h로 시작했는데, 다음에 뭘 하는지 봅시다.--Ymblanter (토크) 06:53, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

쿼드11, 잭 피터슨, COI 및 사기 출처

잭 피터슨(본명이 아님)은 인셀운동과 관련이 있는 시카고 출신의 남자다.그는 그 이후 그 운동으로부터 거리를 두었다.2018년 관련 없는 사람에게 리디렉션을 납치해 그에 대한 전기를 썼다.이후 이 글은 피터슨 자신(잭디아몬드2080으로)뿐만 아니라 많은 시카고 IP들에 의해 편집되었다.며칠 전 쿼드11이 기사를 확장하고 잭 피터슨(필름메이커)으로 개명했다.COI 토론 게시판에 대한 논의를 시작했지만 쿼드11은 새로운 자료를 삭제하고 기사를 '잭 피터슨(스페인)'으로 옮기고 게시판에서 내 보고서를 삭제했다.

쿼드11이 사용한 출처가 사기였기 때문에 이걸 여기로 가져온 겁니다.피터슨의 영화에 대한 리뷰는 계약되어 지불되었다.릴 롬프는 약 25달러에 리뷰를 발행할 것이다.영화 용기(Film Courage)가 300달러의 질의 응답서를 발행할 예정이다.filmcourage.com으로 연결되는 링크는 약 50개다.COI와 공신력 문제에 대한 증거를 위해 관련된 기사들을 볼 가치가 있을 것이다.한편, 누군가는 잭 피터슨(스프레스퍼슨)과 관련 편집자들을 좀더 자세히 보고 싶어할 것이다.비터 오일 (토크) 15:30, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

이게 어떻게 작동하는지 잘 모르겠는데, 사기(?) 원천을 제거해서 문제를 해결했어.일단 어떤 주제가 명성에 도달하면, 새로운 언급은 명성 가이드라인에 관해서 덜 엄격하다는 것이 나의 이해였다.하지만, 나는 위키피디아의 그것에 대한 규칙을 완전히 확신할 수 없기 때문에 제안된 대로 최근의 편집 내용을 번복했다.그럼에도 불구하고, 잠재적으로 지불된 참고자료(및 기사의 관련 자료)는 이제 삭제되었다. Quad11 (대화 기여) 18:26, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]에 의해 추가된 사전 서명되지 않은 논평

사용자:Tmayerferg101

사용자는 10월 초에 최종 경고를 받았음에도 불구하고 Depeech Mode 기사의 인사 부문에 계속 비소급 추가 작업을 한다.나는 오늘 다른 것을 추가하는 것을 귀찮게 하지 않았다. 왜냐하면 그들은 여기 있는 모든 시간 동안 아직 그들의 파괴적인 행동에 대한 이유를 설명하거나 전달하지 못했기 때문이다.이들의 비협조적인 변화의 예는 여기, 여기, 여기, 여기, 여기, 여기 그리고 특별히 이 섹션에 보컬이나 악기 디테일을 추가하는 것에 초점을 맞춘 편집과 함께 볼 수 있다.밴드의 모든 앨범을 소유하고 있는 사람으로서, 나는 아직 작품에서 이러한 세부 사항들을 보지 못했고 편집자는 인용하기를 거부한다.관리자가 편집자에게 WP:V의 중요성을 상기시킬 수 있다.로반베 15:00, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]

[34] 이러한 것들은 별로 공급되지 않은 것처럼 보이지 않는다.많은 소식통들은 누가 다양한 노래를 부르고 연주하고 있었는지 메모를 덧붙인다.나는 그것이 제대로 공급되지 않았고 더 나을 수도 있다는 것에 동의한다. 하지만 나는 당신이 주장하는 혼란의 정도를 보지 못하고 있다.WP:NOTFERT 적용.버프 (토크) 18:08, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 내가 볼 수 있는 한 사실이 아닌 어떤 것도 주장하지 않을 것이다.그들은 설명 편집 요약으로 되돌아갔음에도 불구하고 반복적으로 변경과 추가를 하고, 그것에 대한 최종 경고를 받았으며, 이 문제에 관한 그들의 대화 페이지나 어떤 대화 페이지에서도 아직 전혀 의사소통을 하지 않았다.게다가, 나는 이 사용자에게 관리자로부터 온순하게 상기시키는 것 외에 어떠한 일도 일어나지 않을 것을 제안하는 것이 아니므로, 내가 정확히 어느 시점에서 이 편집자로부터 어떤 특정한 "차단 수준"을 주장하는지를 지적해 주길 바란다.로반베 18:19, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]
그 동안 이 편집자가 출처를 말한 적이 있는 곳을 알려주시겠습니까?그들이 기사에 비소싱 정보를 추가한 곳을 알려줄게.롭반베 18:34, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]
Tmayerferg101의 편집은 분명히 비협조적이며, 어느 정도는 파괴적이다.Depeech Mode의 앨범의 소매 노트에는 각 밴드 멤버에 대한 개별 크레딧/계기가 나열되어 있지 않으며, 출처 중 다수가 그러한 크레딧을 나열하고 있다면 어째서 Tmayerferg101은 이러한 소스를 인용하지 않는가?이 사용자가 지난 10월 편집을 시작한 이후 단 한 번도 편집 요약을 제공하거나 단일 소스를 인용한 적이 없었다.사용자가 되돌리거나 경고를 받을 때에도 다른 사용자와 의사소통하려는 노력을 하지 않고, 대신 단순히 추가사항을 재개한다. 스냅캡(talk) 19:24, 2019년 10월 10일(UTC)[응답]
정보를 정보 상자에 추가할 때는 일반적으로 텍스트가 텍스트 어딘가에 있을 때 WP에 의해 필요하지 않다고 가정한다.리드. 버프 (대화) 22:25, 2019년 10월 10일 (UTC)[응답]
요점을 완전히 놓치셨군요.Robvanvee가 제공한 diffs를 확인해보셨나요?티메이어페르그101은 인포박스를 변경하지도 않고, 앨범의 소매노트나 기사에 실린 다른 출처로는 지지되지 않는 인사란에 끈질기게 내용을 추가하고 있을 뿐이다.WP:LED는 여기에 전혀 적용되지 않는다.내가 말했듯이, 사용자는 출처를 인용하거나 편집한 내용을 정당화하지 않으며 다른 편집자와 소통하려는 노력을 한 적이 없다.티메이어페르그101의 종말에 명백한 교란사례가 있다.스냅스냅스(talk) 02:05, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그것을 본보기로 삼고 있었다. 내가 확실하지 않다면 미안해.이 추가 사항들은 모두 비교적 쉽게 조달될 수 있고 나는 그것을 붕괴로 보지 않는다.버프 (토크) 15:41, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
그것은 요점을 벗어나서 티메이어페르그101의 행동을 용서하지 않는다.수 많은 번 언급되었듯이, 사용자는 출처를 인용하거나 편집 요약을 제공하는 일이 없다. 어떻게 그런 건설적인 편집이 가능한가?WP:V는 검증가능성을 입증해야 하는 부담은 자료를 추가하거나 복원하는 편집자에게 있으며, 기고를 직접 지원하는 신뢰할 수 있는 출처에 인라인 인용문을 제공하여 만족한다고 밝히고 있는데, 이는 티메이어페르그101이 분명히 하지 못한 것이다.스냅스냅스냅스랩스(talk) 03:16, 2019년 10월 12일(UTC)[응답]
쉽게 구할 수 있다"고 하셨죠.그들이 편집한 내용에 소스를 추가한 후에 우리가 뛰어놀자는 거야?당신은 SnaSnap과 내가 이미 지적한 바와 같이 검증가능성의 정책을 이해하십니까?이 점을 티메이어페르그101과 이 시점에서 너희에게 설명하려고 하는 것 같아...몇 번이고시간을 내어 이 을 읽어 보십시오.위키피디아의 큰 부분이다.로반베 09:44, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 WP:V에 대해 잘 알고 있다.그러나 기사의 주제에서 보면 이것이 자명하다는 주장을 할 수 있을 것이다.그것은 마치 XYZ 출판사에서 출판한 책이나 저자가 존 스미티라는 책이나 496페이지나 말 그대로 주제의 일부인 다른 자료들에 대한 기사에 대해 제3자 출처를 요구하는 것과 같다.저기 커버/크레딧에 다 있어, 그냥 봐.본 문서는 WP의 모든 기준을 충족하는 것으로 보인다.셀프퍼브(WP:V의 일부), 동의하지 않으십니까?버프 (토크) 16:23, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

아니, 난 안 하고 빙빙 도는 거 지겨워.만약 당신이 그들의 기여 페이지를 볼 기회가 없을 때를 대비해서 나는 5개의 차이점을 더 추가했다. 그리고 솔직히 말해서 나는 관리자가 차이점을 보고 결정하기를 원한다.로반베 18:17, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]

그리고 넌 여전히 핵심을 놓치고 있어, 버프스.아니오, WP:SelfPUB는 여기에 적용되지 않는다(당신이 언급한 다른 정책도 여기에 적용되지 않는다).Depeech Mode 앨범의 라이너 노트에는 각 밴드 멤버에 대한 특정 크레딧이 할당되어 있지 않고 멤버의 이름만 나열되어 있다(예: 여기 참조).단지 X가 보통 밴드의 베이시스트라고 해서 X가 반드시 주어진 앨범에서 베이스를 연주했다는 의미는 아니다.Tmayerferg101은 WP:VandWP:또는 편집에 대한 소스를 제공하지 못한 상태에서 현재의 소스(이 경우 인사 섹션 상단에 기재된 대로 앨범의 라이너 노트)에서 지원되지 않는 정보를 삽입하는 것이다.솔직히 말해서, 우리의 요점을 이해하려고 하는 것은 끝났고, 차라리 실제 관리자로부터 훨씬 더 많은 이야기를 듣겠다. 스냅냅(talk) 03:24, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]
Tmayerferg101은 여기, 여기, 여기, 여기, 그리고 여기에 비소싱된 정보를 계속 추가하므로 이 논의는 완전히 무시하십시오.로반베 18:00, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

사용자:Pilose399

WP:SPA 및 개연성 WP:로텐버그 교육 센터COI 편집자.사용자가 시설의 인권침해를 미화하고 있다.이 사용자의 편집 내용은 대부분 되돌아가며, 그는 토크 페이지에서 논의한 적이 없다. --Wikiman2718 (토크) 17:21, 2019년 10월 8일 (UTC)[응답]

이것은 필로세399의 편집 전쟁임이 분명하며, 그가 여기에서 어떤 설득력 있는 대답을 하지 않는 한, 나는 토론하려는 노력이 부족하기 때문에, 이 경우 무기한은 그가 이 편집들을 토론하는 데 동의하기 전까지의 것을 의미한다고 생각한다.북빛의 칼날 (話して下い) 17:32, 2019년 10월 8일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 그는 계속 되돌아가고 있다.이 사람이 빨리 금지될수록 좋다. --위키만2718 (대화) 19:31, 2019년 10월 9일 (UTC)[응답]
범프. 사용자가 계속 되돌아간다. --위키만2718 (대화) 15:42, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 그와 함께 그에게 주의를 주었다. 당신은 아직 공개되지 않은 유료 편집자로서 당신의 출현에 대한 문의에 응답하거나 조치를 취하지 않았다. 준수하지 않고 추가 편집을 할 경우 편집이 차단될 수 있다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 17:19, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답하라]
미공개 유료 편집과 관련하여 받은 문의에 응답하지 않고 추가 편집을 할 경우 추가 경고 없이 편집이 차단될 수 있다고 그에게 경고하였다.Tgeorgescu (대화) 20:57, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답하라]

X 기사의 종교에서 인구 통계 숫자에 대한 의심스러운 변경

지난 며칠 동안, 나는 IP 편집자들이 피지의 종교[35]수리남의 종교[36]의 인구통계 부분을 변경하는 것을 주목했다.두 경우 모두 제공된 출처의 변경 없이 인구통계학적 수치가 수정되었다.이 두 기사의 인구통계학적 정보는 상당히 시대에 뒤떨어져 있고 갱신할 필요가 있기 때문에 선의의 편집일 가능성이 있다.그럼에도 불구하고, 적절한 소싱이 없다면 그 편집은 프로젝트에 해가 된다.나는 X 기사의 다른 종교도 영향을 받았을 가능성이 있다고 생각하지만, 위의 디프와 관련된 두 IP는 다른 곳에서는 편집하지 않았다.이 부분에 대해 좀 더 많은 관심을 가져주면 고맙겠으며, 만약 이러한 변경을 하는 편집자가 반응하지 않는다면 레인지 블록이 순서가 될 수 있다고 생각한다.signed, 로즈길 17:28, 2019년 10월 15일 (UTC)[응답]

CJH927의 유사한 편집 내용을 참고하십시오.명명된 사용자가 중지한 후 IP가 시작된 것으로 보인다.사용자들은 그들의 토크 페이지에 사과/설명 같은 것을 남겼지만, 그 이후로 아무런 응답도 하지 않았다.하이드로마니아 (토크) 07:21, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
요르단의 종교에 대한 편집은 이미 존재하는 출처를 잘못 읽은 것이며, 반드시 고의적으로 오해를 불러일으키거나 비협조적인 기여를 한 것은 아니다.하이드로마니아 (토크) 07:23, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

블록 검토 요청

사용자를 차단한 경우:저작권을 침해하는 것으로 보이는 참조에 링크를 추가하기 위한 OAbot(다른 웹 사이트의 pdf 복사본을 스크랩하고 스크랩된 복사본 자체를 이용할 수 있게 하는 웹 사이트인 CiteSeerX에).CiteSeerX는 링크된 복사본의 증명서를 제공하는데, 대부분의 경우 이 복사본은 신문의 저자나 출판사의 웹사이트로 보내지만, 많은 경우 그렇지 않다.이 블록을 촉발한 사례에서 CiteSeerX는 두 명의 연구자가 온라인으로 열람할 수 있게 만든 논문 사본과 연결했는데, 두 사람 모두 저자가 아니었다.그 연구자들의 논문 사용이 공평한 사용일지는 몰라도 우리에게 공평한 사용은 되지 못한다.만약 이러한 링크가 참조 섹션 밖에 있다면, 그들은 확실히 WP를 위반할 것이다.ELNEV, 그리고 OAbot이 봇 승인 과정을 거쳤을 때, 이 문제가 논의되었고 CiteSeerX 링크의 추가가 승인된 봇 작업 목록에서 제외되었다.그럼에도 불구하고 사용자:네모 bis(이 실에 대해 내가 통지할 사람, 그리고 봇 운영자 중 한 명)는 이 기능을 추가했으며, 인간 감시의 증거도 없이 이 링크를 높은 비율로 추가해 왔다.

내가 OAbot에 대한 CiteSeerX 링크의 원래 논의의 일부였기 때문에, Nemo bis는 내가 WP로 간주되어야 한다고 제안했다.관련됨.그러므로 나는 이 블록의 다른 관리자들의 검토를 요청하고 있다.구체적으로, 다음 세 가지 질문 중:

  1. 하지 말라는 경고 후 전체 텍스트 비저자 및 비발행자 링크를 다른 유료 참조에 추가하는 것이 차단 가능한 위반으로 간주되어야 하는가?
  2. Nemo bis와 OAbot은 그들의 봇 승인을 위반했는가?
  3. 내가 관여하고 있는 것인가, 만약 그렇다면 나는 내 블록을 들어내고 다른 관리자가 여기서 인수하도록 해야 하는가, 아니면 앞의 두 질문에 대한 합의가 그런 무드가 되는가?

한편 내 블록을 수정하거나 제거하기 위해 어떤 행정관이 일방적으로 조치를 취해도 이의는 없을 것이다.David Eppstein (대화) 00:27, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

(비관리자 논평) Pintoch도 OABot에 관련된 다른 봇 운영자 중 한 명이기 때문에 나는 먼저 가서 Pintoch에게도 알렸다.OhKayeSierra (대화) 01:46, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
알았어, 고마워.봇톡 페이지에도 이미 공지사항을 남겼어.David Eppstein (대화) 01:49, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
@David Eppstein:툴포지에서 작동하는 걸 봤어바보 같은 질문이지만 차단했을 때 자동 잠금을 해제했나?그렇지 않으면 부수적인 피해의 가능성이 많을 겁니다. 핸드폰으로 편집하고 있는데, 블록 로그를 직접 보기가 힘들어. OhKayeSierra (대화) 01:55, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
혹시나 해서 자동 잠금 기능이 해제된 상태로 다시 잠궜어.원래 블록에 대한 승인이 아니다.ST47 (대화) 02:12, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
미안해, 이게 문제인 줄 몰랐어.향후 참조를 위해 참고할 것이다.David Eppstein (대화) 03:26, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

중요한 것은, 나는 관리자가 아니지만, User talk에서 이 문제에 대한 Headbom의 평가에 전적으로 동의한다.OAbot. OABot 3은 기존 식별자를 무료로 플래그링하고, 무료 도이, hdl 등을 추가하는 내용이었다. CiteSeerX는 과거에 너무 논쟁적이어서 자동으로 추가할 수 없다고 여겨져 왔고 OABot 3은 그러한 합의를 뒤집지 않는다.나는 또한 당신의 행동이 WP에 의해 그 업무의 범위 밖으로 운영되는 봇을 차단하기 위한 순전히 행정적 능력으로 작용한다고 본다.BOTBLOCK, 그래서 WP가 보이지 않는다.이 경우에 적용됨.OhKayeSierra (대화) 03:37, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

  • (비관리자 논평) WP당 좋은 블록처럼 보인다.BOTPOL. 위키피디아 보기:BOT/승인요청/OAbot 3 BAG 회원을 포함한 다수의 편집자는 새로운 CiteSeerX 링크의 추가에 반대했으며, 그 기능을 포함시키기 위한 작업에 대한 합의가 이루어지지 않은 것으로 보인다.시험 승인은 기존 URL을 ID로만 변환할 수 있도록 했다는 점에서 명시적이었고, 승인받은 업무기능은 CiteSeerX ID의 '유지관리'를 명시적으로 명시했다.승인에 새로운 CiteSeerX 링크나 ID의 추가가 포함되었다는 징후는 없으며, 그러한 해석이 반대되었다는 징후도 있다.이 편집은 새 CiteSeerX 링크를 명확하게 추가한다.저작권 문제는 차치하고라도, 봇은 승인 범위 밖에서 운영되고 있는 것처럼 보이며, 차단을 해제하기 전에 수정되거나 추가 작업을 승인받아야 한다.Wug·a·po·des 04:52, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 여기 봇 운영자.인용구에 대한 개인적인 선호도가 강한 것은 괜찮다. 예를 들어, 나는 학계와의 연계를 매우 싫어한다.에듀(잘못된 관행) 그리고 만약 누군가가 내가 추가한 인용문에 그들을 추가했다면 나는 그 링크들을 대체할 수 있지만, 나는 사용자가 저작권을 침해하거나 정책을 위반했다고 말하지 않을 것이다. 왜냐하면 WP에서는 보통 그런 경우가 아니기 때문이다.카피링크스.물론 CiteSeerX는 그러한 상업적인 웹사이트, 개인 웹사이트 등에 비해 훨씬 강력한 법적 위치에 있다.

    나는 사용자가 특정 링크의 추가를 방지하고, 잘못된 링크가 있는 경우 반복되지 않도록 하는 블랙리스트 기능을 개발하겠다고 말했다.일부 사용자들은 이 제안을 지지했지만 지금까지 아무도 이 제안의 사용에 관심을 표명하지 않았다.누군가 블랙리스트를 쓸 수 있게 해달라고 부탁하는 대로 실행하겠다, 그때까지 통상적인 한 페이지당 블랙리스트는 {{nobots}}과 친구들과 함께 가능하다.

    평소보다 반응이 안 좋으면 미안해, 나는 현재 바르샤바에서 WU 저작권 전문가들과의 워크숍에서 바빠.네모 07:27, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

아마도 내가 뭔가 오해한 것 같은데 AFAICT는 개인적인 취향과는 관련이 없다.지금까지의 결론은 CiteSeerX가 잠재적인 카피비오를 너무 쉽게 허용하기 때문에 CiteSeerX 링크를 확인하여 WP당 카피비오(copyvio)가 아닐 수 있다는 것이다.카피링크스이에 따라 봇은 CiteSeerX 링크를 자동으로 추가하지 않고 기존 링크만 유지할 수 있다는 조건으로 승인을 받았다.학계를 느끼신다면.에듀도 마찬가지야, 학계에도 똑같이 제안해도 돼.에듀는 봇 정책에 대한 전문가가 아니라 봇 운영자로서 Academy의 자동 추가 기능을 비활성화하는 것도 환영한다.에듀. CiteSeerX에 대한 개인적인 감정은 환영하지만, 그렇지 않으면 지역사회를 설득할 때까지 봇은 승인 조건을 따라야 한다.만약 당신이 CiteSeerX에 대한 당신의 의견에 대해 지역사회를 설득할 수 없다면, 당신은 편집자들이 봇을 사용하여 CiteSeerX를 추가하는 것을 선택할 수 있는 화이트리스트를 제안하는 것이 좋다.이러한 편집자들은 저작권 준수를 위한 링크를 확인하는 그들의 책임을 이해할 필요가 있을 것이다.닐 아인(토크) 11:26, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 모두 안녕, 통보해줘서 고마워.나는 이 런에 관여하지 않는다.나는 위키피디아:라는 평가에 동의한다.봇/승인요청/OAbot 3은 CiteSeerX ID를 추가해서는 안 된다는 점을 합리적으로 명확히 했다(더 명확한 방법으로 진술할 수도 있었지만).네모_bis가 방금 승인 범위를 오해한 것 같다.이 런에서 봇이 터치할 수 있는 파라미터를 열거해 볼 만할 것이다(). citeseerx=그들 중 하나가 되지 않는 것).건배 - 핀토치 (대화) 18:21, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
    • 시스텍스는 만질 수 없다고 하기에는 너무 강한 것 같다.예를 들어, 나는 citseerx를 가리키는 URL을 citseerx 매개변수로 변환하는 것에 반대하지 않을 것이다.David Eppstein (대화) 19:03, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
      • 아 그래, 내가 멀리서 이 일을 따라 하고 있다는 것을 알 수 있듯이… 나는 여러분 모두가 무엇이 효과가 있는지 없는지 제대로 정의할 수 있을 거라고 확신해.- 핀토치 (대화) 19:12, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

여기 말고?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

굿팩트페디아 (토크 · 기여)

Goodfactpedia는 WP:여기 말고.그의 사용자 페이지를 보십시오. 여기 그의 첫 번째 편집과 이 노골적인 POV 템플릿이 있습니다,Aman.kumar.goel (대화) 15:44, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 그들은 확실히 파괴적이다. 그리고 실제로 새로운 사용자들은 템플릿을 만드는 방법을 모르기 때문에 ([39], [40]) - 톰 토마스.W 17:30, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 그리고 적어도 이 화신에서 그들의 짧은 경력은 이제 끝이 났는데, bb23이 적용한 CU 블록 덕분이었다.그럼 이건 닫을 수 있겠군 - 톰 토마스W 17:45, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.
TPA도 이것을 바탕으로 제거되어야 할 것이다.네이트 • (대화) 00:13, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

사용자의 AFD 작동 중단:Sk8erPrince, AfD 라이언 오도노휴 기사

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Sk8erPrince는 이전에 AfDs에서의 행동 때문에 6개월 동안 무기한 금지된 주제를 차단당했고, 그리고 주제 금지가 해제된 후에 그것은 Sk8erPrince의 행동 때문에 복권되었다.다음으로, Sk8erPrince는 AfDs에서 파괴적인 행동을 계속하기 위해 양말 계정을 만들었다는 이유로 무기한 차단되었다.AfD에서 Sk8erPrince에 대한 주제 금지가 해제된 적이 있는지 확실하지 않다.참고: 두 주제 금지 모두 해제되었다(2019년 9월 1일 최신).그러나 Ryan O'Donohue 기사에 반복된 AfDs를 편집하고 배치하는 것은 방해가 된다.

  1. Sk8erPrince는 2017년 7월 Ryan O'Donohue 기사를 최초로 지명하고 나서 2017년 8월 5일 영어 위키백과의 삭제 과정에 대한 편집으로부터 무기한 6개월의 주제발표를 받았다. 이 금지령은 6개월 동안 지속되었다.WP에서 논의 및 주제 금지:ANI 편집자는 주제 금지를 해제했고 토픽 금지는 18일ANI에서 복권되었다.편집자는 다시 항소했고 2019년 9월 1일에 마지막 기회를 얻었다.
  2. sk8erPrince는 (2018년 3월) 주제가 금지된 가운데, 이 기사를 AfD에 번째로 지명하기 위해 MizukaS Specific이라는 양말 계정을 시작했다.당시 2018년 3월 Sock Research 확인 사용자:Sk8erPrince는 외설되었다.2018년 9월 차단이 풀린 것 같나?
  3. 다음 Sk8erPrince는 이 기사를 세 번째로 지명했으며 현재 WP:AfD에 대한 건방지고 파괴적인 태도.영어 위키백과의 삭제 과정과 관련된 편집에 대한 무기한 주제의 금지가 해제된 적이 있는지 여부는 불분명하다.

나는 영어 위키백과의 삭제 과정에 관한 어떠한 편집도 금지할 것을 제안한다.

여보세요나는 당신이 나의 토크 페이지에서 나와 어떤 이슈에 대해 토론하려고 시도하지 않았는데 왜 ANI 보고서가 필요하다고 생각했는지 모르겠다.나는 나를 이성적으로 생각할 수 있는 사람으로 생각하고, 다른 관점에 열려 있다.이 페이지 상단에 있는 요점 중 하나를 인용하면...
이 페이지에 사용자에 대한 불만을 게시하기 전에:
*부활성에 대한 팁을 살펴보십시오.
*사용자의 토크 페이지에서 먼저문제에 대해 논의하십시오.
*또는 분쟁 해결을 시도하십시오.
어쨌든, 당신이 아무런 경고도 없이 보고서를 제출하기로 했으니, 나를 변호할 수 있도록 허락해 주시오.
우선, 여기서 볼 수 있는 AN 토론을 통해 나의 Tban이 *did* 해제되었다는 것을 분명히 하고 싶다. 그것은 나의 AFD 허가에 대한 의심을 덜어줄 것이다.현재, 나는 총 0개의 편집 제한을 가지고 있다.개인적으로, 나는 네가 내 TBAN이 실제로 해제되었는지 아닌지를 확인했어야 한다고 생각한다. 결국 TBAN과 삭제 과정에 참여하고 토론하는 것은 심각한 범죄행위다. 그리고 나는 즉시 제재를 받을 것이다.보고서의 장점과 신뢰도를 낮추지 않았다는 사실.
신뢰성에 대해 말하자면, "Sk8erPrince는 이전에 AfDs에서의 행동 때문에 무기한 차단되었다가 나중에 AfDs에서 파괴적인 행동을 계속하기 위해 양말 계정을 만들었다는 이유로 무기한 차단되었다"는 것은 사실 잘못된 것이다.나는 이 일로 단 한 외설된 적이 없다.처음 차단된 것은 6개월의 기간이었고, AFD보다는 예의상 문제를 위한 것이었다(그 논의의 끝에 나의 TBAN이 복원되었지만).어쨌든, 내 블록 로그를 다시 확인하고 싶으면 확인해.
둘째로, 나는 AFD 규제를 피하기 위해 과거에 미즈카S로서 양말을 했지만, 나는 성공적으로 항소를 받기 전까지 이미 6개월 동안 지속된 방어막으로 내 시간을 보냈다.나는 양봉이 잘못되고 기만적이라는 것을 이해했고, 내가 어떤 삭제 과정에 참여하려면 내 TBAN을 어필해야 한다는 것을 이해했다.
라이언 오도노휴 기사의 세 번째 AFD 최종 후보 지명을 위해 내가 가졌던 유일한 의도는 주제의 공신력에 대해 철저한 논의를 하는 것이다.1차 지명은 당시 티반이 있어 빠르게 마감됐고, 2차 지명은 삭발 중이어서 마감됐다.그들은 절차상의 이유로 문을 닫았고, 따라서 그 주제에 대한 적절한 AFD 토론은 없었다.지명자로서, 나는 그 주제가 주목할 만하다는 것을 확신하지 않는다. 그러나 나는 그 결과를 우아하게 받아들일 것이고 4차 AFD 토론을 위해 그 주제를 다시 설명하지 않을 것이다.
2017년 7월 AFD1이, 2018년 Februrary에서 AFD2가, 2019년 9월 AFD3가 명명된 것도 눈여겨볼 대목이다.개인적으로, AFD는 서로 약 1년 차이가 난다.2년의 기간을 감안할 때 편집자들이 신뢰할 수 있는 출처를 찾아 기사를 더 확대할 수 있는 시간은 충분했다.만약 내가 매달 AFD를 위해 그 기사를 새로 만들었더라면, 실제 문제가 있을 것이다.어떤 경우에도 AFD3의 철저한 논의를 고려할 때, 결과에 이의를 제기하는 것은 의미가 없으므로, 제4차 AFD는 없을 것이다.
마지막으로 나는 제3차 AFD에 참여한 편집자 중 어느 누구도 모욕하지 않았다는 것을 분명히 하고 싶다; 나는 그저 정책을 연계함으로써 반대했을 뿐이다.AFD에서는 합의와 의견 불일치가 있을 수밖에 없다.나는 이미 내 말을 거쳤기 때문에, 이 특정한 논의에서 물러서서 그것이 진로를 진행하도록 내버려두는 것에 반대하지 않는다. 그리고 또한 폭소를 피하는 것 또한 그렇다.나는 최종 관리자의 판단을 신뢰하며 결과에 반대하지 않을 것이다.
PS: 나는 AFD에 대해 간단히 분석하고 싶다 - 기본적으로, 나는 WP:NACTOR만으로도 기사를 보관하기에 충분하다; 나는 그것에 대해 합리적인 의심을 가지고 있다. 그래서 나는 그 주제에 대해 상당한 취재를 요청함으로써 Keep 캠프에 도전했다.내가 찾을 수 있었던 유일한 출처는 사소한 언급이었고, 내 의견으로는 WP에 적합하지 않다.SIGCOV. 내가 그들을 경시하는 곳은 어디에도 없었다. 그것은 단순한 의견 차이였다.AFD가 막바지에 다다랐기 때문에 폐쇄 행정관이 어느 쪽에 더 장점이 있는지 판단할 수 있을 것이다.SK8erPrince (대화) 04:38, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
처음 6개월의 주제 금지에 대한 당신의 말이 옳다.그러나 나는 그 기록을 수정하여 그 금지가 복권되어 너는 두 번 금지된 주제라는 것을 보여 주었다.라이트버스트 (토크) 19:19, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 반대-Sk8erPrince는 현재 어떠한 편집상의 제약도 받고 있지 않으며 지금 그들의 행동이 새로운 편집상의 제약을 가하는 것을 정당화하지는 않는다.나는 이것이 AfD 과정으로부터 다른 의견을 가진 사람을 제거하는 것에 대한 것이 아니라 실제적인 혼란에 대한 것이라고 의심한다.Reyk 04:52, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
  • Sk8erPrince 코멘트에는 다른 어떤 것이든 간에, 특히 여러분이 강조했던 대부분의 연령대를 고려할 때, 고민에 대해 그들과 이야기하지 않는 것이 ANI를 여는 것을 의심스럽게 만든다는 좋은 점이 있다.심지어 네가 그들과 이야기하지 않을 이유가 없어 보여서, 그들이 너를 그들의 토크 페이지나 다른 곳에서 금지시킨 것도 아니야.그들은 과거에 문제가 있었지만 이제 오랜만이다.만약 그들이 그 문제들에 다시 빠져들고 있고 내가 그렇다고 말하는 것이 아니라면, 먼저 그들에게 그것에 대해 이야기해라.문제를 설명하기 위해, 당신은 "영어 위키백과의 삭제 과정과 관련된 어떠한 편집에 대한 무기한 주제 금지가 해제된 적이 있는지 없는지는 불분명하다"고 말한다.그리고 당신이 말하는 바로 다음 문장은 "나는 영어 위키백과의 삭제 과정과 관련된 어떠한 편집도 금지할 것을 제안한다"이다.그래서 기본적으로 당신이 제안한 것은 완전히 불필요할 수도 있는 것에 대해 토론하는 겁니다.만약 Sk8erPrince가 이미 금지된 주제라면, 그들은 주제 금지를 상기할 수 있고, 그들이 성공적으로 그것에 호소하지 않는 한, 향후 위반이 시행될 수 있다.주제 금지가 풀린 것으로 밝혀졌듯이, SK8erPrince에게 그것에 대해 물어본다면 아마 이 사실을 알 것이다.그러나 넌 하지 않았다.닐 아인(토크) 05:54, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
    BTW, 1번 댓글은 나중에 댓글이 뜨면 항상 헷갈려.2017년에 Sk8erPrince가 6개월 동안 토픽을 금지했다면, 어떤 식으로든 연장되지 않는 한 이 토픽 금지는 끝날 것이다.그래서 그것은 분명하기 때문에 "불분명하다"는 말은 없을 것이다.그러나 당신이 강조했던 주제 금지(더 직접적인 링크 [41])는 6개월 동안 지속되는 주제 금지 사항이 아니었다.그것은 항소하기 전에 최소 6개월이 필요한 주제 금지였다.(매우 일반적인 요구 사항)이것은 중요한 구별이다.닐 아인(토크) 06:06, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC) 12:49, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
    P.S. 위에 글을 쓸 때 주제 금지가 겨우 두 달 전에 풀린 줄 몰랐다.이것은 과거의 비행으로 되돌아가는 것을 훨씬 더 걱정스럽게 만든다.그리고 AfD를 보면, Sk8erPrince가 한 것 같은 응답의 수가 걱정스러워 보인다.나는 여전히 내 의견을 고수한다. 의사소통의 시도가 전혀 이루어지지 않았을 때 ANI를 평가하는 것은 매우 어렵다.사실, 어떤 면에서는, 이것은 문제를 더 잘 보여준다.만약 당신이 ANI를 개설하고 우리에게 '그들은 금지된 주제였다, 9월 1일에 해제되는 주제'라고 말했다면, 이것은 '그들은 금지된 주제였다, 아마도 그들은 여전히 금지된 주제일 것이다, 하지만 어쨌든 정확히 같은 주제 금지에 대해 토론을 벌이자'보다 훨씬 더 효과적일 것이다.닐 아인(토크) 06:25, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
Nil Einne, 나는 토론의 반대편에 과도하게 반응하는 것이 실책으로 간주된다는 것을 이해한다. 그래서 나는 그 AFD에 대해 더 이상 언급하지 않고 그것이 진행되도록 놔두지 않을 것임을 분명히 했다.앞으로, 나는 AFD에서 투표 유지(또는 그 반대)를 반박할 어떠한 시도도 하지 않을 것이다.이번에는 도를 넘었고, 더 잘 할 수 있었다는 것을 인정한다.궁극적으로는 어느 쪽이 더 강한 주장을 가지고 있는지 결정하는 것은 마무리 관리자의 몫이다. --Sk8erPrince (대화) 06:40, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 지원 주제 금지, 그러나 Ryan O'Donohue 관련 주제에서만 나는 R O'D PBp 04:27, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]에 관한 주제 이상으로 악용될 증거가 거의 보이지 않는다.

현재 수정된 오프닝에 대한 토론: 다음 항목으로 수정:Sk8erPrince는 두 번 금지되고 복권되었으며, 또한 Sk8erPrince는 한때 양말 사용으로 외설되었다.

@닐 아인:나는 AfD에 있는 그들에게 그 행동을 멈추라고 말했다.그리고 나서 나는 이것이 사용자와의 패턴이라는 것을 알게 되었고 최종 경고와 함께 6개월의 금지라는 결과를 낳았다.편집자는 심지어 그 목적을 위해 양말 계정을 만드는 것까지 이 기사를 삭제하기로 결심한 것 같다.편집자는 WP:AfD와 여기에서의 토론에 대해 맹비난하고 있다.확실히 하자면, 편집자는 정말로 양말질하는 것에 대한 관념이 있었다.그러나 AfD에서 미개한 행동의 종류로 인해 6개월의 정직 처분을 받았다.과거와 현재의 행동은 수용 가능한 WP 행동의 규범 밖에 있다.마지막 WP:ANI 결과, AfDs에서의 6개월 금지, 그리고 현재의 행동과 함께 뻔뻔스러운 변명은 그 규율이 원하는 효과를 거두지 못했음을 보여준다.라이트버스트 (토크) 14:03, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
@Lightburst:만약 당신이 그들의 행동에 대해 누군가와 진지한 토론을 하고 싶다면, 그들의 대화 페이지에서 그렇게 해야 한다.AFD는 누군가의 행동을 논할 장소가 아니다.'절제해야 할 것 같다'거나 비슷한 간단한 댓글을 남기는 것도 무리가 아닐 수 있지만, ANI를 열기 전에 열어야 할 어떤 적절한 논의도 AFD에서는 할 수 없다.당신이 '나는 이 사람을 주제를 금지하고 싶지만, 그들은 이미 정확히 같은 주제 금지법을 가지고 있을지도 모른다'라고 말했기 때문에 우리는 이것에 대한 좋은 증거를 가지고 있다.그들이 이미 당신이 제안했던 것과 똑같은 주제 금지의 대상인지도 몰랐을 때, 당신이 그들의 행동에 대해 편집자와 적절한 논의를 했다고 믿는 것은 거의 불가능하기 때문에, 그것으로부터 회복하는 것은 거의 불가능하다.또한 우리는 위키백과에 사람들을 '수양'하지 않는다.닐 아인(토크) 14:30, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
@Nil Einne: 대화 페이지에 있는 의사소통에 관한 좋은 제안이지만, 필요하지는 않다 - "제안".나는 이것을 나와 편집자 사이의 분쟁으로 보지 않았으므로 분쟁해결은 적절하지 않다.WP 커뮤니티에서 행동 금지를 초래한 같은 행동을 반복한 편집자다.우리는 편집자가 6개월 동안 금지된 주제라는 것을 확인하고 최종 경고를 했다.내가 이제 그 금지가 최종 경고와 함께 해제되었다는 것을 알고 있다는 것은 분명하고, 또한 그 규율이 원하는 효과를 거두지 못했다는 것도 분명하다.여러분은 그것을 훈육이라고 부르지 않기로 결정할 수 있지만, 위키백과에서 금지되는 것은 훈육이며, 진보적이고 시정적이며, 강압적이고 파괴적인 것이 아니다.나는 파괴적인 행동의 패턴을 가지고 있는 편집자를 지적하고 있다.라이트버스트 (토크) 14:50, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답]
알고 보니 편집자는 2017년 토픽 금지로 인해 편집자의 행동이 반복적으로 금지된 후 AfD 토픽이 두 번 금지되었고 동일한 이유로 편집자는 AfD 토픽이 두 번 금지되었다.이 때문에 편집자가 최종 경고를 받은 것으로 보인다.나는 그 진술을 수정했다.게다가 가장 최근의 주제 금지는 2019년 9월 1일에 해제되었다.개회사를 수정하여 Lightburst (토크) 17:36, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답] 링크를 제공하였다.
당신은 내 토크 페이지에 아무런 의사소통 시도도 없이 나에 대한 잘못된 보고서를 만들었고, 타임라인과 몇 가지 요점을 틀리게 만들었고, 게다가 당신은 내 TBAN이 해제되었는지조차 확인하려 하지 않았다.물론, 내 토크페이지에서 먼저 나와 이 문제에 대해 이야기할 필요는 없을지 모르지만, 여전히 강력히 추천한다.그렇지 않다면 왜 그 점이 이 페이지의 맨 위에 언급되었을까?

위키피디아에는 편집요약을 쓰는 것과 같이 요구되지 않는 것들이 많이 있다.사람들은 그것이 그 프로젝트에 대한 관습적인 관행이고, 그들은 관련된 모든 사람들에게 도움이 되기 때문에 여전히 그것들을 쓴다.의무는 없어도 관례에 종사하는 것이 좋다.

그리고 내가 제3차 오도노휴 AFD에서 장황했던 것은 인정하지만, 내가 반론을 제기할 때 다른 편집자들을 "공격"했다고 비난하는 것은 말도 안 된다.[1]

과거에 나는 AFD에 무표정하게 참여했고 내 반박에 정책을 인용하는 대신 반대당을 경시했다.비교를 위해, 여기 오래된 AFD에 대한 링크들이 있는데, 그때 내 행동이 정말로 문제가 되었던 것이다. [2] [3]

모든 면에서, 나는 제3차 오도노휴 AFD에 비교적 침착하게 참여했다고 말하고 싶다.만약 정책적으로 인용된 유효한 반론을 제시하는 것이 "공격적인" 것으로 간주된다면, 나는 AFD 과정에 대한 당신의 이해뿐만 아니라 AFD의 확립된 규범에 대한 당신의 이해도 의심스럽다는 것을 알게 된다.

내가 어느 시점에 여기서 "실수"했는가?그럼 나만의 방어를 제공하고 당신의 매우 오해의 소지가 있는 보고서에 사실상의 오류를 지적하는 것은 잘못된 것인가?당신은 다른 사람들이 당신의 보고서의 실수를 지적했을 때 뒷걸음질만 쳤을 뿐인데, 이것은 당신의 보고서의 신뢰성을 크게 손상시킨다.또한 차단 정책 페이지에서 요청 블록 섹션을 인용하려면:블록을 요청하는 사용자는 블록을 보증하는 상황에 대한 신뢰할 수 있는 증거를 제공해야 한다.이 경우 당신이 나에게 강요하려는 것은 TBan이지만, 같은 논리가 적용된다.지금까지, 당신의 보고서는 불확실성, 내 역사에 대한 적절한 연구 부족과 사실적으로 잘못된 정보를 제시한다는 이유로 불명확한 것으로 증명되었으니, 나는 당신이 오해할 의도를 가지고 그것을 했다고 믿게 만든다.

분명히 내가 무기한 차단당한 횟수에 대한 연구가 부족했는데, 내 차단 로그를 확인하면 쉽게 확인할 수 있다.나는 단 한 번 외설되었지만, 너는 내가 이 일로 두 번 외설되었다고 주장했다.당신은 또한 당신이 보고서를 제출하기 전에 나의 삭제 과정 제한이 풀렸는지 여부를 확인하지 않았다.그러한 불확실성과 그 문제들에 대해 먼저 이야기하려는 어떠한 시도도 없는 상황에서, 나는 당신이 당신의 보고서의 타당성이 매우 의심스럽다는 것을 알 수 있을 것이라고 확신한다.

마지막으로, AFD를 위해 오도노휴 기사를 리노믹스하기 위해 내가 특별히 양말 퍼핏을 만들었다는 너의 주장도 사실 틀렸다.네 보고서의 그 부분을 간단히 인용할게.sk8erPrince는 (2018년 3월) 주제가 금지된 가운데, 이 기사를 AfD에 두 번째로 지명하기 위해 MizukaS Specific이라는 양말 계정을 시작했다.핑계는 아니지만, 그 양말의 편집 카운트는 단순히 AFD용 오도노휴 기사를 다시 작성하는 것 이상으로 만들어졌다는 것을 분명히 보여준다.결과적으로 나는 그런 죄에 대한 대가를 치렀고, 나는 이미 복역한 상태였다.

그것으로 내 말을 했다. --Sk8erPrince (토크) 22:34, 2019년 10월 11일 (UTC)[응답하라]

처음에 Sk8erPrince의 첫 번째 주제 금지 토론을 마감하고 편집 제한에 등록한 사람이 바로 나였다.내가 여기서 잘못한 것이 없다고 본 사건에 대한 리뷰에서, Sk8erPrince는 다른 사람들이 동의한 자신의 사건에 대한 정당한 이유를 들어 삭제 기사를 정확하게 지명했다(사실 나는 그 기사를 삭제해야 한다고 생각한다, 나는 여기서 그것을 갖는 것을 정당화할 만한 주요 공로가 없다고 본다).말하자면, 나는 Sk8erPrince가 왜 NACTOR를 근거로 한 그들의 유지 표가 정확히 잘못된 것인지 설명하려는 효과에 대해 각 Keep!voters에게 대답했다고 본다.따라서, 나는 기술적으로 허용되지만 그러한 활동은 파괴적인 편집으로 해석될 수 있다는 것을 SK8erPrince에게 상기시켜주고 싶다. 따라서 편집자가 다른 쪽에 논평하거나 회신하는 것을 자제할 것을 권고하고 싶다. 우리는 모두 다른 의견을 가질 것이고, 그것은 괜찮아야 한다.기억하라, 그것은 투표에 관한 것이 아니라 합의에 관한 것이다. 따라서 행정가들은 토론에서 더 강력한 주장을 받아들일 것이다.톰스타81 (토크) 04:00, 2019년 10월 12일 (UTC)[응답]

마감요청

최근 오도노휴 AFD가 종결된 것감안할 때, 이 보고서를 닫을 수 있을까?위에서 말한 바와 같이 기사를 그대로 두고 삭제를 위해 리노믹스하지 않을 것이다. --Sk8erPrince (대화) 03:26, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

저키, 저속 이동 중단 패턴

카슈미르 문다(토크 · 기고)는 귀족 기사에 유용한 부가물을 제공하고 있지만, WP:자본화에 관한 정보를 입수했음에도 불구하고 불필요한 자본화(특히 「라이프 피어지」와 「계도피어지」)에 요령이 있는 것 같다.반응이 없다.이런 행동은 정확히 같은 전술을 사용하는 차단된 사용자 A H 버트(토크 · 기여)를 연상시킨다.아마도 그들은 여러 개의 계정을 운영하고 있을 것이다.

핸섬펠라 (대화) 09:37, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

카슈미르 문다는 현재 WP를 위반하고 있다.되돌아가서 BRD.핸섬펠라 (대화) 15:43, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
자네가 여기 올리기 몇 분 전에 그에게 상황을 설명하려고 시도했던 게 딱 한 번 보이는군 그리고 즉시 반달4im 경고와 보고가 여기 있네속도를 좀 줄여라.응대할 시간을 좀 줘. --Jayron32 16:26, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
  • @HandsomeFella: 나는 그 양말에 대해 너의 의견에 동의한다.사용자를 SPI: 위키백과:Sockpuppet 조사/A H Butt.--Bbb23 (대화) 17:14, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 그냥 이름에 대한 배경 정보."버트"는 일반적인 카슈미르 성(때로는 바트(Bhat)으로 표기되기도 한다."문다"는 푼자비에서 소년을 의미하며, 카슈미르를 관리하는 파키스탄에는 상당수의 푼자비스가 있으며, 인도에서 관리하는 카슈미르에도 어느 정도 있다.이 2개의 계정은 대부분 같은 사용자 소유일 가능성이 높다.--DreamLinker (talk) 18:37, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

렌스타85

지난해부터 복수의 경고에도 비소싱 BLP 계속 추가 - FlightTime(오픈 채널) 21:03, 2019년 10월 17일(UTC)[응답]

참고 모든 사용자 편집은 해당 페이지에만 적용되며, COI/Payment 이슈도 가능하다. - FlightTime (오픈 채널) 21:11, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

명확한 WP:COI계정

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.


이 사용자가 재스퍼 라인이 확실해그 계정은 거의 독점적으로 재스퍼 리네 기사(그리고 리네와 관련된 다른 기사들 중에서 부정적인 정보)를 편집하기 위해 존재하며, 그 밖에 몇 가지 편집된 내용은 그의 연구 분야와 관련이 있는 것으로 보이는 기사들이다.여기에는 분명한 이해충돌이 있다.다크나이트2149 05:00, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

그 기사는 심각한 문제를 안고 있다; 살아 있는 사람들에 대한 부정적인 주장은 유튜브 동영상이 아닌 믿을 수 있는 보조 자료로 보내져야 한다.노스비사우스바라노프 (대화) 05:05, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
이해충돌로 인해 복원되었을 뿐이다.만약 당신이 편집에 대한 책임을 진다면, 자유롭게 그것을 제거해라.그럼에도 불구하고, 편집 이력을 간단히 살펴보면, 이 계정이 거의 독점적으로 Rine을 홍보하기 위해 존재한다는 것을 알 수 있다.다크나이트2149 05:11, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
이해충돌이었든 아니든 간에, 그 자료는 복원되지 말았어야 했다 - WP:BLP는 여기서 통제하고 있고, Rine에 대한 당신의 비소싱적이고 서투른 부정청구를 복구하는 것은 잘못된 것이다.노스비사우스바라노프 (대화) 05:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 말했듯이, 어떻게 해서든 그것에 대해 강하게 느끼지는 않는다.그것은 순전히 WP에서 제거되었다.COI 근거지, 그러니 제거에 대한 책임을 지신다면 계속 진행하십시오.아무도 널 말리거나 이의를 제기하지 않아다크나이트2149 05:15, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
요점을 놓치셨군요.당신이 자료를 복원한 것은 절대적으로 부적절했고, 반복하면 차단될 것 같은 종류의 일이었습니다.WilyD 09:40, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 거의 요점을 놓친 게 아니야, 너는 아래에 내 답장을 봐야 해.계속 이 일을 해나가겠다고 고집한다면, 계속 저 아래로 내려가는 게 좋을 거야.다크나이트2149 10:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
아래에서 읽었는데, 네가 요점을 완전히 놓치고 있다는 것을 아주 강하게 나타내고 있다.네 번복은 완전히 부적절했어 그리고 넌 네가 망쳤다는 걸 인정하려 하지 않았어만약 당신이 완전히 부적절한 편집을 했다는 것을 인정하고 싶지 않다면, 그리고 앞으로도 살아있는 사람들에 대한 글쓰기에 대한 정책 위반을 계속 할 계획이라면, 나는 당신이 그 정책을 숙지할 때까지 당신의 계정을 차단하고 싶다.사실, 중요한 부분은 명확한 오류와 잠재적으로 믿을 수 없는 정보를 제거하기 위해 여러분 자신에 대한 기사를 편집할 수 있다는 것이다.전기_of_live_명 #Dealing_with_articles_about_yourselfWilyD 11:59, 2019년 10월 17일(UTC)4[응답]
WilyD 나는 원래 편집자가 BLP 정책을 완전히 이해하지 못한다고 생각한다.문제의 편집 내용을 살펴보면, 하나는 유튜브 동영상으로 소싱되는 전혀 알 수 없는 사건(노트북 도난에 대한 교실 내 논쟁)이었다.다른 하나는 어느 정도 (다른 교수에 대한 종신 재직권에 대한) 공신력을 가져야 할 것으로 보이지만, 연결된 출처가 작성되는 진술을 완전히 지지하지는 않았다.이 두 번째 호는 Rine 기사에 속하지만, BLP에 대한 기대에 부합하도록 더 잘 쓰고 철저히 소싱되어야 할 것이다.It was wrong of Darkknight2149 to restore the content without carefully reviewing the source, even if it turns out that the person who removed it had a COI. COI does not trump BLP, and we do not include unsourced material in a BLP solely because someone with a COI wants to remove it. 208.185.237.210 (talk) 12:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
이것은 다소 정확하다.복원된 두 번째 단락은 완전히 부적절했다.첫 번째 것은, 나는 그것의 일부 변형된 버전이 복원될 수 있다는 것을 믿을 수 있었다.하지만 그렇다, COI는 BLP를 능가하지 않을 뿐만 아니라, BLP는 난초 위를 달리는 불도저처럼 COI를 압도한다.WilyD 13:09, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
Darknight2149 나는 BLP 정책이 COIbehavioural 가이드라인을 능가한다는 것을 이것으로부터 빼앗으려는 메시지가 있다고 생각한다.계정에 COI가 있다고 의심되면, CONE에서 당연히 우려를 제기하지만, 부정적인 콘텐츠를 BLP로 복원하기 전에 주의 깊게 살펴보아야 한다. 소싱이 신뢰할 수 있으며, 제대로 콘텐츠를 지원하는가?그렇지 않다면 BLP 위반이며, 누가 제거했든, 왜 제거했든 복원해서는 안 된다.복원을 선택하면 콘텐츠와 소싱에 대한 책임을 진다.그게 말이 되길 바래 - 노스비사우스바라노프는 지금 다시 그것을 제거했기 때문에 나는 여기서 더 이상의 조치가 필요하지 않다고 생각하지만, 단지 미래를 위해 명심해야 할 것일지도 모른다.GirthSummit (blether) 09:33, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
@거스 서밋:과거에 Jforsayeth가 얼마나 산발적으로 편집했는지를 고려할 때, 나는 그들이 다시 편집하지 않을 것이라고 가정할 이유가 없다고 본다.이 보고서 때문에 양말 꼭두각시를 만든다는 건 예외야.
BLP에 대해서는, 출처를 그다지 깊이 들여다보지는 않았지만, 인용과 외부 링크(내용과 함께 복원)에 의해 뒷받침된 것으로 알고 있다.나는 순전히 개인적인 이유로 인용된 내용이 삭제된 것을 보고 그에 따라 행동했다.만약 NorthBySouthBaranof는 그 원천들을 더 깊이 들여다보고 그들이 불만족스럽다는 것을 발견했고, 그것들을 제거해야 할 책임이 그에게 있을 것이다.Jforsayeth는 또한 그 내용에 대해 다른 곳에서 논의를 시작할 수 있었지만, 대신에 그의 이익을 위해 우리의 정책을 위반하는 것을 선택했다.다크나이트2149 10:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
@NorthBy사우스바라노프:궁금한데, 출처를 확인할 때 외부 링크를 조사하셨나요?신체 내용물과 함께 외부 링크를 제거하지 않았고, 2차 출처가 없다고 주장하는 것을 고려하면, 나는 그렇게 생각하지 않는다.다크나이트2149 10:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
다크나이트2149, 존중하지만, 나는 네가 이것을 좀 더 심각하게 받아들여야 한다고 생각해.우리는 출처의 신뢰성과 그들이 실제로 주장을 지지하는지 여부를 주의 깊게 확인하지 않고 BLP로 부정적인 물질을 복원해서는 안 된다.거기에는 인용이 있다는 것을 아는 것만으로는 충분하지 않다 - 우리는 복구하기 전에 확인해야 한다. 그렇지 않으면 정책을 위반할 위험이 있다. 그것은 나쁜 일이다.어쨌든 그건 내 조언이야. 네가 할 일을 해.GirthSummit (blether) 11:08, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
거스 서밋 - 내게는 다크나이트2149가 내용을 복원하기 전에 출처를 검토하지 않았을 가능성이 높다.그랬더니, 노트북 사건과 관련된 출처가 사실 유명성이나 신뢰성의 징후가 없는 유튜브 비디오에 불과하다는 것을 알게 되었다.샤펠라 사건과 관련된 출처가 더 좋았지만, 조항에 기재된 주장을 충분히 검증하지 않았다.208.185.237.210 (대화) 13:38, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
마지막 편집은 몇 년 전이었다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 05:08, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
@NinjaRobotPirate:그 계정이 수년간 산발적으로 편집되었을 때 정말 적절한 방어책인가?어느 순간 편집간격이 5년이었다.작동해야 할 이유가 있거나 사용자가 마음에 들지 않는 Rine 관련 정보를 발견했을 때 작동한다는 것은 분명하다.다크나이트2149 05:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
분명한 것은 Jforsayeth 계정이 2010년 1월 22일에 Bine 기사에 첫 번째 편집을 했고, 6일 후에 그 기사에 대한 마지막 편집을 했다는 것이다.당신이 WP를 위반하기로 선택했다는 사실 이외에는 다른 어떤 것도 명확하지 않다:BLP 정책은 17번만 편집한 적이 있는 계정에서 스스로 판사와 배심원으로 활동하도록 한 후, 위키피디아의 손해에 대해 어떤 식으로든 가본 적이 없는 것처럼 보인다.86.134.75.242 (대화) 09:07, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
확실하지 않은 것은 당신이 여기에 성실하게 오기로 결정했는지 아니면 내가 WP를 열어야 하는지 여부다.SPI. 당신의 IP 주소는 지금까지 위키피디아를 편집한 적이 없고, 이상하게도 이것에 감정적으로 투자되어 있으며, 당신은 의심스럽게 사실을 왜곡하는 것을 선택했다.당신이 언급하고 있는 "첫 번째 편집"은 계정, 기간에 대한 첫 번째 편집이다.이 계정은 거의 전적으로 재스퍼 리네에게 유리하게 편집되었고, 또한 그를 좀 더 긍정적인 시각으로 그리기 위해 다른 기사의 인용된 내용을 바꾸었다.사용자 이름 또한 재스퍼의 실명과 직업으로 체크아웃한다.명확한 편향과 계정 목적은 최대한 노골적이다.다크나이트2149 10:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그들이 재스퍼 라인이거나 그들과 밀접한 관련이 있는 사람일 가능성이 매우 높다.그들이 위키피디아에서 BLP 위반을 끌어내야 한다면, 그들이 아니라 우리가 망친 거야.WilyD 13:16, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
(ec) 나는 어떤 사실도 '설문'하지 않았다.그리고 위키피디아가 BLP 정책 위반의 플랫폼으로 이용되는 것에 대해 편견을 갖는 것이 정확히 무슨 문제인가?만약 그 계정이 재스퍼 리네라면, 그는 그 당시 정책에 따라 그 자료를 제거할 수 있는 충분한 자격이 있었다.그는 지금 그것을 제거할 수 있는 충분한 자격이 있다.WP:BLP는 정책이다: "소싱되지 않았거나 소싱되지 않은 생활인에 대한 내용물은 논의 없이 즉시 제거되어야 한다."기사의 주제를 포함하여 누구에 의해서도 제거된다.WP:BLP는 협상의 여지가 없다.WP:COI는 지침이다.해당 편집 이후 크게 변경된 가이드라인.그리고 현행 지침에서도 COI가 의심되는 신규 계정에서 편집한 내용에 대한 올바른 대응은 WP의 존재를 기고자에게 알리는 것이다.COI 가이드라인은 지침을 통보받은 후에만 준수하지 않을 경우 여기에서 도움을 요청하십시오.'감정적 투자'에 대해서는, 전적으로 무의미한 SPI를 요구하는 것이 대표적인 예라고 생각했을 것이다.아니면, 9년 전에 편집한 것(대개 미국에서 온, 당신의 의혹이 맞다면)을 어쩌면 한 달에 한 번 정도 변경되는 영국 기반의 동적 IP와 연결시킬 수 있다고 생각하는가? 86.134.75.242 (대화) 13:21, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
난 그저... 와우.아니, 당신이 말하는 것에 문제를 찾기 위해 피고인 계정의 꼭두각시 인형일 필요는 없다."그 계정은 거의 전적으로 Jasper Rine에게 유리하게 편집되었고, 또한 그를 더 긍정적으로 그리기 위해 다른 기사의 인용된 내용을 변경했다"고 주장하면서, 당신이 내세우는 추가 사례도 그 계정 실행 첫 주부터라고 주장한다.이후 거의 10년 동안 계정에서 편집한 나머지 4개 기사에서는 '린'은 언급조차 되지 않았다('우리네', '내분비' 같은 것은 제외한다고 가정한다).이것을 끊임없이 돌고 있는 어떤 계정으로 그리려다 보면 스켈치 리네 관련 소재가 실제 기록과 강하게 충돌하고 있다. --Nat Gertler (토크) 16:27, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • @Darknight2149: BLP 위반을 복구하는 과정에서 발생한 당신의 실수를 명시적으로 인정하고 향후 더욱 주의할 것을 착수했던 곳을 알려주시겠습니까?그러한 확신이 없다면, 나는 지역사회가 우리의 가장 중요한 정책들 중 하나를 더 이상 위반하지 않도록 하기 위해 BLP로부터의 토픽 금지를 고려해야 할 것이라고 생각한다.건배,———SerialNumber54129 13:05, 2019년 10월 17일(UTC)[응답]

설명:Jasper Rine 페이지에 있는 Darknight2149 (talk · concidents)가 무심코 복원한 BLP 위반 때문에 정말 고민이다.이 diff를 보면 그가 유튜브 동영상에 소싱한 자료를 추가한 것을 알 수 있다.이해충돌 가능성이 있는 사용자를 막으려는 그의 열성 속에서 BLP 정책을 자신도 모르게 짓밟은 것이 아닌가 하는 걱정이 든다.이와 같은 자료는 기사에 추가(또는 재첨부)하지 않는 것이 중요하며, 이해충돌과 싸우는 것도 중요하지만, 정책위반 내용을 기사에 복원하여 전적으로 부적절하다. 208.185.237.210 (대화) 12:48, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

10년 전에 있었던 두 번의 편집 때문에 이 모든 리그마롤이 일어나고 있다고 믿어야 할까?좋은 슬픔. 107.77.204.109 (대화) 14:14, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 다크나이트2149는 BLP 붕괴의 연속은 아닐 것이다.하지만 그가 반달리즘 단위 아카데미에 등록해 더 강력한 정책 배경과 교란 순찰에 나선다면 나쁠 게 없다.때로는 순찰이 까다로울 수 있다.NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:53, 2019년 10월 17일(UTC):*[응답하라]
Darknight2149, 위의 닌자 로보트피레이트의 제안을 받아들이고 싶다면, 나는 CVUA 트레이너고 슬롯을 열어 두어라. - 기꺼이 코스를 안내하겠다.관심 있으시면 알려주시면 교육 페이지를 설정해 드리겠읍니다.
귀찮게 - 서명하고 Darknight2149를 다시 입력한다.GirthSummit (blether) 16:37, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 분명히 하자면, 나는 다크나이트2149가 나쁜 믿음이나 파괴적인 편집자임을 믿지 않으며, 이런 행동이 만성적인 문제나 어떤 종류의 제재를 보증하는 것이라고 생각하지 않는다.나는 단지 그의 위의 언급이 그가 그것을 완전히 인식하지 못하는 것처럼 (아마도 잘못) 보이게 하기 때문에 그가 여기서 BLP 문제를 진정으로 이해하려고 노력하는 것이 중요하다고 말하고 있다.그는 인용문이 있는 한 BLP에 원하는 것은 무엇이든 쓸 수 있고, COI가 있는 사람이 삭제하면 문제가 있거나 의심스럽게 소싱된 콘텐츠라도 복원해야 한다고 믿는 것 같았다.나는 단지 그가 이 접근방식이 잘못되었다는 것을 이해하고 있고, 이와 같은 것을 되돌릴 때 그는 그들이 WP라는 것을 확실히 하기 위해 출처를 스스로 읽어야 한다는 것을 확실히 하고 싶다.RS(유튜브 영상이 대개 그렇지 않음)와 그 출처가 실제로 거기에 무엇이 있는지 말해준다는 것이다.9년 전, 그 내용을 삭제한 사람이 COI를 가지고 있었다는 사실은 신뢰할 수 있는 출처와 검증 가능한 내용에 대한 정책 요건을 부정하는 것은 문제가 되지 않는다.그게 다야. 208.185.237.210 (대화) 15:20, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 아마 네 말이 맞을 거야. 하지만 적어도 그들이 잘못했다는 걸 인정했으면 좋겠어. 내가 단기적으로 상황이 해결되었다고 확신하기 전에 상황을 악화시키려 하지 마.WilyD 15:45, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

다크나이트2149의 댓글

워, 워, 워, 워.

막 침대에서 일어났는데, 위키피디아 계정을 확인하자마자 뇌졸중으로 쓰러질 뻔했다.이것은 혼란스러운 혼란이다.나는 다른 사용자들의 말을 기꺼이 듣겠지만, 378명의 사람들이 나와 같은 비난을 하기 위해 몰려들어 서로 걸려 넘어지는 모든 코멘트에 대해 "화끈화끈" 놀이를 하려고 어수선한 실을 위아래로 스크롤하지는 않는다.분명한 WP의 선의의 반전을 두고 혈압이 올라가도록 놔두지 않을 것이다.COI 편집.내가 여기서 어떤 것을 읽거나, 고려하거나, 회신하기를 기대한다면, 나는 다음과 같이 제안하고 싶다.

  • 당신은 이 실을 구조적으로 완전히 재편성하고, 모두가 침착하고 질서 있게 나에게 고민을 설명해 준다.이 뒤죽박죽인 실타래 속에서 내가 어떻게 모든 것을 추적하고 나를 제대로 방어할 수 있을 거라고 기대하는 사람이 있는지 확실하지 않다.
  • 1~2일 전까지만 해도 편집을 시작하지 않은 IP 주소라면 왜 양말 인형/고기 인형인지, 그리고 이 실을 어떻게 발견했는지에 대해 강력한 주장을 펴보라고 제안한다. 왜냐하면 나는 WP를 열려고 하기 때문이다.SPI.
  • WP로 고발된 것은 이번이 처음이다.BLP, 그러니까 나에게 가해진 모든 제재는 곧바로 대법원으로 갈 것이다.나는 적어도 Jforsayeths 편집의 12/17은 긍정적인 시각으로 자신을 그리는 이유 때문에 만들어지고, 나머지 몇 가지는 다른 기사들의 왜곡된 편집일 뿐이라는 것을 알고 있다.재스퍼가 WP에 대해 우려하는 경우:BLP, 그는 다른 편집자들의 주목을 쉽게 끌 수 있었다.어쩌면 내가 해야 할 만큼 출처를 깊이 들여다보지는 않았는지도 모르지만, 그들이 실제로 그곳에 있었다는 것을 알고 있고 더 인콰이어러는 ABC 뉴스를 인용하며 노트북 사건은 비디오로 뒷받침되었다.이그나시오 샤펠라 스캔들 코너도 대학 홈페이지에서 뒷받침을 하는 것으로 보였다.그리고 내가 보기에 편집된 내용은 순전히 그의 이미지를 개선하기 위해 기사의 주제에 의해 삭제된 것이 분명했다.또한 여기서 그는 보다 긍정적인 시각으로 자신을 그리기 위해 문장을 약간 바꾸게 되었다.그렇다, 이것은 WP의 강력한 사례다.COI.

이러한 우려가 해소될 때까지, 당신은 Girth Summit이 그랬던 것처럼 내 토크 페이지에서 나에게 연락하면 되는데, 당신들 중 500명이 나를 떼지어 몰려들지 않고 나는 그것에 대해 합리적으로 대응할 수 있다.거스, 곧 답장할게.다크나이트2149 21:00, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

다크나이트2149, BLP에 대한 너의 이해는 틀렸고, 그것이 바로 우리들 대부분이 이 실에서 빼앗아 가는 것이다.다른 경험 많은 편집자들이 위에서 말한 것을 이해하도록 노력하라.여기 정책 페이지에서 요약할 수 있는 핵심 노선이 있다 - "부정적이든, 긍정적이든, 중립적이든, 아니면 단지 의문스러운, 또는 비위생적이거나, 근래에 죽은 사람에 대한 논쟁적인 자료는 논의를 기다리지 않고 즉시 제거되어야 한다." 어니(대화) 06:43, 18 옥토브er 2019 (UTC)[응답하라]

86.134.75.242로부터의 응답

WP 위반을 제거하는 데 이해 상충은 없다.BLP 정책.정말 아르브컴에 가서 설명을 들어야 한다면, 부담 갖지 말고. 86.134.75.242 (대화) 21:43, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
와, 재스퍼.WP가 다음과 같은 사실을 증명해 주셔서 감사하다.SPI는 100% 필수적이다: [42], [43], [44].1, 2일 전까지만 해도 편집을 시작하지 않았던 IP주소들이 여기에도 계속 나타난다는 게 신기하다.사실, 당신의 모든 편집은 이 논쟁에서 나온 것이다.다크나이트2149 22:26, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 내가 편집한 모든 것은 이 논쟁에서 나온 것이 아니다.나는 당신의 계정이 등록된 것보다 위키피디아를 더 오랫동안 편집해왔다.그러나 나는 비교적 자주 바뀌는 동적 IP를 내 ISP가 선택했을 때 편집하고 있다.나는 물론 계정을 등록할 수 있었지만(과거에 계정을 가지고 있었지만, 비밀번호가 없기 때문에 더 이상 접속할 수 없다) 어떠한 위키백과 정책이나 가이드라인에서도 나에게 의무적인 것은 아무것도 없다.나는 당신이 여기서 논의 중인 실제 문제에 대해 향후의 회신을 막아야 한다고 제안한다. 터무니없는 비난을 퍼붓기 보다는.86.134.75.242 (대화) 22:39, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
여기에 더 나아가, 다크나이트가 WP의 내용을 숙지하는 데 도움이 될 수도 있다고 생각한다.COI는 실제로 COI 편집의 의심스러운 처리에 대해 다음과 같이 말한다.
편집자가 공개되지 않은 COI를 가지고 있고 이 가이드라인을 위반하여 편집하고 있다고 생각되는 경우, 이 가이드라인을 인용하여 사용자-전도 문제 해결의 첫 단계인 편집자 토크 페이지에서 이 가이드라인을 인용하여 DR 정책에 따라 문제를 민사적으로 제기한다.코인은 문제를 일으키는 COI(예: BLP를 편집하고 있는 인정된 BLP 피험자)와 같이 문제를 일으키는 공개된 COI를 논의하는 자리이기도 하다.마찬가지로 공개된 COI로 편집 중이라면 코인에서 조언을 구할 수 있다.
CONE 토론 중에는 해당 사용자, 해당 사용자의 동기 또는 기사의 주제에 대해 폄하 발언을 하지 마십시오.COI가 있거나 COI가 문제를 일으킨다는 것을 뒷받침해야 하는 모든 공개 증거를 사용자가 편집한 형식 또는 사용자가 자신에 대해 게시한 정보로 게시하십시오.
Jforsayeth가 WP를 위반했더라도:COI 가이드라인(최소한의 경우, 해당 편집 당시 가이드라인이 말한 내용과 WP:BLP는 항상 비소싱되거나 제대로 소싱되지 않은 콘텐츠를 제거하는 것에 대해 말해왔다), 이것은 다크나이트의 행동을 어떤 식으로도 정당화하지 못하며, 그는 9년 된 '지침 위반'이 학문에 관한 단조로운 기사를 서투른 부정행위로 바꾸는 것을 정당화한다고 결정한 것으로 보인다.분명히 DarkNight는 위키피디아를 편집한 사람들이 WP에 좀 더 친숙해지기를 기대한다.다크나이트보다 COI 가이드라인은 86.134.75.242 (토크) 22:31, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]로 나타난다.
나는 당신이 WP를 멈출 것을 확실히 기대한다.블러지닝WP 시도:특히 WP가 있을 때, 제재 게임 토론:SPI는 우리가 말한대로 당신에게 접수되고 있다.네 말을 했으니 이제 네가 할 수 있는 최선은 칩을 떨어뜨리는 거야.당신의 행동은 Twitbookspacetube, 또 다른 사용자, 그리고 ANI 토론에서 이것을 하는 것으로 알려진 금지된 트롤의 행동을 반영하기 시작하고 있다.다크나이트2149 22:41, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

다크나이트2149는 이제 합법적인 토론을 숨기려고 시도하고, 또 더 이상 근거 없는 인신공격(즉, 어떤 증거도 없이 금지된 사용자와 '트롤'이라는 비난)을 함으로써, 이전에 나를 '재스퍼'라고 비난했던 후에 문제를 확대시키기로 선택했다.DN은 실제로 재스퍼 빈이 트윗북스파세튜브라고 제안하고 있는가?)[45] 나는 제재가 필요하다고 제안해야 할 것이다.나는 DN이 다음 내용을 읽을 수 있는 시간을 주기 위해 일주일간의 블록을 제안하고 싶다.COI 및 WP:BLP는 실제로 말하는데, DN과 같은 시기로 인해 차단된 관리자가 해당 정책을 이해할 수 있을 때까지 살아있는 사람과 관련된 모든 콘텐츠에 대한 주제를 금지한다.86.134.75.242 (대화) 22:59, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

  • 다크나이트2149, 모자쓰기는 관리인에게 맡겨두는 게 좋을 것 같다.아이피, 잠깐 얘기 좀 그만해.난 당신들 모두가 최소한 이 불쌍한 행정관이 관심을 가질 만하다고 느낄 때까지 말을 멈추길 바란다.드레이미스 (토크) 23:04, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
당연하지, 하지만 나는 DN이 임의로 게시물을 이동시킴으로써 이 실을 따라가기 더 어렵게 만들지 않았으면 좋겠어.[46] 내가 어떤 것에 대한 응답을 올릴 때, 나는 어떤 것에 대한 응답을 나중에 읽는 사람들이 페이지 역사를 거슬러 올라갈 필요 없이 내가 응답하고 있는 것을 볼 수 있다는 전적으로 합리적인 기대에서 그렇게 한다. 86.134.75.242 (대화) 23:18, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
N.B. 위의 '86.134.75.242로부터의 보복' 부제목은 DN으로부터의 불신의 추가 증거다.그리고 내가 무엇 때문에 '재조정'하고 있다고 생각하는지에 대한 설명이 없는 것을 보면 다소 어처구니없다. 86.134.75.242 (대화) 06:21, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
읽기: "날 그만 불러!"관리자가 86.134.75.243에서 응답으로 변경하려는 경우, 내 게스트가 되십시오.당신의 의도는 대낮처럼 분명하고, 특히 당신의 SPI(사실 당신이 Jforsayeth라는 어떤 의심도 지운 SPI에서의 "방어" 이후, 모든 사람들이 그것을 볼 수 있다.부탁 하나 들어주고 봉을 내려줘그러지 말고 점점 더 의심스러운 표정을 짓고 있어다크나이트2149 06:43, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
편집증은 증거가 아니다.86.134.75.242 (대화) 07:01, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
아니, 하지만 SPI에서 당신에게 불리한 입증된 증거의 단락은 확실하다.계속해서 채찍질하고 개인적인 행동을 함으로써, 나는 당신이 이 행동을 멈출 의도가 없다고 생각하는가?다크나이트2149 07:48, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

Sockpuppet 조사

@JForsayeth : IP주소를 이용해 신분을 숨겼다는 의심을 받고 지금 조사를 받고 있다.

@86.134.75.242: 당신은 Jforsayeth의 양말 인형/고기 인형 또는 Twitbookspacetube의 양말 인형이라는 의심을 받고 있다.당신은 지금 조사를 받고 있다.나는 처음에 네가 트위트북스페이스튜브라고 생각한 적이 없어, 나는 단지 너의 행동이 트위트북스페이스튜브의 혼란을 모방하기 시작했다고 말했을 뿐이야.이에 대한 당신의 과격한 반응을 보고 나서야 나는 그렇지 않다고 의심하기 시작했다.

@2003:D6:2729:FF8D:19DA:2C8:FA93:649C: 당신은 Jforsayeth의 양말 인형/고기 인형이라는 혐의를 받고 있으며, 현재 조사를 받고 있다.

WP에 대해 에게 말하고 싶은 사람이 있다면:BLP에 대한 우려와 내가 실제로 그것을 볼 것으로 예상하는 경우, 내 토크 페이지로 연락하십시오.이 페이지는 엉망진창이고 나는 그것을 저글링하지 않는다.@거스 서밋:나는 네가 메시지를 남긴 것을 보았고, 나는 곧 너에게 읽고 답장할 거야.다크나이트2149 03:41, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

Jforsayeth SPI는 재미있는 읽을거리를 만든다.흥미롭다는 것은, 즉 넌지시만 따지는 것에 근거한 산포총의 '수사'가 어떻게 생겼는지 보고 싶다면, 증거가 전혀 없다는 것이다.내가 이미 위에서 말한 바와 같이(이 논의의 일부에 DN이 완전히 부적절한 모자이크를 한 것을 볼 때, 몇몇은 보지 못했을 수도 있다) 나는 다크나이트 계정이 등록된 것보다 더 오랫동안 위키피디아를 편집해 왔다.그러나 나는 비교적 자주 바뀌는 동적 IP를 내 ISP가 선택했을 때 편집하고 있다.나는 물론 계정을 등록할 수 있었지만(과거에 계정을 가지고 있었지만, 비밀번호가 없기 때문에 더 이상 접속할 수 없다) 어떠한 위키백과 정책이나 가이드라인에서도 나에게 의무적인 것은 아무것도 없다.그리고 그러한 정책이 존재하지 않는 한, 나는 여기서 논평할 권리를 가진다.IP로서.위키피디아에 등록된 기고자들은 너무 많은 사람들이 그들의 '클럽'의 회원이 아닌 사람을 열등한 존재로 취급한다.이것은 '누구나 편집할 수 있는 백과사전'이라고 여겨지는 이 책의 미등록 기고자들에게는 충분히 나쁘지만, 쓰레기 같은 '생물학'의 주제가 될 만큼 불행한 사람들에게는 더 나쁜 것이다. 쓰레기 같은 '생물학'이 쓰레기 매립지에서의 부정성과 트라이비아로 이용된다.Jforsayeth가 Jasper Rine인지는 모르겠지만, 그 기사에 게재된 쓰레기들을 감안할 때, 나는 그들이 어떤 경우에든 그것을 제거하는 것을 전적으로 지지할 것이다.WP는 정책이라고 생각한다.위키미디어 재단은 '인간의 존엄성''인내성, 친절성, 존경심을 가지고 우리 프로젝트에서 어떻게 묘사되는지에 대한 불만이 있는 사람은 누구나 치료하는 것'을 프로젝트 전체, 특히 인명 자료의 핵심 가치로 생각한다는 점을 분명히 하고 있으며, 그 진실한 이해관계를 가진 사람이라면 누구나 그러기를 바란다.그 프로젝트도 똑같이 할 것이다.[47] 86.134.75.242 (대화) 06:36, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
이런 비난은 그만둘 필요가 있다.당신이 하고 있는 일은 질투를 하고 사람들이 당신에게 하는 말을 이해하기를 거부하는 것이다.양말 고발을 빼지 않으면 제재를 받을 수 있다.어니씨(대화) 06:49, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

다크나이트가 내게 이 일을 그만둘 준비가 되어 있다고 말했고, 다른 사람들도 그렇게 해야 한다.이의가 없다면, 이것은 곧 보관될 수 있고, 우리 모두 앞으로 나아갈 수 있다.WilyD 08:32, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

자, 지역사회가 BLP에 대한 확신으로 할 수 있는 일들의 목록은 이제 "BLP에 대한 지식과 고수"에서 "BLP에 대한 지식과 고수"로 세 배가 되었다./SPI의 목적을 이해/SPI의 목적을 이해/Spokpuppupetry에 대한 확실한 비난은 [[WP:ASPERON 질식"; 하지만 괜찮다고 생각한다면, 나는 논쟁하지 않을 것이다.———SerialNumber54129 17:26, 2019년 10월 18일(UTC)[응답]


위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자:시드 무함마드 타하 자이디

사이드 무함마드 타하 자이디(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자·블록 로그)경고에도 불구하고 Mus'ab ibn al-Zubayr의 소스 컨텐츠 제거.[48] 다섯 번.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 19:30, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

이것은 바닐라 편집 전쟁으로 보여지고 ANI가 정말로 필요로 하는 것은 아니다.C.Fred (대화) 20:08, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
WP:3RR 위반일 수 있는가?

Talk에서 IP에 의한 미개하고 파괴적인 행동:싱가포르

얼마 전에 싱가포르에 대해 몇 가지 편집을 했어, Talk:이 IP를 접한 싱가포르.그들은 나에게 정말 적대적인 태도로 행동한다.여기 몇 가지 예가 있다.

  • 1,2,3 - 지속적인 비난 톤 및 AGF 거부
  • 1,2 - GA 검토 페이지에서도 악성 콘텐츠 편집에 대한 고발또 다른 편집자도 IP가 톤(링크)을 바꾸도록 설득하려 했다.
  • 나는 토론이 생산적이지 못한 부분을 닫았다. 4일 후 그들은 거의 텍스트 벽이라고 주장하면서 나를 되돌렸다. 단면을 닫을 필요가 없다. 나는 텍스트 벽에 대해 언급한 적이 없다.내가 그들을 되돌려서 내 코멘트를 리팩터링하지 말고 새로운 섹션에 올려달라고 했을 때, 그들은 리팩터링이 아닌 '넌센스'를 주장하며 다시 워레이드를 편집했다. 나는 너의 부문을 가까이에서 반대한다. 그리고 편집자는 그의 모호한 오해의 편집에 대해 실제로 토론 페이지에 참여하지 않고 자신을 정당화하려고 시도하고 있다.
  • 1 - 미끼/응답 제공 시도참고로 IP를 설득할 수 있었을지도 모르는 다른 편집자들도 대응하기를 원했기 때문에 나는 대응을 피했다.

이 행동은 정말 파괴적이고 위키피디아와 같은 협력 프로젝트에 도움이 되지 않는다.기사를 실제로 개선하는 것에서부터 이 보고서를 포맷하고 준비하는 것까지 시간이 걸린다.나는 이것이 블록을 보증하기에 충분한지 확신할 수 없다.그러한 경우 관리자가 IP에게 일부 지침, 특히 예의범절에 관한 지침을 읽도록 설득할 수 있을 것이다.아니면 편집자들이 토론을 감시할 수 있다면 그것도 도움이 될 것이다.--DreamLinker (대화) 19:37, 2019년 10월 16일 (UTC)[응답]

스타터의 경우 2주 동안 두 번째 IP 블록-Ymblanter(토크) 19:46, 2019년 10월 16일(UTC)[응답]의 기간에 맞는 세 번째 IP를 차단했다.
임블란터, 도와줘서 고마워.지금은 이 정도면 충분할 것 같아.IP가 다시 나타나 파괴적인 행동을 계속하면 다시 알려줄게.--DreamLinker (토크) 03:51, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

눈에 띄지 않는 음악가의 이론을 홍보하기 위해 스팸메일을 장기간 연결

  • 24.246.26.168 (토크 · 기여)은 2년 이상 이안 링의 웹사이트에 여러 기사에 링크를 추가했다.WP와 많이 닮았다.COI. 한 움큼 되돌려서 책임 IP에 주의를 주었지만, 편집 내역에 대해 더 많은 관심을 가져주면 고맙겠으며, 반전을 요청하고 있다.고마워, 2601:188:180:B8E0:6C57:2675:7756:B1CF (토크) 04:31, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 블랙리스트에 사이트를 추가해 달라고 요청했으니까, 여기를 참조하십시오.블랙매인 (대화)04:55, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

더블린 장르 전사, 복수 IP

더블린 출신의 누군가가 음악 기사와의 장기적 장르 싸움에 관여하고 있다.보통은 이매진 드래곤즈, 콜드플레이, 트레인 등과 같은 팝 록 공연에 초점을 맞춘다.하루 동안 IP를 사용한 후 다른 IP로 이동하는 것이 일반적인 동작이다.아래에 관련 IP 목록을 첨부했다.를 들어 95.83.249.8과 같은 이들 중 몇 개는 차단되었다.과도한 부수적 손상 없이 대부분의 IP를 정지시킬 수 있는 레인지 블록이 있는가?Binksternet (대화) 17:45, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]


IP에 대한 나의 아주 기본적인 지식과 몇몇 구글링에 따르면, 95.83.253.240/32 범위는 가장 오래된 것을 제외한 모든 것을 포함할 것으로 보인다.a /32 레인지에 담보가 얼마나 있는지 잘 모르겠다. -미친(채널 2) 17:59, 2019년 10월 17일(UTC)[응답]
미친 청년, 어, /32는 정확히 하나의 IP :)이다.WHOIS는 .249와 .253 주소가 별도의 서브넷에 있으며(.249는 /22, .253은 /23), ISP의 전체 블록은 95.83.248.0/21이라고 말한다.지금 너무 깊이 들여다볼 수는 없지만, 만약 이것들이 밖에 더 있을 경우를 대비해서 전체 /21을 확인해 보는 것을 추천하고 싶다..249와 .253에 불과하다면 95.83.249.0/24와 95.83.253.0/24를 차단해 부수적인 피해를 피할 것을 권하고 싶다.creffpublica creffett franchise (사장님과 대화) 18:06, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
아, 그리고 3월 입장(95.152.62.198)은 러시아에 있어 (다른 사람들은 모두 아일랜드에 있다) 관계없는, 대리/VPN, 혹은 누군가가 여행하고 있다.creffpublic a creffett franchise (사장님과 대화) 2019년 10월 17일 18시 8분 (UTC)[응답]
아이고, 미안."기본지식" 측면을 보여주는 것 같아. :) -미친 청년 (채널 2) 18:10, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[답글]
크레펫의 말에 동의하라. /24를 막는 것은 괜찮지만, 당신이 고려해야 할 가장 넓은 것은 /24라는 것에 동의하라.Special:의 편집 내용을 살펴보십시오.기부금/95.83.249.0/24. 그리고 당신은 이 반달의 작품을 대부분 보게 될 것이다.에드존스턴 (대화) 2019년 10월 17일 18:11 (UTC)[응답]
95.83.249.0/24 및 95.83.253.0/24 범위가 차단됨.
베레안 헌터(토크) 13:26, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

경고에도 불구하고 사용자에 의한 잘못된 신뢰 편집

عمر__بن__لوممم여기와 같은 다른 편집자들의 밀림에도 불구하고 꾸준히 위키백과에서 불신임으로 편집하고 있다.와 같은 편집은 문제가 있고, 지속적이며, 이유가 있어서 자꾸 되돌아가게 된다.더욱이, 이와 같은 코멘트는 위키피디아에 그의 의도를 분명히 한다[55]. --셈수르쉬 (대화) 11:30, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

흥미롭군세브르 조약에 의해 제안된 쿠르디스탄의 공식적이고 소스화된 지도를 추가하는 것은 어떻게 문제가 있는가? 아니면 어떻게 나쁜 믿음인가?당신은 당신의 매우 편향된 POV에 어긋나는 모든 것을 나쁜 믿음으로 묘사할 수 있다.웬일인지 시리아에서 쿠르드족 문제를 다룬 기사들 중 상당수는 단순히 심각한 중립성 문제를 안고 있으며, 현상 유지를 위해 노력하는 일부 사용자들은 중립적인 소스를 추가하려는 시도를 막고 있다.그들은 신뢰성에 문제가 있는, 의심스러운 출처의 지도와 정보를 사용할 것을 주장한다.나는 RSN에 대한 논제를 시작했다.중립성 논의에 대한 자세한 내용은 로자바로자바에 대한 대화 페이지를 참조하십시오.고마워, Amr ibn Kulthoumعوووووووو ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ((토크) 14:21, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
수년간 편집자들이 이런 종류의 편집을 끝내라고 하면, 이제는 그만둘 때가 되었다.[56] 그리고 쿠르드족 선전과 싸우기 위해 페이지를 통째로 제거하는 것은 앞으로 나아가는 길이 아니다. --셈수르흐 (대화) 15:42, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

이것은 내용상의 논쟁일 수 있다.WP:분해 결의안 107.77.203.224 (대화) 19:15, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답하라]

중단 IP

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

IP 블록을 사용자:88.18.117.104에 적합하다고 생각함.여러 번의 경고에도 불구하고 대부분 텔레토비 관련 편집만 했다.
알리바르디 (대화) 20:52, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

반물질적 발언?

Re: Tatzref[57][58] 논평:타츠레프는 유대인들이 홀로코스트에 대한 온라인 논쟁을 '지배'하려고 하고 있으며, 위키백과를 다시 쓰는 비밀스러운 이스라엘 카발(cabal)이 있다고 제안한다.이것은 전형적인 반제 트로피인데, 그가 그것을 뒷받침하기 위해 제시하는 유일한 증거는 음모를 좋아하는 색소폰 연주자와 의심 많은 온라인 잡지의 한 묶음이다.그는 또 두 명의 금지된 편집자가 "누군가의 급여를 받고 있다"는 증거도 없이 신나치 웹사이트에서 조작을 했다는 사실을 암시하고 있다.

실의 배경은 KL 바르샤바 음모론[59]과 과거 PA가 아이스위즈K.e.커프만을 상대로 한 주요 신문의 작품이다.[60] 전체 주제 영역은 소싱 제한 하에 있다.[61]

댓글?프랑수아 로브르 (대화) 13:49, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 사용자의 외출 시도에 대해 외설했고, 그것 또한 다시 삭제했다.El_C 16:56, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

과하고 무관한 연결, 심지어 단어의 음절까지.

전에도 이 문제를 제기한 적이 있다.API 아카이브 링크를 찾을 수 없지만, 여기서 논의가 진행되었어.

IP 에디터(하나밖에 없을 것 같은데)는 아직 하고 있다.하루 이상 사용하는 IP는 거의 없는 것 같다.그들은 (조사 없이) 좋은 첨가물이 될 수 있는 편집물을 다음과 같은 쓰레기와 섞는다.

  • 240F:CA:EA:1:E0D6:5DBA:BD26:D676 - 2019년 10월 14일 - diff
    • 데보 호호야 -> [안게르 드보] [[프리즌 로]][【감시 a】[[수갑 r]][[신체적 구속 o][죄수 y][죄수경 A]]
    • 가바트 카바바치 -> [히포포타무스 가바][[덤벨 tt ka][Dumbbell tt Ka][[부파게과바바][[세이프 cci]]
  • 240F:CA:EA:1:F036:6C7D:E8A3:A47E - 2019년 8월 29일 - diff
    • 기사 [[해적 아르슬레반] -> [오즈마 기사 공주] [해적 아르스]][[스테이크 le]][[일본 도자기 및 도자기 운반차]
  • 27.81.2.164 - 2019년 10월 4일(2019년 7월 31일부터 활성화) diff]
    • [[아마노자쿠] -> [아마노자쿠 아마][[흑인 노지]][무스룸아쿠]
    • 요고스타인 -> [프랑켄슈타인 요고][프랑켄슈타인 요고][정치인 스타인]
  • 240F:CA:EA:1:598D:9505:B451:2243 - 2019년 9월 1일 - diff
    • [[Angel Hielahiela] -> [Angel Hiee][[얼음 라히][[스노우엘라]
  • 2400:2652:481:CB00:B8C3:AAEC:8E25:1B8 - 2019년 5월 31일 - diff
    • 카쿠레 다이쇼군 -> [몽키 카][【크레인(새)쿠】[[늑대 레 다이][[곰돌이 쇼]][토드건]

나는 더 많은 예를 들 수 있었다; 나는 단지 나의 편집 이력을 2019년 8월 31일까지 검색했고, 특징적인 편집 요약이 있는 편집 이력을 선택했다.

이러한 종류의 WP:중단 편집은 찾고 복구하기가 매우 어려울 수 있다.사용자:에 의해 링크가 걸린 경우에만 표시됨:DPL 봇링크와 함께 Dissambigation 페이지에 보고됨.마지막 편집인 경우, 되돌리는 것은 쉽지만, 그렇지 않은 경우, 수리가 마지막 좋은 버전을 찾고 손으로 복사/붙여넣기 위해 편집 이력을 다시 조사해야 할 수 있다.나는 다른 편집자들의 부분적인 수리를 선의로 시도한 것을 보아왔기 때문에 내 시간만 낭비되는 것은 아니다.얼마나 많은 비슷한 것들이 발견되지 않은 채로 남아 있는지 알 수 없다.

내가 이 게시물을 조사하는 데 2시간 중 가장 많은 시간이 걸렸다; 나는 좀 더 분명히 유용한 일을 하고 있었을 것이다.이런 종류의 허튼 소리를 멈추게 할 방법이 없을까, 아니면 적어도 빨리 탐지하고 되돌릴 방법이 없을까?나르키 블러트 (대화) 12시 42분, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

@Narky Blert: WP에서 추천할만한 직책:EF/R. 적어도 이것들을 플래그할 수 있는 필터를 쓸 수 있을 것 같아.성공률이 편집 전체를 불허하기에 충분할지는 모르겠지만, 그러한 편집들을 기록/태그할 가치가 있다. 월튼 (토크) 12:44, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
@Samwalton9:조언해 주셔서 고마워요.위키피디아에 공지글을 올렸는데:필터/요청/아카이브_14#관련되지 않은 연결, 심지어 단어의 음절까지 편집하십시오.나르키 블러트 (대화) 12시 49분, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
이중 사각형 대괄호가 그 사이에 공간이 없이 앞뒤로 앉아 있는 경우가 그리 많지는 않다. 그것을 감지하기 위해 쓰여진 무언가가 수익성이 있어야 한다.상술한 대괄호 등의 예시 하중을 빠뜨리지 않는 한?——SerialNumber54129 12:47, 2019년 10월 21일(UTC)[응답]
그것은 사실이야 - 나는 그것을 완전히 배제한 것이 아니라, 그것은 분명히 가능하다. 월튼 (대화) 12시 48분, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
]][][에 대한 탐색은 훌륭한 생각처럼 들린다.반달리즘이 아니더라도 실수하지 않을 사건은 생각나지 않는다.나르키 블러트 (대화) 12시 53분, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]
를 들어, "애플의 핵심 제품군아이폰 스마트폰, 아이패드 태블릿 컴퓨터, 아이팟 휴대용 미디어 플레이어 입니다.애플의 역사에서.]][[ 사이트:en.wikipedia.org -wikidata]에 대한 구글 검색은 더 많은 것을 보여준다(그것이 제외되지는 않지만), [, 그래서 당신은 그것들을 찾기 위해 이리저리 파야 한다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 14:45, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
사실, 아니, 애플의 예에는 공백이 있지만, 일부(이상하지만 받아들일 수 있는가?)가 있다.이미지 배치에 사용된 상하이에서의 예시들보잉! 제베디(토크) 14:53, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]
소수가 적은 한 필터는 아마 여전히 이로운 것이 될 것이다.결국 면제가 추가될 수 있다.———SerialNumber54129 14:56, 2019년 10월 21일(UTC)[응답]
네, 동의하셨습니다.그리고 더 자세히 검색해 보면, 내가 우려했던 것보다 덜 흔한 것 같다 - 상하이의 예가 구글 결과의 처음 3페이지에서 유일하게 유효한 검색 히트를 친 것이다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 14:59, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
우리의 자원 검색은 때때로 구글보다 나을 수 있다.나는 단지 노력했을 뿐이다.hastemplate:"infobox person" insource:/]]\[\[/검사로 {{infobox 사람}이(가) 포함된 글에서 ]][[정규 표현을 사용할 때는 검색 범위를 제한해야 한다.나쁜 소식은 1,145개의 결과를 발견했다는 것이다. 비록 처음 몇 페이지를 살펴본 결과 대부분이 그 결과물들이다.[[File: ... ]][[유형. 봇을 운영하는 누군가는 아마도 이러한 유형을 제외한 결과의 덤프를 제공하기 위해 사용자 정의 검색 루틴을 망칠 수 있을 것이다. --RexxS (토크) 01:13, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

이상한 CU 포스팅이요?

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

만약 아직 처리되지 않았다면 누군가는 이것을 조사해야 할 것이다.글리논409 (대화) 22:23, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

됐어, 성가신 LTA들 중 하나더 이상 볼 것이 없다. -- 즈즈즈즈 22:47, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

WP의 시선:AIV 부탁해

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

WP를 볼 수 있을까?AIV 제발, 그리고 특히 반달 에디터 User:85.255.233.48. 그들과 나는 게리 라인커의 슈퍼스타 축구에서 서로의 편집 내용을 되돌리는데 지난 20분을 소비했으므로.고마워, 닉 모예스 (대화) 22:06, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

이제 El C에 의해 해결됨.고마워, 닉 모예스 (대화) 22:11, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

네오플란 라이더 스튜디오

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

네오플란 라이더 스튜디오(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자·블록 로그)는 다음과 같은 WP를 가지고 있는 것 같다.CIR/WP:NOTHER 문제그들의 편집은 대체로 백과사전의 범위를 훨씬 뛰어넘는 미인증 팬크루프트의 대규모 추가다.그들은 여러 번 되돌린 후에 같은 편집을 한다; 사용자 토크 페이지 메시지는 무시되었다.거의 모든 편집은 동일한 편집 요약을 사용하는데, 이는 해당 효과에 대한 특정 경고에도 불구하고 편집 요약을 정확하게 설명하지 않는다.경고에도 불구하고 이 사이트에서 많은 편집이 복사된 것으로 보이며, 이 웹 사이트에는 호환되는 라이센스가 없다.궁극적으로, 그들의 기여 중 어떤 것도 실제로 도움이 되거나 유용하지 않다.참고: 반복적인 카피비오 업로드 때문에 이 사용자를 Commons에서 차단한 적이 있다.Pi.1415926535 (대화) 20:17, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

여러 가지 이유로 외설되었다.블록 공지 참조. -Ad Orientem (대화) 20:38, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

Autodesk Maya에 대한 71.244.246.185 외

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

안녕, 나는 위키를 순찰하고 있었는데, 나는 (처음에는) 편집 전쟁으로 보이는 것을 알아차렸다.그러나 anon 94.1.34.5(토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)는 비소싱 자료로 보이는 것을 제거하고 있었고, 또 다른 anon 71.244.246.185(토크 · 기여 · 로그 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)는 94의 편집 내용을 계속 되돌리고 있었다.처음에는 편집 전쟁 게시판에 하나(또는 둘 다)를 보고해야겠다고 생각했지만, 편집 전에 71.244.246.185가 샌드박스(로그인된 사용자 2명에 의해 되돌림)를 파괴하고 있다는 것을 알게 되었다.누가 이것 좀 보고 처리해 줄래?사쿠라 카트렛Talk 19:37, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

보고해줘서 고마워.한 블럭만 주면 받아줄게.하지만 그들이 설명도 없이 다시 내 뒤를 돌아봤다는 걸 알겠다.내가 다시 되돌리면 현시점에서 분명히 3반전 규정을 어겼을 것이므로 그렇게 해서는 안 될 것 같다.하지만 제발 그들이 여기 잘못 있다고 말해줘.내가 제거한 자료는 차단된 사용자 45.20.151.16에 의해 추가되었고, 그것은 비소싱이었다.포함하면 안 되는 거 맞지?그리고 내가 편집한 요약본에서 71.244.246.185는 전혀 듣지 않고 계속 "반복적인 반달리즘"을 반복한다고 분명히 밝혔음에도 불구하고 --94.1.34.5 (대화) 19:48, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
이 IP는 선의라고 가정하지 않았다.이 사용자 역시 편집 요약 안에서 나를 욕하고 있었다. 71.244.246.185 (대화) 19:55, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 선의라고 생각하는 건 아니겠지?또 틀렸어.나는 그저, 위키피디아에 출처 없이 자료가 추가되어서는 안 되기 때문에, 비소싱 자료를 삭제하는 것이다.게다가, 당신은 이 비협조적인 내용을 계속 추가함으로써 선의로 행동하지도 않고, 왜 그것이 포함되어야 하는지에 대해 결코 설명하지 않음으로써 나를 무시하지도 않고 있다.그래서 (실제로 욕은 안 했지만) 네가 정말 귀찮게 굴기 때문에 네가 말하는 대로 내가 "욕했다"는 이유야.벌써 내 질문에 대답해.-94.1.34.5 (토크) 20:02, 2019년 10월 20 (UTC) 회신[응답]
미안하지만, 나는 너에게 더 이상 답장하지 않을 거야.우리는 관리자들이 여기서 최종 전화를 하게 할 것이다.본 사이트 WP:faith71.244.246.185 (대화) 20:04, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]의 규칙을 읽지 않은 것이 분명함
위키피디아에 관한 규칙도 읽어보지 않으셨군요.소식통을 인용해.그리고 나는 위키피디아에 관한 규칙들을 실제로 읽었다.선의로 가정하되 중요한 것은 분명히 선의로 행동하지 않고 있다는 것(이미 이유를 설명했는데), 그래서 나는 선의로 가정하지 않는 것이다.그리고 여기서의 당신의 답변은 당신이 내 질문에 대답할 수 없기 때문에 내가 옳다는 것을 알고 있다는 것을 분명히 보여준다. --94.1.34.5 (대화) 20:12, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
출처를 없앤 다음엔 없는 것처럼 행동해WP:지금 게임을 하고 있는 중.무슨 일이 일어날지는 당신이 이 사이트에서 자신을 차단할 것이다.나도 똑같이 할 수 있다.하지만 30초 안에 새로운 IP를 얻을 수 있지만, 너에 대해서는 잘 모르겠어.그러니까 계속 해.그냥 구멍을 더 깊게 파고 있는 당신의 모습. 71.244.246.185 (대화) 20:16, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
내가 제거한 출처는 어디야?여기 편집본이야거기엔 내가 삭제한 출처가 없어!제공된 출처에 포함되어 있지 않은 기존의 영화 목록에 차단된 사용자가 추가한 영화 3편을 삭제했고, 차단된 사용자가 어떠한 출처도 없이 추가한 게임도 4개였다.Softimage 3D는 후속 Autodesk Softimage로 연결되는 링크가 이미 있으므로 필요하지 않다고 생각한다.원천이 전혀 없어너 여기서 산책하고 있는 게 틀림없어.차단당하면 새로운 IP를 얻을 수 있다는 걸 인정하게 되어 반갑다. 왜냐하면 그들은 당신의 새로운 IP를 차단할 것이기 때문이다.그들의 구멍을 더 깊게 파고 있는 유일한 사람은 당신이다. --94.1.34.5 (대화) 20:27, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
원본을 제거했군관리자(administrator)가 첫 번째 편집을 살펴보도록 주의하십시오.는 출처를 없애고 거기에 t가 있는 처럼 행동하려고 했다.
맙소사, 더 이상 무슨 말을 해야 할지 모르겠어.이미 내 편집에 연결했다(Autodesk Maya에 대한 첫 번째 편집인 경우), 거기에 제거된 원본이 없다!!!당신과 함께 벽돌담에 머리를 부딪치고 있으니 꼭 관리자들이 빨리 나타나길 바란다. --94.1.34.5 (토크) 20:35, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
그럼 나한테 대답하지 말고 기다려.이것은 단지 그 사건을 더하는 것이다.네 행동은 여기서 통제할 수 없다.WP:cool 71.244.246.185 (토크) 20:38, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
네가 거짓 정보를 주는 것을 멈추는 즉시 나는 응답을 멈출 거야!내가 반역자가 아니고 옳은 일을 하고 있을 때 난 가만히 앉아서 반역자라는 비난을 받지는 않을 거야.또, 눈치채셨는지 모르겠지만, 사쿠라 카틀렛은 신고만 하셨어요.그리고 그건 당신이 잘못했기 때문이지. --94.1.34.5 (대화) 20:46, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
우리 이름 두 개 다 읽을 줄 모르나 봐.너는 이제 그 곳을 넘어섰구나.관리자들은 이 사용자가 현재 주제를 벗어났다고 생각하지 마십시오. 71.244.246.185 (대화) 20:48, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
넌 분명히 읽을 줄 모르는 사람이야.본 섹션의 제목은 "Autodesk Maya에 관한 71.244.246.185 등"이다.그 IP는 너의 것이다.이어 "애논 94.1.34.5(대화 · 기여 · 로그 삭제 · 필터 로그 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)는 비소싱 자료로 보이는 것을 제거하고 있었고, 또 다른 애논 71.244.246.185(대화 · 기여 · 로그 삭제 · 로그 삭제 · 필터 로그 · 블록 사용자 · 블록 로그)는 94개 편집사항을 계속 되돌리고 있었다"고 밝혔다.편집 전쟁 알림 게시판에 하나(또는 둘 다)를 보고했지만 편집 전 71.244.246.185도 샌드박스에 지장을 주고 있다는 것을 알게 되었다."내 IP가 그들의 메세지에도 있다는 사실은 중요하지 않다. 그들이 단지 당신만을 보고하고 있다는 것은 더 이상 명백하다.이건 정말 말도 안 돼, 위키백과에 있으면 안 돼. --94.1.34.5 (대화) 20:57, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
94.1.34.5, 더 이상 사람들을 바보라고 부르지 말라.차단 회피로 인해 페이지 보호 및 차단 71.244.246.185.ST47 (대화) 21:32, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
정말 미안해, 내가 거기까지 손을 쓸 수 없었어.하지만 이런 상황을 해결해줘서 고마워. --94.1.34.5 (대화) 21:35, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

라이트 쇼의 주제 금지 위반

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2017년 8월, 사용자 라이트 쇼(토크 · 기여 · 카운트)위키백과당 전기 관련 편집이 무기한 금지되었다.관리자 게시판/IncidentArchive962#라이트 쇼의 IDHT 동작.그는 이미 그의 토크 페이지 쇼에서 논평으로 금지령을 어긴 것 때문에 여러 번 차단되었다.나는 그가 가장 최근에 다시 그렇게 하는 것을 발견했다.나는 이것이 일주일 전에 일어났고 반달리즘을 되돌리고 있었다는 것을 알지만, 그는 분명히 부과된 제한에 대해 신경쓰지 않고 기본적으로 차단되기를 요구하고 있다.그가 금지령을 노골적으로 무시한 것을 감안할 때 그를 무기한 차단하는 것에 대한 반대는 없을까?SNUGUGUMS (대화/편집) 16:20, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

Snuggums, 내 눈에는 BANEX가 허가한 명백한 반달리즘을 내가 놓친 게 아니라면 되돌리는 것 같아.bradv🍁 16:27, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇다 그것은 반달리즘적인 회귀였다. 그것은 분명히 내가 이전 토론에서 생각했던 것이 아니었다. (아마도 그의 과거 페이지에서의 방해 때문이었다.)는 그가 그의 금지령을 어필하는 것 외에 이 일당 전기와 관련된 어떠한 편집도 할 수 없다는 것을 이해한다.만약 내가 그 제한이 무엇을 수반하는지 잘못 알고 있다면, 나는 사과한다.SNUGUGUMS (대화/편집) 16:32, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
(충돌 편집)사용자 대화 편집은 WP:BANEX "명백한 반달리즘(예: 페이지 내용이 외설로 대체되는 것 등) 또는 생활인의 전기 관련 정책의 명백한 위반"을 포함한 특정 편집에 특히 탁월하다. 핵심 단어는 "불확실한" 즉, 합리적인 사람이 동의하지 않을없는 경우"이다.BANEX는 또한 편집자가 편집 요약에서 탁월하다고 주장해야 하지만 편집자가 그렇게 해야 한다고 명시하지는 않는다... - TomThomas.W talk 16:52, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
BANEX를 통해 다시 읽으면서, 나는 단지 "별도로 언급되지 않는 한, 기사, 페이지, 주제 또는 상호 작용 금지는 다음의 비트에 적용되지 않는다"는 것을 알게 되었고, 그것은 "명백한 공공 기물 파괴 행위 재발견" 등으로 이어지게 되었다. 그래서 나는 단지 그 금지를 가지고 무엇을 할 수 있고 할 수 없는지를 오해했다.미안하다.우리는 이제 아무런 조치 없이 문을 닫을 수 있다.SNUGUGUMS (대화/편집) 16:59, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
(EC) 만약 그것이 공동체 주제 금지였고 나는 그것이 공동체의 지원(또는 DS 주제 금지) 이외에 확장될 수 있다고 보지 않으며 어떤 공동체 토론에서 BANEX를 제외하자는 제안도 없었다고 믿는다.나는 라이트쇼가 AN과 BANEX에서 다루지 않는 다른 곳에서 전기와 관련된 것에 대해 불평하고 있었다는 것을 믿으며, 그들이 모든 전기들을 피할 필요가 있다는 것을 그들에게 이해시키고 금지법을 시험하는 것은 좋은 생각이 아니었다고 믿는다.나는 보통 경계선 테스트에 대해 완강히 반대하지만, 이것은 명백한 공공 기물 파손에 충분히 가깝다고 생각한다.이와는 별도로 나는 라이트쇼가 어떻게 이런 사실을 알게 되었는지 궁금했다. 그러한 금지를 받은 몇몇 사람들은 RC 순찰 중 어떤 전기도 무시해야 하고 그들을 감시 목록에서 삭제해야 하기 때문이다.두 가지 모두 위반은 아니지만, 쉽게 위반으로 이어질 수 있기 때문에, 금지에 대해 심각한 누군가가 그러한 간단한 단계를 따르지 않는 것은 어리석은 일이다.하지만 Lightshow는 상당히 활동적이지 않기 때문에 그들은 단지 기사를 보고 문제를 알아차렸을 가능성이 크다.닐 아인(토크) 17:04, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
  • WP의 첫 번째 탄환에 위반 없음:BANEX. 그는 TBANNED 때 예외로부터 특별히 반박받지 않았으므로, 허용된다(표현은 일반적인 TBAN 표현이다).극도로 엄격한 독서는 BANEX에서 마지막 선을 긋고, 그에게 예외를 실제로 사용하는 것을 언급하도록 요구할 수도 있지만, 최근에 나온 다른 제한적인 금지 사례들과 마찬가지로, 나는 해를 끼치지 않고 반칙을 하지 않는 확고한 신봉자다.코백베어(토크) 16:49, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나도 여기서 위반을 본 게 아니야. 그들은 BANEX가 허용한 공공 기물 파손 행위를 분명히 되돌리고 있었어.Davey2010Talk 16:55, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자의 업무 중단 동작:테에단JT

이것은 St Francis Xavier's College, Hamilton에서 편집 전쟁으로 시작되었는데, 이 사용자는 편집 요약, 토크 페이지 및 기사의 토크 페이지에 여러 가지 설명에도 불구하고 의심스럽고 참조되지 않은 정보를 추가하려고 시도하고 있다. 이 정보는 논쟁의 여지가 있기 때문에 출처가 필요하기 때문이다.그러나, 이 사용자는 이제 자신의 뜻대로 되지 않기 때문에 이름을 부르며 자살하라고 말하게 되었다. [62].나는 그 편집이 영구적으로 삭제되었다면 감사했을 것이다.단기 금지도 순서라고 생각한다.데미안 린네(토크)

무한정 차단됨.나는 그것이 수정사항 삭제에 적합하지 않다고 생각한다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 04:10, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]

WP:Monique Dupree 관련 NOTHERE

모니크 듀프리라고 주장하는 유저는 모니크 듀프리 기사를 편집하고 정책 위반 기사를 정리하려는 유저의 시도를 되돌리는 것 외에는 아무 것도 하지 않고 있다.분명히 WP:여기 말고.핑잉 @Hullaballo Wolfowitz: 기사를 닦은 사용자.ミラP 18:33, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

누군가 시간을 내서 사용자의 토크페이지에서 사이트가 어떻게 작동하는지 설명했으면 좋겠어.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 18:59, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
@NinjaRobotPirate:COI 가이드라인으로 안내했지만 WP:NOTHERER 우려는 사용자가 주제가 된다고 주장하는 기사 외에 사용자가 편집한 곳이 없기 때문에 제기되었다.ミラP 19:12, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
누군가의 토크 페이지에 템플릿을 게시하는 것은 그들과 대화하는 것을 대신하는 것이 아니다.좋아, 좋아. 아무도 안 할 거면 내가 할게.닌자로봇피리테 (대화) 19:18, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]
미라클핀이 여러 번 편집했어야 할 내용인데 IMHO는 행정 개입이 필요 없어 종결돼야 한다.Davey2010Talk 19:20, 2019년 10월 19일(UTC)[응답]

사용자:나타나나치

나타나치(토크 · 기여)유대교와 성리학에서 장기간의 편집 전쟁을 벌이고 있다.7월 22일, 그는 그 기사에 많은 양의 텍스트를 추가했는데, 나는 그 후 편집 요약 "1"과 함께 그것을 삭제했다.독창적인 연구 2. 이 편집의 일부는 아주 형편없이 포맷되었다. 3.이 편집자에게 토크페이지에서 도움을 청하라고 권하고 싶소."편집자가 토론에 참여하지 않고 5번이나 텍스트를 복원한 이후부터.나는 사용자들의 토크 페이지에 경고문을 올려, 그가 그 토크 페이지에서 추구하는 합의에 참여해야 한다는 것을 설명하려고 노력했지만 소용이 없었다.또한 이 편집자는 위키피디아에 관한 다른 어떤 기사도 편집하지 않았다는 것도 유념해야 한다.[65] 조언 부탁한다.디브레서 (대화) 14:41, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]

나는 가 이 편집에서 그 사용자를 다시 양말이라고 부른 것을 알아차렸다.이것에 대한 증거가 있는가?그 외에는, 이것은 해당 사용자가 토론 없이 그들의 추가사항을 위한 느린 편집 전쟁을 방해하는 명백한 사례로 보인다.캔터베리 테일 토크 14:55, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나도 두어 번 되돌렸지만, 그들은 그저 전쟁을 맹목적으로 편집하고 요약과 경고 편집은 무시한다.다시 경고했지만 그것밖에 할 수 없다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 09:49, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • @EdJohnston:합리적인 추론(나도 그렇게 생각했는데), 두 명의 사용자는 관련이 없다.어쨌든 나는 그 블록을 지지한다.--Bb23 (토크) 18:14, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

이유 없이 이동

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 기사들 - 니르벡인디언 오드넌스 공장 니르벡을 보고, 내 토크 페이지도 좀 봐줄래?인도 오드넌스 공장 니르벡이라는 그런 이름은 없다.나는 유효한 참조를 했고 그 기사는 DYK에 관한 것이었다.나는 사용자 토크 페이지를 확인했는데 그것은 "문제적"인 것 같고 나는 편집 전쟁에 참여하는 것을 좋아하지 않는다.그러므로, 나는 관리자에게 대화할 것을 요청한다.인도 오드넌스 공장 Nirbheek에게 Nirbheek를 지시하고 사용자(Degen Earthfast)도 "정보"하십시오.고마워. --AntanO 17:47, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

는 인도 오드넌스 공장 Nirbheek의 복사 및 붙여넣기 작업을 되돌렸다. 즉, 이 기사의 유일한 버전은 Nirbheek에 있다.@Degen Earthfast: 페이지를 이동하려면 WP:RM 그리고 만약 당신이 계속 전쟁을 한다면 당신은 차단될 것이다.자이언트 스노우맨 17:53, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
오, @AntanO: ANI에 오기 전에 편집자와 의논해서 그들에게 알려야 한다.자이언트 스노우맨 17:55, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
(갈등 편집) 이전이 번복된 이후, 적절한 이동 요청이 있어야 한다.리디렉션을 통해 절단 및 붙여넣기 동작으로 교대하는 것은 부적절했다.그러나 사용자는 이 보고서가 제출되었다는 것을 통지받았어야 했는데, 그것은 실행되지 않았다.El_C 17:56, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
고마워, 주목. --AntanO 18:00, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
당신 E1_C는 단지 당신이 어떤 것에 동의하지 않는다고 해서 무엇이 적절하거나 적절하지 않은지 결정하지 못한다.디겐 어스패스트 (토크) 18:34, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
사실, 이 보고서를 검토하지 않은 관리자로서, 나는 그것을 평가하고 필요한 경우 시정 조치를 할 수 있다.El_C 18:43, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
와우. 그랜드팔라마 (토크) 19:13, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

당신이 동의하지 않더라도 WP 우선 순위에 따른 조치였는데, 해당 기사의 소유권을 주장하는 안타노와 자이언트 스노우맨 중 한 분이십니까?WP에는 기사의 소유권이 없으며, 당신의 지식이나 의견 없이 이동할 수 있다.참조 위키피디아는 민주주의디겐 어스패스트아니다 (토크) 18:24, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]

자이언트 스노우맨과 El_C가 하는 말은 사실 그렇지 않다.그들은 (a) 당신의 컷 앤 페이스트 동작이 정책을 위반했고, (b) 누군가 움직임에 동의하지 않을 때는 다시 옮기기 전에 토론을 해야 한다고 말한다.그건 그들이 무언가를 소유하려고 한 예가 아니다. --Floquenbeam (대화) 18:45, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
@Degen Earthfast: - 내 말 좀 들어줘, 엘_C와 플로켄빔. 그리고 플레즈는 엉뚱한 비난을 그만해.자이언트 스노우맨 18:47, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
WP와 연계된 조치였습니까?공통 이름?그것도 우선이다.Grbergbergs Gråa Sång (대화) 18:46, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]

제조된 물체는 일반적으로 그들의 브랜드 네임과 그들의 제품에 의해 알려져 있다. 예를 들어 무기의 경우, 콜트 파이썬, 헤클러 & 코흐 G3 ad 메스탐을 참조한다.파이썬을 찾아봐Degen Earthfast (토크) 18:59, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]

내용 분쟁 자체는 이 보고서에 속하지 않는다. 그것은 기사 토크 페이지에서 일어날 필요가 있다.El_C 19:02, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
[사용자:]라는 이름의 분쟁이다.AntanO Antan]]]O는 분명히 소유권을 주장했고 다시 말하지만 위키피디아는 민주주의위키피디아아니다.대담하다.Degen Earthfast (토크) 19:09, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
이러한 정책 페이지에 대한 링크를 통해 우리를 곤혹스럽게 하지 말고 WP:ONUS는 당신이 검토해야 할 관련 링크다.El_C 19:11, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 내 주장을 관철했다.Antano는 분명히 이 기사와 그 기사에 대한 편집, 그리고 그것을 옮기는 것을 포함하도록 한 것에 대해 이의를 제기했다.디겐 어스패스트 (토크) 19:17, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
WP의 이 수준:IDHT는 잠시 후 답답해진다.상상 속의 "소유" 문제에 대해 반복적으로 불평하는 수동적 공격도 그렇다.그 페이지는 옮기기 위한 합의가 있을 때까지 현재의 이름으로 유지될 것이다.이러한 합의는 WP를 통해 얻어야 한다.RM. 다른 것은 모두 건전하고 격분하여 아무 의미도 없다. --플로퀸밤(토크) 19:22, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
분명히 '소유' 문제가 있기 때문에 공정한 행정관이 되지 않고 도와주지 않은 것에 대해 '수동적 공격적 징징거림'은 없다.디겐 어스패스트 (토크) 20:19, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답하라]
나는 소유권 문제를 보지 않는다.데겐 어스패스트의 과감한 움직임과 안타노의 복귀가 보여WP의 다음 단계:BRD 과정은 논의될 것이지만, Degen Earthfast가 Talk에서 이 움직임에 대한 논의를 어디서 시작했는지 모르겠다.니르벡.C.Fred (대화) 20:27, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
논의되지 않은 행보를 되돌리고 토론을 요구하는 것은 '소유'가 아니다.다른 사용자에게 계속 문의하라고 하는 정책을 읽어 보십시오.그랜드팔라마 (대화) 13:58, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
잘라내기와 붙여넣기 운동이 단순히 정책을 위반하는 것이 아니라 잠재적으로 저작권을 침해한다는 것을 기억할 필요가 있을 것이다.우리의 기여자들이 무료 콘텐츠 라이선스를 선택했다고 해서 그들의 저작권이 존중되어서는 안 된다는 것을 의미하지는 않으며, 따라서 우리는 그들이 그들의 콘텐츠에 대해 라이선스를 부여한 조건을 우리가 확실히 준수하도록 해야 한다.닐 아인(토크) 19:42, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2019년 터키군의 시리아 북동부 공세에 대해 다른 재량권 제재 요청

안녕하십니까, 2019년 시리아 북동부로의 터키 공세시리아 내전과 이슬람국가 이라크 레반트와 관련된 모든 페이지에 로그인사용자를 되돌릴 24시간 제한에 1회 되돌리기로 한 제한이라는 커뮤니티 제재를 받고 있다.나는 편집자들이 진행중인 전투에 관한 기사에 실시간 업데이트를 추가할 때 그러한 제재는 해롭다고 말하고 싶다.추가는 단지 1RR을 압도한다.그 증거로 슬레이터스트는 우리는 대화 페이지에 생방송 뉴스가 아니라고까지 언급했는데, 에코그래프는 지난 7년 동안 시리아전 공격이나 전투 지속된 영토나 사상자의 포획에 대해 당신이 말한 것처럼 생방송 업데이트를 제공했다고 답변했다. 우리는 또한 이전 두 번의 터키군의 시리아 공격 때도 같은 행동을 했다. 그래서 지금도 그렇게 하지 않을 이유가 없다.나는 우리가 논란이 되고 있는 자료의 복구에 필요한 다른 제재, 아마도 3RR과 합의점이 필요하다고 생각한다.starship.paint (talk) 00:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]

@El C, ST47, 레이네2: 위에 코멘트한 사람. starship.paint (토크) 05:25, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]
또 빨간 글씨로 안 돼. 내 불쌍한!그나저나, 새로운 제재가 그 대신 어떤 DS로 적용될 것으로 예상하셨나요?가장 적절한 제한은 현행 SCW 일반 제재에 해당될 것으로 보인다.나는 대신에 1RR을 제거하고 필요한 합의를 적용하는 것에 반대하지 않는다.El_C 05:46, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
텍스트 색상 변경에 감사(데자뷰!El_C 05:55, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
네, 터키/SDF가 참가하고 있기 때문에 시리아 내전에 해당되는 것 같은데...starship.paint (talk) 06:00, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답하라]
엄밀히 말하면, 나는 어떻게 수정해야 할지조차 잘 모르겠어. {{Editnotice SCW 1RR}}.대체될 수 있을 것 같아...(?) El_C 06:33, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
어쨌든 GS를 적용한 ST47이 체중이 실릴 때까지 미루고 싶다.El_C 06:42, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
비록 내가 일반적으로 경찰에게 1RR보다 더 많은 "게이밍"을 허용하고 있다고 생각하지만, 필요한 합의는 괜찮다.그러나, 이것은 관리자가 주어진 물품에 제재를 가할 수 있는 AE 재량적 제재와는 다르다.SCW/ISIL 1RR은 ARBPIA 1RR과 마찬가지로 자동이며, 이를 변경하기 위해서는 합의가 필요하다.그래, 편집통지서와 대화공지 템플릿을 업데이트해서 이걸 지원해야 해. 전에는 그런 적이 없었던 것 같거든.ST47 (대화) 06:46, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
필자가 "합의가 필요하다"는 것은 방해가 될 수 있다는 데 동의하는 바지만, 아무리 사소한 것이든 일시적인 것이든 터키 언론의 모든 발표를 즉각적으로 게재하는 경향에 대처할 수 있는 유일한 방법이라고 생각한다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 08:50, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

그리고 "그러나 우리는 최신 뉴스로 업데이트해야 한다, 모두 구식이다"의 최근 시리즈는 1RRR을 무의미하게 만든다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 14:33, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]

음, 어떤 이의도 없었고 슬레이터스븐의 요점이 보였으므로, 우리는 현재 사건에 대한 실시간 업데이트로 인해 표준 1RR 제한이 지나치게 해로운 2019년 시리아 북동부에 대한 터키 공세와 관련된 기사에 대해, 관리자가 일시적으로 1R 제한을 표준 계약으로 대체할 수 있다.엔서스 필수 조항. 1RR 조항은 해당 기사가 더 이상 빈번한 업데이트를 받지 못하게 되면 다시 복구되어야 한다.@El C:, @Slattersteven:, @Starship.paint:, 모든 사람에게 합당한 소리로 들리는가?템플릿 업데이트에 대해 알아보겠다.ST47 (대화) 20:47, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
좋아.El_C 21:00, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
이의 없음. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 나는 반대한다.이것은 정확히 WP 아래 1RR가 필요한 종류의 기사다.GS/SCW&ISIL 정권.편집자 간 갈등의 가능성이 높고, 분쟁에서 관련 당사자들 간의 정보 전쟁 속에서 생산된 라이브 업데이트는 신뢰할 수 없을 것 같다.위키피디아는 뉴스 웹사이트가 아니다.우선순위는 WP:VWP:NPOV, 그리고 이러한 것들은 특히 그러한 논란이 많은 주제에 대해 더 느린 편집 속도에 의해 도움을 받는다.편집자들은 편집에 대한 의견 일치를 얻는다면 여전히 1RR 체제 하에서 기사를 갱신할 수 있을 것이다.지금까지 SCW&ISIL 기사 중 1RR에 대한 예외를 요구하는 기사가 하나도 없다면, 왜 이 기사가 되어야 하는가?RGlucester — 인터뷰 21:11, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
    @RGlucester:, 문제는 일부 편집자들이 다른 편집자들이 중립적이거나 신뢰할 수 없다고 반대하는 소스를 사용하여 실시간 업데이트를 제공하는 것으로 보인다. 1RR은 각각의 개별 편집자들이 다른 사실을 업데이트하기 위해 다른 소스를 사용하기 때문에 그 정보를 삽입하는 편집자들의 속도를 늦추지 않고 있다.그러나, 이러한 일은 하루에 여러 번 기사의 여러 섹션에 걸쳐 발생하기 때문에, 편집자들이 POV/신뢰할 수 없는 정보를 기사에 포함시키지 않는 실질적인 방법은 없다. 그들은 하루에 한 번 되돌리는 것을 빨리 지우기 때문이다.간단히 말해서, 1RR의 기본 상태는 각각의 새로운 편집(이 편집이 삽입되고 매일 1회 되돌리기를 원하지 않거나, 삽입, 되돌리고, 되돌리기를 원하지 않음)과 Consensus Required, 논란이 되는 편집의 기본 상태는 합의 없이 포함되지 않는 것이 아니다.ST47 (대화) 21:22, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
WP에 따르면 이 문제에 대한 분명한 해결책이 있다.GS/SCW&ISIL.새 계정 또는 IP가 많은 경우 해당 문서를 반비례하십시오.기존 편집자일 경우 중립적이거나 신뢰할 수 없는 내용을 반복적으로 삽입하는 사람에 대해서는 주제발표를 금지한다.NPOV/신뢰성에 문제가 있을 때 제한을 완화하지 말고 기존 제재를 적용하십시오!RGlucester — 인터뷰 21:45, 2019년 10월 13일 (UTC)[응답]
@RGlucester: - 터키에 관한 기사에서 터키어 출처를 사용하는 편집자들을 금지시키는 주제를 다룰 것인가?그냥 물어보는 것. starship.paint (talk) 00:12, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답하라]
나는 그러한 행동에 반대한다, 정말로 해야 할 일은 wp:not news를 집행하는 것이다.한 가지 방법은 사용자당 하루에 한 번 편집한다고 말하는 것이다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 09:13, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
ST47은 편집자들이 신뢰할 수 없거나 중립적이지 않은 소스를 반복적으로 삽입하고 있다고 말했다.만약 그렇다면, 그렇다, 그것들은 금지되어야 한다.만약 그들이 이것을 하지 않는다면, 그들의 편집은 문제가 되지 않으며, 이 논의에는 전혀 이유가 없으며, 확실히 1RR을 들어올릴 이유도 없다.제재를 가하는 관리자들이 이러한 편집이 문제인지 아닌지에 대한 결정을 내리고 만약 그렇다면, 그러한 편집이 이루어지는 것을 막아야 한다.위키피디아에 적합하지 않은 내용으로 기사가 채워지는 동안 그들은 그저 냉담하고 중립적인 척만 할 수는 없다.RGlucester 인터뷰 09:18, 2019년 10월 14일 (UTC)[응답]
말하기는 쉬워도 행하기는 어렵다.이 글은 따라가기가 극히 어렵다.El_C 12:12, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
그렇기 때문에 "합의 없이 편집하지 말라"거나 "하루에 1번 편집하라"가 유일한 방법이 될 수 있다.무엇이 반전이냐, 무엇이 새로운 수치냐, 그리고 POV의 주장은 무엇이냐를 알기 어렵다.인포박스는 몇 일 동안 그 주장을 했던 바로 그 쪽에 의해 현재 계약되어 있는 주장을 해왔다.wp:notnews.Slatersteven (대화) 12:29, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]을 실시해야 한다.
  • 1RR의 제거에 반대한다.그 기사는 현재 잘 되고 있으며, 1RR이 그 이유 중 하나이다.사실 1RR을 가지고도 앞뒤로 회전이 많이 일어나는데, 그것이 없으면 얼마나 회전이 일어날지 상상이 안 된다.사상자를 갱신하는 것에 관해서, 관리자들은 지금까지 그것에 대해 누구에게도 경고하거나 차단하지 않았으므로, 나는 1RR가 콘텐츠 제거에만 적용된다고 생각한다.내가 믿는 바로는 그것은 확실히 남아 있어야 한다.카심메이지아 (대화) 13:27, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • @KasimMejia: 그럼에도 불구하고 오늘 일찍부터 회상이 다해서 나를 계속 핑해 주었잖아!El_C 18:28, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 그렇긴 하지만, 1RR이 실제로 페이지를 편집 전쟁에 돌입하지 못하게 한 10개의 예를 나열할 수 있다.많은 사용자들이 이 페이지에서 논의되지 않은 동작을 하거나 되돌리는 경향이 있는데, 1RR이 여러 번 일어나는 것을 막았을 것이다.KasimMejia (대화) 18:57, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 그렇구나. 설명해줘서 고마워.El_C 18:59, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 1RR 지지대 제거.그것은 편집에 해롭고 우리는 항상 논란이 많은 추가물에 대한 의견 일치를 볼 수 있다.Nice4What (토크 · 기여) – (감사절 공유 share) 14:35, 2019년 10월 17일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 1RR 지지대 제거.그것은 득보다 실이 많고 페이지 참여를 강하게 저해한다.[66], [67], [68], [69], [70], [71]과 같은 통지를 받고자 하는 사람은 누구인가?나의 가장 좋은 소망 (대화) 2019년 10월 18일 19:16 (UTC)[응답]
  • 반대하라 여기는 중복되는 문제가 있는 것 같다.
1. WP:NOTNEWS 이슈는 편집자들이 놓칠 수 있는 오류/편향성/신뢰할 수 없는/불완전한 출처 또는 추가되는 콘텐츠의 위험이 매우 높음에도 불구하고 시리아 전쟁에 대한 편집자들이 실시간 저널리즘 취재를 시도하고 있다.
2. 이상 때문에 신속한 발화 및 부적절한 편집은 되돌리기 어렵다.
이런 상황은 불행한 일이지만, 1RR 제한을 없애는 것은 현명하지 않다고 생각한다.이것은 매우 휘발성이 강하고 편집 전쟁에 미끄러질 가능성이 있는 주제여서, 1RR 규칙을 가지고 있으면 일이 궤도에서 이탈하는 것을 막을 수 있다.여기서의 목표는 1RR을 제거하는 것이 아니라 편집자들이 현재 일어나고 있는 전쟁에 대한 미세한 임베디드 전쟁 기자 스타일의 취재를 하지 못하게 하는 것이어야 한다. 107.77.203.224 (대화) 19:32, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
그러면 "공고 후 24시간 이내 편집 금지" 또는 (위의 제안대로) 사용자당 하루 1번 편집하는 것과 같은 하드 Notnews DS가 필요하다.슬레이터스티븐 (대화) 10:12, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

비르발 쿠마왓

최근 이 편집자에 대한 보도가 있었는데, 몇 달 동안 편집하지 않았기 때문에 마감되었다.그러나, 그들은 돌아왔고, 여전히 영어 문법에 대한 그들의 독특한 관점을 밀어붙이려고 노력하는 것 같다. (명령 자체가 매우 빈약함에도 불구하고) 일부 차이: [72] (IP로서), [73], [74], [75], [76]여기서 좀 더 조치를 취해야 할 때일지도 모른다.Vorbison(탄소동영상) 01:41, 2019년 10월 18일(UTC)[응답]

아, 그리고 편의상 원래 실에 링크를 넣는 걸 깜빡했네.Vorbison(탄소동영상) 02:13, 2019년 10월 18일(UTC)[응답]

31시간 차단.이 사람이 편집한 것 중 일부는 파괴적인 것에 가까운 무능력한 것이다.그러나 최근의 편집은 마치 트롤링처럼 보이기 시작했다.나는 이 편집자가 계속 이러면 아마 무기한 차단될 것이라고 의심한다.오래된 편집은 적어도 내용을 개선하려는 선의의 시도로 해석될 수 있지만, 빈칸이나 법적 위협에 대해서는 그렇게 말하기는 어렵다.닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 05:08, 2019년 10월 18일 (UTC)[응답]
그 블록이 만료되자마자 그는 곧장 미친 마을로 돌아갔다.EENG 18:53, 2019년 10월 19일 (UTC)[응답]

WP에서의 백로그:AIV

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

누군가 밀린 일, 특히 IP-호퍼가 최신 IP를 차단하는 필드하키에서의 혼란에 대처해 줄 수 있을까(특수:기여/197.159.134.201) 및 기사 보호? - 톰 토마스.W 12시 2분, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

판촉 편집

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 사용자는 오늘 세 번이나 아미티 칼리지에 홍보(아마도 저작권이 있는) 높은 콘텐츠를 추가했다.나는 두 번 돌아섰고 내가 경고하기 위해 그들의 토크 페이지에 갔을 때 나는 8개월 전에 이것에 대해 여러 번 경고를 받은 것을 보았다.그때 멈춰 섰지만 행동은 재개됐다.MB 03:30, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

저작권 위반이 포함된 편집이 여러 번 추가되어 외설됨.El_C 05:53, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

WP에 대한 Dean Orbong 실패:참여

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

이 사용자 계정은 약 7개월 전에 만들어졌고 그 이후로는 문제될 것이 없었다.그들의 토크 페이지에서 볼 수 있듯이, 그것은 경고로 가득 차 있는데, 이 모든 경고들은 대답하지 않고 계속 같은 방식으로 편집되었다.편집 이력을 바탕으로 나는 이것이 케브519의 양말이라고 99.99% 확신하지만, 사건을 열 충분한 증거가 없다. - 갈라츠 גאלץשיחה Talk 20 20:13, 2019년 10월 23일 (UTC)[응답]

그들의 편집 중 일부는 건설적인 것처럼 보이지만, 참여하지 못한 것은 걱정이다.그들은 어떤 경고에도 (토크 페이지나 그들 자신의 페이지에서) 반응하거나 행동을 바꾼 적이 없다.솔직히 말하면 양말이라도 상관없어. 38.142.216.106 (대화) 20:39, 2019년 10월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

77.126.226 다시

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

77.198.226.226의 임시 블록이 만료되었다.하지만 그들은 이전의 행동을 재개했다.기사의 정보를 파괴하고 명백히 잘못된 정보로 대체한다.- C.Syde (토크 기여) 06:42, 2019년 10월 23일 (UTC)[응답]

일주일 동안 막혔어.다시 시작되면 IP를 WP에 보고할 수 있다.AIV. 닌자로봇피리테 (토크) 08:05, 2019년 10월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

2A02:C7에 대한 레인지 블록 고려 사항F:7E20:C400:/64

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

사용자들은 다양한 미디어 페이지에 다소 지장을 주었고 위키피디아를 이해하지 못하는 것 같다.예: [77]사용자도 이전 블록[78]을 가지고 있다.그들이 경고를 심각하게 받아들이지 않는 것 같아서 ([79]) WP는 다음과 같이 생각한다.DE 또는 WP:CIR 블록이 보증될 수 있다.에버그린피르 (대화) 20:31, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

TurokSwe는 Alian, Predator, AVP 페이지에서 같은 행동을 계속하고 있다.

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

TurokSweAlian vs Predator 관련 페이지에서 그의 논쟁적인 행동을 계속하고 있다.그가 ANI에 끌려간 것은 이번이 세 번째, 올해 초, 만약 그들이 다시 전쟁을 편집한다면, 그가 끈질기게 차단될 것이라고 결정되는 것은 이번이 처음이며, 두 번째로 그가 두어 달 동안 금지될 것이라고 결정되었다.이제 그 주제 금지가 끝났으니, 그는 다시 예전처럼 하기 시작했다.그 중 하나는 이미 템플릿에 와르드를 편집한 것이다.내가 포기하기 전까지 에일리언(프랜치즈)은 그가 타임라인 오브 에일리언, 프레데터, 에일리언에일리언 대 에일리언이라는 페이지를 만들었다. 프레데터 유니버스(Fredator Universe)는 AFD에 공지가 불가능하고 1차 출처에 의존하며 저작권 침해로 가득 차서 AFD에 상정된 것으로, 저작권 문제로 인해 빠른 속도로 삭제되었고, 그 후 그가 다시 저작권 문제를 만들었는데, 이번에는 이보다 훨씬 짧았다.이 AFD 동안 그는 이전에 그를 금지시켰던 바로 그 문제들을 보여준다. 돌담이나 다른 사람들이 말하는 것을 이해하는 것을 거부하는 것과 같은 말이다.특히 한 끔찍한 순간 동안 그는 왜 그가 정확히 금지된 주제인지조차 모른다고 말했는데, 이것은 내가 그가 더 나아질 수 없을 것이며 지속적이고도 금지된 주제여야 한다고 믿게 한다.【트렉커(토크)】03:03, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]

네가 문제가 있는 내가 정확히 무슨 일을 저질렀는지 설명해줘.에일리언 템플릿 페이지에서 당신이 언급하는 편집은 논의되고 있었지만 당신은 응답하지 않았다, 그건 내 잘못이 아니다.외계인, 프레데터, 외계인외계인의 시간표 프레데터 우주 기사는 저작권이 있는 명백한 자료 없이 재탄생되었고 나는 그 문제가 무엇이어야 하는지 모르겠다.당신은 올해 초부터 나의 이전 문제를 상기시켜주는 나에 대한 애드호미넴 주장을 꾸준히 사용해왔고, 문제의 두 페이지 중 어느 쪽이든 문명적이고 합리적인 토론에 참여하기를 거부하면서 쓰레기가 나를 설득했다.애초에 내가 정확히 금지된 주제였던 이유를 잘 알지 못하는 이유는 (1) 원래의 추리가 불분명하고 혼란스러웠으며 불합리하게 인식되었기 때문이며 (2) 그 당시의 사건들을 정확히 기억할 수 없기 때문이다. - 투록스웨 (대화) 03:18, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
당신이 이해하지 못하는 것에 근거하여 당신의 행동을 용서하는 것은 매우 빠르게 늙어가고 있다.영화 시리즈에일리언 대 에일리언의 개봉과 함께 프레데터 영화와 교차해서 상영되었다. 프레데터(2004)와 후속작 에이리언 vs. 프레데터: 레퀴엠(2007) 에일리언 vs. 프레데터 프랜차이즈프레데터 시리즈의 후속편이자 '에일리언 시리즈' 전편 역할을 하고 있다.어떤 믿을만한 소식통도 당신의 팬 이론을 뒷받침하지 못했다.타임라인 페이지는 서로 무시하고 모순되는 세 개의 연속성을 잘못 병합한 부조화, 엉터리, 그리고 독창적인 연구의 난장판이었고, 당신은 AfD가 닫히기 전에 그것을 재현했다.여러분이 올해 초 금지된 주제를 정확히 하고 있다고 말하는 것은 트렉커의 애드호미넨이 아니다. 왜냐하면 여러분이 그것을 절대적으로 계속하고 있기 때문이다 - 비록 여러분이 그 시절이 오래 뒤에 있다고 말하더라도 말이다.에이리언, 프레데터, AVP가 동의어라는 당신의 관점을 제시하기 위해 페이지를 즉시 다시 편집하는 것과 마찬가지로, AfD의 대상인 페이지를 즉시 재생성하는 것은 동료 편집자들에 대한 믿음의 부족을 보여주었다.DårthBøTTø (TC) 04:06, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
내가 잘못했다고 생각되는 것을 이해하지 못하면 어쩔 수 없다(진짜 내가 잘못한 것이 있다면 말이다.네가 내가 "모든 것"을 내가 차단되기 전의 상태로 되돌리기 시작했다고 말했을 때, 그리고 그것은 잔인하게 잘못된 것으로 우연히 발견되었고 나는 어떤 것을 되돌렸는지 기억할 수 없다.나는 이 물건들을 고치고 개선하는 것에만 신경을 써 왔다.나는 또한 너의 인용문이 어디서 따온 것인지, 무엇이 문제인지 모르겠다.무슨 "팬 이론"을 말하는 거야?나는 어떤 팬 이론을 제안한 적이 없다.당신은 타임라인 페이지가 아마도 세 개의 다른 타임라인으로 구성되어 있고 상당한 모순으로 가득 차 있지만, 당신은 어떤 증거나 설명으로 이러한 주장을 지지하기를 거부하는 반면에, 공유 타임라인에 대한 증거는 풍부하고 누구에게나 명백하며 신뢰할 수 있는 출처가 제공되어 왔다.그 기사는 계속 간과되거나 평가절하되고 있다.나는 왜 AfD가 페이지를 재생성하기 전에 닫아야만 했는지 이해할 수 없고 나는 그런 어떤 규칙도 알지 못했으며, 또한 이것이 어떻게 동료 편집자들에게 "신뢰의 결여"를 증명했는지 또는 그것이 무엇을 의미하는지 이해할 수 없다.트렉커는 자신이 당면한 주제에 대해 문명적이고 이성적인 방식으로 토론하는 대신 항상 내가 문제고 (설명 없이) 뭔가 잘못된 것이 있다고 주장하는데 의지할 때 애드호미넴 논쟁에 대해 스스로 유죄를 선고한다.에일리언, 프레데터, 에일리언 대 에일리언의 관점 프레데터는 상호연결된 프랜차이즈로, 모든 개념과 목적이 동일한 허구의 우주에서 일어나는 것은 단순한 객관적 관찰과 폭스 대표의 모든 가용 매체와 관점으로 판단되는 피할 수 없는 논리적 추론에 지나지 않지만, 다시 말하지만, 나는 오퍼타티오에 명백한 반 AVP-bias가 있는 것 같다는 것을 깨닫고 있다.n 여기서 (이별된 우주에 대해 이상한 선호를 갖고 있는 일부 팬들에게는 큰 이슈가 되는 경향이 있다.) - 투록스웨 (토크) 05:35, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
여러분과의 이 모든 계속되는 문제들 동안, 수십 명의 다른 편집자들은 이미 여러분이 무엇을 잘못하고 있는지에 대해 계속해서 설명해 왔다.당신은 우리가 동의하는 방식으로 설명하기를 꽤 요구하고 있는데, 그것은 불가능을 넘어서는 것이다. 왜냐하면 당신은 당신이 잘못한 것을 결코 받아들이지 않을 것이고 심지어 고려조차 하지 않을 것이기 때문이다. 그래서 기본적으로 당신은 우리가 하는 단 한 번의 대답으로도 결코 행복하지 않을 것이다. 그래서 당신의 모든 논평은 모든 사람들에게 시간과 공간을 낭비하는 것이다.어느 누구도 당신이 받아들일 수 있는 방식으로 당신에게 답장을 할 수 없을 것이다. 당신은 단지 당신이 잘못했다고 동의한 모든 편집자와 관리자가 틀렸다고 계속 암시할 것이다. 이것은 매우 위키백과다.NOTHER HERE MOVERSE 이동.★ 트렉커 (대화) 05:45, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 단지 한 두 명의 사람들이 나에 대해 불평하는 것을 알아차렸을 뿐이지만, 그 누구도 그 문제가 실제로 무엇이 되어야 하는지를 적절하고 명확하게 전달하지 못했다.넌 계속 내가 "그냥 틀렸다"고 주장할 수 있지만, 내가 왜 틀렸는지, 그리고 실제로 뭐가 문제인지 제대로 설명하기를 거부하는 한, 너는 나를 더 이상 현명하게 내버려 둘 수 없을 것이고, 나는 이것을 아주 무례하게 생각할 것이고, 나는 분명히 너를 그렇게 대할 생각을 하지 않을 것이다.나는 당신이 단지 문명적이고 합리적인 토론을 하고 더 긍정적인 분위기에 기여하고 그들의 일과 함께 사람들을 성장시키는데 도움을 줄 수 있을 때 왜 그런 폄하적이고 적대적인 접근을 선택하는지 모르겠다.내가 잘못한 줄 알았던 것을 이해한다는 점에서 나는 기꺼이 잘못을 시인할 용의가 있고, 여기서 나를 향해 보인 행동에 완전히 어안이 벙벙하다.내가 보기에 위키피디아는 다음과 같다.NOTHERE (그리고 나는 내가 이 일에 대해 유죄로 만들었다고 생각되는 것이 이 경우에서 당신이 하고 있는 일에 훨씬 더 적용가능하며, 확실히 당신이 나를 쫓고 있다는 의미에서 파괴적이라는 꼬리표를 달고 당신의 마음 속에 반드시 가지고 있는 나에 대한 적대적 이미지를 바탕으로 끊임없이 나에게 행동하고 있다는 것을 증명한다.드가 누구에게도 그리 건강할 수는 없다(당신과 나 둘 다 포함). - 투록스위(대화) 06:48, 2019년 10월 21일(UTC)[응답]
그는 "한 두 명의 사람들이 나에 대해 불만을 토로하는 것을 알아챘을 뿐 실제로 문제가 무엇인지 적절하고 명확하게 전달할 수 있는 사람은 없었다"고 말했다.당신 진심인가요?재미로 토픽이 금지된 것 같아?【트렉커(토크)】07:00, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
올해 초 얼마나 많은 사람들이 ANI에 참여했는지, 그들의 입장이 무엇이었는지, 어떻게 모든 것이 전환되었는지는 기억하지 못하며, 나는 여기서 현재 ANI와 현재 상황을 언급하고 있었다.여기 있는 누구에게도 전혀 도움이 되지 않는 만큼 다른 사람도 고마워할 것이 분명하니 그 태도를 취해주면 고맙겠다. - 투록스위(토크) 07:04, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
위의 ANI에 대한 명확한 링크가 있으니 언제든지 기억을 되살리십시오.다시 한 번 묻겠는데, 왜 당신이 잘못했다고 생각한다면 금지되었는가?관리자들이 네 마음에 편견을 가지고 있니?【트렉커(토크)】07:27, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
지금 얼버무려보면, 비교적 심한 편집 전쟁으로 인해 금지된 것 같지만, 그럼에도 불구하고, 현재의 ANI와 관련하여 어떻게 지금 그런 죄를 지었는지 모르겠다. - 투록스위 (대화) 07:37, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 그 6개월 동안 투록스웨를 토픽 금지시킨 관리자였다.TurokSwe가 10월 4일에 돌아와 Alian/Predator 기사를 다시 편집하기 시작했을 때, 그들이 한 첫 번째 일은 같은 것, Template에 대한 편집-워링을 시작하는 것이었습니다.애초에 그들이 토픽 금지된 이유의 일부인 '외계인'(프랜치즈)이었다.만약 내가 그 당시 편집된 것들을 봤다면, 투록스웨는 지금 무기한 차단되었을 것이다.나는 또한 그들이 여전히 "나는 내가 무엇을 잘못했는지 모른다"와 위키피디아에 대한 끝없는 회신을 올리고 있다는 것을 주목한다.에일리언, 프레데터, 에일리언 대 에일리언의 삭제/시간 표시 프레데터 우주는 솔직히 말도 안 된다.편집자의 시간에 이런 지속적 시간이 줄어들 수는 없기 때문에 여기서 뭔가 분명히 일어나야 할 필요가 있는데, 무기한 주제 금지가 출발점이 되는 것 같다.블랙 카이트 (토크) 09:51, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 무기한 토픽 금지령을 따를 것이다. 이것은 가 그 영역을 들어본 적이 없는 것이다.피쉬+카레이트 09:58, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 설명된 대로 무기한 주제 금지 또는 WP에 따라 무기한 블록을 지원한다.IDHTWP:NOTHERE. --Yamla (대화) 11:26, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 지난 7년 동안 10번 이상 그들에게 설명했음에도 불구하고, 그들은 여전히 위키피디아가 어떻게 작동하는지 확실히 이해하지 못하기 때문에, 무한 블록을 지원한다. 이곳과 스웨덴 WP에서 모두, 그리고 그들이 "WP-career"를 시작했음에도 불구하고, 편집 전쟁으로 인해 여러 번 차단되었고, 그들이 신뢰할 수 있는 서비스를 제공해야 한다는 것을 받아들이지 않았다.편집의 출처, Alien 시리즈의 영화부터 암호화된 동물학까지...) - 톰 토마스.W 12:39, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
여기서 논의한 결과 이것이 WP의 경우라는 것은 더욱 명백하다.CIR, 그리고 그 무기한 차단만이 그들의 끝없는 다른 편집자들의 시간 낭비를 막을 수 있는 유일한 방법이다. - 톰 토마스.W 17:19, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]
  • 무기한 주제 금지 지원.위에 링크된 두 개의 기록 보관소를 읽었을 때 이 사용자는 자신의 행동이 왜 문제가 되었는지 이해하지 못하며 실제로 멈출 의도가 없다는 것은 명백하다.두 개의 나사산 및 연결된 WP에서:AFD 논의는 왜 자신의 편집이 비판받고 있는지 이해할 수 없다며 최소한 지난 몇 달 동안 반복적으로 설명했던 것들을 설명하지 못했다고 주장한다.내게는 그것이 역량 문제(그는 진정으로 다른 편집자들이 말하는 것을 이해할 수 없고, 협업 기반 프로젝트에서는 가능하지 않다)나 건방진 편집 문제(그는 자신의 행동을 바꿀 필요가 없도록 이해하지 못하는 척하고 있다)를 가리킨다.어느 쪽이든 편집자 시간과 편집자 자원을 고갈시키는 것이기 때문에 나는 이 일을 최종적인 방법으로 마무리해야 할 때라고 생각한다.시간제한적인 주제 금지는 단지 우리가 다시 이곳으로 돌아온다는 것을 의미하기 때문에, 무기한 금지는, 그가 그것을 해제하기 위해서는, 그가 이해한다는 것을 보여주어야 할 것이고, 앞으로 나아가고 있는 규칙을 준수할 것이라는 것을 보여주어야 할 것이다. 107.77.203.215 (대화) 13:05, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 무기한 주제 금지에 실패하는 무기한 블록을 지지.두 가지 이유가 있는데, 첫째는 "BRD"의 끈질긴 편집 전쟁과 "D" 부분을 이해하지 못하는 것과 둘째는 문제가 무엇인지 이해하기 위한 무능/거절이다.내게 마지막 지푸라기라도 걸었을 때, 그들이 무엇을 잘못했는지 묻고, 이전 토론에서 분명히 지적받았을 때, 그들은 "지금 그것을 넘어가는 것"과 같은 표현을 사용한다. 그들은 심지어 이해하려고 애쓰는 것조차 별로 관심이 없는 것 같다. (그것, 그리고 그들이 전쟁을 편집했다고 생각하지 않는다는 사실)이 때, 이 실의 첫 번째 글에서 그것이 설명되었을 때, 이번에는 링을 돌려라.)이러한 이슈들은 주제와 관련이 없고 일반적인 행동 패턴이다 – TurokSwe가 2013년에 편집 전쟁으로 무기한 차단되었다가 2014년에 ROP 논리로 차단된 것을 보면, 현 시점에서 무기한 차단하는 것은 정말 지나치지 않아 보인다. --bonadea 기여 토크 14:07, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 지원 무기한 차단: 제호크만이 2019년 1월 4일에 썼듯이, [80] "문제가 다른 미디어/대중문화 주제로 넘어가기 때문에 주제 금지가 도움이 될 것이라고 생각하지 않는다.5~6년이 지나도 사용자가 전쟁을 편집하지 않는 것을 이해할 수 없다면, 나는 우리가 숙소를 제공할 필요가 없다고 생각한다.달리 설득되지 않는 한, 나는 방어막을 칠 작정이다.소수의 어려운 편집자들이 대다수의 평화로운 편집자들을 위해 편집을 비참하게 만들 수는 없다."투록스웨 주장은 "나에 대해 불만을 토로하는 한두 사람 정도밖에 알아채지 못했다"[81]는 마지막 지푸라기라도 잡는다고 분명히 말하는데, 이는 그의 행동을 멈추게 할 수 있다. --Guy Macon (토크) 14:37, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 규칙을 따랐고 에일리언 템플릿 페이지에 있는 세 개의 되돌리기 규칙을 초과하지 않았고 나의 마지막 행동은 Trekker가 처음에 응답했지만 결국 보류된 토크 페이지에 대한 토론을 시작하는 것이었다.내가 여기서 뭘 잘못했나? - 투록스위 (대화) 15:02, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답하라]
애초에 금지된 것과 똑같은 것들을 강요하려고 했었잖아.너한테 말하는 것은 벽에 대고 말하는 것과 같기 때문에 다시 답장하지 않았어. 솔직히 그건 시간 낭비야. 어차피 조만간 무기한 금지될 거라고 확신했으니까 그냥 기다리는 게 좋을 거야.【트렉커(토크)】15:07, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
나는 아무것도 "강제하게" 하려고 하지 않았고, 단지 문제의 편집을 주장했을 뿐이며, (1) 3회 되돌리기 한도를 초과하지 않고 (2) 문명화된 토론을 개시함으로써 비교적 합리적인 방법으로 접근했다고 믿는다.나는 토크 페이지에서 나의 주장이 비교적 타당하다고 생각했고 어떻게 그것이 "벽과 대화"로 이해되었는지 알 수 없다고 생각했고 나는 당신이 설득력 있는 반론을 하지 않았기 때문에 토론을 그만둔 것이 아닌가 의심스럽다.나는 여전히 내가 무엇을 했기에 금지된 것이 정당화될 수 있을지 확신할 수 없고 지금까지 아무도 나에게 그것을 제대로 설명하지 않았다. - 투록스웨 (대화) 15:19, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
다시 말하지만, 당연히 그렇게 생각하겠지.【트렉커(talk)】15:21,2019년 10월 21일(UTC)[응답]
투록스웨는 "아무것도 강요하려 한 게 아니라 문제의 편집을 고집했을 뿐"이라고 자조적으로 들린다.둘째, Edit warring3RR과 *not* 동일하며, 이 모든 시간이 지난 후에도 여전히 당신이 이해하지 못하는 것처럼 보인다는 사실은 좋은 징조가 아니다.단지 3RR을 피하기에 충분치 않다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:25, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
어떻게 "어떤 것을 강요"하고 단지 "어떤 것을 지지"하는 것이 아마도 동등한 행동이라고 여겨지는가?어떤 것을 강요하는 것은 해롭지 않은 반면 어떤 것을 강요하는 것은 해를 끼친다.만약 3RR을 피하는 것이 충분하지 않다면, 그것은 분명히 밝혀져야 한다. 당신이 편집자들을 혼란스럽게 할 위험이 없도록 말이다. - TurokSwe (대화) 15:34, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
만약 당신이 WP를 읽기를 원한다면, 그것은 명확하고 매우 명확하다.EWWP:3RR.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:37, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
그리고 그것이 어떤 차이를 만드는 경우, 찬성하는 의견의 일치를 얻지 않고 그것을 강요하기 위해 계속해서 당신의 편집과 편집의 전쟁을 주장하는 것이 정확히 그것을 강요하는 것이 무엇을 의미하는가.보잉! 제베디(토크) 16:05, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
투록스웨, 어떤 부분이...
"3반전 룰은 편집 전쟁이 상당히 빠르게 일어나고 있는 경우에 편리한 한계지만 '편집 전쟁'의 정의는 아니며, 3반전 룰을 어기지 않고 편집 전쟁을 벌이는 것, 또는 심지어 편집 전쟁을 거의 할 수 있는 것까지도 완벽하게 가능하다"는 것이다.[82]
...이해하는 데 어려움이 있으십니까? --Guy Macon (대화) 16:32, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 투록스웨가 이 토론에서 그들의 문제적 행동에 대해 아무런 실마리도 보여주지 않고 여전히 그들에게 제대로 설명되지 않았다고 주장하는 것을 보았기 때문에 주제 금지를 지지할 것이다.만약 누군가가 반복적으로 제공되어 온 간단한 영어 설명을 이해할 수 없다면, 다른 편집자들이 해야 할 많은 반복이 있을 뿐이다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 15:29, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 편집이 지속되는 경우 무기한 주제 금지 및 차단을 지원하십시오.나는 WP를 언급하려던 참이었다.CIR의 모순이지만 보잉이 먼저 거기에 도달했다.마넷D 토크 15:31, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 무한 블록을 지지하십시오.TurokSwe에 따르면 그들은 이전의 금지 이전에 어떻게 그들의 편집이 문제적이었는지 이해하지 못했고 그들은 지금 같은 말을 하고 있다.주제 금지에서는 교육적 가치가 없다고 본다.티데롤스 16:12, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 무한정 차단됨.투록스웨는 2019년 1월 이 ANI 실에 따라 경고를 받았는데, 그 중 몇몇 관리자인 제호크만과 블랙 카이트가 변명을 고려했지만, 결국 TS가 다음에 편집-경고할 때 외설될 이라고 경고했을 뿐이다.누군가는 다음 번에 끈질긴 편집 전쟁으로 ANI에 끌려갈 때 그런 일이 일어날 것이라고 예상했을지도 모르지만, 그 때 그들은 6개월간의 주제 금지를 면했다.내가 보기에 우리는 이미 이 사용자에게 많은 양의 밧줄을 지불한 것 같고, 분명히 강력한 제재를 지지하는 위 사람들(대부분은 변명의 여지가 없는 사람들)도 내 의견에 동의한다.나는 (아, 그녀가 다시 간다) 건설적 편집자의 시간과 인내가 위키백과의 가장 소중한 자원이며, 이런 식으로 낭비되어서는 안 된다는 원칙을 외설해 왔다.24시간 실이 열리기를 기다렸다가 닫는 것보다는 나 자신의 책임으로 이 일을 하고 있는 것이다, 그것이 모든 사람의 시간을 더 낭비할 것이라고 믿기 때문이다.비쇼넨탈크 17:28, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[답답하다]
    잘 왔다.나는 단지 주제 금지를 지지할 때 2019년 1월 그 실을 읽지 않았다.그 점에서 제호크만은 "5~6년 사용자가 전쟁을 편집하지 않는 것을 이해할 없다면 숙소를 제공할 필요가 없다고 생각한다"고 잘 요약했다.보잉! 제베디(토크) 17:58, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
    데밋, 비쇼넨, 넌 이미 이걸 닫아야만 했어! 나는 엔위키에서 하루 휴가를 내고 적절히 이용할 수 있는 유일한 기회를 놓친다! 투표로 이 사이트를 궤도에서 이륙시키고 핵물질을 공급할 수 있는 유일한 방법이다.rdfox 76 (대화) 13:50, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

주제 금지 범위에 대한 질문

지난번 에일리언 / 프레데터 페이지에서 주제발표가 금지된 바 있지만, 그는 아이스 에이지(영화), 엘름 가의 악몽, 고질라, 킹콩, 아나콘다(영화), 그라보이드(수동 영화로부터) 등에 강한 관심을 보여 왔다.자신이 무엇을 잘못하고 있는지, 자신에게 예상되는 것에 대해 전혀 이해하지 못하는 모습을 보였고, 그의 행동에 반대하는 사람이 몇 명이나 되는지조차 헤아릴 수 없는 것으로 보아, 또 다른 에일리언/프레데터 주제 금지법이 효과적일지 의문이다.그 결정이 변명의 여지가 없다면, 아마도 모든 영화와 비디오에 대한 주제 금지? --Guy Macon (토크) 16:26, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC) [응답]

위의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.

데일리 콜러에서의 인신공격 및 법적 위협

다음의 논의는 종결되었다.수정하지 마십시오.이후 코멘트는 해당 토론 페이지에서 작성해야 한다.이 논의는 더 이상 수정해서는 안 된다.


페이지: 데일리 콜러 (토크 내역 링크 감시 로그 편집)
보고 중인 사용자: 레비비치 (토크 · 기여 · 삭제된 기여 · 로그 · 필터 로그 · 사용자 · 블록 로그)

자신을 언론 전문 변호사 겸 언론인 찰스 글래서라고 밝힌 IP 편집자는 데일리 콜러로부터 "사실상의 부정확성과 편향된 자료들을 정리할 수 있도록 도와달라"는 요청을 받았다고 글을 올렸다.이것은 이해충돌에 대한 논의를 촉발시켰고 나와 다른 편집자들은 찰스 글래서에게 이해충돌에 요약된 절차를 따르라고 권고했고, 그는 이에 동의했다.그 후 레비비치는 인신공격법적위협으로 간주될 수 있는 많은 발언들을 했다.

  • 찰스 글래서 에스크는 "나는 미디어 고문과 윤리학자로 이곳에 왔다"고 썼다.더 이상, 알았어?" 아니, 그건 아마 괜찮지 않을 거야. (01:54, 2019년 10월 20일)[84]
  • 만약 그가 변호사로 활동하면서 그것을 공개하지 않는다면, 그는 4.3"이하로 금지될 수 있다"는 것이 바로 내가 하려는 말이다.어떤 윤리학자가 규칙 4.3을 가지고 놀아? (18:08, 2019년 10월 20일)[85]

나는 레비비히에게 그들이 "법적 위협뿐만 아니라 인신공격의 영역에도 들어가고 있다"고 말했고, 그들의 우려는 COI나 ANI로 옮겨져야 한다고 말했고, 그들은 "나는 당신이 여기에 쓰여진 어떤 것에서도 인신공격이나 법적 위협을 볼 수 있는 곳을 이해하지 못한다."[87]

누군가가 레비비치에게 왜 그들의 게시물이 부적절하고 만약 그들이 계속한다면 그들에게 어떤 조치가 취해질 수 있는지 설명해 줄 수 있을까?

TFD (대화) 2019년 10월 20일 19:15 (UTC)[응답]

  • 큰 소리로 울다니.아마도 레비비치는 그 불온한 대화를 건너뛰어야 할 것이다. (변호사는 그가 잘못한 것이 없다고 가정할 때) 그러나 그렇지 않다면 이것은 아무것도 아닌 것에 대해 많은 소란을 피우는 것이다.EENG 19:30, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    나는 그 페이지에 나오는 레비비치의 행동은 적대적이고 도움이 되지 않으며, 위키피디아에 나쁜 평판을 주는 종류의 것이라고 생각한다.폴 아우구스트 인터뷰 19:35, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    폴 아우구스트, 그건 내가 지지할게!버프 (토크) 16:34, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 나는 인용된 섹션이 어떻게 인신공격이나 법적 위협을 구성하는지 아직도 이해가 안 된다.나는 다른 편집자의 해고에 대한 언급을 인용하여, 법적 위협이 아니라 변호사가 의뢰인과의 관계에 대해 수줍어하지 않는 이유로서 그것에 동의했다.나는 그 실타래를 계속할 생각이 없다, 두 명의 변호사 행정관에게 제2, 제3의 의견을 들을 생각이다. Levivich 19:58, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    이것은 전혀 적절하지 않다.당신은 동료 편집자에게 위키피디아에 기고하는 동기에 대해 질문했고, 동시에 그들 자신의 전문적인 행동 강령으로 그들을 위협했다.그리고 글래서가 이것이 적대적이라고 불평했을 때, 당신은 멈추지 않았다 – 당신은 계속 질문의 줄을 서서 욕을 했다.이것의 어떤 부분이 괜찮다고 생각될 수 있는가?bradv🍁 20:22, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    나는 그것을 꺼내지 않았다. 그것은 다른 편집자였다.나는 아직도 그 편집자의 논평이나 나 자신의 논평이 무엇으로든 누군가를 위협한다고 읽지는 않지만, 아래 바키프의 논평에 의하면 나는 그것을 괴롭혔다. Levivich 20:32, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    그건 쓰레기 더미야."규칙 4.3기억하라. 당신은 지금 대표되지 않은 정당들과 소통하고 있다." 기껏해야 4.3 커버가 무엇인지 사람들에게 말해준 나를 비난한다.버프 (토크) 16:30, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    아니, 브래드는 내가 "해고를 생각해냈다"고 말했고, 나는 (버프스, 너였다) 해고를 꺼내지 않았다고 대답했다.나는 규칙 4.3을 제기했지만, 금지나 다른 제재는 하지 않았다. Levivich 18:03, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    (갈등 편집) 나는 왜 WP가 다음과 같은지에 대해 생각하는 것이 중요하다고 생각한다.NLT가 존재한다.그것은 자유로운 편집을 억제하기 때문에 존재하는데, 이 경우 글래스터의 편집 요청권은 나쁜 감정과 신뢰의 결여를 만들어 내는데, 이것은 내가 제안할 우리의 현재 위치를 감안할 때, 그리고 위협의 명성을 만드는 사람에게 피해를 줄 수 있기 때문이다.마지막 것은 원치 않으시겠지만, 뉴욕 주의 프로페셔널 행동 강령 4.3을 참조하는 부분과 글래서가 토크에서 제시한 답변을 참조하는 것을 고려해 보시기를 권한다.데일리 콜러, WP:A사용자 대화:찰스 글래서 에스크는 자신의 역할에 대해 언급했다.Best, Barkeep49 (대화) 20:24, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
    좋아, 고통스러워. Levivich 20:32, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 찰스 글래서 에스크가 그들이 IP라고 말한다는 것을 우리는 찰스 글래서 에스크가 정말로 찰스 글래서라는 것을 확인했고, 따라서 IP가 글래서라는 사실에 대해 이야기할 필요가 없다는 것을 알게 되었다.Best, Barkeep49 (대화) 20:17, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 시간 표시줄:
나는 지금까지 위키백과에서 찰스 글래서(Charles Glasser)의 경험이 어떻게 전혀 긍정적이었는지, 그리고 레비비비치는 그들과의 상호작용에서 몇 가지 정책을 어겼는지 알 수 없다.불쾌감을 주는 논평들을 단순히 두드리는 것만으로는 충분하지 않다. 이것은 경계선 괴롭힘이고 그것은 다루어질 필요가 있다.bradv🍁 20:42, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
거기서 정곡을 찔렀어!완벽한 요약!버프 (토크) 16:37, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
  • Levivich가 말한 어떤 것이든 법적 위협이 된다는 것에 동의하지 않는다 - 내가 읽은 것은 그것이 단지 지금까지 Charles GlasserEsq의 행동의 적절성에 대해 논의해왔다는 것이다. 그가 직접 그것을 위반이라고 하거나 변호사 협회에 가져가겠다고 협박했다면 나는 그것을 NLT 선을 넘는 것으로만 생각할 것이다.나는 Levivich의 행동이 PA의 지점은 아닐지 몰라도, 그것은 진정될 필요가 있다.이 다 나왔으니, 나는 이 논의에 대해 조금 감시를 해왔고, 레비비히의 염려가 타당하다고 생각한다.상황이 내게는 좀 너무 애매한 것일 뿐, CGEsq의 진술은 내게 "내가 변호사라고 해서 변호사로 행동하는 것은 아니다"라고 말하는 것이 타당하다면, "나는 변호사의 역할을 하고 있지 않다"고 말하는 것으로 더 읽혀왔다. (편집: 일부 부분을 분명히 하고, 변호사 규칙에 대해 논평을 내고, 나는 두 명의 피킹한 편집자가 변호사라는 것을 알지 못했다., 그건 나에게 너무 가까운 선에 가까워지고 있다) 크레페트 (토크) 20:50, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답하라]
    • 법적 위협을 암시하는 것 외에 바 규칙을 제기하는 정당한 이유는 없다고 본다. bd2412T 20:46, 2019년 10월 20일(UTC)[응답]
      • BD2412, 다른 이유로 파업했지만, 나는 바 룰을 올리는 것(헤헤, "바를 올리는 것")이 다소 가정한 악플 정도로 법적인 위협이라고 생각하지 않는다.크레펫 (토크) 20:55, 2019년 10월 20일 (UTC)[응답]
        • 아래의 Hijiri88의 의견을 참조하라, 그러나, 그렇다, 당신의 요구의 일부로서 불화를 초래할 수 있는 규칙에 대해 누군가에게 상기시켜주는 것은 정말로 법적인 위협이다, 누군가의 직업을 위협하고, 그러한 증거가 없을불행을 암시한다.이 정도의 적개심은 대응이 필요하다.IMHO, 1분 블록이면 충분해.버프 (토크) 16:41, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 어떻게 그것이 법적인 위협이 되지 않는가? 죄송합니다만, 사용자 X가 Y를 하는 변호사인 경우, 그들은 Y를 하는 변호사일 수 있다는 점을 지적하는 것은 "나는 사용자 X가 Y를 하는 변호사라고 생각한다. 그리고 암시적으로 "나는 사용자 X가 Y를 하는 변호사라고 생각한다. 그리고 내가 증거를 발견하면 나는 그것들을 해제할 것이다."라는 꽤 명확한 진술이다. 전문 변호사는 오싹한 효과로부터 보호받을 필요가 없으며 따라서 NLT는 그러한 경우라면 긴장을 풀어야 한다거나, 아무 잘못도 하지 않는 사람은 그러한 위협에 겁을 먹을 이유가 없고 따라서 협박을 받는 사람들만이 잘못을 저지르고 "그것을 회피"하고 있다는 것을 암시하는 것은 상당히 노골적인 위반이다.NLT 정책의 정신과 서신 둘 다 이 문제에 대한 레비비치의 회피(다른 편집자의 해고에 대한 언급을 인용하고 그것동의했다고 주장하는 것)는 완전히 동떨어진 것이다: 버프스는 레비비치가 했던 것과 같은 생각을 말하지 않았다. 이런 점을 감안할 때 레비비치가 한 번이라도 자신이 한 일이 정책 위반임을 인정할 수 있는 기회를 준다면, 그리고 그렇게 하지 못하면 차단되어야 한다고 생각한다.(작은 공개: 감사하게도 현재 사이트 금지된 편집자가 보낸 이메일에 명시적인 법적 위협 때문에 2014년 대부분을 편집을 중단했는데, 그는 몇 주 동안 온라인에서 cutsy 준LT 언어를 사용했지만 차단되지는 않았다. 나는 "경계선"을 포함한 NLT 위반에 대한 내성이 매우 낮았는데, 그 이후 내 경험상 보통 심각한 위협과 스토킹에 대한 예의바른 대중들이 "예"하는 것에 지나지 않는다.)히지리 88 (聖やや) 05:44, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
    히지리88
    나는 분명히 그런 시각에 공감한다.
    사용자:
    Levivich는 다음과 같이 인식된 WP에서 선의로 운용하고 있었다.
    COI는 그러나 나는 때때로 여기 있는 사람들, 특히 오랜 편집자들이 더 까다로운 분야에서 흔히 볼 수 있는 날카로운 팔꿈치와 공격적인 의사소통 방식에 너무 익숙해져서 그들이 새로운 사용자나 경험 없는 사용자들에게 어떻게 보이는지를 간과한다고 생각한다.
    문제의 편집은, 비록 그을 넘는지 아닌지에 대해 의견이 분분하더라도, 법률적 위협의 선까지 발끝으로 다가서며, 이것이 건설적으로 편집으로부터 사람들을 밀어내는 종류의 것이기 때문에 뒤로 걸어가야 한다. 38.142.216.106 (대화) 13:49, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
    레비비비비치
    는 "
    장기 편집자
    "가
    아니다.
    "그래도 말이야.
    그는 약 1년 전에 편집을 시작했고, 그 후 대부분의 시간을 ANI에 보냈다.
    몇 달 전만 해도 그는 나를 힘들게 만들기로 결심한 편집자 중 한 명이었기 때문에, 그들 모두는 그들이 무슨 말을 하는지 확실히 알지 못하는 새로운 편집자였다.
    히지리 88 (聖聖
    )
    14:26, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
    .
    그랜드팔라마 (대화) 15:30, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • Levivich는 불쾌감을 주는 발언을 했고 그들이 왜 문제가 되었는지 이해하기를 바란다.움직일 시간이다.르프리카바크 (대화) 15:33, 2019년 10월 21일 (UTC)[응답]
  • @QEDK: 나는 당신의 비관리자 폐쇄를 시기상조라고 되돌렸다.레비비치는 그 어떤 잘못도 부인해 왔고, 그 정책을 계속해서 이해하지 못하는 것을 보여주었으며, 심지어 자신으로부터 주의를 끌려는 명백한 시도로 다른 편집자에 대한 허위 고발까지 했다.이러한 특정한 위반을 저지르는 동시에 같은 일이 다시 일어날 것이라고 효과적으로 약속하는 것은 충분하지 않다.히지리 88 (聖聖) 01:35, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    히지리88, 나는 이것을 닫는 것이 아니라 FWIW 나는 그렇게 해야 한다고 생각한다. 그리고 만약 당신이 그렇게 가까운 곳을 되돌렸다는 것을 게시하지 않았다면 나는 그것을 내가 했을 것이다.Levivich는 나에게 제시된 우려에 대해 언급하는 코멘트를 받았다.다른 논의가 될 수 있는 그런 행동들이 잘 진행된다면, 그러나 여기서 벌어지고 있는 사실들을 고려할 때 나는 이 실마리를 끌어내는 것이 어떤 이득이 되는지 모르겠다.Best, Barkeep49 (대화) 02:44, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    여기 히지리88 편을 들겠다.그것은 아직 끝나지 않았고, 아니, 그는 잘못을 인정하지 않았다.버프 (토크) 16:27, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    이런 상황에서 항상 문제가 되는 것은 어떤 종류의 잘못을 인정해야 하는가 하는 것이고, 또 어떤 방식으로, 우리가 앞으로 나아가기 위해서는 어떤 식으로든지요.나는 레비비히로부터의 더 깨끗한 입회가 도움이 될 것이라는 것에 동의하지만, 또한 여기서 제기된 문제들이 해결된 것으로 간주되기 위해서는 그것이 필요하지 않다고 생각한다.Best, Barkeep49 (대화) 16:58, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
    @Hijiri88: 나는 나의 폐쇄를 번복하는 것을 개의치 않지만, 그것을 BADNAC라고 부르는 것은 사실의 문제가 아니라 당신 자신의 의심스러운 판단이다.이 실타래가 내가 닫았던 것과 다를 바 없는 결론으로 이어질 것이라고 전적으로 확신한다(지금처럼 그때와 마찬가지로 법적 위협이 철회되었기 때문이다).내가 한 일은 드라마를 계속 열어놓음으로써 생겨날 드라마를 줄인 것뿐이었는데, 물론 지금 벌어지고 있는 일이다. --qedk (t c) 15:35, 2019년 10월 23일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 토크 페이지에서 다시 한 번 말하겠다.내게는 그가 변호사 자격증을 따는 것처럼 들리지만, 이 정도 능력에서는 변호사 직책과 무관한 직책에 피험자에게 채용된 사람에 지나지 않는다.나는 그의 동기가 여기서 의심스럽다고 생각하지 않는다.그는 WP를 따르고 있다.편지와 정신에 대한 COI.또 뭘 원하는지 모르겠어만약 그가 변호사로 활동하면서 그것을 공개하지 않는다면, 그는 4.3 [레비비치의 다른 발언 참조]에 의해 금지 해제될 수 있다...레비비치의 요구에도 불구하고, 그는 더 이상 자세한 설명을 할 필요가 없다는 그의 말을 의심할 이유가 없다고 생각한다.
WP:COI는 오해의 소지가 있는 문서다.그것은 당신이 기여할 수 없다는 것을 의미하지 않는다.그것은 당신이 정말로 이해 상충을 가지고 있다고 공개적으로 말하고 당신의 편집이 더 많은 정밀 조사를 받을 것이라는 것을 의미한다.그렇다고 네가 기여할 수 없다는 뜻은 아니야.버프 (토크) 16:27, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]
  • 내가 편집자에게 그들이 WP:3RR을 넘었다고 말하고 그들에게 되돌아가라고 요구한다면, 나는 그들을 WP로 데려갈 위협으로 보지 않는다.NEWNEW. 만약 내가 편집자의 토크 페이지에 공공 기물 파손 주의보를 올리면, 그것은 그들을 WP로 데려갈 위협은 아니다.AIV. 편집자에게 미개하다고 생각되는 코멘트를 해 달라고 하면, ANI로 데려가겠다는 협박은 아니다.마찬가지로, 나는 변호사에게 규칙 4.3에 따른 의무로 본 것을 상기시켜 주었을 때 어떤 위협도 의도하지 않았다.내 생각에, 누군가에게 규칙을 상기시키는 것은 어떤 종류의 강제 조치를 취하겠다고 위협하는 것과 같은 것이 아니다.그리고-심각하게-누군가가 위키에 올린 글 때문에 내가 누군가에게 변호사 소송을 제기할 것이라는 생각은 미친 짓이다.미쳤어.내 의도와 상관없이, 규칙 4.3을 언급하는 것은 불필요했다-나는 그것 없이 내 주장을 할 수 있었고, 이제 일부 편집자들이 실제 윤리 규칙이나 법률에 대한 언급을 (바케프가 위에서 나에게 지적했듯이) 집행 조치를 취하기 위한 암묵적인 위협으로 해석하고 있다는 것이 명백하다. 그리고 그 이유로, 나는 나의 의견을 표명했다.그리고 나는 미래에 현실 세계의 규칙과 법에 따른 사람들의 의무에 대해 언급하는 것을 피할 것이다. Levivich 18:03, 2019년 10월 22일 (UTC)[응답]

CharlesGlasserEsq

  • Comment am I the only one to think that we've actually missed a key point here? Is CharlesGlasserEsq a paid editor? If they are, they need to comply with WP:PAID per both our policy and the terms of use. It doesn't matter whether they're paid as a lawyer, a media publicist, an ethicist, a crisis manager or anything else. If they're receiving or expect to receive compensation for their editing it needs to be properly declared. Maybe this has already been done, but with the history from the IP and other stuff I'm not able to find any clear declaration. The closest I see is "This user has declared a connection" on the talk page, but I'm fairly sure this isn't sufficient since it doesn't say that they're being paid or who is paying them. Per the policy, a declaration on the article talk page would be enough especially since it seems likely their editing would be restricted to the talk page. However this would need to meet the requirements for such a declaration. The alternative would be a declaration on their user page which may a better alternative given the existing confusion. I thought about approaching the editor directly about this, but I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing since this is something I've never dealt with before and there seems to be plenty of experienced editors here yet we're talking about whether or not someone is complying with some arcane requirement for New York attorneys rather than whether they're complying with out ToU and policy. Nil Einne (talk) 11:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne: Actually I don't think anyone was talking about either of those things, and in fact they are fairly peripheral to the issue at hand. If you want to investigate CharlesGlasserEsq's on-wiki behaviour, discuss it with him, and only then (per WP:DR) file a separate ANI thread, be my guest. This thread is (was?) primarily about whether Levivich violated NLT. Per WP:BOOMERANG it would technically be okay to turn it on User:The Four Deuces, but turning it on a separate party mentioned in this thread seems like an inappropriate way to get around normal dispute resolution procedures and punish someone who didn't do anything that would normally result in ANI sanctions (see also this -- had I not left the encyclopedia in frustration I probably would have said the same thing to you then). Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: Except I never suggested a boomerang or sanction against CharlesGlasserEsq in any shape or form. I have zero interest in opening an ANI complaint on them. I have zero interest in DR since I have absolutely no dispute with them and have absolutely no desire to be in a dispute with them. I think my original statement was clear on this since at no stage whatsoever did I in any way suggest or imply the possibility of sanction against CharlesGlasserEsq. Yes I did comment on my understanding of the ToU and policy, but commenting on the requirements is quite different from indicating you will take action if they are not met.

I do stick by my point. We're missing the forest from the trees if we're getting so worked up about whether or not CharlesGlasserEsq was acting as a lawyer when we're not considering whether he is complying with PAID and our ToU. So far, no one more experienced with me has said anything even though this thread has plenty of attention, so either I've completely misunderstood our paid requirements and ToU. Or they've complied in some way that I've missed. Or we've completely missed the forest from the trees.

In that case, CharlesGlasserEsq has a decent defence if people complain that they aren't complying with PAID. (Although technically per the ToU, you are required to comply without needing anyone to tell you about it.) Further for all the seriousness that WP:PAID editing and the ToU requirements have, and for all that people seem to get worked up over paid editing, if my hunch is correct it seems in reality no one cares except in special cases.

Instead we're more interested in attacking each other for no reason. And on that note, I won't be engaging in this thread or the question over CharlesGlasserEsq's compliance further since when I tried to help by asking a simple question, I instead get attacked by you over something which I never said.

P.S. I don't recall much about whatever the fuck you're complaining about with the link and I don't care to read it. If you were sanctioned because of some shit you did which someone noticed in a slightly unrelated thread and you're still worked up about it because you feel the thread was unrelated even though I'm sure you were notified and aware of the discussion over possible sanction of you, I don't really give a fuck.

It's the way that ANI works, very often. The key issue is that editors need to be aware there is discussion about their actions and consideration over possible sanction. No one really cares whether the discussion started over something else provided that requirement is met since we're not a bureaucracy so don't require perfect structure in our discussions, simply fairness to all parties which is met by ensuring awareness not by requiring someone to open a separate discussion when an issue came up that needs to be dealt with. To be clear, I don't care to remember the details of every single minor dispute I've ever been in with another editor, unlike the way you seem to, so don't expect me to.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dude...pull the throttle back. You don't need language like that. I request you strike it and abide by WP:CIVIL ASAP. There's no need for that. Buffs (talk) 15:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so can I start talking about the incredibly off-topic and uncivil, borderline-NPA remarks you have now made about me? As long as I don't propose specific sanctions? You at least chose to come to ANI and write the above (I even suspect you reopened a closed thread to make the CharlesGlasserEsq remarks, but I don't have the inclination to check). If you are going to continue to use ANI in this manner I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree.
Can someone reclose this, anyway? I consciously decided not to question the second close by (I think?) Barkeep, and was honestly surprised anyone would.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're free to do what ever you want, as everyone is. If you violate our policies and guidelines, you will be blocked, as with everyone. You should know all this by now. And you're the one who chose to attack me for a simple comment I made, bringing up completely random crap from months ago that I don't recall that have zero to do with what I was saying.

And of course you're completely wrong with your accusation. I saw this thread closed, wondered about paid compliance, considered suggesting directly to CharlesGlasserEsq the requirements but changed my mind since I decided there was probably some compliance somewhere that I had missed since it seemed to have the involvement of several experienced editors. Or maybe they'd made clear someone they were just volunteering and not paid. About 12 hours later I saw it had been reopened.

I didn't check or care who re-opened it. My guess was Levivich who replied before me and hadn't replied last time I saw it closed. But actually although they made this IMO questionable formatting change [88] it wasn't. Turns out the second close wasn't even a proper close as it was an IP spoofing Black Kite [89] [90] who understandably reverted when people pointed it out. (The first closure at least was proper [91].)

Seeing it reopened, it seemed a good opportunity to bring the focus back on stuff that I felt mattered. I have concerns for (not about) CharlesGlasserEsq. My gut feeling is I'm not missing something. We've completely missed the forest from the trees. And I have a hunch CharlesGlasserEsq is going to be the one who suffers from this. As I said, plenty of people do take paid and ToU compliance seriously, and it's quite likely one of them is going to notice. And technically you are required to obey it without being told and if CharlesGlasserEsq doesn't do so, both them and their client could suffer in numerous ways. (Meanwhile, we've shown how bad we are at working with people trying to comply with our requirements.)

I get the feeling CharlesGlasserEsq is doing their best to do the right thing, but unfortunately they haven't always received the best advice. If no one had replied to my comment, I may have just gone back to my first plan and talked to them directly. But since you attacked me needlessly, I frankly can't be bothered any more. I do my best to help out around here, but when it results in needless attacks from people who are supposed to be colleagues working with me to make Wikipedia a better place, why bother? If CharlesGlasserEsq suffers, it is ultimately on them since especially as a lawyer, I guess they should know to always read the ToU. They are being paid for it after all.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) I would point out, that the NLT requirements have been for a long time that if someone makes a legal threat they need to withdraw that threat, making it clear they are not threatening to engage in legal action. If they do so, they will not be blocked and will be unblocked if they are currently blocked. We do not block people if they no longer have an extant legal threat. And as always, we don't punish people with blocks, such as just to say they made a legal threat which has been withdrawn. I agree with others that Levivich's comments seem to have the same chilling effect as legal threats, and so our response should be the same. But this applies in all direction. Since Levivich has clearly withdrawn their comments and has made it clear they will not be making ethics complaints, the threat is over. I am somewhat concerned that Levivich doesn't seem to understand why bringing up claims of ethics violations which someone says may lead to disbarment is a serious problem given the chilling effect it has. But ultimately if they undertake not to do that any more they don't have to understand. When I saw this thread had been reopened, I was hoping we could instead focus on more important things like compliance with our policies and terms of use, but since apparently we can't, can we at least put this silliness to bed? Nil Einne (talk) 14:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CharlesGlasserEsq's contributions have already been discussed and resolved at AN.[92] Since he has agreed to follow COI (which has a section on paid editing), I don't see any issues. TFD (talk) 14:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'm sure I saw CharlesGlasserEsq's possible COI mentioned before which is why I was even more confused. Looking at that now, it seems PAID was brought up, just not properly followed up so I'm less confused. For clarification WP:PAID and our ToU require that you declare your interests in specific ways. I don't see how any of these have been followed since their user page is still a red link, most of their edit summaries are blank and the statement I see on the talk page seem woefully inadequate. (As a case in my point, I'm still not sure if they are actually being paid by Daily Caller or just doing it as a friend/volunteer.) The COI guidelines actually does mention this requirement as well. But more to the point, the declaration is not optional and you can't do it in any ways other than those listed. Actually per policy, it would be better for someone to make the declaration and edit articles directly than to fail to make a proper declaration but to propose changes at the talk page. Since there is no requirement in our guidelines that you must not edit directly, it's simply a strong recommendation; but the disclosure requirement is written into both policy and the site's terms of use. From my experience this isn't simply abstract either. When someone fails to disclose properly, this can result in major problems including reputational damage. Mostly this is when there was absolutely no disclosure and where it's someone editing multiple articles. But at least for blocks and major anger on wikipedia, I'm fairly sure there have been cases when someone sort of disclosed but didn't do it properly. (I.E. some people do take the requirements very seriously.) Anyway thanks for actually discussing the issue in good faith and in a respectful manner and so restoring my confidence in Wikipedia and its editors. I'm now confident that it isn't something I've missed, simply that the issue fell by the wayside with all the other confusion and will take it directly to the editor concerned. Nil Einne (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Goodness, this continues. I obviously think Nil has a point. Here's what CharlesGlasserEsq has disclosed about his relationship with The Daily Caller:
    1. "I represent The Daily Caller ... My sole interest in finding that "right" place where the public interest served by WP is maintained and at the same time, improving readership trust in WP, as well as fairness to The Daily Caller ... Thanking you kindly in advance, Charles Glasser, Esq."
    2. "... while I am a lawyer (I defend reporters and publsihers, not sue them) this is not any kind of threat. It's a sincere call for help."
    3. "I'm Charles Glasser, and I was retained recently by The Daily Caller to try and see if there was a way to bring some errors to your attention ... I'm a media lawyer ... This is by no means a legal threat, that's not how I roll." (Same message posted again here.)
    4. "I was only recently asked by The Daily Caller to help sort out some factual inaccuracies and biased material ... The Daily Caller has no interest in suing anybody. They just want a clean, fair shake, and a chance to collaboratively resolve this."
    5. "... there is NO repeat NO intention of filing any kind of legal action. That's not what I do. I'm a lawyer who *defends* all kinds of speakers, from the ACLU to Greenpeace to The Heritage Foundation and I was retained specifically to try and undo the (IMHO obnoxious) approach made by previous people on behalf of the Daily Caller."
    6. "I work for myself and am an independent legal consultant to a wide variety of charities and publications, and as you see from the page about me, I am also a professor at two major universities where I teach Media Ethics and Law."
    7. "Just for the record (and clarity) the fact that I am an attorney does NOT mean I am acting in that capacity. I'm also a professor of Media Ethics at two major universities. Having me try to straighten this out is NOT "engaging the legal system." That would be a lawsuit: something that isn't even under consideration. LOL, if I buy a hot dog from a vendor on the street, is he or she "engaging" legal counsel? I'm here as a media adviser and ethicist. Nothing more, OK?"
    8. "Gosh, ich, that sounds awfully hostile, and this issue has been clarified elsewhere ... As for my being an attorney, I've made it clear here and elsewhere that there is no legal threat ... There's no secret agenda here: as a media ethicist I'm simply trying to see if I can help straighten this out in a cooperative and respectful way."
    • I thought #1–5 ("I represent The Daily Caller", "I am a lawyer (I defend reporters and publishers, not sue them)", "I was retained recently by The Daily Caller", "I'm a media lawyer", "I was only recently asked by The Daily Caller to help", "I was retained ... on behalf of the Daily Caller") did not square with #6–8 ("I work for myself and am an independent legal consultant", "the fact that I am an attorney does NOT mean I am acting in that capacity", "I'm here as a media adviser and ethicist. Nothing more, OK?", "As for my being an attorney, I've made it clear here and elsewhere that there is no legal threat ... There's no secret agenda here: as a media ethicist").
    • He wrote "this issue has been clarified elsewhere", but I didn't feel the issue was clear. Is he representing The Daily Caller, is he speaking on their behalf, is he WP:PAID? Or is he an "independent" "consultant", "analyst" or "ethicist"? If he's being paid by The Daily Caller to change the article The Daily Caller, then he is covered by our rules about WP:PAID editors. Which, I don't think he is complying with. For example, he hasn't posted the required templates. There is a difference between WP:PAID and WP:COI, with different requirements (for example, different templates).
    • BD2412 wrote above, "I see no valid reason for raising the bar rules other than to imply a legal threat." Well, actually, it was specifically because Wikipedia's policies (WP:COI and WP:PAID) aren't entirely clear (in my mind, and I think in CharlesGlasserEsq's, too) about the specific disclosure to be made, and whether the disclosures above are sufficient. Rule 4.3 (which isn't just a New York rule, but one of the American Bar Association Model Rules of Professional Conduct adopted in 49 out of 50 US states) is exactly on point. That's why I raised it, meaning, "Even if Wikipedia's rules aren't clear, the real-world rules are clear." Again, I didn't mean that as any kind of threat, and I'm not going to file any kind of complaint or take any legal action whatsoever. I shouldn't have mentioned it, but that's the reason I did.
    • I raised these issues because I thought the editor wasn't being clear about being a WP:PAID editor. Being an attorney representing an article subject, and speaking on behalf of an article subject to Wikipedia editors about their article, is different–to me–than being an "independent legal consultant" or a "media adviser" or "media ethicist". Whether the rest of the editing community thinks this is clear or not clear, and whether policies have or have not been complied with, that's up to you all. (I will post a notice on CharlesGlasserEsq's talk page informing them of this discussion.) Levivich 15:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems clear to me that whether he's paid or not is irrelevant. He clearly has a WP:COI and he's openly stating it. If he's being paid, obviously WP:PAID needs to be followed too, but it seems he's done all that WP:PAID requires already. Making him jump through arbitrary and unnecessary hoops by demanding he answer your questions isn't necessary. Buffs (talk) 15:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Buffs, I'm honestly shocked to read "whether he's paid or not is irrelevant". Aside from WP:PAID, there's also the "Paid contributions without disclosure" section of Wikimedia:TOU. I don't think the requirements of PAID and TOU are "arbitrary and unnecessary hoops". If the editor is covered by WP:PAID, it doesn't seem to me that the requirements of WP:PAID have yet been met. For example, there isn't a {{Connected contributor (paid)}} template at the top of Talk:The Daily Caller (instead, it's the {{Connected contributor}} template, to be used by non-paid editors with a COI). There isn't a {{Paid}} template at User:CharlesGlasserEsq. For more, see the suggestions Nil has posted at User talk:CharlesGlasserEsq#WP:PAID compliance (to which CharlesGlasserEsq has responded indicating he is "being paid in a media consultant capacity" and will review Nil's suggestions, which is clear enough for me). Everyone agrees the rules are confusing, and it's not a big deal to add the requisite templates (if necessary), but surely you can agree as to the objective fact that WP:COI and WP:PAID are two different pages with two different requirements (including different templates), and it's important that all editors covered by either of those policies, comply with those policies. Levivich 16:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was kind of Nil Einne to reach out to CharlesGlasserEsq to help him get into compliance with WP:PAID. It seems to me that CharlesGlasserEsq is in good faith attempting to comply with Wikipedia rules and keep his activity on here on behalf of the Daily Caller aboveboard and appropriate. However, he may have inadvertently overlooked one disclosures which Nil Einne and Levivich noted above, but I think that now that this has been brought to his attention he will go ahead and post the required disclosure mandated by the Wikimedia Terms of Use and that will be resolve the outstanding issues related to policy compliance. I don't think that this will be a big problem or something that necessarily will result in ongoing drama; it is just an oversight that Levivich/Nil Einne noticed and it will very likely be corrected as soon as CharlesGlasserEsq logs in again and sees the notification. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 16:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I posted this elsewhere, but wanted to express to Nil Einne thanks so much and yes, I want to do everything on the "up and up" and if I miss something (like the disclosure rules you mentioned) be assured it's not monkey business but merely my being a newbie. I will look over Nil Einne's comments and figure out how to make clear to any and all that I am being paid in a media consultant capacity to try and break through the log jam, get past some of the acrimony that appeared regarding the article and make this a pleasant and productive thing. That serves not just the Daily Caller's interest, but goes a long way in dispelling the public perception that it's a sort of "Wikipedia Club" and that only certain people with certain agendas have control or input over what is a very powerful and important element of our modern discourse and information source. I'm having some medical issues at the moment, so it'll take me while to get some things done. Thanks again, Charles CharlesGlasserEsq (talk) 16:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq (talk) 16:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Saqiwa and original research on Fijian chieftain lineages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Saqiwa is an editor that flew under the radar for a few years, all of his contributions are about the geneology of Fijian chieftains, but it's only recently that someone started to notice that these edits consisted of unsourced original research, original research sourced to drawings of geneology trees (which fail verification), and "sourced" edits that fail verification.

Reliable sourcing has been explained to him several times, here by Marchjuly, here at the Teahouse, and here by me.

Verifying his contributions is very time consuming as the information is disjointed and because he does cite some sources, it just fails verification.

Some examples:

  • [93][94] DrKay reverting his addition to Nakorotubu District as it all failed verification.
  • The outcome of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monarchy of Fiji was "Keep, but delete everything Saqiwa has added".
  • [95] Failed verification
  • [96] Failed verification
  • [97] Use of an unreliable thesis, explained multiple times, reinserted multiple times. The same thesis failed verification for the statement it was used for in this next edit:
  • [98] Adding large disjointed sections about geneology and intermarriage to the article Roko Malani, but it does not actually start with the article's subject Roko Malani (1754–1833) but instead a namesake who was alive in 1879. Among sources are scanned geneology trees that don't even mention the subjects.
Source check for the above
  • Source does not mention any of the claims it's attached to in "The two brother's great grandfather, Ratu Meli Salabogi (1) declared Nakorotubu as an independent state in 1860 to protest of Ratu Seru Cakobau declaring himself as a self-styled Tui Viti during the Deed of Cession negotiation with Great Britain"
  • The 1959 installation of Ratu Sir George Cakobau by Ratu Meli Salabogi (3)'s son Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2) proceeded without any problems or disputes is sourced to an an image of some people sitting in a circle
  • Page 243 does not verify any of "The care and benefits from the coconut plantation of the Lau Provincial Council and the Vuanirewa clan in Lakeba resulted in the diplomatic shift of Fiji's traditional and political order, as Nakorotubu ensured a smooth and favorable leadership seat for Niumataiwalu's lineage in Bau and Lau post-World War 2 and post-1970 independence during Ratu Sir George Cakobau and Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara leadership time."
  • Multiple family relations "sourced" to this document, but it does not seem to actually verify the statements it's attached to.
  • Unsourced BLP statements about the police & military intervening with someone in 2018. Note, this is in an article about someone who died in 1833.
  • [99]. Not in the cited source, the other source is from 1862 and is therefore unlikely to include comments on the marriage of someone born in 1879.
  • 10 October 2019, giving two sources, one of which doesn't mention the subject and another that a) mentions a namesake in passing but not the subject and b) is an unreliable opinion piece.
  • 13 October 2019, part failed verification, part improper use of primary sources whose existence can't be verified
Source check for the above

1. Roko Malani (2) - (1820-1890)[citation needed] of Lau.[1][primary source; can't verify the existence of this document] Younger brother of Ratu Tevita Uluilakeba (1), the Tui Nayau and grand nephew of Roko Malani (1). He named a newly birthed Ra chief as Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1879-1933) during his stop over visit to puakaloa vasu maternal relatives at Nabukadra village in 1879 before attending a Methodist church conference in Vuda.[citation needed]

2. Roko Malani (1879-1933)[citation needed] of Ra.[2][primary source; can't verify the existence of this document] Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani, former Sergeant of the Fiji Armed Constabulary Force in Levuka and late Buli Kavula, son of Ratu Amenatave Dewalarua and Seleima Veinoyaki and grandson of Ra chief, Ratu Meli Salabogi mentioned in the W.J. Smythe Cession Preliminary Report of 1862. Married Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan, the daughter of Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei (younger brother of Ratu Tevita Uluilakeba (1) and Roko Malani (2) who named Roko Malani from Ra during birth in 1879). They had two issues, Ratu Meli Salabogi MBE, JP (1911-1989) and Ratu Wilisoni Tuiketei Malani OBE, JP, OSTJ (1920-2005).[citation needed]

3. Roko Malani (1937-2013)[citation needed] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2), the elder brother of Adi Laufitu Malani and son of Ratu Meli Salabogi MBE, JP (1911-1989). He traditionally endorsed and spent a night at Vatanitawake in Bau during the Vunivalu of Bau installation in 1959.[3][Can not verify existence of this source][4][Primary source, can't verify its existence; how can a source from 1918 be used for someone born in 1937?][5][not in citation given]

References

  1. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC) Tukutuku ni Yavusa ko Lakeba, Ratu Jekesoni Yavala-Tubou Lakeba, Lau, 1930
  2. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), Jone Vatuwaliwali, Nagigi, Cakaudrove, 1923.
  3. ^ Fijilive website report on Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani heritage endorsement as a descendant of the 1st Vunivalu- Nailatikau (1) & Grandson of Vueti the 1st Roko Tui Bau and Tui Viti when Ratu Sir George Cakobau was installed as the Vunivalu of Kubuna. 50 years on, Bau awaits installation of Vunivalu of Bau, Fijilive, September 18, 2009
  4. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), 'Tukutuku ni Yavusa Kubuna', Ratu Isoa Natuituba, 1918
  5. ^ Genealogy on the Origin of the 1st Vunivalu from Nakorotubu, Ra presented on page 31 by the late Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi, Roko Tui Bau & 2006-2009 Vice President of Fiji in 'The Life and Times of Cakobau: The Bauan State to 1855'- A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Otago, New Zealand By Hurray P. Heasley, B.A. (Hons.), Otago. August, 2010. [1]

Saqiwa's comments:

  • [100] "What I am concerned about is how other wikipedia editors are selective and inconsistent in applying the wikipedia rules to my articles. For the last 4 years, all my articles were not considered important, however recently there seems to have been a sudden increase to the scrutiny of my contributions, specifically when certain information/documents that were considered confidential and question certain status quo have been shared. I have now reached a stage of keeping a personal copy of my contributions in order to compare that with the reasons that a editor will use to delete or amend my articles to prove that there are ulterior motives of amending my articles through the wikipedia rules. Before, wikipedia editors would be very friendly and encouraging by guiding and amending my articles whereas, now, the only thing that I am receiving are threats of being blocked from wikipedia, which makes my conspiracy thoery more relevant."
  • [101] "can this be part of an organised watch group to suppress Fijian historical facts? [...] There is definitely something more than this, perhaps the sensitivity of the Fijian historical facts exposed?"
  • [102] "This sudden increase in scrutiny [of my edits] happened lately in the last few months when confidential information about Fiji's history were shared"
  • [103] "the recent micromanaging and scrutiny to my contributions seems to have started from the recent exposure of suppressed Fiji's history that are well documented but suppressed for reasons well known."

Thjarkur (talk) 15:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thjarkur This is really an abuse of power in editing privilege. There is really evidence of selective editing in keeping similar sourced materials in Roko Malani compared to my articles including the Roko Malani article 1879-1933. Wikipedia should be aware that this is happening and the reputation of wikipedia is at stake.Saqiwa (talk) 03:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support indefinite block or topic ban. The diffs and quotes provided above by Þjarkur clearly show that Saqiwa is determined to keep adding fringe original research to wikipedia. He has just once again misrepresented a source in this edit. The source he provided did not support the material he added, and he removed the material that opposed his view and that was reliably sourced. There have been numerous warnings and explanations at User talk:Saqiwa and they've just not worked. A block is now the only way to prevent further disruption. DrKay (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure whether WP:INDEF would be warranted at this time, but Saqiwa's tendency to perceive those who disagree with their edits are part of some WP:CONSPIRACY (both on Wikipedia and out in the real world) designed to prevent the "truth" about Fiji from being added to Wikipedia is becoming a bit of a time drain. I do think Saqiwa is sincere and means well, but at the same time all editors are expected to work within the constraints of relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines and try our best to ensure that articles are kept in accordance with these policies and guidelines as much as possible. There may indeed be problems with how the subjects Saqiwa is interested in are being covered in reliable sources, but I've tried to explain to them that it's not Wikipedia role to set the record straight and fix things.
    Assuming from the beginning that other editors just have to be WP:NOTHERE because they are challenging edits and by making comments to that extent at places like the Teahouse (e.g. Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1015#Follow-up to Editors are editing and removing my articles and demanding quotations of sources when they are already quoted.) and in edit summaries (e.g. this and this), immediately starts to move things into WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:USTHEM territory which only makes discussing them that much harder. Then, there's also a tendency to not follow WP:BRD when edits are challenged (e.g. here) which is quickly leading to WP:EW and WP:3RR problems. I've tried to encourage Saqiwa to follow WP:DR and resolve these content disputes through article talk page discussion and thought I was having some success; however, they seem to reverting back to a more brute force approach to try and force their edits through once again. I've got no idea why articles Saqiwa has been editing for some time are suddenly attracting attention (I only saw the Teahouse question and then tried to figure out what was going on), but questionable content is not just simply kept because it's been there for awhile; if someone comes along and challenges it, even after years of going unnoticed, then the best way forward is generally to try to sort things out is through article talk page discussion. I think Saqiwa needs to realize this because continuing on as before is not going to be to anyone's benefit. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:08, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He continues to point to unreliable opinion pieces that don't verify any of his claims. All of this has been pointed out to him here, but he refuses to listen. He has again rewritten and added sources to this draft, but the sources don't verify his claims (he points to a source from 1918 for someone born in 1937). I have actually not found a single statement in his contributions that has turned out to be mentioned in the sources he cites. – Thjarkur (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support topic ban - I think that there's a real risk with editors who do stuff like this. While it is easy for anti vandalism patrollers and other editors to catch when completely unsourced and false information is added to an article, it is much harder to catch when faked sources are used, especially if the information presented is not outlandish to the naked eye. A patroller would have to step through each source and carefully read it, which could allow a user like this to slip in inaccurate/false information and have it go unchallenged for a long time. 107.77.203.73 (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As Saqiwa is now edit-warring to insist that someone who died in 1833 is the father of someone born in 1920 because the lineage is apparently supernatural[104], I feel that this section has been archived prematurely, and have consequently restored it. DrKay (talk) 10:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the Fijians had cryogenic sperm banks? EEng 06:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
EEng (talk·contribs) You think Fiji had cryogenic sperm banks in the early 1920s?? I'm not sure that's 100% plausible but in any case if that was the case then surely he would be able to come up with a source for that haha ;) 38.142.216.106 (talk) 18:10, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1830s, actually. EEng 00:15, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
EEng (talk · contribs) - maybe you are right lmao. At the very least, we can't rule it out. I'd love to see the reliable sources Saqiwa will use to support this claim though. I think they will be quite fascinating. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A topic ban is basically going to be, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of an indefinite block in this case. Saqiwa has been pretty much an WP:SPA editing only Fiji related articles since they created their account, and it seems very unlikely that they will simply switch to another subject matter and stay away from Fiji articles; so, there's no point in a topic ban since my guess is that it would not be effective. The edit warring with multiple editors at Nakorotubu District over a disagreement on what a source says (or doesn't say) and some of the comments being made on the article's talk page seem to indicate a problem that goes beyond one particular article. The constant WP:ASPERSIONs that others have some kind of ulterior motive in challenging their edits is starting to cause things to heat up unnecessarily and is making it harder to try and have any productive discussion. Perhaps an administrator warning or maybe even a short cool-down block might be warranted to give them a chance to try and reflect. If things don't improve after that, then a much stronger response might be warranted. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support any sanctions. His block log is clean so I guess we could try a time-limited block. But I doubt there is anything we can do to turn him into an effective contributor. Haukur (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a topic ban or a block at this point. Someone who is willing to edit war to include obviously false and frankly preposterous information in the articles is probably never going to be a good editor. The fact that he has already graduated to advanced disruption (using faked sources to make it hard for editors to catch his bad edits) is already worrying. I think if the community agreed to something less than an indef topic ban then we will be here again as soon as it expires (and probably before it expires TBH). 38.142.216.106 (talk) 18:10, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks, extreme POV language by 78.144.186.199

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit alone warrants a block. On top of the other edits to the article talk page ([105]), this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked for 72 hours. El_C 06:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Definitely needs an admin's touch

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was gnoming around saw User:Itamar_Shamam this user's page. The user page is being used as an article which isn't appropriate, the article appears to be about the named user, but I'm not sure as it goes from one topic to another (physics?) topic without an interruption. At the bottom the user has a "copyright" style message as well.

I didn't want to move his user page to a sandbox as I wasn't sure if this would mess up his user page, and I already know copying and pasting this into a sandbox is wrong, so I thought I'd alert the admin corps instead. This user will be notified as soon as I'm done here. Necromonger...We keep what we kill 15:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It does look like he is using his user page as an article, but it is not clear if he is trying and failing to write a BLP in sandbox about himself or if he is misunderstanding the role of a userspace. Taking a look at his contribution history, it looks like nearly all of his edits are to that page so there may be a WP:NOTHERE issue as well as a potential referral to WP:Miscellany for deletion. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm deleting per U5 and issuing an only warning. The complete lack of editing anything else makes it abundantly clear he's only interested in pushing... whatever the hell that is on his userpage, which isn't the purpose of Wikipedia. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And his response made it abundantly clear that his goals are rather clearly not aligned with improving Wikipedia. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:09, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Blade of the Northern Lights - is there a way for him to get a copy of the information he wrote? It looks like someone deleted all of it before he had a chance to respond to the ANI notification, so from his perspective the deletion would seem abrupt and he might not have had a chance to save a copy. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I offered to give him a copy in the note mentioned below. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one ever told him anything about how this place works. The user page obviously doesn't belong, but we could be gentler about it than this. I've left a note on his talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:19, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geez...less than 4 hours from "hey might this be a user who doesn't understand" and without ANY notification to "delete without a chance to recover"? WP:BITE much? Good night! What would the harm have been to just blank the page and leave a note on his talk page explaining? Or, perhaps allowed him to explain/converse? If we smack everyone who makes a mistake with a 40 lb hammer, we're going to drive away editors that could easily have been saved. Totally unnecessary. Buffs (talk) 22:03, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This user had an account for almost 2 years, and save a single mainspace edit did nothing but edit his userpage. Obviously I'm fine with giving him a copy of what's been deleted, but I'm also a bit less than sympathetic to someone who in 2 years made no serious effort to discern the purpose of Wikipedia. If he wants to contribute here further, in accordance with what Wikipedia is for, I'd happily welcome anything he has to add. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:58, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Dorarocks2003

A user by the name of Dorarocks2003 has been pestering me on my talk page about The Powerpuff Girls (2016 TV series) supposedly ending, even though there has been no official confirmation that it has ended - [106] [107]. They had previously taken to talk pages about articles related to the show ([108], [109]).

I had repeatedly told them that we can't say the show has ended yet since there is no official confirmation and it hasn't been a year since the most recent episode aired, yet they continued to bother me. I feel like this is a clear-cut case of an editor repeatedly showing an inability to get the point, and since most of their edits are trying to push for saying the show is done for, I feel as if they are clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. What say the rest of you? The Grand Delusion(Send a message) 15:54, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dorarocks2003: Wikipedia is written according to what reliable sources say. If there are no sources to confirm this, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Please just let it go until you can provide proof. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Does this give off Bambifan101 vibes to anyone else? -- Rockstonetalk to me! 19:16, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rockstone: That was my first thought reading this. Thryduulf (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rockstone:@Thryduulf: Me, or the editor I'm reporting? It's not immediately clear to me. The Grand Delusion(Send a message) 20:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@The Grand Delusion: Sorry for not being clear, it's the user you are reporting (Dorarocks2003) that reminds me of Bambifan101. Thryduulf (talk) 21:22, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not Bambifan101.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:38, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bbb23: Not sure if you used your checkuser powers, but although they reminded me of Bambifan101, I wasn't sure given that the user edited a random IPv6 talk page after making their account, whose IP geolocates to Massachusets. They just reminded me of them. Speaking of which, has Bambifan101 been active, or did they finally give up? -- Rockstonetalk to me! 01:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@The Grand Delusion: Yes, I meant the user. My apologies. No boomerang here! -- Rockstonetalk to me! 01:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Consistent Original research additions by Deathlibrarian

First addition of the OR was observed here[110], the edit stated "30 mile safezone on the Turkish border. This is the majority of the areas where the Kurdish population lives," without a citation. I've added a ((cn)) tag [111]. User took it out adding a citation with a new statement [112] "30 mile safe-zone on the Turkish border. 2.2 million Kurds live in the proposed safe zone" I checked the citation and it said 2.2 million people live, Kurdish and not, not in the 30mile area but the entire Rojava area. I feel this was done deliberately. Also, the article Second Battle of Ras al-Ayn (2019) which was created and mostly written by the user has over a dozen missing citations in it, yet even after me adding ((cn)) templates user continued to add incorrect information. I feel the addition of OR will continue without an intervention and I cannot keep checking all of users edits to detect the original research and felt the urge to make a notification here. KasimMejia (talk) 12:42, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is content dispute. Please follow WP:Dispute resolution. According to BBC [113], When the Turkish offensive began, the UN said the potentially affected area included SDF-controlled territory that was home to 2.2 million people.... My very best wishes (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know it said, yet the user wrote it as 2.2 million Kurds lived in the 30mile safe zone. Where as the article states 2.2 million people (Kurdish and Arab) lived in the entire SDF held zone (about 6 times the safe zone). The article is full of other failed verifications too and user cannot keep writing unsourced information like this. KasimMejia (talk) 14:35, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The reason I opened this incident is because user even after being told of adding original research continued to add original research. I believe if I don't notify the administrators about this the user will keep adding original research and I can't stop him with discussion. KasimMejia (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Possibly you could have discussed your concerns with them a bit more? I cant see anything on the talkpage of the article except a debate about terminology...You templated them with an OR template on their talkpage 10 minutes before opening this ANI, after tagging it citation needed what..an hour or so before that? You tagged one section of the article with citation needed tags, proposed the article for deletion, then sent it to AFD, all in one day, yesterday. You appear only to have been editing yourself for about a month or so..perhaps slow down a bit before dragging other editors to ANI? Curdle (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    HI everyone - as far as I can interpret that article, the 2.2 million refers to the kurds living in the safe zone(ie the "potentially affected area"), not the whole of Rojava. The BBC article says "the UN said the potentially affected area included SDF-controlled territory that was home to 2.2 million people". The population of the whole of Rojava is not 2.2 million, its in fact 3.5 - 4 million. Cheers Deathlibrarian (talk) 20:41, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"population of the whole of Rojava is not 2.2 million, its in fact 3.5 - 4 million." According to who? This is yet again an original research even at the noticeboard, the article Rojava says the whole of Rojava population is 2 million. Including Arabs and Kurds. I also don't understand how you interpret the source saying affected area included SDF-controlled territory that was home to "2.2 million people" as "2.2 million Kurds live" in the area. When there is no mention to the word Kurdish at all. The article you have written still has alot of original research in it too. KasimMejia (talk) 08:02, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And there is still nothing on the talkpage of the article, which is where this discussion should be taking place. Curdle (talk) 11:18, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you already said that, and I told you user continued despite discussion. KasimMejia (talk) 11:33, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Population is 4 million, according to the official Rojava cite and NY Times say 4.6 million Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good! I hope you add it to the articles from now on too. Without giving a citation there is no basis on where the information is coming from. And also, you changed a statement saying 2.2 million people live in the safe zone to 2.2 million Kurds live in the safe zone. How do you know they are all Kurds when the source doesn't say so? KasimMejia (talk) 06:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And that's a discussion to have on the article talk page. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:36, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Pod mod (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views)
QuackGuru (talk · contribs)

WP:AN is pushing a backlog drive on AfC. Accordingly RoySmith took pod mod into mainspace [114] (so thanks for that). QuackGuru has now removed it [115] as "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR."

I was thus prompted to raise the following with them:

Pod mod
I'm concerned about your removal of this article [116].
Firstly, we have an AfD process. I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's fundamental here that we operate by consensus. We do not support single-handed deletion of articles like this.
Secondly, your reason for removing this article was "Redirect non-notable hoax article. (Please do not restore the mass failed verification content. See WP:CIR.)" [117] That's four separate claims as to why it should be removed. Yet these are unrelated claims, and you have shown no reason to support any of them. In particular, alleging a "hoax" article is a strong allegation against the editor who created that article and should not be made without some evidence to back it up. Importantly though, you then went on to add content from this article [118] to a new section Construction of electronic cigarettes#Pod mods. So which is it? If this is a "hoax", why are you propagating it further? If these sources failed verification in one article, why are they now acceptable in another?
I'm also less than happy about you using inlined ELs rather than correctly formatted citations and references. [119] Is there any particular reason for this?
Once again, your editing raises concerns. You are quick to add a warning banner about Discretionary Sanctions to this article, but you don't point out that you were the editor warned when such sanctions were applied Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#QuackGuru_Warned.
This blanking of an article was inappropriate and disruptive. It goes against our accepted practice re AfD, should such an article really be inappropriate. Your allegations against it are unsupported, and also targeted against a specific editor, Sydneystudent123456. Your re-use of some content from the article also rather defeats the claims you made against it originally. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

QuackGuru blanked that without reply (they habitually blank all items on their talk:, rather than archiving). They similarly blanked a second request to discuss this.

I don't see this as acceptable editing, especially not when it's WP:OWN over a whole topic space, one which QuackGuru has got into trouble over before. We work by consensus here (do we still?) Single-handed deletions are not how we do things! I don't myself know if pod mods are notable (to the level of a distinct article) and had already asked as much on the talk: page. (I'm in the UK, I don't vape, I'm unfamiliar with the subtle variants). It does appear now that pod mods are a topic of some debate and we have coverage of them under the broader e-cig articles and also at Juul, the major commercial brand. But this is primarily a behavioural problem – single editors don't get to blank articles, the reasons given are hand-waving at best, certainly not supported by any evidence or specific claim, and when challenged like this it's incumbent upon WP:BOLD editors to be ready to at least discuss it. I would have un-redirected the article and AfDed it myself, except for the second refusal to discuss. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. QuackGuru said failed verification, so I was expecting something really ridiculous like the sources didn't actually exist, but that's not the case. Haven't looked into it thoroughly yet but I'd say whatever QG saw that led him to just instantly blank the page is not obvious, at least to me. I think it's possible this is a reasonable action (the redirect only, not the subsequent interactions), but it really needs to be explained. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed. If it had been a "hoax article" then we have WP:CSD#G3 for that and at least an admin and a second pair of eyes would have seen it.
They still haven't communicated, but they have been busy editing and they've added a comment as an edit summary [120] about "Please don't restore content that failed verification or use poor source such as a blog. See https://www.caferacervape.com/blogs/news/a-brief-history-of-pod-mods-and-open-system-low-wattage-devices" However that source wasn't being used in this article, so I fail to see the relevance of mentioning it. Nor is a misleading note in an edit summary an acceptable substitute for discussion via a talk: page.
I half expected QuackGuru to take their usual line that "all sources must meet WP:MEDRS". Except that here [121] at Construction of electronic cigarettes they're happy to reference The Verge [122] and here [123] at Juul they're adding links to the SF Chronicle [124]. Maybe they think that it's OK if these ELs are inlined, rather than presented as citations? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have undone the redirect. If anybody feels this article should not exist, please to take it to WP:AfD for a proper discussion. @QuackGuru: I explicitly draw your attention to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#QuackGuru Warned. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • And now of course, a personalised warning, and some WP:CANVASSing in another WP:FORUM, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Pod_mod, but still no discussion. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:32, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • QuackGuru is now proceeding [125] to strip sections out of the article, by their usual process of denigrating sources. This is inappropriate: they show no issue with those sources, the claim "commercial source" is not enough to start section blanking, they have shown no error in those sources, they have shown no error in the content and it is against WP:PRESERVE to act in this way to dismantle an article with no effort made to find other sources. We are still awaiting any response from them here at ANI. These edits are disruptive, and they are disruptive in the way for which an explicit DS has been in place on QuackGuru themself for some years. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • And now pejorative comments like this, "please stop restoring original research". But there was no such restoration. This is just throwing phrases into the edit log and hoping that some mud sticks. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I got a failed verification tag from QG for something that I thought to be uncontroversial. Not sure what is going on but it seems QG is holding this article to a higher standard than others. I added a section to the talk page to discuss and hopefully he responds. spryde talk 18:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's my impression that QuackGuru is very frequently concerned that anything short of plagiarism might not be true enough to the cited source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • QuackGuru seems either unable or unwilling to communicate with other editors. They will adopt some particular idea, then defend it to the death and happily edit-war to do so, but simply will not express to others what it is beforehand, thus avoiding a whole lot of argument. I cannot understand why this is, but it does make editing around them particularly difficult. They seem to go out of their way to post half-truths to talk: pages: something which can't be said to be definitively wrong afterwards, but is especially unclear and misleading at the time. So when complaining of a source, they refer to it by a URL that isn't even used in the article, rather than pointing to its use in that article. They complain "don't restore OR" when nothing has been either deleted or restored. They will insist that all sources meet MEDRS, even for simple matters of commercial business (but are happy to use non-MEDRS sources themselves). They remove content as "not relevant" even though it is highly relevant to the broader context of understanding the article, just because it doesn't contain a specific easily-matched word (I've written AI reasoners which suffered much the same problem). And throughout all of this, other editors are simply wrong: there is no room for debate or opinion, it's QuackGuru's version or nothing. That is not how we operate. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, sorry QuackGuru, but that is not an obvious verification failure and you have failed to state what particular arcana is offending you. This is a collaborative project involving other editors and if you are going to oppose other editors over minutiae such as that, it is incumbent upon you to at least explain the issue.
Similarly, "they do not prodcue smoke" when tagging "Pod mods are portable devices that people use to smoke" as OR. Well, sorry QuackGuru but this issmoke; smoke by its technical broad definition includes pretty much any particulate aerosol produced by heat and that includes pyrolysis rather than combustion, and e-cigarettes et al certainly perform pyrolysis. Also modern language has yet to catch up fully with its terminology and possibly "smoking" may not be the best verb to apply here, but in no way is this WP:OR. It is simply another pejorative use of terminology by you to tag it as such, as an inevitable waypoint towards its removal. This is sheer sophistry on your part, to a level where it's deliberate and it's disruptive. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy Dingley: technically the content did fail verification since AFAICT, no where does the source say "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes", it only suggested one possible shape (and possibly size). But I'm not sure that tagging it FV was the best way to handle it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not a problem of content, it's a problem of behaviour: that's why it's at ANI.
Far better editing by QuackGuru would be to list any problems on the article talk page, to make specific statements about what is wrong with them, then to put forward intended solutions: a change of wording, a need for a better source, even the need to remove a section. There might not even be much need for discussion: maybe some of these problems and remedies would become so self-evident that all would be in immediate agreement (there seems to be zero evidence of a POV disagreement). But they are doing none of that. Instead we see unexplained changes made directly to the article. We see threats [126] to delete the article again as "unsourced", when this is a clearly untrue and hyperbolic statement to make. QuackGuru's editing style makes collaboration impossible: in a context where reversions are restricted (and they've made that sanction threat clear enough, even though it's not even clear it applies) their technique is to "capture the high ground first". Anyone disagreeing with QuackGuru will be described as edit-warring and instantly reverted. The changes they're making are unexplained and unjustified (even if correct, or at least their underlying reason needing to be addressed) and they're making the change first, then being forced to provide some sort of justification afterwards. This makes it very difficult for another editor to provide a different remedy to the same (agreed) problem.
Consider the case of the physical resemblance to USB sticks: this is a most trivial issue. Yes, there may be some minor inaccuracy in there and it might need to be fixed by some very minor copyediting on non-contentious wording. But instead QuackGuru is attacking the sources, slapping on a "failed verification" tag, advocating deleting the entire article because "100% fails verification". An editor trying to fix the descriptive wording problem then has to fight uphill, justifying their changes in terms of dire actions like "removing an {{OR}} tag from an article subject to MEDRS", "Re-introducing content that failed verification", "Using sources that do not meet MEDRS". This is to skew the entire editing process unfairly in one editor's favour! They might as well start asking, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of Quora?"
This is a behavioural problem (and they still refuse to engage here), it's disruptive, it's a severe form of WP:OWN and it needs to stop or be stopped. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:55, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy Dingley, except that you explicitly said
Quick example: Tagging the text, "Pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes and some resemble USB devices." as "fails verification " See "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive,,," Obvious FV content." from a source which contains the literal text, "The palm-sized device resembles a USB flash drive".
You cannot have it both ways. You made a big deal over the fact that the content does not fail verification because the source explicitly mentions it resembles a USB flash drive. But you completely neglected to mention that in fact the source only says that. It does not support the claim "pod mods come in varying shapes and sizes". Therefore as I said, the failed verification tag was technically correct, regardless whether or not it was the best way to handle it. (And I've already said it wasn't.)
I would note that the reason I realised this is because I nearly faulted QuackGuru on my talk page for them adding a failed verification tag when it wasn't justified since I WP:AGF that you were correct. Thankfully this didn't happen since I double checked myself before leaving my comment.
If you want us to focus on the problems with QuackGuru's editing you need to avoid making misleading claims. From my experience a good way to ensure any complaints you have at AN//I get ignored is by ensuring that we are pointlessly arguing over what the person complaining about said because they are careless or misleading in what they say. As I've said, it seems to me QuackGuru's editing does have problems, so I have no idea why you insist on bringing up stuff that detracts from that point.
Nil Einne (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has never been about the accuracy of the article complaints here, so much as the appropriate remedies for how to fix them. The text in the article was over-specific for what the source literally stated. If an editor sees that as a problem, then there are quick, easy fixes to that such as either rewording to only match what can literally be supported (one observed device resembles such a device) or else (as appears likely to be the case) noting that resembling USB devices seems to be an ongoing theme across the market and finding additional broader sources to support that broader claim. But shouting "FAILS VERIFICATION!!" from the rooftops and demanding the article is deleted as a consequence is an over-reaction. A disruptive over-reaction. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:48, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a straightforward example of disruptive tag-bombing: [127]
"...however the health risks are currently undetermined as they are new productions." {{CN}}
"...the health risks of these are also unknown and not well-studied." {{CN}}
Two tags of those added, where a high school philosophy freshman should be able to spot the fallacy.
If the text read, "the risks have been quantified", then that would be a WP:biomedical claim rightly needing WP:MEDRS. But it isn't, it's the opposite of that. It falls under WP:BLUESKY. They are new (this is unchallenged, and anyway met by RS elsewhere) and there are no known studies. If an especially pedantic editor wanted to qualify the wording of the statement (at the cost of losing clarity as an encyclopedia) then they could reword as "No studies are known at present (2019) to the authors of this WP article", which would be pointless yet justifiable. But to demand citations is ridiculous: "New things are unknown" is not merely uncited, it is unciteable, and that is a matter of classical logic, not medical quackery. To then take that as an excuse for deletion (read the edit summary added) is disruptive above all else. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Without wanting to express any strong views about Quack's overall editing, I request that, if any decisions need to be made, you all please kindly limit the number of RFCs involved. A couple of months ago, QuackGuru had ten (10!) separate RFCs about e-cigs underway at one time. As some of you know, I've followed the RFC advice pages for years and years, and I cannot recall a single instance in which another editor had even half that many content RFCs underway at one time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed that this is WP:OWN behauvior, and QuackGuru has staggering 2,449 edits in e-cigarette according to Xtools edit count. Not everything related to e-cigs should be vetted by one person. --Pudeo (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • My impression which seems to be supported by WP:AfD, WP:ATD-R and Wikipedia:Merging is that it's not always necessary to AfD something where merging or redirection while keeping the old article is the desired outcome even if these are possible outcomes of an AfD. If it's expected to be uncontentious, no discussion may be needed. It may also be acceptable to rely on other forms of discussion like RfCs. This is in part because merging or redirecting (while keeping the article) are explicitly not a form of deletion as no admin action is needed and the edit history is still there. These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. However it's recognised that many editors will not be aware of this, so care needs to be taken and sometimes AfD may be better. Note that this is explicitly not an endorsement of QuackGuru's actions. If you've found a hoax, it needs to be deleted so you should use some deletion process. It's harmful to simply redirect or merge a hoax as you're running the risk someone will revert to the hoax either intentionally or accidentally. But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact the info was merged anyway. QuackGuru's other actions here also seem concerning. Nil Einne (talk) 05:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's been pointed out to be my QuackGuru they didn't merge content so I've struck that portion of my comment above. Instead I will say "But I agree with others it doesn't seem this is a hoax, based on the sources and the fact that the info or very similar info already existed in another article they redirect to. It possible that some of the content in the original article failed verification and this needed to be dealt with, but it's clear that the article itself and the concept it dealt with was not a hoax. To reiterate what I said, if it was a hoax it needed to be deleted outright not simply redirected." Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • " These actions can be reverted by anyone like with normal editing processes. "
No, they can't be "reverted by anyone". It needs a particularly thick-skinned editor to disagree with QuackGuru. Their immediate reaction is to place a dire warning box on the editor's talk: page, threatening sanctions (despite the fact that ArbCom's ruling behind such sanctions was directed at QuackGuru). Then they fire up threads in the walled garden of the medical project, demanding the use of sources to MEDRS, just to say what year a commercial product was launched or whether it's the shape of a USB stick. And they will still not join the debate here at ANI, a thread specifically about their behaviour. This is QuackGuru going out of their way to place barriers in front of other editors, and that's usually an effective strategy to imposing their single viewpoint onto articles. This has nothing about article quality or verifiable standards, it's about refusing to cooperate. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, you're saying that "dire warning box" is too frightening? --CaltonTalk 08:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've always said that. It's completely unfit for purpose. It threatens other editors, it's unclear as to what it means, it's unclear as to how other editors ought to respond to it or should change their editing. It's used by a handful of established editors in order to intimidate others, and it's often highly effective against blameless new editors (read some of the Teahouse reactions to being hit with it).
Worst of all is its lack of clarity. It doesn't link to any good explanation of what "Discretionary Sanctions" are and what they mean for ongoing editing. The justification for them (i.e. the source ArbCom case) is hidden and mostly irrelevant to the current situation. These DS boxes are mostly used by two editors: one who favours a DS box linking to an ArbCom case that was rescinded or else (in this case) a case where the editor pasting the warning box was one of those being admonished by ArbCom.
So yes, this is just a scary stick to try and frighten other editors with. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:02, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, that has nothing to do with my point which is that there has never been any policy or guideline requiring that redirects and merges must go through AfD. Nor my point that redirects and merges are explicitly not a form of deletion and can technically be reverted by anyone (given the limits of page protection, edit filters, and editor blocks). Note I also said that QuackGuru's actions were wrong here but that doesn't change the general point I made which you challenged. QuackGuru should be called out for their problematic editing. What you've alleged of their behaviour may be a problem, but failing to use AfDs for merges or redirects it not itself a problem unless the conditions when they did so is a problem. Likewise, if QuackGuru prevents people reverting when they should and can that's a problem, but that doesn't change the way merges and redirects operate. That said, I'm not sure that QuackGuru is even putting barriers in place for reversion. Giving a discretionary sanctions notice to someone who had not been notified seems fair enough. I'd note an editor does not need to be "thick-skinned", they just need to properly understand the notice or the discretionary sanctions process in general to know that such notices are irrelevant to whether or not they can revert if justified and of course that QuackGuru's actions would also be covered under the discretionary sanctions regime if their actions are. Not to mention skin thickness does not matter if the editor has received a notice within the past year meaning they cannot receive another one. Nil Einne (talk) 13:18, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've no objection to the use of either AfD or talk: page discussion, or anything similar, but there needs to be opportunity for discussion by some means, and QuackGuru is doing their best to avoid it at all. Their actions are instant, so that WP:FAIT applies, and they're hedging even the smallest issue around with the biggest obstacles of MEDRS etc that they can.
Juul is pretty obviously investing in high quality design to make an attractive product, more than a merely functional one. It does have resemblances to a USB stick, in both size and shaping. The amount of arguing against this and the sources involved, and the implication that the article needs to be deleted as a result, are out of all proportion to the underlying issue. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nil Einne, the discretionary sanctions notices are scary for most people – perhaps for almost everyone except the few editors who like to spam them around at every opportunity. We've tried to clarify the wording – I was involved in the effort to specify that this situation exists because of other editors, and doesn't say anything about your own contributions – but they are still perceived by the recipients as direct and immediate threats. I have been wondering whether it would make sense to ban their delivery by people who are in disputes. In the current free-for-all situation, an editor who is edit warring can drop that notice on your talk page. In that situation, it is no wonder that people think the underlying message is "Let me own this article, or I'll get you blocked". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Have to disagree. For new editors, yes I agree they are often scary and confusing. For anyone familiar with the regime, they are generally not scary. For editors who aren't new but are also less familiar with the discretionary sanctions regime IMO it varies. I have said before that IMO it's best if an editor involved in a dispute with another editor, or who simply often disagrees with the other editor doesn't hand them out. Instead an uninvolved editor or even better someone friendly with the editor should hand them out. But I also feel that any ban on people who may hand them out would carry a reasonable risk of making the regime less effective. I myself have handed them out on a few occasions, mostly when I see someone at one of the ANs who is editing the area and where I feel there is a chance the regime may be useful. I admit this may not be ideal, but I generally avoid simultaneously criticising the editor a lot or getting involved in any dispute. Thinking more of something I said above, I wonder if it may be helpful to add something to the template emphasising they apply to all editors including the one handing out the notice if they are involved in the topic area. But this is perhaps getting too far off topic. I stand by my claim that you do not have to be a thick skinned editor to be largely unaffected by the possibility of notices. For example anyone familiar with the regime or anyone who has already received a notice and some other editors. This is particularly significant here since RoySmith and Andy Dingley themselves seem to be 2 of the major editors involved in the article and I do not believe either of them should be affected by receiving a discretionary sanctions notice. The creator User talk:Sydneystudent123456 doesn't seem to have received a notice either [128]Nil Einne (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible true that "anyone familiar with the regime" will be unaffected. However, that restriction basically excludes 99% of registered editors. In my experience, it's really hard for long-time editors like us to even imagine what our system looks like to people who aren't us. For example: Less than 10% of registered editors (all accounts, ever, specifically at this wiki) are autoconfirmed. The median number of undeleted edits for registered accounts is zero. Think about what that means for our assumptions about what "most" editors do or think or feel. We are not like most editors. I might receive these notices with the realization that another editor is trying to escalate a dispute. The median editor receives them with as little nonchalance as they would receive notice of a dispute from their nation's tax agency. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well I never disputed that discussion should be allowed. My point was and remains that we should not conflated merging and redirection with deletion, and also that other processes can be used instead of AfD for that discussion. I felt this was important since the initial comment seem to come close to suggesting the opposite. I don't really see a point to argue content issues like what Juul makes and USB sticks on this page and was never suggesting we do so. My point with that was that the content did fail verification. As I said, I don't think adding a failed verification tag was the right way to handle that but I stand by my view it's very confusing to imply the content did not fail verification when it did fail verification (even if some part of the content was verified by the source). Nil Einne (talk) 16:53, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, still no response from @QuackGuru: and the WP:OWN continues on the article(s). Per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#QuackGuru_Warned, is it time to escalate to WP:AE? The edits themselves might be debatable as a content issue, but the refusal to discuss is disruptive. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • My original post a couple of days ago got lost in an edit conflict. It may be time to escalate this to WP:AE if you think that helps resolve this issue.
    • After I read this comment I decided to make a quick post here.
    • I am discussing the issues on the talk page, but this is a new article and there are very few editors watching the article. The edits themselves can be considered a content issue. I made a bold edit to redirect it because the Construction of electronic cigarettes article discusses the different types of devices and there was a lot of misinformation about the pod mods in the new article. There is new content about pod mods in the Construction of electronic cigarettes that is 100% sourced. See Construction of electronic cigarettes#Pod mods. I wrote the content myself and I did not copy content from any other article. Having a splinter article seems more like a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. QuackGuru (talk) 18:21, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]


I've had similar problems with Quackguru, and I haven't managed to discuss most of them them productively: see this discussion, and much of my talk page. Aside from my own ignorance and mistakes (advice welcome), there are a few recurrent sources of conflict, which it would be good to have resolved.
On merging, redirection, and deletion, I'd like to raise what I see as obfuscation of article and talk histories (example, original article) and, more trivially, QG's own draft space (for instance, pages titled with totally unrelated word, or an IPA schwa character). QG's manual archiving of talk page discussions, which matches the clear-desk ethos of QG's talk page, can be inconvenient to part-time and intermittent editors.
Draft-replacing content is fast, but it feels a bit like driving a flail tank through a community vinyard to till it.
I really don't like it when QuackGuru privately writes a parallel article in the draftspace, then overwrites the multieditor article. It is especially frustrating when QG has, while writing the draft, been asking other editors to fix problems identified by QG in the article (or delete or redirect the article), without telling them of the any plan to replace their work with the draft. If editor efforts are in competition, anyone who spends less time editing than QG, or edits more slowly, is at a disadvantage.
QG sometimes uses language I find needlessly threatening (prod example). I have, in the past, overreacted to QG's warnings (though not that one). I've learned that the best response to threats of formal complaints is to urge QG to follow through with them. QG often repeatedly raises issues with my editing. When the issues are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or when I have acknowledged faults, apologized, and fixed, or when the forum is one I only come across by chance, this feels like mudslinging (example).
I strongly support inline tagging, but I often find QG's tags trivial (some phrasing and page number requests) or incomprehensible (many fv tags). Quackguru seems to mostly think that every sentence must have exactly one source at the end of it. It is also difficult to steer between Scylla and Charybdis with closeness to sources; QG opposes both excessively close paraphrases as copyvio and excessively loose ones as failed-verification. This leads to passages in the first style below:

Anon was born in the 19th century[1]. She was born in Nowheretown[2]. Her parents worked as cobblers[3]. Her mother was named named Anan[3]. Her father was named Anen[4]. Anon attended Nowheretown School[4]. She studied basketmaking in her first two years at Nowheretown School[4]. She also studied applied agrostology in her last year at Nowheretown School[5]. In 1882, the Nowheretown Post described her as a "elderly lady".[6] In 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology said that she was well-known to for her "application of agrostology to basketmaking"[7]. She died in 1882[8]. Her son gave the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum her collections[7]. Her collections included herbarium specimens and furniture[7].

Anon was born in Nowheretown[1] in the 1880s[1] to two cobblers[3] named Anan[3] and Anen[4]. At Nowheretown School, she studied first basketmaking[4], then applied agrostology[5]. In later life,[6] she became well-known for her application of agrostology to basketmaking[7][8]. When she died at an advanced age in 1882, the Journal of Applied Agrostology published an obituary praising her work. Her herbarium specimens and furniture were donated to the Nowheretown Botanic Gardens and Handicrafts Museum[7].
Example obviously made up, to avoid using a controversial topic. I'll also give a real style example; readers may also wish to see if they can spot the two paragraphs of QG's style in Nicotine marketing. A few examples of citation disagreements, all from one page:
QuackGuru has argued that that all sources must include wording matching the article title. This severely constrains editor judgment in determining the article scope and providing context (example). Likewise constraining is Quackguru's view that an image cannot be included in an article unless a source says that it illustrates the article topic (one "humorous" example).
Because we have a history of conflict, I probably don't see QG's best side; we all tend to give more consideration to those we respect, an exacerbating feedback. The next two paragraphs may therefore be unduly harsh.
I rarely get the sense that QG is intellectually engaged in a content discussion, and discussions with QG tend go nowhere via long strings of characters. I often find QG's posts unclear, and it takes several exchanges to extract a meaning I'd expect to get in two sentences. QG often does not answer direct questions, and reiterates the same points or ones I find logically unconnected, until I've wondered if my own posts are even being read. This communications burden often puts off other editors who would otherwise engage on topics of interest to QuackGuru (example). I think a majority of my talk page posts have been made in response to QG; I never came in contact with QG for the first decade or so of my editing.
Obviously I disagree with some of QuackGuru's interpretations of rules, and formal guidance on these issues might help reduce conflict. However, more generally, I feel that QuackGuru tends to focus overmuch on using rules to control article content, rather than on understanding and improving content. I'm therefore not sure that providing more rules would help much (especially since combativeness tends, even with the best will in the world, to be infectious). I'm not sure what would help, though QuackGuru has some views. HLHJ (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Edited in response to User talk:HLHJ#Allegations without supporting evidence. HLHJ (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This very much matches my experience of dealing with QuackGuru. They seem to be more interested in content as a sequence of matching text strings and they have no interest in or understanding of any meaning behind that. They are also persistently either unwilling or incapable of communicating with other editors to any normal level: they see interaction as a series of barriers and obstacles, not as an opprtunity to share information. The "I would have commented to this ANI thread about me days ago, but there was an edit conflict" claim is simply not credible. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I do think that QuackGuru is interested in the meaning of content, as QG edits on specific topics of interest, with an identifiable point of view on those topics (which I do not consider unacceptable, or avoidable). I find I can often predict which statements QG will tag and remove, and if and how QG is likely to alter statements, but I find it harder to predict what objections QG will make to the statements. I haven't gotten the impression that QG is very interested in teaching me or learning from me, which I would be OK with if we were not in conflict. I'm not very good at social interactions myself, and I have sympathy with editors who want to minimize the social side of editing; there are unobjectionable ways of doing this. HLHJ (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well I am out. I normally don't edit controversial things and I try to avoid WP:MEDRS sections of articles as I don't feel comfortable judging if sources are reliable enough. I still think this is a valid article separate from e-cigs as there are a few articles on Google Scholar from JAMA and NEJM which focus on Pod Mods in general.There are also a handful of articles in mainstream sources that also focus on the category rather than a specific brand. That makes it pass WP:GNG in my eyes but apparently not in others. spryde talk 11:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've stayed away from this discussion for a few days since I felt I'd said enough and it was better to let others comment. Since it still doesn't seem to have achieved a clear resolution and there are suggestions for AE I'll just make a few final comments.

One, I think QuackGuru's refusal to engage in this ANI is concerning. While sometimes when it's without merit it's fair enough to just let others deal with an ANI on your behaviour, and it's easy to harm yourself with poorly considered posts at ANI; IMO there were enough serious concerns here to warrant at least some comment. It's clear QuackGuru was paying attention since they quickly approached editors who had commented when they had concerns (me and from the sounds of it HLJH).

Two, I'm also concerned there has been no real engagement with QuackGuru on Talk:Pod mods over article content issues. Whatever concerns there over QuackGuru's conduct, I do not believe they warrant ignoring their attempts at engagement, especially since one of the concerns was their refusal to discuss their concerns over article content. To be fair (paraphrasing here) 'should I delete half the article content as unsourced' is not something that's easy to engage with. But when QuackGuru raises specific concerns over specific text failing verification (or whatever), I think at least some action should be expected even if it's just a quick comment 'no you're wrong, the source says XYZ' or minor rewording to fix the problem or finding a new source or whatever.

Three, and bear in mind I have basically no experience with AE and I'm not an admin, I feel if an AE case is raised it would be best to concentrate on clear cut examples. For example whatever problems there may be with posting discretionary sanctions notices unless these are clearly inappropriate (user is already away, user never edited the area) I have doubts they'd get much heed. Likewise saying something did not fail verification because it mentions USB-likeness when it didn't mention the other stuff may not be a great example. Either say that even if it technically failed verification blindly tagging it along with a whole load of other content was not the best way to handle it. Or find refs which do support this content add them and if QuackGuru continues to complain because they don't like 2 sources then maybe you have an example. (I think the former already happened but it's still IMO an example of what happened early in this case that would best be avoided at AE.)

Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • No-one is disputing that it needs work – except perhaps QuackGuru, who thinks that such work is impossible and the whole lot needs to be deleted.
Are they notable? Well, my first comment on the talk: page was to ask just that. QuackGuru thinks they're distinct, and has created a CFORK on that basis. I'm still unconvinced (I am too busy to do any editing for the next few weeks), but if they are (and I think they are) it's because the Juul is not merely another e-cigarette. Whether there are any pod mods other than Juul is a separate question. But it seems (from what little I've had time to read) that the difference with them is nothing to do with replaceable coils and it's actually about the chemistry of the fluid used. Juul is using nicotine salts, which appear to have significantly different biological effects. If pod mods are really different from other e-cigs, it's this different chemistry which makes it. However QuackGuru has already stripped the redlinks and decided that it's "just not notable".
They are impossible to work with. They do not engage with others, they do not engage with serious efforts to try and answer specific issues, they just keep re-posting "Can I delete all this yet?". They don't need permission to do so in the first place: they need to justify it. But asking over and over again is a way to get this "permission" by attrition and omission. If they simply persist long enough, more and more editors will say "Well I am out." and when it goes quiet, they can delete the article "because no one complained beforehand". That is not acceptable editing: we have to collaborate here, and none of us get to simply ignore the others. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who is a domain expert in certain topic areas who, like QuackGuru, has a massive edit count in those articles and been involved in numerous content disputes, I have also had WP:OWN thrown at me in content disputes by other involved editors. It is both really disingenuous and a very clear case of fundamental attribution error (i.e., a cognitive bias) to ascribe another editor's reversion of your edits and those of others who are a party in the dispute as WP:OWN without a clear statement of ownership. An editor is violating WP:OWN if the they make a statement of ownership and/or take action to prevent all others from modifying an article so as to effectively retain an exclusive right to edit an article, decide what content it shows, or otherwise dictate what an article states (that's also what ownership of literally anything entails). If you don't have clear evidence of an editor making such a statement or rolling back everyone's edits to an article, do not cite that policy. It is pointlessly inflammatory and I've personally found it annoying to be on the receiving end of that. Frankly, I don't know what experienced Wikipedian would actually believe that they have, or could possibly retain for any length of time, an exclusive right to anything on Wikipedia (the only exception would be the copyright to any CC-BY-SA-3.0-licensed article text that an editor contributes, as that is an exclusive right). Seppi333 (Insert ) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Read the other page discussions. There's little edit-warring in mainspace, because they've already slapped warning dialogs around to threaten some unspecific editing restriction. But on the talk: discussions, we keep looping through the same sequence. "There is a minor wording issue over a very minor topic, where the source does not use those literal words" – 'OK, what change is needed? Just do it' – "This source FAILS VERIFICATION so I've removed it altogether." – 'Don't do that. It means the content doesn't match, not that the source is bad' – "I'm going to delete the whole article again" – 'Why are you ignoring the ANI thread?'.
This is OWN, even if not in mainspace. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking over my last post, and I have an example of QG responding to new editors. QG reverted the mostly-easily-salvagable edits, but spontaneously posted on the talk page with some explanation of why. This suggests to me that QG is willing to teach newcomers, but is not always using effective methods (in this case, the new editors did not engage). Sometimes QG has spent far longer getting me to fix problems than it would have taken for QG to fix them and post saying "You should have done this" (example); I think this is partly communications difficulties.
QuackGuru often adds very high densities of inline tags to content I've written, and insists that I fix the content. Some of the reasons behind the inline tags are trivial fixes, things you'd think would be easier to fix than to tag, but most of the problems QG points out are not obvious, and I find many debatable. Any fix I attempt is usually swiftly re-tagged, accompanied by talkpage posts that my changes have made the content even worse, and it would be best to delete the lot and start again. When I add templates criticizing content in articles in which QG takes an interest, QG has reverted the addition (invariably, as far as I can recall). QuackGuru occasionally reverts edits of mine that QG requested via inline tags (for instance, the addition of a large number of verifying quotes, accompanied by translations from the French and German, which took me some hours of editing time: 1, 2, 3).
I don't think this behaviour motivated by bad faith. QuackGuru believes that I lack the WP:CIR to edit, so I think the motive is to improve the content by protecting it from me, keeping me busy with makework until I move to another content area. This is logical and effective, in the short term. Taking the long-term consequences into account, though, it also turns editors wanting to work in this area into opponents instead of collaborators.
For me, this discussion is therefore not primarily about the podmod article (I've been uninvolved with it, apart from a point-of-information talkpage post in answer to a question), or any one article.
I'm a bit uncomfortable addressing all this in the third person. QuackGuru, I know you are reading, and I'm not intending to ignore you, slight you, or speak behind your back. I'd be happy to discuss the roots of our editing conflicts with you in another forum, including a more private one. HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Without recommending a remedy, I would like to say that QG has severe OWNership issues with regard to e-cigarettes. I mean, he truly believes he owns the subject and no one else should be allowed to edit there. I tried to get involved with the coverage about recent illnesses and deaths from vaping, but was totally stonewalled and eventually gave up. His style includes spinning off multiple sub-articles, so that he can put disputed content into all of them and no one can keep up. His articles are so technical and detailed, and so focused on single individual studies (quite the opposite of how MEDRS is supposed to work), that there is literally no way for a reader to gain an overall understanding of the subject. I tried for several weeks to make a few of the articles more readable; no luck. I tried to get him to tone down his promotion of the theory that the recent illnesses and deaths are caused by Vitamin E acetate; no luck. The investigating agencies are saying over and over that they don’t know the cause and there are many different histories of what the affected people used in vaping, but he is convinced acetate is the issue and his articles convey that. I know he is a very prolific editor, but IMO what he produces is non-neutral and unreadable, and his attitude is the very opposite of the collaboration that Wikipedia is supposed to be about. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please provide evidence of spinning off multiple sub-articles, so that I can put disputed content into all of them and no one can keep up. The only recent spin off was "2019 United States outbreak of lung illness linked to vaping products". It is way too long to merge. There is a summary in the safety article. I also started "Vaping-associated pulmonary injury" after discussing it with WikiProject Medicine.
    • You stated "I tried for several weeks to make a few of the articles more readable; no luck." Can you provide diffs where you tried to make them more readable?
    • See "The CDC stated that the cases have not been linked to one product or substance, saying "Most patients have reported a history of using e-cigarette products containing THC. Many patients have reported using THC and nicotine. Some have reported the use of e-cigarette products containing only nicotine."[5] Many of the samples tested by the states or by the US Food and Drug Administration (US FDA) as part of the 2019 investigation have been identified as vaping products containing tetrahydrocannabinol (or THC, a psychoactive component of the cannabis plant).[8] Most of those samples with THC tested also contained significant amounts of Vitamin E acetate.[8]"
    • The CDC and the US FDA have both reported similar things. I included content from both of them. QuackGuru (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I’m not inclined to spend much additional time over this, but if you insist: Here, on September 7, was where I updated the article and put the CDC warning into the lead. This was the “Safety of electronic cigarettes” article (before you spun off the separate article about recent illnesses), so a CDC warning about safety seemed like the single most important thing to have in the lead. But you immediately removed it,[129] falsely citing “failed verification” when in fact it was well cited. Correction: your reason for removing it from the "safety" article was that it was mentioned in two other articles. So that means it can't be in the "safety" article where it is clearly relevant? That's an example of how you use (and misuse) subarticles.
For some reason you strongly objected to putting any warning into the "safety article" lead, leaving the lead full of years-old studies indicating that vaping could be relatively harmless or even beneficial. As recently as September 11 the lead of the safety article still didn’t mention the outbreak of disease and death. In fact it said (based on a 2016 report) that the risk of serious adverse effects was low, while it rambled on about possible battery explosions. I remember arguing with you about the necessity of putting the warning in the lead of that and several related articles; that argument is here. Finally on September 11 I was able to get a sentence about the outbreak (without mentioning the CDC warning) in the Safety article lead.[130]
Now that I have researched this, at your request, I see that this issue wasn’t just with me and it wasn't just one article. Doc James inserted the CDC warning into the lead of the main Electronic cigarette article three times on September 7, and you removed it three times, [131] prompting him to issue a warning on your talk page.[132] In other words, you kept insisting the warning couldn’t be in the lead of any article, even though that was only your own opinion, vs. well supported arguments to include it from two other people. Like I said, you don’t believe in collaboration or consensus; you believe you OWN these articles. That is not how Wikipedia works. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:22, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You added on September 7, a CDC warning. This was added to the Safety of electronic cigarettes article before I created a spin-off. I removed it, along with rewriting other content, correctly citing "failed verification" for "WDHS2019". Both citations did not verify the same claim for "In 2019 hundreds of cases of severe lung disease were reported among users of e-cigarettes." The US-centric view for "recommending against the use of e-cigarettes because of their association with severe respiratory disease." was not a neutral summary for the lede. It was replaced with neutral content. See Safety of electronic cigarettes: "In 2019, an outbreak of severe lung illness across multiple states in the US has been linked to the use of vaping products.[23]" Also see Electronic cigarettes: In 2019, an outbreak of severe lung illness across multiple states in the US was linked to vaping.[105] Adding a US-centric warning to the lede of "Safety of electronic cigarettes" or "Electronic cigarette" is not neutral. The outbreak is in the US only. More than one editor objected to including a US-centric warning. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive 31#US-centric. Simply stating the facts in the lede that there is an outbreak is far more neutral than including a US-centric warning. I did add the CDC warning to the Electronic cigarette.[133] It is still in the Electronic cigarette. See Electronic_cigarette#Positions_of_medical_organizations. I did add it to the lede of the Positions of medical organizations on electronic cigarettes article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Simply stating the facts in the lede that there is an outbreak is far more neutral than including a US-centric warning. And that's what I did, here, although apparently even that wasn't worded to your satisfaction and you reworded it. I'm done here, but my comments stand: you insist that everything at these articles, great or small, has to be done your way. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:09, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You added "In September 2019 the Center for Disease Control and Prevention reported an outbreak of severe lung disease in the US associated with the use of e-cigarette products.[16]" The CDC reported an outbreak in September 2019, but the outbreak started before September 2019. I fixed the inaccurate content. When did the outbreak start? "Cases involved in the outbreak of severe lung illness associated with vaping products were first identified in Illinois and Wisconsin in April 2019.[13]" I wrote accurate content without misleading or biased content. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See here. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Propose ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've largely stayed out of this, but I've slowly come to the conclusion that QuackGuru is a lost cause. We should just WP:CBAN him and stop this endless time sink.

I made an attempt to work with him. See the Talk:Pod mod#Failed verification content thread. He questioned whether Research reveals potential health risks in aerosolizing nicotine salts and metal toxins that are produced was verified by the cited reference. I decided to investigate.

My first task was to find a copy of the reference, and discovered that it existed on-line, so I updated the reference to include the URL, and some other minor reformatting while I was at it. This earned me a complaint 10 minutes later that, The citation was formatted but that does not solve the FV problem. I continued to read the cited source and concluded that QuackGuru was correct; it did indeed not verify the claim made in the article, which I stated on the talk page. Amazingly enough, his response to my agreeing with him was yet another salvo.

Somewhere in there, he dropped a Template:Ds/alert on my talk page. What purpose this served other than an attempt at intimidation, I can't imagine. I've got a pretty thick skin, but I imagine most new editors would be scared by this and disengage. Which I assume is exactly the intended result.

Irksome habits like continually blanking their talk page, while not forbidden, certainly does make it more difficult to interact with them.

Every interaction between him and other editors that I've observed over the past few days is aggressive and just attempts to bludgeon the enemy into submission rather than engage in a productive discussion with them. It is good that they insist on correctness and verification through reliable sources, but they take it to such an extreme that nobody can work with them. This makes them a net negative to the project.

I count 19 blocks, spanning 12 years, for QuackGuru already. It's hard to imagine that any additional attempts at behavior modification will be any more successful than the past ones. It's time to cut our losses. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

QuackGuru has been very productive in Wikiproject Medicine articles...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
QuackGuru has done good work over the years. I agree with a fair number of the concerns they raised at the pod mod article. Their redirect with the claim that it is a "hoax article" however is not accurate and I would advise them to be more careful with their words. Not sure I see the issue with this notice.[134] I had a personalized notice placed upon my talk page about the existence of DS with respect to gun related issues a few days ago.[135] I took it as a useful FYI. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:16, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Doc James. Clearly some concerns raised here are valid, but just as clearly some are overstated. The volume and quality of QuackGuru's work is impressive. I agree they need to improve their collaboration. But a ban is over the top. Cloudjpk (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose ban QuackGuru operates in Wikipedia's most controversial medical spaces. I perceive QuackGuru to be an advocate for the consumer, medical journals, and WP:MEDRS standards. Most commonly QuackGuru is in conflict with editors who advocate for or sympathize with the position in alignment with corporate industries well known for aggressive propaganda in favor of harmful health practices. In this case we are talking about nicotine use where a billion-dollar industry is selling a drug with health effects and which is lobbying globally to control the conversation. Everyone who edits the Wikipedia nicotine articles will be read by a billion people including all journalists, lobbyists, doctors, policy makers, and the lawyers in the related lawsuits. The money tied up here is obscene considering that advocacy for science in this space has no budget, and in large part is defended by QuackGuru with support of others. When Wikipedia is the target of hundreds of paid lobbyists I expect missteps and misunderstandings from any volunteer editor. I do not perceive the problem here to be QuackGuru, but rather, the center of the problem is the topic itself and the infinite funding available to pay people to endlessly argue the minutiae of the topic to the limits of the Wikipedia process. Most people who edit here are not lobbyists but propaganda is in the heads of everyone who thinks about this topic and extreme caution is a useful norm for this space. QuackGuru knows the wiki bureaucracy and runs discussions and editing discussions by wiki process. I expect content in this space to move slowly and be more cautious than in other articles where a billion dollars and national economies are not the stakes of what Wikipedia publishes and which politicians read when they are making laws. If anyone enters such controversial topics then they should expect bureaucracy, be forgiving, move slowly, and feel free to call on mediation processes such as seeking comment from WikiProjects such as WP:MED or any lightweight process such as WP:3O. I understand why anyone would be frustrated in such unusual articles but this is how extreme controversy works on wiki. The environment is crazy and everyone who enters it will have to abandon some humanity and become a bit of a robot and bureaucrat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose ban per Bluerasberry. It is regrettable that QG causes frustration but the topics are frustrating with conflicting interests colliding. I have not checked all relevant edits, but I have seen that QG is on the side of reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • And by implication, anyone who disagrees with him isn't? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He is on the side of the reliable sources that support his position, but resorts to all sorts of tricks to ignore or downplay those that don't! Johnbod (talk) 03:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose ban after reading the thread, the underlying issue is literally just a content dispute in a contentious topic area which has gotten out of hand. Content disputes in such subjects are not unexpected/infrequent and sometimes editors who are party to one − myself included − make errors in judgment. That is absolutely not a suitable justification for a site ban unless said error is particularly eggregious. Personally, I think everyone involved should just take a step back, take some time to cool off for a day or two, then come back to the table to discuss the issue and sort out the underlying problem. I don't think anyone who is a party to this dispute is currently acting in an appropriate manner for the purpose of dispute resolution; dispute resolution involves identifying underlying issues, correctly interpreting and applying relevant content policy, and trying to find common ground. In other words, take some time to cool off and make the effort to talk it out; do not neglect engaging in a discussion with all involved parties on a talk page or escalate further argument by making baseless inflammatory accusations pertaining to behavioral policies, applying unfaithful interpretations of content policy as justifications, or otherwise undermining the dispute resolution process. Seppi333 (Insert ) 05:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The basis for this complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect in good faith, per both deletion and redirection policies. If such an act is contested, it can be reverted and discussed and proceed to dispute resolution, just like any other content dispute. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. ~Swarm~ {sting} 23:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - No good reason given. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As other's have mentioned, the basis of the complaints were invalid, and the doubling down trying to get a site ban after the initial section didn't gain traction looks like battleground behavior that has no place in a DS topic. If RoySmith was actually a regular in the topic I'd suggest a WP:BOOMERANG in the form of either a topic ban or interaction ban for RoySmith to try to settle the topic down, so I'd at least suggest a decent sized WP:TROUT instead.
My understanding based on when I see QuackGuru's editing pop up here is that QuackGuru often acts through WP:STEWARDSHIP in e-cig topics, and those in content disputes with Quack are trying to portray that as WP:OWN here instead. If advocacy is still a problem in this subject that gets stewards acting terse while still engaging in discussion (which seems to be the case when you look at diffs or lack thereof vs. claims made at this ANI about Quack), the DS need to be enforced more stringently to the cut to the source of the disruption. I haven't seen anything presented here that indicates Quack is a true source of disruption in the topic (and I'd change my mind if I did), much less the entire project. This ANI reads as an attempt at a gotcha of a frustrated editor in order to win a content dispute though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: I fail to see a legitimate policy-based reason for this suggested sanction. Javert2113 (Siarad. ¤) 14:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Propose small measures applying to all parties

(originally part of ban discussion) QuackGuru is a bit of a Wikidragon, and does write large amounts of content. As BlueRaspberry points out, this is an area in which content is expected to move slowly, so QG's wish to make drastic changes causes more conflict. I do not see QuackGuru as always being on the side of the evidence: short example. However, I do not see this as sufficient reason to ban. I'd suggest the following remedies, all of which should apply to everyone in this topic area, not just QuackGuru:

  • the same standards should apply to one's own edits as one applies to the edits of others. Editors should avoid COI by not removing templates criticizing their own content, unless they have a good-faith belief that the problem has been fixed (not the belief that it never existed).
  • we should not template things that are easier to fix than to template.
  • fv tags may be hard to understand. Inline tags in this topic area should have a informative reason= parameter, and may be deleted if none is supplied by an editor aware of the need.
  • all edits in this controversial area should initially be made incrementally. Only after incremental addition of content fails should an RfC be used to add the content. An RFC should not be started before the matter and the RfC question have been discussed on the talk page.
  • any non-minor edits suggested by declared COI editors should seek talk page consensus before inclusion in the article.
  • long reverts, especially reverts of several weeks of complex good-faith edits by multiple editors, should be clearly labeled as "reversion to version of [timestamp]". Discussion should not be avoided.
  • it is not OK to follow the letter of rules, but circumvent their spirit. Misuses of process, such as getting a consensus for deleting an article in order to replace it with a version one has already written, should not be undertaken.
  • in this controversial area, we should avoid doing things that curtail or hide talk discussions, such as needless discussion forking, manual archiving, and using WP:G7 to delete and immediately recreate pages.
  • DS notifications, formal or informal, should not be repeated more than once a year, or made in a way that implies personal criticism or threat. Generally, the matter should only be raised with the formal template.
  • per Wikipedia:Citation overkill, two or three citations may be used to support a single sentence. Per convention, different citations may be used to support different parts of the same sentence. Where it is simple, these citations should be separated so that it is obvious what section of the sentence they support (for instance, a citation at the end of each clause: Smith said X[1], and Jones said Y[2]). Where this would contort the sentence structure or otherwise impede readability, Template:Refn may be used to insert a note clarifying which fact comes from which source.
Is there anyone who feels that their editing would be seriously hindered by following these guidelines? HLHJ (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed editing restrictions short of a ban

I don't think a ban as justified at the moment, but having read this thread its clear that QG's approach to editing in this is not without problems. Accordingly I think restrictions should of a topic ban should be tried first - I'm thinking perhaps in the eCigs topic area:

  1. 1 revert restriction.
  2. A revert of anything that is not self-evidently vandalism or a personal attack must be explained on the relevant talk page.
  3. Prohibition on converting an article to a redirect. They may propose merging and/or redirecting on the talk page, and they may nominate for deletion.
  4. Prohibition on moving any page to or from draftspace. They may propose doing so on the talk page.
  5. No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page.
  6. No placing tags (including failed verification and citation needed) on an article without first either (a) rewording the content to match the source, and/or (b) attempting to find (alternative) sources that do verify the content. In all cases the actions must come with explanation that allows other editors to understand both what the problem is and the reason for it - including use of the reason= parameter. Thryduulf (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • support Andy Dingley (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose per reasons given in previous section by half a dozen editors, to restrict such a capable editor is not beneficial to anyone--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Being "capable" is not enough - you need to be able to work with others in a collaborative environment. Without restrictions QG is not, presently, able to do that per all the evidence in this and previous discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ive worked w/ QG on Vaping-associated pulmonary injury which is all over the news, there have been some 17 deaths(and cases here in the U.S. and Canada) we both worked together to form/create the best article with the current information available on this condition... that is being capable--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unable to support "No significant addition or removal of content without first getting consensus on the talk page." Not clear what "significant" means. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Doc James: instead of throwing out the whole thing over a minor detail, propose either a way to determine what "significant" means or propose an alternative. This isn't dissimilar to the attitude that's causing many of the problems in this topic area. Thryduulf (talk) 23:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • User:Thryduulf I have received death threats via twitter and requests that my university fire me for my editing of e-cig content. To say it mildly this is a controversial topic area with editors with financial conflicts attempting to suppress concerns (to be clear I am not making this claim about anyone involved in this discussion currently). Well QuackGuru and I do not always agree we are generally able to find something we can both live with. Of your suggestions which I have numbered I would support the 6th (but I would support it for all involved). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • That is horrible. I'm sorry you are both dealing with death threats and intimidation. It says something that anyone edits in this area voluntarily.
Thryduulf, are you thinking of some limit on the proportion of the article, or number of facts, changed in a given period? I said "incremental" above, which is not much more concrete than "non-significant"; I meant changes submitted to the article as they are written, and not en-masse. Belatedly, I think there might a problem with WP:FIXED here. Reverting excessively large undiscussed edits is an option, but then the article still turns into a series of RfCs about warring versions, rather than a collaboration. I'd prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles; the discussion is apt to be more substantive, and the end article better. It might get us a bit farther from arguing over sourcing rules, and towards assessing balance of evidence. Maybe we could try presenting an argument for both sides in discussion, reciprocally? Sadly, I've found myself spending more time on the less content-concerned discussions, like this one, simply because they are more antagonistic and thus clamour for attention. HLHJ (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you "prefer RfCs about individual concepts of content, not entire articles"? Is it because I proposed a draft and I gained consensus to replace the older versions with the expanded version? Read this comment: "there are so many problems with the main article that it is a bit shameful WP allows work like this to remain."[136] Editors were disappointed with the older version. User:Sunrise closed the RfC. See Talk:Heat-not-burn product/Archive_8#Older_versions_or_expanded_version. QuackGuru (talk) 04:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Doc James: I am not attempting to defend or downplay any of that behaviour from SPAs et al, it is indefensible, but none of that excuses the bad behaviour exhibited by QG. Proposal 6 (thanks for numbering them by the way, that is helpful) could indeed be applied to editors generally - and discretionary sanctions are authorised for the topic area. However I don't think that alone gets to the heart of the issues with QG's editing.
@HLHJ: I don't regard proportion of an article as a useful measure as it categorises rewriting two sentences of a one-paragraph stub is vastly more significant than rewriting two sentences of an article that is multiple pages long, yet the effect of the changes may be more significant on the latter (depending on the detail, obviously). Number of facts changed is a better measure, but again it depends on the detail - if you're updating figures to match the latest released version of statistics everyone agrees are relevant then that is really only one change despite many different facts being changed and in many circumstances wont be controversial. However changing just one fact by switching from one source to a different one could be very significant, especially if one or both are (allegedly) partisan. It really needs to be something like "does this materially change what is being said?" or "is the source used to verify what I'm adding/removing/changing controversial?" and if the answer is yes, then it's a significant change, and if the answer is no then it wont be in most circumstances.
@QuackGuru: RfCs only really work when the question being asked is focused and specific. This is almost always vastly easier to achieve when dealing with individual items of content than dealing with whole articles. The comment you quote is a good example of one that is unfocussed and woolly essentially to the point of being useless. Be specific - explain what the problem is, why its a problem, what would be better and why that would be better. Then do the same for the next problem. Thryduulf (talk) 09:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The HNB article was like a stub by my standard. There was little content in the lede and the writing was incoherent. My proposal was to expand every section of the article. HLHJ was still complaining about the article after I expanded it. The solution was to start specific RfCs to resolve the remaining disputes. There was a previous RfC that was malformed. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_7#RfC on solid tobacco heated using external heat sources. Those issues were unresolved. I eventually started RfCs to address the concerns. I left it up to the community to decide. See Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#IQOS_content and see other RfCs such as Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#Pyrolyse. QuackGuru (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose Agree with Ozzie10aaaa and Doc James. I also agree that QG has problem behavior. But this is not the solution. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:02, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. I personally don't want to see QG banned, and I think this is a reasonable stopgap measure. — Ched (talk) 10:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Doc James. I've had a fair bit of contact with QG. I won't deny QG can be a little stubborn and pedantic, but I've never had cause for a second to think he is biased. He genuinely has neutrality and the interests of the encyclopedia at heart and these proposed sanctions are an over-reaction. -- Begoon 10:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I too don't doubt QG's motives, but that doesn't mean his behaviour is not disruptive. Thryduulf (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honestly, I think banning QG from ecigs would be a net positive for him and the project. Of all the editors with whom I agree (and I do agree with almost everything he writes), he is the closest I have come to asking for a siteban. Guy(help!) 11:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - As I said above, the complaint is invalid. There is quite literally nothing wrong with this user performing a unilateral blank-and-redirect, per both deletion and redirection policies. As a matter of policy, and contrary to the OP's claims, it is not considered to be either disruptive or an inappropriate circumvention of deletion process. It should be treated like any other content dispute, not dragged to AN/I. Looking at the above section, this was already pointed out, and the OP seems to be ignoring it. ~Swarm~{sting} 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think I support this proposal but as I think the first person to point out redirection does not need an AFD and may not even need discussion (05:58, 27 September 2019), can't say I agree QuackGuru did nothing wrong. As me, DocJames and others have said, calling it a hoax was clearly wrong. Firstly while the article had problems, it was not a hoax. Regardless of the merits of the blank and redirect, you can't just go around using misleading summaries when doing so. It confuses the hell out of other editors and provides no understanding of why you did the blank and redirect. Frankly no edit summary would be better than the one they provided. QuackGuru was an experienced editor, so they should have recognised this was not a hoax and they should have not called it one. Second, if QuackGuru genuinely believed the article was a hoax, then simply blanking and deleting was not the solution. Perhaps blanking and deleting was okay as an interim measure, but they should have immediately moved to having the article deleted after that. We cannot allow hoax articles to hang around in main space lest people accidentally or intentionally revert to them, or copy their content. Nil Einne (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see my updated edit summary. QuackGuru (talk) 23:47, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Your second edit summary was better but still somewhat unclear. The fact that a blog is used or some of the content failed verification is not itself a reason to blank and redirect. AFAIK at least some of the content did match the citation. You seem to have a decent level of English, so I have no idea why you couldn't have just left an edit summary like "Blanking as most of the content appears to fail verification" if that was your opinion. Frankly though, if you had just left the second edit summary the first time around I think me and at least some others wouldn't care so much. Again, as an experienced editor you should not need someone bugging you on your talk page to tell you how utterly confusing your first edit summary was. Further (other than the updated summary) AFAIK you never provided an comment on your use of such an utterly confusing edit summary or at least you hadn't on the original ANI discussion despite having multiple days to do last I checked. And as I said elsewhere it's not like you were super busy doing something else, you were able to directly respond to people who posted to the ANI when you had issues with what they said. A simple "sorry I was wrong to call it a hoax, don't know what I was thinking" or whatever would have at least provided some clue you recognised the problem. Ultimately though, whatever you did do afterwards, my main point stands which is I disagree that you did nothing wrong since you did initially use that edit summary and it took someone asking on your talk page for any clarification. Nil Einne (talk) 10:50, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per DocJames. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Swarm, DocJames, and others. Discretionary sanctions are already in effect in the topic, and any restrictions through them should apply to all editors, not just one who actually seems to be following WP:FOC here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: But definitely would also strongly support a compromise in specifics with the issues presented by Doc James and those who feel similarly as I feel their concerns have merit. Waggie (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: per the good Doc James. Significance differs from person to person, and there's really nothing wrong with what QuackGuru did, as Swarm rightly notes. Javert2113 (Siarad. ¤) 21:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Thryduulf's proposal, largely with the same feeling as Guy. If "don't place tags without genuinely trying to WP:SOFIXIT first" is too complicated, then a full TBAN is an option. For context, I just had a long and frustrating chat at WT:MED (until I gave up, because life's too short to keep explaining simple facts to people who are very highly motivated to not listen). In this conversation, Quack was apparently able to look at images like this shield-shaped product and this long, skinny one and still desperately trying to convince everyone that "different sizes and shapes" was a hopelessly unverifiable claim that urgently needed to be removed from the article. I don't think that the inability to see what's plainly in front of your nose is either "nothing wrong" (to quote Javert2113's description) or what we need in an editor who gravitates to controversial subjects. I'm thinking about the intersection of WP:COMPETENCE, WP:THERAPY, and WP:BOGO: If you are unable or unwilling to admit that those products aren't all the same size and and shape, then I really don't think that the rest of the community should spend this many hours (for years and years and years – has anyone ever written a complete list of the many previous bans and restrictions?) to you overcome your limitations. I'm perfectly willing to take names for the list of volunteer mentors, though. If others really want to dedicate their wiki-lives to mediating these questions, then that's okay with me. "Y'all should just put up with his rigid thinking and obsessiveness and find ways to work around it. I'm gonna go do something easier and more fun" isn't what the project needs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per DocJames and BMK. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 11:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Swarm. Buffs (talk) 15:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No point. I assure you on the basis of extensive personal experience that you will never change QG's behaviour. No amount of handwringing or exhortation will have the slightest effect. Tbanning him will work; any other sanction is exactly the same as doing nothing. And Tban proposals relating to this editor never get any traction. QG does genuinely good work fending off advocates and SPAs. This makes him useful to MEDRS, and thus editors active in MEDRS appreciate him and show up to defend him against Tbans (although most of them will acknowledge that he does display some behavioural problems). I personally raised this with Arbcom in 2015 and they couldn't change him. Neither can AN/I. This is why we have QG --- one of Wikipedia's most often-sanctioned editors, and a person with massive control issues and extreme IDHT, running off the leash and hounding away editors who demonstrate considerably better judgement than he does. I still hope that maybe one day QG will do something so egregious that his MEDRS buddies can't save him, but it is not this day.—S MarshallT/C 02:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I use quality sources including MEDRS-compliant sources such as reviews.
    • You suggested others were IDHT about sources.[137] What about you? You repeatedly deleted a review and replaced it with popular press sources.[138][139]QuackGuru (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • The fact that you're answering with whataboutery is telling. If you believe there's a problem with my edits, please do open an AN/I on me. I've always welcomed community scrutiny.

        Listen, QG: you do use good sources, almost always. Specifically, you go through the good sources, you find a statistic, you cite the statistic extremely thoroughly, you attribute it carefully, and you insert it into the article next to other statistics about the same topic. This produces something that looks superficially like a paragraph of text, but isn't. A QG "paragraph" is in fact a bullet-point list of statistics that's been disguised by removing the bullets. And the paragraphs you remove -- the paragraphs other editors want to insert and you edit-war to prevent -- are the paragraphs that move beyond the premises that you love so much and onto thesis and conclusion. When editors want to do this you behave as if they want to violate NPOV, when in fact all they're trying to do is make an article that fucking well goes somewhere. And the IDHT in this is because I've told you all this before, and you ignore whatever I say because it's me saying it.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

        • You have not provided a single diff. But I provided diffs.[140][141] You supported this. The proposal made no sense. The entire e-cigarette aerosol article was deleted and replaced with some content from other articles. I started a real RfC. All those edits were undone. See the expanded new article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • It's absolutely true. I've provided no diffs. I said that you're one of Wikipedia's most sanctioned editors. Nobody who's got any business closing AN/I discussions will have got all the way down to here without checking that point, so diffs are needless. I've described your behaviour accurately, and that's easily checkable from the diffs provided by others. And I've given a recommendation to the closer, which is that there's no point giving you sanctions that fall short of a topic ban. Arbcom weren't able to rein you in, discretionary sanctions weren't able to rein you in, and in fact your disciplinary log is clear evidence that nothing short of a topic ban will make the slightest difference to your behaviour. And you're responding with diffs from four years ago that Arbcom have already seen and dealt with by way of a resounding yawn.—S MarshallT/C 13:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • Arbcom has not seen and dealt with you removing a 2014 review in May 2016. Why did you replace a review with popular press articles?[142][143] A review is a higher quality source than popular press articles.
            • See a random diff from 2017: "Some researchers and anti-tobacco advocates are concerned that irresponsible marketing could make e-cigarettes appeal to young people.[81][57]"[144] You claimed the sources verify "anti-tobacco advocates". Where does the sources verify "young people"? You think authors of e-cig research are "anti-tobacco advocates"? You don't like the word youth? Is it because marketing to youth has a negative connotation for the e-cig industry? Now there is an entire section on marketing to youth in a new article.
            • Citation 81 verifies "E-cigarette marketing may entice adults and children. Citation 52 verifies "E-cigarettes may appeal to youth because of their high-tech design, large assortment of flavors, and easy accessibility online."
            • You previously stated "QG does genuinely good work fending off advocates and SPAs." Do you acknowledge you added content that failed verification? QuackGuru (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
              • Lol, I acknowledge that I've often added content that fails your interpretation of verification. You think that anything that isn't directly taken from an academic source is inadmissible. Incidentally, the reason why WP:V explicitly tells you not to violate copyright is because nearly ten years ago, I personally put that in. Nowadays my original phrase has become a whole paragraph, because people citing sources too exactly has been a serious problem.

                As I said, if you think my edits are problematic then you're welcome to open an AN/I on me below: I'll happily respond to them there. But this thread is about your behaviour.—S Marshall T/C 20:23, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed editing restrictions for e-cigs

A key part of the problem is unsourced and failed verification content. Accordingly I suggest these restrictions on policy violations:

  1. Prohibition on unsourced content. If there is no citation at the end of the claim it is considered unsourced content
  2. Prohibition on failed verification content. If the citation does not completely verify the claim it is considered failed verification content.

Anyone violating these restrictions more than once in a one week period is topic banned. They would have to be warned about the first violation before they would be topic banned for the second violation.

  • Support. Cloudjpk (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Missing the whole point. No-one is trying to push unverifiable content here. Rather QuackGuru is using that as a dogwhistle complaint against our normal standards for what really constitutes "unreliable" or "failed" sourcing. To implement this would be to also give them a tban-on-request stick against other editors, contrary to all our normal TBAN process. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • For almost all content related to nicotine, it is against our normal standards to add or restore "unreliable" sources and "failed" content. See WP:MEDCITE. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Andy Dingley. There is no need to define unsourced content and/or failed verification any differently to the way it's done everywhere else on the encyclopaedia. Indeed, doing so would likely do more harm than good. Thryduulf (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • !00% of the content in Electronic cigarette is sourced and it is peppered with hundreds of MEDRS-compliant reviews. Following V policy is very simple, IMO. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is already the case everywhere. WP:V: Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. And it is a blockable offence to restore it without a valid source. Hawkeye7(discuss) 23:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Violating" WP:BURDEN is not generally considered a blockable offense, especially, and most relevantly, when we're talking about restoring blanked content that (a) doesn't actually need a source according to any editor except one who wants every single sentence followed by an inline citation to a plagiarized or near-plagiarized reliable source, or (b) the content is already cited elsewhere in the article. Wikipedia:Tendentious editing and Wikipedia:Disruptive editing will both get you blocked, though. Have a look at Quack's very lengthy block log if you want proof of what we actually block editors for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support both 1 and 2. There are issues with unverifiable content being added and restored here. Recently sourced content has been replaced with failed verification.[145][146] There was a RfC about the safety content. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive_31#Safer_than_tobacco_claim. I started RfCs to deal with failed verification content. For example, see Talk:Heat-not-burn_product/Archive_10#Pyrolyse. If anyone feels that their editing would be seriously hindered by following verifiability policy then maybe they should not be editing this topic area. This will help with behavior modification and to cut our losses with repeat offenders. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - It is not quite correct to say that this is already the case throughout Wikipedia. WP:V doesn't prohibit unsourced content, it can be added to articles, but is subject to removal at any time, and can't then be restored without a source. That's not the same thing as is being proposed here, which is that unsourced content is prohibited from being added in the first place. There are no sanctions specified (which is a problem with the proposal) but I would assume that any editor making multiple infractions of this would be subject to blocks. I do wonder, though, if it would not be better simply to place E-cigs under community general sanctions as a tidier solution. (See WP:General sanctions#Community-authorised sanctions for a list of currently active community-imposed general sanctions.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:19, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Beyond My Ken: Per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles#Discretionary sanctions the previous Community-authorised sanctions for this topic area were withdrawn and replaced by arbcom discretionary sanctions. Thryduulf (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Beyond My Ken: maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying but this proposal explicitly says (and said [147]) "Anyone violating these restrictions more than once in a one week period is topic banned" if they've been warned. Once an editor is topic banned, the norm is they will be subject to escalating blocks if they edit in violation of their topic ban. Technically this doesn't cover people who violate these restrictions once every week but such gaming of restrictions tends to be dealt with the same as violating them. Nil Einne (talk) 22:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Clearly QuackGuru is a little too aggressive in this topic area, and hasn't backed down from that stance despite people raising concerns. Waggie (talk) 02:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So you want to give them the power to TBAN opposing editors, just on their say-so? Did you intend your support comment to apply to the proposal it's tagged beneath? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DS are already in effect in the topic, so "opposing" editors (or anyone) can be topic banned if their behavior is disruptive, contributing to a battleground mentality, or causing other editors to be terse. For instance, when an editor such as Andy Digley exhibits battleground behavior in their comments at this ANI towards QuackGuru, that can be a good indication to admins that they should be topic or interaction-banned in order to cut down disruption in the topic. I went looking at the talk pages to try to verify some of your claims about Quack, but I'm already seeing some hounding of Quack on the talk pages here and here where you're unable to WP:FOC at article talk pages and more interested in hounding QuackGuru who actually was engaging in content. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Andy Dingley, not based on someone's say-so. Concern has been raised, and after reviewing the situation QuackGuru is, in my opinion, clearly overly aggressive in this topic area, based on own behavior. I also do believe that you are correct in that I posted my support in the incorrect proposal here. I have struck my support here. I support Thrydulff's proposal, as I believe that will yield sufficient results in this situation. Waggie (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the ideas in theory, but the discertionary sanctions should already be tamping down or removing editors that are causing problems in these two areas, so any admin can enforce this already. Given the battelground behavior I'm seeing at this ANI that appears to be mostly one-sided after not looking at an e-cig page for some years, it's clear the discretionary sanctions need to be enforced in general to cut that behavior out. I'm mostly seeing QuackGuru sticking to content while others are more focused on QuackGuru here, so fixing the latter battlegrounding should alleviate some of the terseness coming from QuackGuru (which isn't sanctionable in the first place). I'd sure stick to focusing on content and not responding to WP:BAITING comments like in this section. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Battleground? I'd remind you that QuackGuru began this by falsely describing this as "Redirect non-notable hoax article.". It is not acceptable to attack multiple other editors like this and to accuse them of creating hoaxes. This isn't merely a difference of opinion, it's an accusation of fraudulent editing. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What did the updated edit summary state? QuackGuru (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Funny looking sort of apology. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - using a sledgehammer to crack the wrong nut. Will cause more trouble, not less. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Near the start of this thread, WhatamIdoing stated, "It's my impression that QuackGuru is very frequently concerned that anything short of plagiarism might not be true enough to the cited source." I've seen QuackGuru do this various times, and his odd interpretation of verification has gotten him in plagiarism trouble before. As seen here, an editor brought plagiarism to his attention. Also, here in a different ANI thread, Doc James stated, "They closely follows sources which is generally a good thing. Agree with the concerns around them adding FV tags as sometimes it is appropriate to paraphrase more." Needless to state, his faulty "failed verification" tags are a big issue. Somehow QuackGuru got it in his head that we can't summarize a source's words, like we are supposed to do if not quoting the source and if WP:LIMITED doesn't apply. If an editor uses their own words to summarize a source's text, you can expect QuackGuru to add a "failed verification" tag. This has got to stop. It is one of the more problematic aspects of his editing. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the requirement that every fact be followed by a citation. The table that User:HLHJ put above is, in my experience, a remarkably accurate illustration of what's Quack wants. We need well-writing articles that contain verifiable contents and present all perspectives in WP:DUE weight. The overall goal is almost unrelated to whether or not there's an inline citation after every piece of terminal punctuation. Nobody wants {{fv}} content. The problem here is what happens when one editor perseverates in declaring a fact to have failed verification after multiple other editors tell him that he's wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:NOTPERFECT. These restrictions are too onerous. Buffs (talk) 18:19, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No need when arbcom DS are in effect anyway - this would just add more surface area to wikilawyer about. Alexbrn (talk) 14:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Next step?

There is I think consensus above that something needs to be done regarding QuackGuru's editing behaviour, at least in the e-cigs topic area. There is though no obvious consensus for any specific action. This means we need to decide how we move forward in a way that benefits the project. What is that way?

  • Option 1 is to ignore it and hope the behaviour goes away, after all these years of it being repeated and not going away at all?
  • Option 2 is to, as S Marshall puts it: "Issue another warning, in the hope that the frowny face and waggy finger of administorial disapproval somehow works this time, after all these years of having no effect?"
  • Option 3 is for an uninvolved admin to issue a discretionary sanction (Arbcom authorised discretionary sanctions in the e-cigs topic area in the case)
  • Option 4 is to hand the matter to arbcom as we, the community, have clearly failed to solve the problem.

I support 3 or 4, with a very slight preference for the latter. I do not support options 1 or 2. Thryduulf (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Option 4. In the few paragraphs I was able to read in this discussion, it looks like there are a lot of legal implications involving the subject area which QuackGuru usually edits. For that reason, I think it would be wise for Arbcom to take on this case and see if there might be underlying reasons for an action that we have yet to discuss here. I have never edited in this area myself, but from reading this in from my experiences with knowing how the media is portraying the subject these days, I can tell this is a highly pretentious subject area and the concerns regarding QuackGuru's editing need to be handled very carefully and thoughtfully. Steel1943 (talk) 02:26, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hilarious though it would be for AN/I to decide that QG deserves yet another last chance, out of the options above it's clearly in Wikipedia's best interests to refer the matter to Arbcom. Again. 3 is a non-starter. If any of the DS-enforcing admins knew what to do about QG, they would have done it. Arbcom has no magic powers either, of course, but it can't allow its own previous decisions to be ignored, so a referral to Arbcom will be just like issuing a Tban here and now. But with more delay, process and bureaucracy.—S Marshall T/C 09:20, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 4: QG is back at it again, flagrantly violating wp:soap within this article: 2019 United States outbreak of lung illness linked to vaping products - any attempt to adjust the article results in a revert and a passive-aggressive message! they have falsely accused me of shilling:

The hospital bed patient and image is a salient topic. Anyone can create a new article. It is a violation of NPOV to hide the content under a rug.

QuackGuru
  • Option 3 Admins are empowered to impose DS in this area, so one may step up and do it. Sooner would be better than later judging by how much time/attention this has consumed already. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issue appears to be that the community disagrees regarding the degree of the present problem / what the problem is. As raised by a few people there is some concerns around QG use of "failed verification" tags. And what degree of paraphrasing is allowed / required by copyright. An option that addresses that would be something I would consider. Maybe something like "Option 5 QG must post on the talk page when they feel something fails verification, if another editor agrees with them than the tag can be placed. Otherwise they are free to go about rephrasing the text in question per normal editing practice" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:39, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really don't feel that this proposal will do anything to stop QG from being abrasive, confrontational, obstructive, patronising, and immensely time-consuming to deal with.—S Marshall T/C 14:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree his abrasive nature (e.g implying I'm a shill) wastes time that could be put to more productive things Mfernflower (talk)
  • I was not here for the citation issues, my main complaint is he has included and emotionally defended patient testimonials copypasted from news sites in the 2019 lung disease article in flagrant violation of wp:soap and wp:nothere Mfernflower (talk) 12:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of the above options I'm not seeing any consensus that something needs to be done, let alone what. Swarm and others feel the complaint is invalid. To me this seems largely a content dispute. However I agree Quackguru has been abrasive, but not to a level worthy of restriction. I have dealt with prickly editors whose contributions remain valuable. A few editors here are concerned about QuackGuru's use of failed verification tags. The tags were created for a reason; it is not disruptive to use them for the purpose for which they were created. Complaining on AN/I about mere use of them seems to me a frivolous complaint. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose any sanction - I'm sure this proposal was made in good faith, but I must reject the very premise of these supposed "options". Someone brings a content dispute here, falsely (objectively falsely) reporting a legitimate action as an abusive circumvention of policy, which it wasn't. This gets pointed out, then the complaint gets rewritten by numerous other users coming out of the woodwork who want to air their grievances, which are not even clearly defined or cohesive. Numerous proposals come about, none of which are successful. There is no consensus for any action. But now you're coming here, claiming that we need to formalize something, and framing "no action" as an option to "ignore the problem and hope it goes away"? Seriously? I have never, ever, seen such a thing. How silly is it to propose "Arbcom, sanction, warning, or ignore the problem"? There's no possibility for disagreement, you've just unilaterally decided that you're trying to facilitate a consensus that you claim exists, as an involved complainant whose proposal for sanction was rejected. Imagine if everyone did this; made a complaint, proposed a remedy, got rejected, and then started a subsection saying "okay, we now have a community consensus that my complaint is valid and that something must be done. So choose between Arbcom, sanction, and warn. Anyone who wants no action can get put down as 'wanting to ignore the problem.'" It's just so deceptive it's wrong, and so was the original complaint. I'm not saying none of the complaints about QG are legitimate, but I refuse to support or even consider any proposals for sanctions that are facilitated by gamey tactics such as deceptive wording, false pretenses, moving goalposts, or outright lies. If QG is half as disruptive as people are claiming he is, then there should be no problem coming here with a concise complaint, diffs that speak for themselves, and a clear remedy to be proposed. This thread was dirty from the start and the optics of this proposal are just terrible. If you have a proposal to make that you want considered, make it. But opening with a presumption of guilt and telling us to decide between "do something" or "ignore the problem" is so incredibly wrong. That's not how it works. "No action" is the default. AGF is the default. The only real way forward that I can envision starts with this horrible thread being put out of its misery. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:11, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We do not have a policy that says it's OK to accuse other editors of creating hoaxes, just because one either doesn't like the topic, or doesn't like other editors writing in 'your' space. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:49, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
we have policy against the latter wp:own Mfernflower (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I provided an updated edit summary for the redirect. QuackGuru (talk) 15:42, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Swarm and Cloudjpk: I get that you disagree that the evidence of years of disruptive editing, tendentious editing, refusing to accept consensus, failing to understand the concept of paraphrasing, etc. presented above is evidence of any of that. However there is a clear consensus of other editors that it is a problem and that something needs to be done. That part of the discussion is over, the consensus of the community is that there is a problem that needs dealing with, whether you agree or disagree with that is not relevant. The only thing needed now is consensus on what action should be taken to deal with the problem. Thryduulf (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What? Just what? These words you have written have nothing to do with what I said. Either you didn't even read my comment, and you're just dismissing me as "disagreeing with the evidence", or this is yet another deceptive and misleading tactic meant to facilitate your desired outcome. Again, you're WP:INVOLVED in this discussion, so claiming that you are facilitating a consensus is not only technically not allowed, but abusive. ~Swarm~{sting} 17:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I'm involved with this - I'm involved and trying to facilitate a consensus because that benefits everybody - whether that consensus is for my favoured outcome or not. I'm not being deceptive, I'm not being misleading, I'm summarising the blatantly obvious: There is a consensus that something needs to be done, there is no consensus on what needs to be done. I have read everything in this thread multiple times and I honestly do not see how anyone can have done so and fail to see evidence of a problem. If you genuinely do think this is a harassment campaign against QG, you or anyone else then please feel free to take it to arbcom (given that we're already at ANI). Thryduulf (talk) 01:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All of that misses my point, which is that the proposal is inappropriately worded. There's no consensus that "something needs to be done", just a bunch of complaints. The consensus against doing anything so far seems to suggest that your reading is disingenuous, which is irrelevant, because you have no authority to even claim to be officiating a consensus as you're involved, and yet not only are you doing so, but you're using that nonexistent consensus to justify making a proposal that assumes guilt, even if the response is "no action", and that's deceptive. You know damn well that this isn't how sanctions proposals usually operate. You don't pre-emptively reskin "oppose" as "acknowledge but ignore the problem", and yet that is exactly what you're trying to do. My objections are easily resolved. Just not easily dismissed by falsifying what they are. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:10, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think Swarm (talk·contribs) is onto something in that the accusation here is sort of broad and nebulous, encompassing content disputes as well as conduct disputes and personality quirks/abrasive behavior. That is probably why none of the proposed sanctions were successful, because each failed to address all of the concerns that people had and were not tailored enough to be reliably enforced without actually causing future problems. I wonder if it might be a good idea for QuackGuru's critics to just take a step back from editing the same articles as him for a while. Not an interaction ban, but just a (voluntary) step back to allow the tension to ease and to make it easier to work together. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 18:29, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Awful idea - as per WP:OWN - he also flagrantly violated copyright law in one of his articles. Mfernflower (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I generally don't edit the same articles as QG anyway, my concerns about his behavior stem from the reports on boards like this. Someone having so many problems in so many disparate areas that simple proposals can't emcompass all of them indicates a greater need for action not a need for those affected to step back. Thryduulf (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
His aggressive ownership of articles is what bothers me most Mfernflower (talk) 00:05, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
These are all fair points. As a compromise, what if the affected editors all agreed to step back from these articles temporarily for a few weeks, and QG is admonished to review WP:OWN and discuss future failed-verification tags either in the edit summary or the talk page so that others can understand his perspective and debate the rationale behind the tag? This won't fix all of the issues but it would reduce the surface area for future arguments. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, because that's not in any sense a compromise. Driving away other editors is the result QG wants to achieve. He wants to be allowed to make all his articles identical to the userspace drafts he maintains for each one. Other editors prevent him from doing that. So if we agreed the affected editors all stepped back, then far from "compromising", what we're actually doing is rewarding QG for the problem behaviours.

I've noticed that @Swarm: thinks there isn't any evidence to document that QG has any problem behaviours. So let's enumerate some of them. Searching AN/I's archives about him yields these 277 results. I present his block log, and draw your attention to the number of times the words "disruptive" and "harassment" are mentioned in it. Searching Arbcom's enforcement logs yields these 19 results, of which to be fair "only" 16 are actually about him. I could go on and on.

In fact, I think I will. He was asked to desist from tendentious editing in 2008. He was topic banned from pseudoscience and chiropractic for a period of one year on 24 July 2011. He was restricted to 0RR in the acupuncture topic area and 1RR in alternative medicine topic area on 24 May 2015. This was escalated to a topic ban on 6 October 2015. On 17 November 2015, Arbcom noted that he exhibits "a double-standard for sources", criticised him for "edit-warring" and for making large changes without discussion, among other behaviours, and gave him the warning Thryduulf mentioned at the start of this colossal thread. By the by, I'm sure that the reason why Thryduulf is so clear that QG's behaviour is a problem, is because Thryduulf was an arbitrator the last time all this went down so he's already familiar with a lot of the evidence.—S Marshall T/C 19:10, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now this is just getting comical. I'm opposing specifically on the grounds that the complainants are employing inappropriate behavior in this thread, specifically stating "I'm not saying none of the complaints about QG are legitimate, but I refuse to support or even consider any proposals for sanctions that are facilitated by gamey tactics such as deceptive wording, false pretenses, moving goalposts, or outright lies." These are all things that are going on in this thread. And, yet, Thryduulf misrepresents me by claiming I disagree that 'the evidence is evidence', and now you're going even farther in claiming that I think "there isn't any evidence" whatsoever. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you guys are not only misrepresenting me, but you're outright lying to discredit me. And that's exactly the reason I reject the premise of this thread, because you guys are being deceptive, misleading, and manipulative, trying to game your way into your desired end result. The funny thing is, I'm not even defending QG directly, I'm just calling out these bizarre manipulative tactics as I see them. I have never seen people go to such lengths to unfairly manipulate a discussion. Like I said, if QG is half as disruptive as he is alleged to be, then I don't understand why we're seeing these desperate lies, misrepresentations, involved readings of consensus, deceptively-worded proposals, and personal attacks against uninvolved observers. ~Swarm~{sting} 20:49, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If that's your view, why not support the referral to Arbcom? This will give you a platform to complain about mean old S Marshall and his gang's framing, spin and blatant unfairness to our innocent victim QG, and you'll have the satisfaction of seeing them hand down mighty boomerangs of admonishment.—S MarshallT/C 21:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This proposal itself is part of the problem, as I have literally already explained. If you guys want it to go to Arbcom, then take it to Arbcom, literally nobody's stopping you, and you don't need my or the community's approval to do that. Nor is anyone stopping you from making a new proposal for community consideration. ~Swarm~{sting} 01:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Yes, we do need the community's support with this. At the start of any Arbcom case, you're asked to provide diffs that convince Arbcom that this is a matter the community can't resolve, and this AN/I thread will not suffice to do that, because people are still pretending that this is basically a content dispute. And, if you've never tried to improve one of the articles QG manages, and if you don't know the history, and if you look at the diffs in exactly the right light and squint a bit, you can make it look like a content dispute. Which is why this so often-sanctioned editor has got away for so long without a site-ban: he does do good and useful work in some topic areas, and he never quite crosses the line far enough to produce that one smoking-gun diff that Wikipedians demand before they'll support drastic action.

You've got to look at the history, at his editing in the round, in good faith and with an open mind before you can see the amount of control he exercises and the sheer relentless barrage of trivia and makework he fires at you when you try to fix a problem, and I can't make you do that. If you're just going to continue to sit there and demand one smoking-gun diff, then you're helping this be the 278th time QG gets away from AN/I with a free pass to do it all again.

On the offchance that you or some bystander is minded to try, I'd suggest beginning by using an article-blamer utility on one of the pages he manages. Then compare it over time with the draft in his userspace (which may well have an obfuscated title, by the by, but it'll be there somewhere; it's frustrating to track them down though).—S Marshall T/C 14:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem as if that issue will exist regardless of what Swarm says or does here, though. It will inevitably be difficult to present this case to Arbcom, partly for the same reason why it was difficult to reach a consensus on any of the issues discussed above. Someone is inevitably going to have to compile all of the evidence and history into a digestible form and make the argument, even if Swarm agreed with the suggestion to go to Arbcom. It sounds like Swarm's main issue in this instance is that he resents being asked to choose from a menu of 4 options which he considers an unfair framing (e.g. being asked to choose between these options or nothing at all). I'm not sure if it is worth spending a lot of time nitpicking over that aspect though, since either way it won't really resolve the issue or even bring us closer to a resolution. In a weird way, this is actually worse than if someone was a vandal or a troll; everyone involved is operating in good faith and trying to help the project as best they can, and there's just gridlock based on principles rather than because one person is clearly here to mess with the encyclopedia. I don't think fighting with each other to get unanimity to go to ArbCom is going to help though. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You may consider it "nitpicking", but this goes to the very most fundamental of our project's governance, which is consensus. Consensus is incredibly simple, and not difficult to abide by. The only way it gets complicated is by trying to game the system, which, if permitted, undermines the entire system by which the project is governed, which directly harms article quality. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being petty over wording, but quite the contrary—I feel the tactics being employed here are meant to fabricate a consensus, rather than to appeal to one legitimately. This concern is very easily fixed, and the fact that users would rather argue rather than simply resolve the concern is, to me, what's petty. ~Swarm~{sting} 00:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Swarm -- to clarify, I did not mean to accuse you of nitpicking or being petty over wording. I think your concern about the framing of the request is absolutely valid and I don't think that you were being unreasonable in raising them in this discussion. What I was trying to say, rather, is that I don't see why S Marshall feels that trying to persuade you to agree with his POV is a necessary first step before referring this to Arbcom. Even if you and he both agreed that this discussion should be taken to Arbcom, that would in no way obviate the need to, as he put it, provide diffs that convince Arbcom that this is a matter the community can't resolve. The issue with QG is inherently complicated and is inherently going to be difficult to resolve through any forum (either here or ArbCom). It features debates over complicated aspects of policy, fuzzy debates over user conduct, and long-running tensions that have cut across multiple years and at least a dozen articles. Presenting that in a digestible or coherent format is going to be difficult no matter what IMHO, so I think the focus on trying to get Swarm (or anyone else) to support or oppose the ArbCom suggestion is a bit academic (since it doesn't get us closer to a resolution or make anything simpler to understand). I hope that clarifies what I meant above and I sincerely apologize if my comment above about 'nitpicking' came across as a jab at you or your position on this issue. 208.185.237.210 (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed "solution" of letting QG run the article without interference from anyone who disagrees with him is so favorable to him that it raises eyebrows TBH. And from a user who doesn't seem to know about the history of the controversy...? 107.77.203.209 (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, letting him run amok would be disastrous and violate WP:OWN and WP:COI policy Mfernflower (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 4 I have run into this editor a few times. Their behaviour both in articles and towards me needs action. Per Steel194 and S Marshall. Thanks, Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • May I ask what the process is to get into arb? Mfernflower (talk)
  • At this point I cannot wait for this to get into arb - I recon I sunk about 3 hours already into this debacle Mfernflower (talk) 03:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 4. We have been trying and failing to come up with a solution to QG's problematic behaviour for years. This needs a creative solution short of a ban, and we can't seem to come up with one here. Guy (help!) 10:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ??? oppose all sanctions What is this regarding? The 1 October Roy Smith call for a block at the top here? I already commented above that I do not see QuackGuru's behavior as unwarranted in the context of the massive paid industry lobbying and propaganda here. If anyone wants to make a complaint to seek review then lay out the case in the usual way and go through any usual process. The e-cigarette and nicotine marketplace is an environment of high financial stakes and corporate propaganda where global industry is investing millions of dollars. Going by the wiki process strictly is essential here. QuackGuru is not the problem here - the problem is the drug industry endless flood of paid propaganda and advocacy. Blue Rasberry (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If I replace nicotine with the word vaccine - you would not sound out of place with the likes of McCarthy and Wakefield Mfernflower (talk) 13:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Mfernflower: I am failing to understand what you mean. Are you comparing the tobacco industry to the vaccine industry, and saying that the comparison is relevant here? Blue Rasberry (talk) 03:34, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Bluerasberry, "the wiki process" does not involve trying to WP:CHALLENGE information that you personally know to be accurate and verifiable. Quack is not a lone crusader against an evil industry. He's an editor with a long block log who has spent years and years struggling to figure out whether a given fact actually requires a source, and when supplied with a source, even more trouble figuring out whether that source supports the claim if the words in the source aren't almost identical to the words in the article. The community has had dozens of conversations over the year about statements that he says "fail verification" and everyone else says is okay. This problem is subject-matter independent, and it is not getting better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing: Let me review what I see, and you tell me if this seems like wiki process. At the top of all this discussion a user complains about QuackGuru redirecting an old version of an article called pod mod to Construction of electronic cigarettes. The user complains about lack of process, wanting an AfD for this or some other more formal process than a redirect. They say that this redirect is misconduct and generally claim that QuackGuru does misconduct routinely. On the basis of this redirect and unstated memories of other misconduct, the Wikimedia community is asked to judge this editor for a serious sanction.
Am I missing something? Does my summary here reflect the form of this discussion? Is this not contrary to usual wiki process for issuing sanctions, where we make judgements based on links to alleged offenses? I could be in error about something but this conversation does not have some basic components, like a list of accusations, that I would expect when we are asked to judge a person based on claims of bad behavior. I feel like making the list should take 10-15 minutes if the offenses really exist and are as easy for identify as some people say. Why not set up the judgement in the normal way instead of calling to pass judgement on claims of historical bad behavior? Blue Rasberry (talk) 03:28, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are missing something. Our process for discussing behavior is not limited to whichever links people choose to spoon-feed to the ANI regulars. This a wiki discussion, not a judicial system. We don't need a formal list of accusations, because we assume that you're able to look at the person's behavior yourself (if you haven't already been reading about it for months or years already), and the whole situation, and the role of any other people involved it. The goal isn't to judge whether a person is good or bad. It's to figure out whether certain situations and behaviors are working for the overall project, and to decide whether anything needs to change. It happens that my opinion is that Quack's behavior is not working for us. You're entitled to your opinion, but I hope that you will look into it and decide whether you have any concerns about Quack's behavior, rather than just about how you'd score this section if it were a mock trial contest. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 4 - This editor has been dividing the community for several years. The function of the ARBCOM is to resolve disputes that the community is unable to resolve, and it has been unable to stop this editor from dividing the community into: supporters, who think that he is needed to fight an evil industry; opponents, who would like him topic-banned or site-banned; in-between critics, who think that he adds value but needs to be restricted, but do not know how to restrict him. This is what ArbCom is for. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:43, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

64.8.128.0/18

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It seems that 15,872 IPs that comprise 31/32 of the range—namely, everything except Special:Contribs/64.8.190.0/23—are infested by unruly minors and hardly contribute in anything but vandalism and tests. To block IP-only:

(this is, evidently, the dyadic decomposition of 64.8.128.0–64.8.189.255). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:38, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WHOIS says that the range is owned by the State of Minnesota [148]. They have an abuse contact, anyone willing to take a crack at emailing them before we block the entire state government? (also, points to Incnis Mrsi for using the phrase "dyadic decomposition" in the same sentence as an IP range) creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't see why there would be a need for a range block since only a couple of dozen or so of those IPs, i.e. only a couple of percent of them (all apparently school IPs), have edited en-WP during the past six months or so, and those can all be found here. - Tom Thomas.W talk 19:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This whole /18 range was last blocked in February 2019 for three months by User:GeneralizationsAreBad. Anyone can look at Special:Contributions/64.8.128.0/18 and try to find a single good edit. In my opinion, it's time for another block. EdJohnston (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, there are some legit edits originating from 64.8.190. Try to read the thread from the first phrase, EdJohnston. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Incnis Mrsi:, I overlooked your comment. Your proposal is to block the entire /18 except for the one good guy at Special:Contributions/64.8.190.0/23? And you are confident that the above five blocks do the job? EdJohnston (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
EdJohnston - I calculated the necessary ranges myself, and I can confirm that blocking the five IP ranges listed below (which are the same as the ones listed above) will block from 64.8.128.0 to 64.8.189.255, and leave 64.8.190.0 - 64.8.191.255 (or 64.8.190.0/23) open, which is exactly what Incnis Mrsi is looking for (which I agree with, as the IP range seems to be making good edits).
64.8.128.0/19
64.8.160.0/20
64.8.176.0/21
64.8.184.0/22
64.8.188.0/23
Cheers - ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 00:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rangeblock - Literally not one good edit in their contributions. Jdcomix (talk) 20:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to the commenters above I figured out how this works. The five ranges originally proposed above by User:Incnis Mrsi (and confirmed by User:Oshwah) are now blocked 6 months each for vandalism. That is a doubling of the prior block length given to the /18. EdJohnston (talk) 00:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing on Second_Battle_of_Ras_al-Ayn_(2019) by KasimMejia

KasimMejia appears to be engaging in disruptive non good faith editing on the page Second_Battle_of_Ras_al-Ayn_(2019). (1) He put the page up for deletion (2) He put a Wikipedia noticeboard incident up about the page and myself, without discussing the issues with myself (3) He then removed the link to the page from the main page about the operation 2019 Turkish offensive into north-eastern Syria (4) he then put citation tags all through the page, some justified, but many spurious (5)At one point, he had 4 Banner problems on the page. Considering he is pushing for the page to be deleted because he says it is unsubstantial..at the same time, he is removing material from the page that should be there, and without seeking any sort of consensus on the talk page. At one point, he had put 16 citation tags in the article, and 4 issue templates at the top. I am not sure his editing has the genuine interest of wikipedia users at heart. I have asked for him to return the material to the page until consensus is reached, and he has refused. I don't have time to deal with this, and I can see he has had issues with edit warring in the past, and want to avoid this. I would ask that an admin has him blocked from the page, thank you. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You two need to learn to work together instead of both of you continuing to bring your content disputes to ANI. El_C 10:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would have assumed the above activity, plus this is not standard/good faith wikipedia article creation, especially considering KasimMejia has only been editing for less than a month.Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article talk page is the place to raise these issues. Do so while assuming good faith, even and especially when disagreement is acute. Other editors' interpretation of the material may vary highly, but strive to reach consensus to sort out the article's direction. The AfD is part of that process. There are also dispute resolution requests that are available to you. Please take advantage of them rather than look for an admin to decide in your favour by fiat — that seems unlikely to happen at this time. El_C 10:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The diff that he has linked was taken out by me after 1 minute. [149], [150]. KasimMejia (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I nominated the page the user created for deletion due to lack of material. I also added verification and original research templates due to both problems at the page. I also opened a notification about the user here 2-3 days ago due to him adding uncited material. Later I improved the page he created by taking out unverified additions as well as the template and inline templates - he is now accusing me of disruptive editing for that. One final note, before opening this notice, user accused me of being in bad faith two times on my talk page, "having and agenda" and told me to cease working on the page he created or he will have an admin banned me from it. [151]. KasimMejia (talk) 10:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks El_C Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is just one more example of why WP:NOT#NEWS should be enforced, and we should wait until proper secondary sources, which don't include breaking news reports, appear. Both of the editors involved, from my cursory examination of their comments, appear to be reasonable people, but in this rush to lay down the first draft of history here they are bickering. Let's let historians decide what is history, and then have an article based on what they eventually write, rather than treat news reports as if they were secondary sources. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Slatersteven raised a similar point earlier this week about a related topic and I agree with him and Phil Bridger. There's no need to provide up-to-the-minute war reporting coverage on Wikipedia, in particular of a war that is literally happening right now. We are never going to be able to make an effective Wikipedia version of embedded war correspondents (w, and trying to do so usually leads to edit warring and policy violations by good faith editors. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is very much linked to the now closed thread about DS sanctions over at The Turkish invasion main article. Yes I do think wp:notnws is being ridden roughshod over. Its a policy and it is being ignored, here and at other related articles. I do not know (nor frankly do I care) who is at fault here. What I do care about is that this is not encyclopedic (and is borderline tabloid) reporting.Slatersteven (talk) 07:57, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another editor using an IP sock

Recent contributions show a striking similarity of interests. Editing as an IP is not proscribed per se, but the user alternates between IP and the account in an edit war. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:08, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no doubt whatever that this is one person, who has also used the IP address 98.27.17.189 in the past, but apart from the one incident linked by Incnis Mrsi I have not seen any edits which could be regarded as abusive use of editing with and without logging in. (However, there are many hundreds of edits, and I can't guarantee there aren't more problem edits that I haven't seen). 98.27.17.104 is currently subject to a CheckUser block. I shall post a message to Chad The Goatman advising him not to alternate IP editing with logged in editing, especially when editing one article. For now, I think there is nothing else to be done, but of course I will be willing to reconsider that if future editing shows further problems. JBW (talk) Formerly known as JamesBWatson 11:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with JBW's comment and observation here. The different IP addresses used look to be in-line with a typical IP change that Charter customers will see happen once in awhile (dynamic IP allocation). Unless more evidence presents itself, I wouldn't call this intentional. A message to the user is a good start here. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 08:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ramesh Nagaraj Rao (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please can we have an admin look at the history of this AFD:

  • An editor who voted delete in the AFD, hats/closes sub-discussions, marking them as "extended content", though the discussion is relevant. One of them with the personal comment "verging on WP:BLUDGEON". This action is clearly not appropriate for someone who has already voted.
  • User:Winged Blades of Godric, the nominator, removes a "keep" vote by a IP. This is clearly against policy, as IPs are allowed to vote in afd's. The validity of the vote is for the closing admin to determine.

I reverted all of the above (with explanation), only to be rollbacked with the dismissive comment "busybodies", and then again with the comment "Go away". I requested them to [self-revert on their talk page], but alas, no response.

SD0001 (talk) 20:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SD0001: I see that Nosebagbear got there while I was typing his, but please make sure that all users involved, including Serial Number 54129 (talk · contribs), are notified of ANI discussions, IffyChat -- 22:15, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I've looked, the IP seems to have restored their !vote. I'll restore it if it gets removed again without good reasoning. I'll take a look as to whether the hatted discussions can/should be extended. I don't believe either WBG or SerialNumber (who I've notified for you, since you also mention his edits) should have made those specific edits, though it should be noted that SerialNumber's second hatnote is actually hatting the nom's (and thus someone sharing his viewpoint). Nosebagbear (talk) 22:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've unhatted the first section, some is a discussion on interpretation of the rules and wouldn't be an issue if hatted, but other aspects are directly relevant to the discussion and the quality of the sourcing. Nosebagbear (talk)
  • Comment See User talk:Kautilya3#Edit war. Winged Blades of Godric has been repeatedly reverting attempts to add sourced and relevant content during the discussion. With removal of content, hatnotes on comments, deleted votes, the Afd process here seems sort of broken to me. Winged Blades of Godric seems passionate about getting this rather bland article deleted, not sure why. Maybe Kautilya3 would care to comment? He seems fairly involved, having contributed to earlier versions of the article, voted to delete it, then reverted to the pre-expansion version. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:10, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article protected due to edit warring. Guy (help!) 22:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the AFD has been open longer than 7 days, it can be closed at any time now, right? Because the consensus on the AFD is clear that the article should be deleted. The arguments for deletion has sufficiently shown that the article subject does not possess significant primary coverage. Of those who disagree, one user listed a number of sources that were found, which was met by arguments showing that these sources don't provide significant primary coverage of the article subject, but only trivial mentions that last only a few lines, or trivial mentions within page footnotes. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:RELIST, yes it can. I'm considering just closing this AFD... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 06:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you could close it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NinjaRobotPirate - Done. Closed as "delete" and with an explanation of the rationale provided. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 09:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but would an admin mind warning the nominator that they shouldn't remove comments that they disagree with or hide discussion without a good policy justification? He may have been right on the merits to nominate the article for deletion but it bothers me that he tried to manipulate the discussion by censoring or redacting other users' comments? 208.185.237.210 (talk) 13:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair request. Is there someone who can do this? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 13:22, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Oshwah: perhaps a CU, who will establish wether the miraculous appearance of IPs on an obscure procedural page was anything more than coincidence; as I assume that was the nom's original cause for concern. ——SerialNumber54129 13:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely. I'll leave it to someone else to follow up and have a note. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 13:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From the above, it appears that this thread might be waiting for one more admin comment. User:Oshwah's decision to close this AfD appears well-timed, since having to rule on who was behaving well or badly in the AfD could have led to endless debate. Shall we say that some of the behavior was less than ideal. Do not get too concerned about IPs participating in AfDs. If they are not working in good faith, that is something the the closer can form an opinion on when doing the close and they can assign the appropriate weight to the views that may be expressed. EdJohnston (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What may not be clear from the above is that Winged Blades of Godric removed a large amount of material from the article before nominating it for deletion. After it was expanded with new sources, he launched an edit war to remove the expanded version. The AfD discussion was on his gutted version, which indeed had little evidence of notability. Much of the debate was hidden behind hatnotes. And he deleted the IP's comments. I would say that he should at least get a slap on the wrist. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:04, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aymatth2, stop pinging me. WBGconverse 13:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Asim143 moving draftified article back to mainspace

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See here. This seems to demonstrate to me, as a user following the original case, that this user may not have the competence to edit Wikipedia. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me Contributions). This message was left at 08:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TheDragonFire300 - I've moved the page back to the draft space and modified the redirect I left so that Asim143 cannot undo the move, overwrite the redirect, and move it back. I'll leave the user an explanation and warning. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 09:01, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done (diff). Please let me know if the user causes any more disruption, and I'll be happy to take another look and determine the necessary next steps from there... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 09:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Oshwah: Thanks. Though I wonder whether the redirect in mainspace defeats the purpose of drafitification. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact meContributions). This message was left at 09:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TheDragonFire300 - I was debating that as well... If anything, the redirect can be deleted later. For now, we can keep it and see what the user does in response. I hope that they understand and don't attempt to move the article back to the mainspace again... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 09:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This shouldn't have been re-draftified, but taken to WP:AFD. See WP:DRAFTIFYOther editors (including the author of the page) have a right to object to moving the page, and to have the matter discussed at WP:AfD. If an editor raises an objection, move the page back to mainspace and list at AfD.@Oshwah:, please revert. IffyChat -- 10:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Iffy - I agree with your comment. Done. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 10:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Syed Muhammad Asim is now open. IffyChat -- 11:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Iffy - Perfect, thanks for doing that. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 11:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that they basically dismissed Ninja's warning and their seeming inability to take on criticism, wouldn't an indef until they start communicating be justified? —v^_^vMake your position clear! 17:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, but this is an autobiography and the AfD closer will almost certainly salt it when they delete it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Asim143 and titles

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Asim143 (talk · contribs) seems to have an infatuation with referring to Fazal-ur-Rehman with (and, in prose, solely by) his title of maulana. They've twice moved the article to include the title (violating WP:Naming conventions (people)#Titles and styles) and have blindly search-and-replaced all instances of "Fazal" in the article to "Maulana" ([152] and [153]). Notably, this came on my radar because they came onto #wikipedia-en-help demanding we protect the article on their preferred version; I and another helper refused to do so, and they don't seem to be getting the message. —v^_^v Make your position clear! 13:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It would also appear that an article they created about a cricketer, Syed Muhammad Asim, is an autobiography. [154][155] The only source cited for the cricketer is a dead link. 86.134.75.242 (talk) 15:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Draftified the article; that shouldn't have stuck around in mainspace in that form. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's disruptive – but, as far as I can tell, nobody has explained the rules to Asim143 on his talk page or on the article's talk page. I've move-protected the article for now. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If it were just the move I'd've taken it to RPP. But the blind replacement of his name with the title is also concerning. —v^_^v Make your position clear! 20:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Within minutes of this discussion being closed, Asim143 deleted NinjaRobotPirate's post on Asim's talk page about the use of honerifics with the comment "The person is real celebrity", moved Draft:Syed Muhammad Asim back to Syed Muhammad Asim with a similar edit summary (the article is now at WP:AFD, after unsubstantiated claims about playimng first-class cricket have been removed), and edited the Fazal-ur-Rehman article again, with the edit description "Added Some More Facts About Articles Refrences" while giving no reference whatsoever. 86.134.75.242 (talk) 16:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Topic ban violation by KHMELNYTSKYIA

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KHMELNYTSKYIA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The user is topic-banned from Ukraine [156] and has been previously blocked from topic ban violation [157] but continues to edit (and sometimes edit-war) on topics related to Ukraine [158] [159] [160] [161] [162]--Ymblanter (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Every single edit since their last block expired is a violation of their topic ban. I have blocked for a month. – bradv🍁 19:47, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Ukrainian Academy of Sciences (Non-Governmental organization)

There is a problem with a neutral point of view on the page of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences (Non-Governmental organization) (edit talk history links watch logs). Particular attention was drawn to an active user in the Russian Wikipedia Wanderer777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who at one time replicated his version of the article at once in several language sections of Wikipedia. Moreover, he submitted the information in such a way that it does not correspond to a neutral point of view. When I tried to improve the article, my edits were simply deleted, despite the presence of the "in use" template.

For some reason, the author’s sources were deleted: https://daily.rbc.ua/rus/show/spasti-planetu-ukraintsy-ochishchayut-vodu-1449570920.html https://un-sci.com/ru/2019/05/29/ukrainskoj-akademii-nauk-ispolnilos-28-let/

I found the additional sources, but I'm afraid that they will be deleted the same way, and my work will be in vain. I left a message to Wanderer777 on his talk page but did not receive a response. Wanderer777 contributes a copyright infringing link. To do this, he turned to a user Ymblanter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who added the link to the White List. Now Ymblanter has deleted not only the sources, but also the categories and infobox.

This behavior of the participants leads to the fact that they violate the fundamental users of Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Since one of the users is an administrator, I write messages here-DrPoglum (talk) 11:16, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Judging by the page history and the edits made by the OP the OP is doing at least as much POV-pushing as they claim the editor they're complaining about is doing. The "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" appears to be a private organisation with dubious scientific achievements, and the material added by the OP (with lots of material not supported by the provided source; the main source is an article in a Ukrainian newspaper that just reports on claims about the effectiveness of a certain industrial process made by the organisation, but has no info on the organisation as such, in spite of being used as a source for that by the OP) was removed by an en-WP administrator for being whitewashing and removing good sources. - TomThomas.W talk 11:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, this is a fringe organization, and whereas I am not a fan of Ukrainian media (most of them are unprofessional and look more like blog aggregators), replacing links to them by links to organization itself is not really according to our policies. I know Wanderer777 for many years, still from my times on the Russian Wikipedia, he is in good standing there and has been elected to ArbCom on one or two occasions. If anybody needs a translation of his message and my response, I can provide the translation. Nobody ever pointer out to me an issue with copyright infringement, if there is a link in the article to the copyright infringement site, I will be happy to remove it. The rest I believe belongs to the talk page of the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Btw I can not recollect myself adding any links to the whitelist. I mean, I can not exclude this either, I believe I did this on a couple of occasions in my life, but I certainly do not have any recollection of this fact, or see any connection with this article.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And the link that was whitelisted there (translated into English here) proves that the "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is nothing but a scam, selling diplomas to whoever is willing to pay for them... - Tom Thomas.W talk 12:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it is clear. Still, I do not see anything related to copyright infringement.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any copyright violation either, but I did find an interesting edit by "DrPoglum" where they removed the incriminating link I commented on above, the one showing the organisation to be just a scam, with an obviously false claim about removing a spamlink. - TomThomas.W talk 13:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before accusing me of fraud, please wait for my reply. If the link did not infringe on copyrights, it would not have to be added to the White List. I reported this on the Wanderer777 talk page. This link is not displayed in Google search: https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/19099146.--DrPoglum (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you had checked what the discussion that was linked to says you would have seen that blocking it was a false positive (getting caught because of having "online" in the URL), and that it was whitelisted to get around that problem. So it had absolutely nothing to do with being a copyright violation, it also definitely wasn't a spamlink as you claimed in your edit summary when you removed it. - Tom Thomas.W talk 20:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You'll have to forgive me but, I do not understand your arguments. Narodna Vlada (ukr. "Народна влада") - the official media in Ukraine, registered judging by the registry under the number КВ 9567 (link to the gov.registry https://dzmi.minjust.gov.ua). They filed a complaint under the DMCA procedure for distributing their article without permission and their complaint was upheld. In this regard, materials infringing copyrights were hidden from the search results. Such links become impossible to add as sources to the Wikipedia.--DrPoglum (talk) 23:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What are you talking about? The link you removed is to "expres.online", not "narodna-vlada.org". DrPoglum's now changed editing style and inferior language skills makes me believe that the person who is using the account now isn't the same as the person who wrote the articles and filed this report... - Tom Thomas.W talk 06:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the logic behind this? What can it give? English is not my native language, so in complex sentences I can make inaccuracies, especially when I switch to working with several non-native languages. "expres.online" infringes copyright "narodna-vlada".-DrPoglum (talk) 09:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No evidence for that claim, "expres.online" is the online version of Ekspres, a fully legitimate newspaper claiming to have the largest circulation of all newspapers in Ukraine. - Tom Thomas.W talk 10:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to this Ukrainian news site (provided as a Google Translate translation so that you can check for yourself), the "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" has nothing to do with real science and scientists, instead being created by non-scientists primarily to award fake academic diplomas to themselves and others... - Tom Thomas.W talk 12:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The site above is an aggregator and cannot be an authoritative source. There are only 17 views per article, 3 of which are from me. And an unknown author. And according to this source (national media) this organization brings together scientists and manufacturers and a specific example is given. However, this source has been removed by Ymblanter.--DrPoglum (talk) 20:15, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This source that describing the scientific activities of the organization, its history, structure was also removed without explanation.--DrPoglum (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are several sources that say it's a sham/scam. - Tom Thomas.W talk 20:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not removed information about fraud, I am guided by authoritative sources, with a clear author.--DrPoglum (talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second one is a link to the website of the organization itself. This is what I meant in my first comment of this topic.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not find any connection of the https://un-sci.com publication with the organization.--DrPoglum (talk) 20:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    You are right, it looks indeed like this is indeed not the site of UAN, though a high number of articles on this site which cite UAN is highly suspicious. I do not have time now to investigate it further.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This is an interview with the president of UAS. Everything about UAS is said by this president. --Wanderer777 (talk) 09:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The only thing known about the site is that it is registered in Estonia (!!!). Contacts - error 502. --Wanderer777 (talk) 10:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

COI/paid editing by the OP

I had some time to spare so I decided to check the OP's edits, and found that he's active here, with this account at least, only during a short period each year, using his period of activity here last year to create an article, Municipal Guard (Odessa), that can best be described as a hatchet job on what seems to be a private army loyal to the mayor of Odessa, and then during his period here this year going all in on Ukrainian Academy of Sciences (Non-Governmental organization), and completely white-washing it, so since he spent his time here in 2017 creating a bunch of articles about books by South-African writer Jonny Steinberg (books that at first glance don't seem to be notable on their own, including a couple of articles that have since been deleted and one that survived thanks to the tag being removed by a throw-away account that has since been blocked as a sock), editing that seemed to indicate a possible COI, I decided to check if I could find a direct connection between doing a hatchet job on the Odessa Municipal Guard and glorifying the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences. And I found it. According to that article (which is in Ukrainian, but the link leads to a translation of it) the direct connection between the two is Oleg Maltsev, claimed to be running a sect in Odessa, having an organisation that is a rival to the Municipal Guard, and being a prominent member of the "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences". That link also shows that DrPoglum's article about the Municipal Guard, and their attacks on journalists only tells us part of what happened, failing to mention that the confrontation, between the Municipal Guard and Maltsev's group, started the previous day, and that the journalists that were said to have been attacked weren't "real journalists" but members of Maltsev's group. So the OP seems to be engaged in either paid editing or COI editing, but the impression I get is paid editing, supporting whoever pays best, and not doing it for "ideological reasons", since they seem to have switched sides, previously creating articles about books by Jonny Steinberg, and now supporting Maltsev's interests, because Steinberg and Oleg Maltsev seem to be bitter rivals, writing books about the same subjects (a "war" that has previously been fought also here, on en-WP, with the two sides nominating articles about each others' books for deletion, as can be seen a few lines up...). - Tom Thomas.W talk 16:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are trying to start discussing me, instead of the situation that is happening. By making my modest contribution, I try to be useful to the community.
  1. I did not remove the criticism from the article, this can be seen from the history.
  2. I am ready to check by Checkers.
  3. How does this justify deleting other sources categories and infobox?
  4. Do you really believe that the organization that has existed for more than 25 years, which includes scientists and professors, which has private universities, has left only negative information and not related to science?
  5. I do not represent anyone's interests, but only talk about neutrality in the article. I do not know about paid edits.
  6. One president of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences has more than 150 patents and many scientific papers. Do you really think this is a pseudo-scientific organization?
  7. Now most scientific organizations and institutes are private.
I edit when I have free time, and never engage in vandalism. You can put my articles to be deleted if you think they are not notability. I am for observing the basic principles of Wikipedia. You can also expose the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences (Non-Governmental organization) page for deletion, since without the sources that was deleted, the notability is not visible. But what does this have to do with violating a neutral point of view. Ymblanter himself confirmed that he had known the user Wanderer777 for many years, so I am no longer surprised at such a reaction.-DrPoglum (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anyone who files a report here is fair game, and will be scrutinized the exact same way that editors who are being reported here are. - Tom Thomas.W talk 19:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not mind, only about the editors from you did not read anything.-DrPoglum (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I checked the edits made by Wanderer777 (who I can't remember ever seeing here, i.e. on en-WP, before), and can't see that he did anything wrong, nor did Ymblanter do anything wrong. But you did, since what you added to the article didn't match what I found when looking for sources, which is why I decided to check your other edits... - Tom Thomas.W talk 19:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Until I saw a comment on the removal of more authoritative sources, categories, infobox and violation of a neutral point of view.-DrPoglum (talk) 20:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You'll have to forgive me but I lost you there, and have no idea what you're trying to say. - Tom Thomas.W talk 20:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm trying to say that you did not see any violations in the actions of Ymblanter and Wanderer777. But how do you comment on the deletion of information confirmed by independent sources and the deletion of the sources themselves, categories, infobox. This is not a violation in your opinion?--DrPoglum (talk) 23:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Point 4 above ("organization that has existed for more than 25 years"), reminded me of the Ukrainian/English Europe Business Assembly, which has existed for more than 19 years, and has sold fake awards totalling millions of pounds to many academics and politicians, at least some of whom were likely otherwise reputable. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 07:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The only difference between the Europe Business Assembly and the "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" (which should not be confused with the fully legit National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine) is that the former is aimed at the international market, while the latter is aimed at the domestic (Ukrainian) market, where being able to call oneself an Academician, and wearing a lapel pin showing the honour, still seems to be as big a thing as during Soviet times, so among the people who have bought, or in some cases apparently been given, fake diplomas, honours etc from the fake "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" you'll find both politicians, businesspeople and (minor) scientists, many if not most of them people who don't have any legit university degree at all. - TomThomas.W talk 08:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Google Sсholar you can see the scientific work of members of the organization. For example Scientific works of the president of the organization Olexiy Onipko, Scientific works of vice president of the organization Livinsky Oleksandr. My request specifically concerned a violation of the neutral point of view in the article. There are more authoritative sources that describe the scientific activities of the organization.-DrPoglum (talk) 09:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are plenty of people who are willing to sell their soul for money, if the price is right, so having a figurehead with real credentials is common among sham/scam organisations and companies, and doesn't prove that the organisation as such is legit. - Tom Thomas.W talk 10:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Onipko? I know, I know ... Onipko rotor inventor. But independent research has shown the low efficiency of this rotor. Look АКТУАЛЬНЫЕ ПРОБЛЕМЫ ЭНЕРГЕТИКИ АПК // Материалы VI международной научно-практической конференции. — Саратов: 2015 or Бубенчиков А. А., Артамонова Е. Ю., Дайчман Р. А. Применение ветроколес и генераторов для ветроенергетических установок малой мощности // Международный научно-исследовательский журнал — Вып. 5-2 (36) — 2015. — С.37. --Wanderer777 (talk) 11:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those Google scholar results are singularly unimpressive, very far from the kind of citation counts that could pass WP:PROF#C1 and even farther from what most reputable academies would accept as evidence of scholarly accomplishment. To me, they support the claim that this organization is a sham. But the point of discussion here is not that, nor even whether it is a notable sham (that's for the current AfD to decide), but rather whether there is a pattern of problematic editing. If there is, I agree that it seems to be purely on the part of the editor promoting this organization, DrPoglum. DrPoglum has had past articles deleted as unambiguous promotion and some other articles like The Number (book) potentially deserve the same treatment. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • DrPoglum is now blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:49, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

109.147.186.187

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user:109.147.186.187 is adding unsourced content after her final warning. CLCStudent (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Outing

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At least an attempt: [163]. I'm not from Washington (see User:Toddst1#Who_I'm_Not) but he's obviously tried to google stalk me. Toddst1 (talk) 00:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

yes, Todd here is having a rather over zealous attack. It is not stalking you to mis-read your identity page. Rodolph (talk)
I think he misread your "who I'm not" part of your userpage. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps (probably) you're correct. Still freaked me out. Let's move on - I may be a bit testy this evening. Toddst1 (talk) 06:31, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Personal attacks

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According to User:HistoryofIran, I am, among other things, lazy, the exact opposite of knowledgeable and not someone to be missed on Wikipedia, a sad, little person, and a pretty sad fella who should see a therapist (leaving aside the consistent incivility in all of his comments addressed to me). Some of my comments about his behaviour in that conversation might also be assessed as personal attacks or at least as incompatible with WP:AGF, even though I consider them to be simply accurate and fact-based assessments of the attitude that he has displayed in his interaction with me - briefly, harmful to the project (I'm sure he will oblige with relevant diffs if necessary). However, since he has expressed a desire for our discussion to be reported here (or else for the entire exchange to be deleted), I thought I might as well call attention to it, while making sure that the comments by both sides are taken into account.--87.126.23.210 (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:HistoryofIran, do you understand how inappropriate this edit was? Drmies (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well no, I assumed it was the right thing to do as the conversation wasn't exactly a proper one? --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, then I have to tell you that you were wrong, absolutely wrong. You were wrong with this edit already--or, if you want to be right about it, I will be happy to block you for violating NPA since it's very much like the things you said, but yours were worse. Drmies (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • No need to threaten me, I wasn't doing those removals in any bad faith. If you could link me the rules regarding this bit I would like to read it to know more about it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:25, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • As DESiegel says below, your comments were uncivil ("sad little person" is blockable, IMO) and no different from yours. You can't make comments of the kind that you also think are to be redacted from someone else's talk page. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ugh. "Go see a therapist"? I might have blocked you on the spot if I had seen that go by. Surely you don't need to be cited chapter and verse for that. But if you want a "rule" for why what you did was wrong, nothing in WP:RUC gives you a license to just remove an entire conversation from someone else's talk page. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) IP Editor 23.210, when you start a discussion about an editor or mentioning an editor here, you must notify that editor directly, as it says at the top of this page and in nteh edit notice. I have now notified HistoryofIran on your behalf.
While the language in the diffs you link to is certainly uncivil, I don't think it rises to the level of a personal attack. And a request that information be properly cited with sources is not out of line. Readers are not expected to use Google or other searches to determine if an article's content is correct, that is what citations are for on Wikipedia. I would have used a {{cn}} tag rather than simply reverting, but that is not a rule. Please bear this in mind.
All that siad, is there something you want us to do about this matter? DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:31, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He did, I just removed it, since I don't want more to do with him nor am I interested in taking much part in this topic tbh. Yes, I already knew that I wasn't no angel in this part, especially when Drmies comment enlighted me about that removal part. However, I suggest people to read the whole conversation (where his comments are arguably personal attacks, and looking at the last comment by the IP, it is clear that he brought this issue here to deliberately "hurt" me). Also, the IP didn't only add unsourced additions, he also changed actual sourced additions, albeit a minor one tbf. Do mind that he had already made uncivil accusations from the start [164]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) For your information HistoryofIran WP:TPO says Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism. This generally does not extend to messages that are merely uncivil; deletions of simple invective are controversial. Posts that may be considered disruptive in various ways are another borderline case and are usually best left as-is or archived. I would advise you not to blank entire topics in this way again. Neither party shows to great advantage in this exchange, in my view. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Alien autopsy

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I have just deleted alien autopsy with 800 edits. I think this may be a case where recent edits are copyvio but earlier ones are OK. I am not willing to spend time investigating but I hope another admin will be. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 09:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm a little confused. What is the source of the copyvio - your deletion notice just links to the copyright record of the video itself? Black Kite (talk) 10:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this may be a case where recent edits aren't copyvio either. You just speedied it, no questions asked, on the say-so of a user with 8 edits? —Cryptic 10:40, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to restore it for a second (it's still blanked using the CV tag) so I can use the copyvio detectors on it. Hang on... Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll be very much surprised if you find anything other than mirrors and reverse infringement. There's a clear line of development from the original 2002 stub, and the tagger's edit to talk shows his claim isn't credible or even relevant. —Cryptic 11:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. The main issue is this page, which is someone's own Google page. It was created, according to the "site changes" log, between early 2010 and 2014. However, the material claimed to be copyvio existed in the article well before that (I went back to 2007 and it was there then). The second one is this Listverse article, which is not a problem - it was created on 29/9/2011, when again the material already existed in the Wikipedia article. Then there's this, but this is OK because the article is just quoting a part of Jopson's email and it's well within limits. I am going to remove the copyvio banner and restore the article - OK, it's not a great article and needs a load of work, but it's not demonstrably a copyvio as far as I can see. Black Kite (talk) 11:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed the blanking / CSD. This ia a WP:SPA here to assert a change in the long-attributed ownership of an item from popular culture. Skepticism is justified, and it is reasonable to place the burden of proof on this user, especially per Black Kite's analysis above. Guy (help!) 11:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • From what I can tell, it's not copyright over the article that is disputed. Rather copyright over the film the article discusses. I don't think there is anything we can do here about that, the OP needs to take it up with the external party they're in dispute with. Nil Einne (talk) 12:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disputed and WP:BITEy block of new editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Rcorsini54 created a user page quoting four poems or song lyrics. C.Fred warned Rcorsini54here that Like I said, a line or two is fine, but the parts that look like they're full songs (or at least more than one verse) are probably in violation of policy. I will do you the courtesy of letting you clean them up, but technically, any user could remove them at any time. Rcorsini54 responded on User talk:C.Fred, (diff) saying Thank you, C. Fred... will clean them up. Rcorsini54 then (minutes later) cut the quotes down to 4-6 lines per song posted to the Teahouse asking Just wondering if the edits I made are ok content wise without putting up a complete song lyric. Shortly after that Bbb23 speedy deleted the user page User:Rcorsini54, under WP:CSD#U5, with no other editor having tagged this for speedy deletion. I honestly do not think that the final version meets the U5 standard of Extensive writings and material on topics having virtually no chance whatsoever of being directly useful to the project, its community, or an encyclopedia article. which is included in Wikipedia:User page#What may I not have in my user pages?. Rather it seems to me that this constituted A small and proportionate amount of suitable unrelated material ... such as (free use) pictures from Wikimedia Commons, favorite Wikipedia articles, or quotations that they like. as explicitly permitted by Wikipedia:User page#What may I have in my user pages?

Earlier, Rcorsini54 made edits to Pete Townshend and Adam Duritz (this and this), both were promptly reverted. Each was an apparent attempt to communicate with the article's subject. This is not helpful, but it is minor and easily explained -- however no one attempted to explain -- both edits were reverted with a minimal edit summery, and no note or warning, templated or manual, was placed on the user's talk page.

Not long after deleting the user page, Bbb23 blocked Rcorsini54 indefinitely for Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia; also disruptive and WP:CIR.

I posted to Bbb23's talk page, describing some of this and concluding with I ask that you reconsider the block, please. It seems to me that there is a WP:BITE issue here. The response was this A few other editors posted to thread, and I posted further, all easily visible. But Bbb23's latest response, posted as i was editing this, proposes to wait, leaving the block in place, until Rcorsini54 requests an unblock (assuming that s/he does request one}, and evaluate that, Bbb23 also said All that said, we have three administrators who disagree with my actions here. They haven't persuaded me to unblock, but they have fulfilled their responsibility to talk to me before taking any action. Why doesn't one of you just unblock the user. Accordingly I am about to unblock, but I would like community review of my actions. I want to be clear that I am in no sense seeking to "punish", and I assume good faith that Bbb23 believes the block justified. I would like to know if the community agrees that such a case justifies an indefinite block. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:04, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I was first admin on the scene, as it were, to this user. I saw his edits where he expressed his POVs on certain artists [165][166]. These weren't constructive edits, to be sure, but they weren't outright vandalism. The user had also started an autobiography in draft space. I pointed out that was a bad idea, and he assented for me to delete it, CSD G7. At that time, there were one or two small music quotations on his user space; however, the thing that caught my eye was the comment, I will begin populating with helpful info beginning January 1st 2020 for "clear vision!" That was enough to get his talk page on my watch list and to keep an eye on what he was up to, but it didn't create a direct problem.
The next day, he expanded his user page with additional song quotations; I cautioned him, in a non-templated fashion, about copyvio. The user then went to the teahouse to ask questions. All seemed well, IMO, until they said I think this is due to a multiple device look. It was 2... my 2 sons. I asked them not to login as me anymore. WP:LITTLEBROTHER is in the house. Bbb23 blocked a minute later.
This block seems like the nuclear option. The editor surely wasn't off to a good start, but I don't think he was beyond saving. I'm still willing to assume good faith in the user—and see if he rolls back the claim about his sons logging in when informed (gently, I would hope) that account sharing is not allowed and that compromised accounts can be blocked. —C.Fred (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
C.Fred The user was warned here in a response to the Teahouse post about the user page deletion. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:37, 25 October 2019 (UTC) @C.Fred:DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DESiegel: That message was 15 minutes after the block. —C.Fred (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No real opinion on the block, but the unilateral unblock without the agreement of the blocking admin was uncalled for and against policy. DESiegel should have taken it to AN first rather than unblocking and coming here. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing in the blocking policy (especially the section you linked) prohibiting reversal of an administrator action. Wheel-warring is forbidden, but a simple reversal isn't. Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) TonyBallioni, the comment, quoted above, by Bbb23 of Why doesn't one of you just unblock the user seems to be an invitation to do just that. I can to ANI rather than AN because I wanted a quick response in hopes of avoiding a BITE effect. I was originally going to simply describe the situation and ask for community consent to an unblock, when going to User talk:Bbb23 I read that comment (diff above) and changed my mind to unblock right after posting hre. I would also note the comments of other admins at the talk page, which I in no way solicited, seem to make the unblock not exactly unilateral. Must all unblocks now be approved at a notice board or by the blocking admin? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Multiple ecs, replying time Reaper Eternal) Disagree: the section below on unblock requests says if agreement can’t be come to, to take it to AN. Unilateral unblocks are highly discouraged. That being said, I was about to strike it, as Bbb23 said they could unblock, which I didn’t see. That being said, this thread seems like drama for the sake of drama since he said they could unblock... TonyBallioni (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The section of the policy page on responding to unblock requests says: administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter. If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard is recommended. It does not say that discussion must take place before the unblock, nor that ANI is not an acceptable venue. I think my record is fairly clear, I do not like drama for the sake of drama but when an action seems to me to violate policy or procedure and may occur again, I think that a community discussion is often a good way to clarify what should be done in similar cases going forward. I explained my motives above. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We have different readings, but as I said, Bbb23 was fine unblocking, so my criticism is moot. On the merits, I likely wouldn’t have blocked, but I also don’t really have much of an expectation that this user will be productive, so I probably wouldn’t have unblocked either. Now that they’ve been unblocked, I don’t see a point in reinstating the block. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the unblock. The block was a little too hasty—the user hadn't yet proven that he wasn't here to contribute. Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock and cleanup needed

2601:49:8402:EA20::/64 has left behind a massive dump of unsourced edits, mostly fiddling with birthdates in actor bios. What I've spot checked doesn't seem correct, e.g. [167]]. In any case today they've moved on to adding outright death hoaxes, complete with fake sources, so I'm not AGFing here. I've mass-rollbacked all the top edits, but there's probably lots more buried behind other edits that needs to be undone. I'll start, but would like some help. Thanks, all! Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's block evasion by Special:Contributions/2601:49:8401:f48b::/64. I'll try to do the clean up. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is cleaned up. As a bonus, I also range blocked another vandal. Thank you for reporting this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:23, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! That can be very tedious. For the record, 2601:49:8400:b377::/64 looks like this user's previous IP, but I guess there's too much collateral on ‎2601:49:8400::/46 for a block. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's very tedious. I volunteered to do stuff like this when I became an admin, though. Anyway, I can keep an eye on the IP range, but I don't think it's necessary to do any wider blocks right now. The collateral probably isn't all that bad, but those /64s seem to stay allocated for a very long time. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:55, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

rev war with users NorthBySouthBaranof‎ & Pepperbeast

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi.

I seem to be in a rev war with users NorthBySouthBaranof & Pepperbeast over the article Paternity_fraud. Also NorthBySouthBaranof's talk page. Care to take look? Thanks. If I here should inform NorthBySouthBaranof please say. --J. Sketter (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • J. Sketter, say. In the meantime, stop edit warring. Drmies (talk) 15:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, RS is not an "empty claim". It's how we work. I am beginning to think that there are some issues here--pertaining to OR, RS, BLP, and gender matters. Weird claims like "A woman can't cheat by mistake" bother me--and have you never heard of how King Arthur was conceived? I'm about to run to class and I wouldn't be surprised to find you topic banned by the time I get back. Drmies (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Gentle reminder that you are required to notify all users that you are reporting to WP:ANI, as I have just done for NorthBySouthBaranof and Pepperbeast. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think that J. Sketter is here to push an agenda, and that agenda includes misgendering subjects of articles, such as Zoe Quinn. "It is, we can mention she either wants or really thinks she has many persons in a single woman's body. But I guess there's no RS for her schizophrenia." and "Quinn's quest for plural noun is attention seeking or self-marketing" are particularly fun gems. They also refer to DS notices as "spam". --Jorm (talk) 16:02, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The OP's history at False accusations of rape is also particularly interesting for context given the similarities to the current dispute. --Jayron32 16:08, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have added userlinks and pagelinks at the top of this report. Thanks to the IP editor for notifying NBSB and Pepperbeast. EdJohnston (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Goodness gracious. Seems to me that the OP is someone who is WP:NOTHERE.--WaltCip (talk) 16:36, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just wait some of the admins to come to the real issue here. This heavy targeting by some block of users is interesting and I'm naturally flattered! As I see I'm against, let me count... 5 named users and 1 IP. I do count the 2 admins as nonpartial ones. Anyways, I return to this tomorrow I believe. So I can deal with every item in order. --J. Sketter (talk) 17:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I'm late to the party, but just wanted to concur with Jorm's comments. J. Sketter seems to fancy himself some kind of gender defender and has an obvious axe to grind. PepperBeast (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
J. Sketter - To clarify, I'm not against you. My only involvement was to notify the users you referenced of this thread, which is a mandatory requirement for anyone who posts here. Please don't lump me into any kind of conspiracy theory or accuse me of bias just because I followed a simple neutral rule that is posted at the top of the page. Thanks. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 17:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a topic ban from gender matters is the least we should do here.

    Oh, J. Sketter, you said you were waiting on us to get to the "real issue". Well, that's easy. You were edit warring. You removed a bunch of content that was strongly sourced, you were reverted, you reverted, you were reverted, you reverted again, you were reverted by another editor. You didn't post on the talk page until two hours later, and that post started with an insult: "As so often some editors like to debate for the joy of debating." So, what I see here is a couple of infractions, all of which are blockworthy already--edit warring, disruptive editing (against consensus of at least two editors), vandalism (removal of sourced content), lack of good faith (claiming they're just reverting for the sake of reverting. So I'll be happy to give you a warning for that: do not do any of those things again or you will be blocked. OK?

    But the real real issue is your apparent agenda-driven edits which fly in the face of various guidelines we have, and that is what you invited scrutiny of when you posted here, where I assume you were hoping to get those other two editors punished. We refer to this as the boomerang effect. And I reiterate that a topic ban on gender, very broadly defined, is a good thing for the project. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 18:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm not in a place where I can dig too deeply, but it looks to me like this editor is having problems in the area covered by the GamerGate set of discretionary sanctions, so pretty sure unilateral administrative topic bans (among other things) are fair game here. creffpublica creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 18:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no article more deeply affected by the GamerGate sanctions than Zoe Quinn, with perhaps the exception of Gamergate controversy, so yes. They are absolutely covered by that.--Jorm (talk) 19:08, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good point. I don't know if this user's conduct is necessarily driven by GG (though it's plausible) but the article itself definitely falls within the scope.GPL93 (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if not, "gender matters" is within the broadly-construed scope of the GG sanction. creffpublica creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 20:06, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. Drmies (talk) 00:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at their Quinn edits again and revdeleted them as BLP violations. Drmies (talk) 00:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am unsure why, given the content of the diffs Drmies has revdelled, the user has not already been indefinitely blocked. Fish+Karate 08:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, he's never been blocked or warned before so an indef block for a first offense might be considered a harsh reaction. I can definitely see both sides of the argument though so maybe Drmies is just waiting for the discussion to play out before taking additional action. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 13:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
IP, you're pretty much spot on: since I have been responding here and making an edit (and suggestion) or two, I think it is a good idea for me to await what others have to say. The user hasn't been warned, and I am unwilling to just drop the most serious sanction on this person, though I am not convinced that they are a net positive. User:Fish and karate, if you feel an indef block is warranted, go for it: that I haven't done it doesn't mean I'm against it. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I came here to clear a dispute in a article content and got this instead.
@Drmies I see you're threathning me with blocking partially based on rather made-up arguments:
You said // my response
- stop edit warring. // You may see I already did that by posting here
- RS is not an "empty claim". It's how we work. // If I dispute the connection between an article text and the source content it's not rejecting RS's, naturally. And there backing with a RS status is sidestepping the real issue.
- You didn't post on the talk page until two hours later // It's 13 minutes, and still I'm the only editor willing to discuss on the talk page
- lack of good faith (claiming they're just reverting for the sake of reverting) // if my opponents only argument is repeating "it's a RS", it naturally can lessen the good faith
Also I can't edit against a consensus when there had been only one user against my pow.
Further you make an baseless accusation my motive posting here was I "were hoping to get those other two editors punished"?? I'ts odd if an admin keeps a view that users' only motive to ask for admin help it to get his adversaries punished.--J. Sketter (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Jorm After the 2nd thought your notification was well-intentioned. I'll collapse them, thou.
Thanks for the IP for saving my trouble to notify NorthBySouthBaranof‎ & Pepperbeast. --J. Sketter (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At first you liked me indefinitely banned, so this proposal shows at least some wisdom on your part, Karatefish. You base your new proposal on the procedure (yesterday they were just guidelines, now we have some more dangerous juridical stuff to deal with - a ref not for cultural illiterates), but you should tell how I'm eligible for that by any of the six cases listed in [[168]].
Further. For the the Gamergate & multipersonal Quinn I don't care if you block me out of those topics {misgendering language redacted}}.
Further, Karatefish, you'd like to block me out of any articles in the constantly updated list Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Current_areas_of_conflict (I had to make this clear to myself and am sure a little bit of clarification helps other readers). I still have failed to read what are the edits you specifically considered to make your criteria? Personal dislike is not a valid reason. --J. Sketter (talk) 13:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since you're new here, you really need to take a step back and try to learn from what you're being told if you don't want to be blocked or banned. For starters, "just guidelines" suggests you don't understand how things work here. You can be blocked for persistently violating our guidelines in a way that is harmful, not least because doing so normally means you're violating some policy (e.g. WP:Edit warring). Please don't take "guidelines" to mean you're free to just ignore what they say.

And you were alerted of the discretionary sanctions regimes for both BLPs and gender or GamerGate related areas about 5 days ago [169]. Any of your actions since then which are considered by admins to come under the purview of the regimes can result in suitable sanctioned. While you cannot be sanctioned under the regimes for stuff occurring before the alerts were given, your actions before being alerted may still be relevant. If you persistent in causing the same problems now, we have more reason to think you're not going to stop.

Also, while you did open a talk page discussion at Talk:Paternity fraud I don't think you should get that high and mighty about it since you opened this ANI only about a day later. And you apparently removed sourced content when you had only read the abstract of the cited article.

In addition, opening a talk page discussion is not helpful when you're discussing something which has been discussed with extensively and you are not adding anything new to the discussion plus you're not even in the right place to change policy, such as with your comments at Zoe Quinn.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

J. Sketter, if you continue to use transphobic language and deliberately misgender someone, I will personally do whatever I can to ensure you receive the maximum sanctions that can be applied to you. I honestly think you should be blocked for that up there right now as you are obviously aware of the Gamergate sanctions and have just violated them. I am redacting your misgendering. --Jorm (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the fact that J. Sketter tried to remove discussion from this page and based on the user's diatribe above, something more than a topic ban may be in order. WMSR (talk) 23:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Topic ban per Fish & Karate. I'd action this myself but I'm on my mobile phone. I don't think there's any doubt that this is the correct course of action, especially given the editor's comments and removal of others comments here. Black Kite (talk) 00:10, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • TBAN per Fish & Karate with short rope towards further sanctions too, as J. Sketter's comments here have me unconvinced of their ability to edit constructively. Perhaps moving topics to one they feel less strongly about will help, if they are able to do that. Pinguinn 🐧 10:39, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:C. A. Russell: Unexplained damaging hostile action

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey, everyone. I'm here because I am alarmed by an instance of gratuitous hostility from C. A. Russell (talk · contribs).

Today, I visited an article called .NET Compiler Platform. I wanted to perform a certain change that I felt might be contentious. So, I took a discuss-first approach. In the article talk page, I requested C. A. Russell to clarify a couple of things in one of his messages. His answer was curt and a little hurtful, but I assumed good faith and took it to mean that he is simply no longer interested in pursuing the subject. I proceeded with editing the article.

His next action is extremely alarming, although one might not initially realize its gravity: He contacted User:Ermenrich and claimed that I am a sockpuppet of another user. I was initially confused because Ermenrich is not a SPI clerk or a CheckUser. So, I investigated a little bit. It all boils down to this: There is a certain person with whom Ermenrich has a not-so-rosy past feud. C. A. Russell intends to convince Ermenrich that I am that certain person, thus sparking a not-so-rosy feud between us. This course of malicious action has a higher chance of success than filing an official SPI report, since the latter requires strong behavioral evidence. After all, libel is cheap.

So, to summarize: I ask a user to clarify parts of one of his talk page message to me; his response is an act of character assassination. I did not know the humankind is capable of harboring such malice. If this editor is so terminally incapable of adhering to the fourth foundational principle of Wikipedia, he should be treated with a permanent ban. flowing dreams (talk page) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • What is going on here? I think this is the third time that someone invokes "libel" today. Drmies (talk) 01:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, never mind. I read your blog, that is your user page, where everything gets turned into "harassment" immediately; you seem to think that we're a free-speech zone or a free webhost. I don't know what beef you had with Trappist the monk but I kind of want to know, since Trappist the monk, as far as I know, NEVER has beef. But when it comes to ridiculous comments, maybe this takes the cake. Drmies (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, so they have some personal feud with Trappist? All that blogging and all that editing just to set up that run-in? That's charming. Drmies (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Karldmartini

Tumi luggage in aluminium
Dolce & Gabanna Sorrento sneaker animation

Based upon the clear consensus at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Karldmartini, I believe that Karldmartini (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) should be topic banned from adding product images that he has created to any Wikipedia article, but at the same time allowed to suggest on article talk pages that the images be added. I can repeat what was said at COIN here if required, but I think it is easier to simply read it there. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas.W - Honestly, those gifs are kind of cool. I don't know if they necessarily belong on Wikipedia though but I thought they were pretty neat. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Being "cool" and "neat" doesn't automatically make things suitable for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. - TomThomas.W talk 17:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No arguments here. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 18:01, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Karldmartini just responded at COIN, so we may want to see how that discussion turns out before doing anything here. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon (talk·contribs) - I don't know if you had a chance to see this on the WP:COIN page, but it looks like he thinks that you withdrew the initial offer that you made about the restriction on adding images directly to articles, but if you're OK with reinstating that offer and he is going to abide by it then this thread might end up being resolved in the near future. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 15:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has been 12 hours since I asked for a clarification.[170] I figure we should give him at least 48 before assuming that he isn't going to respond. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Karldmartini has contracted ANI Flu, so it is time to consider whether to impose a topic ban. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon - As I read it he agreed to the stipulation that you presented some time ago, and admits that he inadvertently violated it. Guy does have a point though...I did agree to firstly suggest they be added to "proposed changes' and yes, I did break this rule...quite flagrantly it seems! You may not believe me but I completely forgot about it. It was in May. It is now October.. Reading between the lines I think he does intend to follow that rule and simply slipped up in one instance, but will not do so again going forward. I don't think that he should be topic banned from suggesting images in article talk for other editors to consider and implement -- only topic banned from adding the images to articles himself. 208.185.237.210 (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"...topic banned from adding product images that he has created to any Wikipedia article, but at the same time allowed to suggest on article talk pages that the images be added." is the exact opposite of "...topic banned from suggesting images in article talk"
I don't buy the "reading between the lines". User:Ronz warned him in February of 2016. User:Kendall-K1 warned him in March of 2018. User:JSFarman warned him in March of 2018, I warned him in May of 2019. User:Johnuniq warned him in October of 2019. The edit summaries of his last two rotating image additions[171][172] made it crystal clear that he was well aware of the fact that multiple editors had disagreed with his previous rotating image additions and that he decided to do it anyway because they are wrong and he is right. And now, when I asked him for an explicit commitment to stop the objectionable behavior,[173][174] he went silent. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, close this and open a new report the next time he does it, close this with a warning, or impose a topic ban? I am good with any of these choices. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:27, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm afraid it's going to be the usual, namely nothing will happen here because it's under control. We'll just have to monitor what happens next and raise the issue again if needed. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sigh. I am definitely going to get the ANI flu the next time I get reported at ANI... It has been shown to be an excellent defense. :( --Guy Macon (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting an administrator strike uncivil comment directed towards me at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shinhan Bank Canada

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am contemplating reverting the comment made by @4meter4: in response to a reply I'd made—days earlier—to another Wikipedia user at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shinhan Bank Canada when I'd legitimately challenged the user's posting completely irrelevant links in an AfD discussion, but didn't know if that's the correct protocol. Nevertheless, I feel as though @4meter4:'s comment to me was uncivil, unnecessary, and may border on a personal attack. It does not belong in an AfD discussion. @4meter4: is most welcome to take this to my Talk page, if he felt it still needed to be addressed, but it doesn't belong in an AfD discussion.

Thanks, ---Doug Mehus (talk) 03:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One ping is enough. Anyway, it's pretty tame as far as incivility goes. I would just move on or ask for further clarifications on the user's talk page. El_C 04:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
El C, Thanks for the reply. Can I use the strikethrough wiki markup on that comment from 4meter4? It just bugged me that the user brought something back up which had been resolved days ago. I just think it's a problem with the editor not assuming I was acting good faith with respect to challenging my edits. In other cases, you'll note from the thank logs and my contributions that I've either thanked him via the edit log or agreed with him on other AfD discussions, so you can see I certainly don't have any personal or systemic problem with the editor.Doug Mehus (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, that would be inappropriate. Again, if you wish to query the user about their comment, their user talk page is place to do so. Also, no one can see another user's thanks logs — that function is strictly private. El_C 04:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@El C:, Oh I didn't know that that our 'thanks' is private information. So you, as an admin, can't even see when I thank another admin or editor for things? At any rate, I sent @4meter4: a wiki bear hug hoping we can move forward positively, and I'll just not reply to the comment in question. Doug Mehus (talk) 04:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, Doug. No, both pings and thanks are private — no one can see them but you. El_C 04:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware there was a ping log, but thanks logs are not private FYI Special:Log/thanks. I don't think there's a way to track down the specific edit, but you can see the timestamp of who thanked who. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rhododendrites: Thanks, yeah, I was certain I'd seen a 'thanks' log, but when @El C: said it was private, I assumed I'd only be able to see thanks I'd given or been given, but looking at that link, I can definitely see other users' recent 'thanks'. I'm also not sure where the ping log is—private or otherwise. I assume it's just in the notifications menu icon maybe?--Doug Mehus (talk) 04:56, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I stand corrected! El_C 05:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all. I think the comment was taken way more personally then I intended it. I am concerned that Dmehus has recently tried to get other people's opinions striked or altered at a few AFDs because he does not agree with the comments/opinions of others. It's getting to a point where I grimace at participating in an AFD with him. I don't believe it's his intention to be disrespectful or uncivil, but he is making it a difficult place for people with differing opinions to express themselves in a collaborative process. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Canada Computers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/First Nations Bank of Canada. I too have no personal vendetta against Dmehus, and we often do agree with one another. I just have a problem with the way he has demanded that other editors remarks be striked or demanded that they change their remarks. That is very disrespectful to other editors, and I felt the need to say something about his behavior toward User:Cunard, User:Carajou, and myself. Thanks for the wiki bear hug. I know we can get along going forward.4meter4 (talk) 04:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4: Thanks for your reply and kind words. Your rationale for commenting was helpful for me in knowing that it wasn't directed as a personal slight in some way. I think it would be helpful for me to explain why I had originally requested an admin strike Carajou's comment—there had been some odd coordinating AfD discussion activity in the NewtonX AfD discussion, so my question was to whether or not irrelevant comments and sourcing can be struck from discussions. It wasn't like the source provided was at least relevant to the article at hand - it wasn't; it was on some bitcoin company, CoinDesk, which seemed somewhat spammy to me and I really questioned why it was added. Nevertheless, @ThatMontrealIP: clarified for me, and indeed, in a previous admin noticeboard incident, another admin clarified that admins generally don't strike irrelevant/baseless AfD comments from AfD discussions because, as that admin put it, they'd be doing nothing else all day.
I hope that my explanation is helpful, and I do thank that admin and ThatMontrealIP for clarifying on when comments actually get struck.Doug Mehus (talk) 04:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus, I think when an editor has a sincerely held opinion about sources or notability in an AFD discussion that opinion should remain un-struck unless it is offensive or they willingly choose to retract it. That's just being curteous and keeping a safe environment for all editors to participate in. You can point out errors without having to demand to remove other peoples statements. We all have a voice and deserve the right to be heard and respected in community discussions. Just simply comment on the sources and leave it at that. It becomes too personal when you start demanding retractions. Keep it impartial by talking about the sources. Others will read and see it, including whoever cloeses the AFD. You don't need to shame or punish people for having a bad argument. Just Kindly state why you think it's wrong and the community will see and respond.4meter4 (talk) 04:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
4meter4, Yes, I realize that, but I hope you can appreciate from where I was coming. That said, with respect to Cunard's sources, my issue wasn't that the sources were irrelevant and I don't recall requesting Cunard's be struck. With regard to Carajou's, though, it was like citing McDonald's in a discussion on Salesforce.com. There wasn't even a tangential relevance; I guess I'm just of the view to striking such patent nonsense. Nevertheless, since then, I just challenge, as you suggest, such inaccurate statements but won't demand retractions anymore. Hope we can move forward positively now.Doug Mehus (talk) 04:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know we can. Most of the time we get along just great. You put a lot of thought into these discussions and are a valuable contributor at AFD. Just remember to allow people the room to have their own opinions, even if they seem ridiculous to you.4meter4 (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why not User:Dmehus just assume good faith, and assume that User:Carajou inserted the wrong URL into their link - which surely is the most likely scenario here - rather than denigrating them here without notifying them on their talk page, that they've been dragged into an ANI discussion? Also I don't see how noting concern about your aggressive interactions with other editors is a personal attack, or reason to drag everyone to ANI drama - threatening to delete or strike out another users comments because you don't agree with them, is surely unusual and aggressive editing! Nfitz (talk) 06:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question Since I initiated this request and it's been dealt with, can I close this, or does it need an admin to close? Doug Mehus (talk) 06:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Wikideas1 uploading screen grabs from the internet without proper copyright attribution

Wikideas1 (talk · contribs)

This guy is screenshotting websites and uploading the media using "Own work", when it is clearly a screen grab. He also adds his "politically biased" graphics to articles to further his agenda. Maybe have a look at this guy.

At the article Forklift he added some ridiculous design which doesn't even fit in the section or the article.

212.98.173.17 (talk) 06:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The reporter neglected to notify Wikideas1 about alleged licensing problems and did not notify Wikideas1 properly about this very thread. See talk:Forklift #"Container_mounted_forklift" for the content dispute in Forklift. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have reopened this as it seems to be an issue. I've posted Incnis Mrsi (talk · contribs) closing remarks above, and removed the "close tags". As stated clearly in the posting directions for this page the editor must be notified. I'll do so now. — Ched (talk) 10:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll also supply a couple of the diffs that seem to be in question:
  1. Forklift post - forklift pic
  2. Abortion in US by state - uploaded picture
  3. Incarceration in US - pic

These seem to indicate a pattern in last few months and IMO deserve discussion with regards to how appropriate the uploads and postings are. If Incnis Mrsi feels the IP is posting inappropriately, they should also provide diffs as AN and ANI posts look at behavior of all parties involved. — Ched (talk) 10:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is definitely my own work I create graphs using numbers for Mac. And to create the map I used pixelmator. Wikideas1 (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikideas1 - What about this image? Or this one? Looking at your user talk page on Commons, I see copyright violation warnings and numerous notices for deletions that go quite a ways back, and where the nominator cited similar problems (licensing and the claim of "own work"). What happens on commons isn't something that can be used to justify administrative action here, but local uploads that violate policy, as well as edits to articles that add images that are later shown to have licensing issues or are copyright violations can be. I suggest that we review this user's image uploads (both local uploads and commons uploads) and make sure that there are no other licensing issues or copyright violations that can be found. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 07:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've encountered issues with contents uploaded by this user while working on the article Union Pacific Railroad. One of the pictures was a screen capture sans logos from page 5 of the presentation hosted at https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-05/documents/jbhunt-trends-intermodal-freight-transport-05-2014.pdf. I found this ANI while reviewing that user's contribution. Despite being hosted on a Federal Government domain, the work is beyond obvious that it's not authored by the Federal Government. The image that the user asserted as public domain has since been removed from commons after I flagged it. It was https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Largest_domestic_53_foot_container_companies.png which this user added in this diff. For the 3D drawing, every one of them they uploaded have link to his 3D Warehouse profile and it almost looks as if he's trying to promote his 3D drawing. On their 3D warehouse descriptions, they don't state that they've released it to the public domain and the TOU for the 3D Warehouse says "Can I print a model on a 3D printer? Answer: Yes. But the commercial sale of exact, physical reproductions of models is not permitted." Well, that's not consistent with the "public domain" licensing. Graywalls (talk) 10:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor spamming user talk pages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

115.78.230.128.

(FWIW, Akane Yamaguchi already has 30 citations.) Narky Blert (talk) 07:59, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well that was quick, mass-reverted and blocked just as I posted :-). Narky Blert (talk) 08:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sca and an 'enemies list'

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Colleagues, This may only be a minor point, but I have twice asked Sca to remove what can only be seen as an 'enemies list' from his talk page. I had a minor disagreement over the renaming of the 2019 Grays incident article (and the applicability of WP:TITLEVAR in using the British term term "Lorry").

The following day I went to his talk page to apologise if I came across as terse, when I saw the message "This page, and its archives, may not be edited under any circumstances by users Fgf10, Wakari07, Davey2116, Nfitz or SchroCat". (Looking in the history, "this edit added me to the list which, at the time, included The Rambling Man, Fgf10, Wakari07, Davey2116 and myself. A subsequent edit removed TRM but added Nfitz to the list in his place - Nfitz also countered Sca's position on the Gray's title, and appears to be the only interaction between the two of them, but I haven't gone through the full history). I politely asked Sca (from my own talk page) to remove the notice, but he did not. I left a message on his talk page repeating the request, but this has also been ignored. (For the record, that was only my second edit to that page, the previous one was a 'Happy Christmas' message in 2015). I have no desire to post on that page again (aside from the necessary ANI notification).

I believe such 'enemies lists' are frowned upon (as seen with this matter) for being polemic in outlook and uncollegiate in spirit. Thanks – SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We tend to respect that editors can request someone else not post to their talkpage. Making that request should be sufficient on its own, without documenting it at the top of the page. Sca, if you ask someone not to post there, the burden is on that person to remember, and if they do it anyway then you can bring them to ANI. So no particularly good reason to keep such a list, it seems. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:44, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't even realised I'd been released from the dreadful guilt and harassment. But nevertheless, I saw it much more as a reflection of Sca rather than a reflection of the people he considered "banned" from his talkpage, so I never really thought twice about it, despite Sca feeling fine with interacting with me and mentioning me many times and in many places across Wikipedia. Having been removed from the banned list, I can now rejoice in my new-found love of Wikipedia! The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:01, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Basically User:Sca lost an argument over WP:ENGVAR and is now going to throw their toys out of the pram.In light of their approach, is there any reason you'd want to post there; after all, discussion takes place on the talk article page. Which will soon, of course, be getting moved to its new title. ——SerialNumber54129 17:09, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely no reason I'd post there at all, which makes it all the more bizarre to ban me from the page. The only reason I went there in the first place (and saw the note by accident) was to apologise of coming across as terse. I don't think that message would be welcome now! - SchroCat (talk) 17:16, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat recently has posted argumentative comments in reply to my posts about legitimate editorial subjects, particularly those related to the Grays Incident – especially on the Grays talk page. Upon reflection, I concluded any further interaction with SchroCat would be counter-productive and pointless, and added him to those users prohibited from posting on my talk page – this, in order to obviate possible future use of said page as a forum for argumentation on his part.
For my part, in the interest of harmony, I hereby undertake not to post on SchroCat's talk page or to engage with him elsewhere on Wikipedia. (I would welcome a no-contact order affecting both of us.)
Regarding TRM's comment, he and I formerly had an unpleasant history of conflict, but in recent years he has mellowed and we've had no disputes of note. Indeed we occasionally cooperate at WP:ITN/C. I'd been thinking for some time of removing him from the do-not-edit note on my talk, and did so coincidentally with adding SchroCat.
The do-not-edit note is by no means an "enemies list," as SchroCat polemically asserts. It is solely an effort to avoid fruitless argumentation. (Other users listed there reflect serious past conflicts.)
My ideal for WP users/editors is collegial harmony. – Sca (talk) 19:31, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not particularly about the lorry deaths, only about the lorry deaths in the past 12 months or so. Ditto for Nfitz. These weren't "argumentative comments": they were disagreeing with someone who decided not to bother with our guidelines. Ditto for Nfitz. Considering we operate in entirely separate spheres of interest, the offer of "a no-contact order" is laughable. Just take the enemies list off your talk page, as I've asked and others have advised. It's uncollegiate, unco-operative and completely unnecessary. I know you don't want me to post on your talk page: I get that, and considering the only comment I'd made on your talk page before that note was a Christmas message, I don't know what you were trying to prove. If your aim is "collegial harmony", as you claim, in what way is "A stupid, annoying comment" an example of that? - SchroCat (talk) 19:47, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think "collegial harmony" is facilitated by you displaying such a list. As for a formal interaction ban, I get the sense that such a remedy would be premature at this time. But I also get the sense that this will be informally subscribed to, anyway. El_C 19:39, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a little baffled on this, as I don't even recognize the name of User:Sca. Digging deeper, we had a brief, and I thought civil and thoroughly forgettable exchange the other day at Talk:2019 Grays incident about not needing to change titles of British articles to not use British English. The exchange was pretty much me saying why, him responding that 75% of the world don't understand what a "lorry" is, and me pointing out that most English speakers live in Asia, and know what a lorry is, and tagging them to ask how they get 75% - to which there was no response. Obviously this can't be about that, as I don't think I've ever looked at their talk page before, and can't find any edits by myself ... can User:Sca tell me what previous encounter I've forgotten - I'm not finding much, but "Sca" isn't the best search term. Sorry to have to ask this - but I do have some memory gaps from the 2015-2017 period, when I was having some health issues - I have no doubt it's me that's forgotten! Nfitz (talk) 23:29, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The text is unhelpful in a collaborative community, and it is factually incorrect. If one of the named editors raised an issue concerning Sca at a noticeboard, policy would require the editor to post a notice at Sca's talk—there is no such thing as "under any circumstances" at Wikipedia. Regardless of that, posting an enemies list is a violation of WP:POLEMIC and the text must be removed. Johnuniq (talk) 00:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • By longstanding practice the community has made it clear that editors may, within reason and with obvious exceptions, tell other editors not to post on their talk page. While I discourage the practice in all but the rarest cases as it creates a road block to communication, sometimes I acknowledge it is the lesser of evils. (Full disclosure, over the years I have asked two editors not to post on my page.) Obviously there are going to be exceptions as noted above. If there is an established rule for how to go about this I'm not aware of it. But to my mind, posting a list of the excommunicated may not be the best way. I'd suggest a polite note while pinging the other editor and letting it go at that. On which note, I have always interpreted such requests as a defacto severing of diplomatic relations and that is not a one way street. On the rare occasions when I've run into editors who tell someone to stay off their TP and then turn around and continue to post on the other's, I have made my disapproval known. As for this specific case, whether or not Sca's list is a good idea may be debatable, but I'm not seeing a convincing argument that anything here is actionable. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO the list should be removed as per POLEMIC, Given some noticeboards explicitly state notices must be given it sort of makes Sca's notice void/invalid, List should be kept off wiki imho. –Davey2010Talk 01:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As others have said, it's generally accepted that when someone asks another editor to stay away from their talk page, this should be respected with reasonable exceptions like compulsory notices. The editor 'banned' should remember the request and if the persist on violating it, they're likely to be sanctioned for it. Since it's not a formal interaction ban, if an editor barely engages with another and forgets about the request after a year and violates it, the editor who made the request can just remind them if they still wish it to be in place. It's not necessary to include any sort of notice on the talk page listing the editors, and such lists should be removed given the problems they cause.

    As has also been said, if you want an editor to stay away from you, you should stay away from them. This includes not posting on their talk page except in cases when it would be acceptable for them to post on yours. And limiting any discussion of them or their behaviour. On your talk page, you should basically never discuss the editor, not even obliquely. If someone else brings them up, remove it or at least tell the person who brought it up you will not discuss it and ask not to post about the editor any more. On article talk pages and similar, discussion of user behaviour is often off-topic anyway and while there's some tolerance of it when it's directly relevant to disputed content, it's problematic to do so when the editor cannot discuss your comments of their behaviour directly with you. On noticeboards like AN, you can mostly post like normal. Although you may want to at least tell people you banned the other editor from your talk page. And you should harder than normal to ensure your comments have some relevance to deciding what to do about some situation.

    For the user who was 'banned', it's more complicated. We don't want editors to escape sanction or scrutiny simply by 'banning' people. But at the same time, given a desire to disengage, if the discussion seems more needling than useful scrutiny, this is likely to be taken more harshly than normal. Ultimately since it's not a formal interaction ban, the editor who issued the ban is free to remove it if they feel they want to engage more directly with the editor 'banned' over their concerns. (Again, game playing like persistently 'unbanning', saying something, than 'banning' again is likely to be perceived poorly.)

    I would add that while I think many of us can understand it coming up once or twice, if you've felt the need to 'ban' 6 people from your talk page, there's a fair chance this speaks more of you than of them. In addition, even if you do ask someone to stay away from your talk page, it's generally expected this arises because of actual disputes you've had on your talk page such that you don't welcome further communication there. Rarely I can imagine it arising from dispute on the other editor's talk page. It arising from disputes you've had in other places seems something that would be very rare. If it's happening a lot to you, again maybe consider what this reflects on your editing here.

    Nil Einne (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we've all seen people banned from talk pages, because of what is said on each others talk pages. Not sure that's the issue here. I've ran the interaction tool, and some other searches, and the closest that Sca and I have ever come to each other before a brief and civil exchange yesterday on a mainspace talk page, was that we both posted on the same Admin's talk page, 2 weeks apart, in September 2006, in two different threads. Surely simply and politely pointing out an error in assumption in a forgettable discussion on a minor style issue, during a rename debate, isn't worthy of being banned from someone's page, you've never looked at before. How is that not a violation of WP:5P4 - unless it's some case of mistaken identity. This is a collaborative project, and blocking collaboration on trivial issues doesn't work. At the same time User:Sca has a 15-year long unblemished block history (the one block appearing to have been erroneous) - so I can only assume that this isn't typical. I remain baffled on how I got swept up in this (and how I've never encountered Sca in 15 years - presumably we edit in different circles). Nfitz (talk) 04:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Apologies for being late to this discussion. As I'm one of the users on the "enemies list" I was curious as to what caused me to be put on. I found that I was added to the list on January 9 of this year (although I did not find out until today). I interact with Sca solely on the ITN/C board, so given the timestamp it appears that this discussion, on whether to post a coup d'état attempt in Gabon, was the one that earned me this coveted distinction. From the fact that Wakari07 was added at the same time as me, I surmise that the exact exchange in question is:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  • Comment Incidentally, where's the "systemic bias" crowd? They're everywhere when we're trying to post the James Comey firing or the Kavanaugh confirmation or a freaking government shutdown (18 days and counting), saying we wouldn't post a corresponding event from a small African country. But now when there's a coup attempt in a small African country, there's no one saying we wouldn't not post a corresponding event from a Western country. What gives? Davey2116 (talk) 23:46, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Davey's user page is blank. What gives? Sca (talk) 02:46, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Sca: that's not an argument, and I think you know that. Wakari07 (talk) 09:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Personal user pages are optional. Not creating one doesn't mean you're not allowed to comment on talk pages. If Davey2116 is a newcomer, you should know not to WP:BITE them over not doing something that's not even required & has nothing to do with the discussion. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ 17:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This "user page is blank" business was some sort of long-running slightly-bizarre joke played by Sca on several ITN/C frequenters. (See this cryptic message left on my talk page.) I've always interpreted it as some good-natured fun. Regardless, it seems to be a small thing to be banned from his talk page over. Or perhaps Wakari07 and I were banned simply for our support for posting the ITN item, while Sca opposed it; but then why were we singled out among all of the !supports?
The thing is, none of the interactions I've had with Sca at ITN/C, including that one, seemed particularly negative or uncivil. In my estimation we've agreed and disagreed on ITN nominations in roughly equal proportion, and we had that hilarious exchange on the spelling bee, months after I was banished from his talk page. So it baffles me that I've been one of just four to six people on his banned list, this whole time. I haven't had occasion to leave a message on Sca's talk page (and I do not foresee that I will) so in practice whether I will be removed from the list or not makes no difference. However, some explanation would be appreciated, just for closure's sake. Davey2116 (talk) 09:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My, my, 1,800 words in response to my 200. You-all are wearing me out. (I can say it that way 'cause I once lived in Kentucky.)
I'm going to remove Wakari07, Davey2116 and Nfitz from my do-not-edit note, although I suggest that Nfitz and I agree to avoid such terms as "complete nonsense" in future exchanges. I'm also going to remove the phrase "under any circumstances," which I had borrowed from a friend, Hafspajen, who had been subjected to harassment by certain users. (Alas, "Haffy" is no longer active on Wiki.)
Re Fgf10, we haven't had any interaction since I listed him in my my do-not-edit note three years ago, and I prefer to keep it that way.
Similarly, SchroCat will continue to be listed for the time being. If SchroCat and I avoid unpleasant arguments elsewhere for some time, I'll consider removing him.
Happy Halloween. – Sca (talk) 12:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should take account of all the above neutrals saying how inappropriate the list is, regardless of who is on it, or your motivation in putting them on there - 1,800 words in response to your 200 should be an indication that you are not acting very well here. You seem to be displaying signs of WP:ICANTHEARYOU; maybe you should read through the thread again to see just who says it's a good idea to have the list.
I cannot remember ever having had any negative interaction with you, except over this one article, and that is fairly minor (My memory may be playing me false, but I cannot remember any). Are you that thin-skinned that you have to create a divisive and disruptive list just because someone says the better path is the one that it guideline-compliant, despite you disagreeing with it? Delete the list in its entirity please: I have no intention of interacting with you or of posting on your talk page: I promise not to send you a happy Christmas note again, which was the only time I posted except to ask you to remove that list. - SchroCat (talk) 13:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. Please remove the YouTube link from your thread above and from your talk page: the material is still in copyright, I think, so it fails WP:LINKVIO. - SchroCat (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Complete nonsense" might not be the best phrasing, but it was in context to the other user I was replying to. Though I remain unaware of how you think that 75% of English speakers don't know what a "lorry" is, given that there's only 1 or 2 nations, that don't use the word. Or why your are ignoring the very clear WP:TITLEVAR policy. Not sure why not simply express concern rather than making polemic personal attacks. Nfitz (talk) 20:21, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oooh I'm on an enemies list? I'm deeply honoured. I have no clue why I would be on there, but given Sca's normally abrasive and unhelpful behaviour, I'm sure it was for a good cause, probably an attempt to counter systematic bias on my behalf. Not bothered in the slightest by being on a such a childish and pathetic list, in case anyone is wondering. It did make me laugh, so that's a postive, I guess. Fgf10 (talk) 17:30, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well there is a notable precedent for seeing enemies where there are none :) ——SerialNumber54129 20:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is perfectly acceptable to explicitly list editors who are not allowed post on your talk page (indeed, it's preferable to randomly saying "I thought I told you last time to STAY AWAY!!!!!!!" out of the blue, like some people I could name have done). Additionally, the term "enemies list" being applied in an ANI header and OP comment, without any apparent inline clarification of what it is (I had to click the diff), is misleading and needlessly inflammatory, and activated my PTSD from this incident (where a disruptive editor claimed that an SPI draft I was working on constituted an "enemies list", despite his considering himself to be my enemy and not being on it...) -- can we just auto-boomerang editors who use words like "enemies list" for list of people forbidden from posting on a talk page, obvious SPI drafts, etc.? Hijiri 88 (やや) 01:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given the overall tenor of this thread, I'm sure you know the answer to your question. Lepricavark (talk) 02:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've never heard, User:Hijiri88 of having a list of people who can't post on ones talk page, when the majority of the people on the list have never posted on either party's talk page ever. Are there other examples? Though, we are probably hitting the "move on" stage of this discussion ... Nfitz (talk) 04:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I briefly placed such a list on my talk page (or considered before stopping halfway through...). The list would have almost certainly included Beyond My Ken, who at that time had only ever posted on my talk page twice,[175] and GoldenRing, who had never posted on my talk page, due to my then-ongoing conflict with both of those users on ANI. People can forbid others from posting on their talk page for whatever reason they wish, and unless serious evidence of bad faith is presented, there should be no question of sanctioning editors for doing so. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:08, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No-one is stopping people from requesting not to post on their talk page and no-one is asking for sanctions. What is being asked for is the removal of the list, which tend to be frowned upon for being uncollegiate and divisive. POLEMIC is the guideline. (And COPYVIO for the removal of the copyright violating YouTube link here and on the talk page too. - SchroCat (talk) 06:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I think it somewhat muddies the waters by bringing up copyright (as you have done twice). A lot of editors are not familiar with the blanket ban on linking YouTube videos that are presumed to violate copyright, and it is basically unrelated to the point of this thread (which is to get Sca to remove the so-called "enemies list", with the presumed consequence of not doing so being a block). Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No-one is talk ing about a block except you: that should be set aside as being a rather silly step to take and one I would not want to see happen. Sca should remove the list from his talk page. While he is doing that, he should also remove the COPYVIO. Yes, there are two slightly separate points, but there is no water-muddying going on. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No-one is talk ing about a block except you You come to ANI to request blocks. Bans and other restrictions are traditionally sought at AN. Unless an OP explicitly states that the administrative action they are looking for is a "warning" or a "post this on this person's talk page because I'm not allowed to", it is assumed that what is being requested is a block. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"You come to ANI to request blocks": nonsense. You come to ANI to have situations resolved. It has been resolved here to the satisfaction of most with no blocks or punishment - an ideal resolution. There is no other forum to have problems like this resolved, and not everything needs a big stick to end it. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not an "enemies list" (as Sca said) does not mean it does not violate POLEMIC. In my reading of the guideline, inclusion of an "enemies list" (or a "please do not edit my talk page" list) does indeed violate its spirit and should ideally be removed. Also noting, ofcourse that there is no rule that states that editors cannot edit another's if asked to or that an editor cannot ask other editors to not edit their talk page. This is borderline POLEMIC but is there really something that needs administrative action here? The easiest resolution would be for Sca to remove the list and just ask these editors to stay off their TP via email (or something). --qedk (t c) 11:17, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd think getting a random email telling one to stay off a talk page that one has never visited before would be far worse than having a note at the top of page that one has never visited before. The former seems agressive, while the latter seems passive. Nfitz (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I's agree that an email would be worse. A ping or a brief message should suffice, rather than an enemies list. In this particular situation I think people now know where everyone is. The only thing left is for Sca to remove the list from their talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 12:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't the easiest resolution be for Sca to stop imposing talk page bans over content disputes that didn't even involve their own talk page? Lepricavark (talk) 13:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It probably would, but I think there is a difference between keeping an open list (which goes against the guidelines) and a desire not to have conflict brought to ones own talk page (which I think may have been his intention - at least that is my take from his first response in this thread). There was absolutely no danger of that in this case, but I think it's not unreasonable that people would like to avoid interaction on their own talk page if possible. (I realise I may not be phrasing this terribly well, but I hope you get the gist, at least). - SchroCat (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Still doesn't change the fact that this is a non-issue. Any editor can ask another editor to stay off their talk page (or any page), the implications are meaningless as there is no hard and fast rule that states you have to abide by it. It's not in the spirit of a collaborative environment but nothing here would have had any real difference in the working of the world really. Time to close this up and move on, imo. --qedk (t c) 16:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • My explanation is here[176] and I think this resolves it if Sca accepts my edit. Jehochman Talk 13:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done The following request was posted on the talk pages of SchroCat and Fgf10:
"In relation to my ANB case, I hereby ask you not to post on my talk page. Thanks."
Sca (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PS:Jehochman et al., are we going to prohibit do-not-edit talk-page notes Wikipedia-wide? – Sca (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to encourage instruction creep, but I would give the same advice in any parallel situation. The best way to handle it is the leave the other editor a communication which they can read and delete. Jehochman Talk 16:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that is the answer User:Jehochman. I don't want to be emailed, or pinged, or messaged on my talk page, by someone I've barely remember, nor had any negative interaction with, to stay off a talk page I've never looked at. I'd much sooner they leave a note on their talk page, which is merely odd - rather than messaging me, which surely violates WP:CIVIL. If there were previous issues sure - but most of the people on this list, weren't even aware of it, or what had lead to it. This seems far worse to me, than making the list on the talk page - for which there doesn't seem to be any rules against. Nfitz (talk) 17:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you'd like to be on a list on Sca's talk page, by all means he can put you on such a list. The issue I'm addressing is if the person on the list objects to being talked about on a page where they are expected not to reply. Your position is unexpected, but if you like it that way, fine with me. Jehochman Talk 17:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your position is baffling, primarily because you can't restrict anyone for anything on a say-so basis. Sure, you don't want to be notified in anyway but if they wish to, they still can. It does not violate CIVIL's letter (maybe its spirit at best) to tell another editor to stay off any page, it's just meaningless - because you would be under no obligation to do as I asked. CIVIL would be if the way it was said was particularly uncivil. --qedk (t c) 19:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's baffling? 3 of the 5 people on the "list" were not aware of it, had never been on his talk page, thought that everything was civil, and would have no reason to be aware of the "ban" ever. Ska and I have both been editing here for about 15 years, without ever encountering each other before - and I didn't even know who he was, when I was alerted to this thread. Personally, I'd have preferred if I'd never known about it - and I don't think encouraging Ska to start notifying people rather than keeping his quiet list, is going to help - it's more likely to cause more negative interactions - and potentially complaints about unnecessary warnings. Really though - I think this discussion can be closed as without any decision, as there's not much to be done.. Nfitz (talk) 01:24, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just as a reminder to all concerned parties, none of the above time-sink happens if Sca had not issued a few wholly unnecessary talk page bans for reasons that weren't even related to Sca's talk page. As I understand it, Sca had a firm yet civil disagreement with these editors. That's not a reason to ban someone from your talk page. This is hardly collaborative behavior and we shouldn't be encouraging it. Lepricavark (talk) 00:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wish I could be someone's enemy... *kicks rock sullenly* HalfShadow 00:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC) DoneNfitz (talk) 01:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hey HalfShadow, you're sitting alone, want to be enemies? It's like elementary school all over again!creffett (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can I kick puppies, grow a long, greasy mustache and laugh wickedly while I stroke it? I take my fun where I can find it. HalfShadow 02:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, this kind of IDHT behaviour over the copyvio links has me a little concerned. He replaced the link I removed with a different one that might be okay (Gounod died in 1893 so his work is all presumably public domain, but I see no reason to assume that recording is, and I'm not sure about the legality of uploading copies of legitimately purchased commercial recordings of public domain music onto YouTube). But this one is still live, and he has shown no intention of removing it. I can't remove it because I'm pretty sure I'm also on his ban list right now. The ban list issue appears to have been resolved by User:Jehochman, but given that it happened on ANI, has been going on for months, and shows no signs of stopping, I think we really should also demand a statement from Sca that he understands why what the YouTube links were inappropriate and that he doesn't intend to do so again. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well aren't we all wasting a lot of time on this? Sca, if I ever found a reason to post on your talk page - not that I see why I would, or think I actually evenrhave - I will most certainly do so. Anyway, If Sca wants to feel persucuted or whatever, let them. Not for us to worry about. Shall we close this nonsenes and all go back to ignoring Sca? Fgf10 (talk) 09:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Multiple disruptive behaviours

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is in regards to the varied and intractable disruption caused by User:Baburjahangir:

  • Continual unsourced changes to articles and removal of sourced content in spite of several warnings.[177][178][179][180]
  • Very likely used a separate IP account in order to make edits (based on the similarity between editing habits), in spite of warning. The IP in question is User:223.185.31.203.
  • Created a string of articles which ranged from non-notable to down-right false. These were solely composed of unsourced infoboxes which contained images of completely different individuals and events. All have been (or are in the process of being) speedly deleted.
  • Added infoboxes to existing articles which were not backed up by sources and/or contained unrelated images.[181][182]
  • Repeatedly blanked articles and replaced them solely with infoboxes, again containing irrelevant images.[183][184][185]
    Alivardi (talk) 11:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the mobile diff links in the post above to regular diffs for readability. --bonadea contributions talk 11:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abusive language and threats

I have no idea how to handle this. Someone is posting the most vile accusations and threats in a talk page. I’d like assistance please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Special_Task_Force_(SAPS)

My advice to you, BoonDock, would be not to engage in conversations like that in the first place. The IP editor is not making a suggestion about how to improve the article, just soapboxing - the best thing to do would have been to remove their comment with an edit summary along the lines of 'Remove soapboxing; talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article'. As for now, I'd advise you to disengage and apply WP:DENY - just ignore them. I'll remove the thread now, and warn the IP. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 17:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you BoonDock (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTFORUM too is grounds for instant removal. Which sounds a little Judge Dredd, but you get the gist. ——SerialNumber54129 17:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
True - that's another classic. Favonian has also blocked for 48 hours for the PAs, I've removed the thread - I think we're done. GirthSummit (blether) 17:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

LG-Gunther and sock tagging

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

LG-Gunther (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I won't name any other names here for the purposes of WP:DENY, but my beef here is that said editor, while he may have meant well, kept on tagging sockpuppet accounts of a certain long-term abuser even though that did more harm than good, i.e. unwanted attention from said LTA. I've already filed an MfD request before, using this as precedent; problem was that I didn't word it right enough to merit a delete consensus. And even if I did make a successful MFD, I'm worried that LG-Gunther would disregard the consensus and (unwittingly) tag the pages regardless despite the troll craving for such attention. Blake Gripling (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@LG-Gunther: please leave tagging to checkusers and SPI clerks. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@LG-Gunther: As mentioned above, tagging users should be left for others—please do not do any more tagging such as the 16 pages in the last five weeks. The most recent of those have also been tagged for speedy delete. I would support deleting all of them. Johnuniq (talk) 06:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Blakegripling ph: yes will be delete as sock of User:My Royal Young accounts and otherwise should to delete. LG-Gunther : Talk 09:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnuniq: sure thing i got using these delete as WP:MfD for delete as sock of User:My Royal Young

LG-Gunther has now gone off to MfD nominate about 30 user pages they had already put the sock tag on, see page creation log. I've asked them to stop doing that, but would it be possible to batch close the MfDs, which fill no function and just clog up the process? --bonadea contributions talk 09:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather consolidate it to a single MFD and be done with it as there's no point with keeping and/or tagging sock account pages as, well, socks given the attention it is soliciting. To be honest LG-Gunther, while he has the heart and willingness to help, has some difficulty with policies and whatnot. I'm not going to spite or ridicule him for this though; I just wanted to be a bit frank and set things straight about this ordeal. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do you want to procedural close the ones at MFD and have LG-Gunther and Blake Gripling work directly with SPI clerks to do the appropriate tagging or speedy deleting if appropriate? AngusWOOF (barksniff) 17:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the articles in question. I'm not sure if it needs to be proc closed and updated separately, or they can be handled en masse here. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 17:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have two brief comments. First, I would like to thank User:Blake Gripling for bringing this MFD mess to the attention of admins and SPI clerks by posting it here. Second, I would like to suggest that User:LG-Gunther may need admonition or mentoring, or, unfortunately, a competency block. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing i thing so that using as Since September 18, 2019 as Personal Attack to me as Sock of User:My Royal Young and clearly like even violently everything. LG-Gunther : Talk 19:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What a mess. Since when does WP:DENY say to create dozens of pointless MFDs. I've deleted the 24 userpages listed above, which consisted solely of sock tags and MfD tags (and in some cases vandalism), under a combination of G3 and G7. I've also deleted/removed the MfD nominations as they are moot. I'm having some trouble parsing Lg-Gunther's comments here, so I can only hope that they understand not to tag socks that someone else has already blocked without tagging, and that they will seek advice from a more experienced editor if they ever feel the need to create a large number of XfDs, as grouping related pages into a single nomination would have been less disruptive. Another admin can feel free to close this as resolved if they don't believe that any further action is needed. ST47 (talk) 19:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi

Special:Contributions/70.115.139.248

Disgruntled IP using foul and unnecessary language across the talk page

Special:MobileDiff/923248193 Special:MobileDiff/923248545

There's more. Its the only thing the IP has done is respond to every talk subject — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slywriter (talkcontribs) 20:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed these unconstructive comments. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

_Any_ features mention in Retrospect (software) turns article into PR "advertisement", claims Guy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Here's the relevant section of the Retrospect (software) Talk page. For those of you who insist on diffs, here's one, but the difference part—not the lengthy "latest revision" part—leaves out a a few preliminary comments in the relevant section (because old sections of the page had been archived immediately before the starting point for the diff, so a diff that went any further back was really unreadable).

Dirk Beetstra stated Guy's peculiar non-WP-established definition most clearly: "Just to pile on: the 'standard features' and 'editions and add-ons' in this version just do not show why they have to be in the article, verifiable existence is not an inclusion standard, it should be relevant (and for thát you need independent, reliable sources showing that relevance). As it stands in that version, it is just an indiscriminate collection of information. You will have to show specifically why a certain feature is so special, not just that it exists. Listing features and add-ons here is just promotional material (even when not written with a reason to promote). (and yes, I do note that a lot of other similar articles have the same indiscriminate material, and that should also be removed)."

Farther down the section Dirk strengthened their non-WP-established definition even further: "DovidBenAvraham, I have just one answer: I challenge the statement that the features are special, it is to you to show that they are indeed special. That is what is reflected in all our sourcing policies and guidelines. Mere existence alone, even if verifiable, is not worth mentioning. I can believe that some of the features are 'special', but you'll have to show that they are special. That also likely boils the list down to a smaller size, and that is probably better worked out in prose than in a list-like format."

Dirk was most specific about the definition when he stated still farther down: "... but you keep on pushing these features into the article which strongly suggests that they are special. WP:V: '... and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations' .. our challenge is that they are not worth mentioning, if they are to be included one needs an independent, reliable source to show that they are somehow special. That is also in line with WP:LSC's 'criteria for inclusion should factor in encyclopedic and topical relevance, not just verifiable existence.'" The problem with WP:V: is that that entire article doesn't say anything about inclusion implying that an item is "somehow special". The problem with WP:LSC is that it states "For example, if reliable sources indicate that a complete list would include the names of ten notable businesses and two non-notable businesses, then you are not required to omit the two non-notable businesses."

In my last version of the article I did a reduction in features sections to "special"-only—meaning not usual in consumer backup applications. I also eliminated any cites of a 2009 TidBITS article that Dirk thought had a conflict of interest, because it offered a discount for Retrospect ordered through that website. Lastly I eliminated all first-party feature cites, even though these were to Retrospect Inc. user documentation—and IMHO those should be allowed under "The organization's own website is an acceptable (although possibly incomplete) primary source for information about what the company says about itself and for most basic facts about its history, products [my emphasis], employees, finances, and facilities."

However the real focus of this ANI is Guy, because from 12 September 2019 on he did very substantial actual deletions from the article. His first Edit Summary notation for a deletion was "There is clear consensus on ANI and elsewhere that the level of detail here is excessive, the content promotional, and the sources lack intellectual independence (press releases / publications by Retrospect." Guy's next principle-driven Edit Summary notation (embedded within a couple of deletions of extensive quoting—which I had put in to guide a reader—in extensive second-party source articles) were "rm more PR". His last pair of principle-driven deletions were from this later article version which I had created; the Edit Summary notations were "WP:HOWTO". "Describing to the reader how people or things use or do something is encyclopedic; instructing the reader in the imperative mood about how to use or do something is not"; does anybody see (I've made it easier to answer that question by not giving you a diff) any "instructing the reader in the imperative mood about how to use or do something" in the "Standard features" and "Editions and Add-Ons" sections Guy deleted?

What was bothering me was Guy's motivation for an evident antagonism to any features sections in the article, and for his refusal to explain his peculiar non-WP-established definitions of "advertising" and "PR".. Because on 12 September 2009 he added a ref in the current article's lead to this 2003 😗 review of the Windows variant of Retrospect, I had a hunch Guy had prior personal experience with the application—and that experience motivated him to create his own intentionally-inadequate features paragraph. Lo and behold, Guy delivered a "smoking-gun" confession on the article's Talk page (linked-to in this section's first paragraph) about 2.5 hours ago. "Yes, I would have reverted it [my latest version, because you are basically adding back material that has been removed, discussed, and been agreed to be inappropriate. I fully understand that you do not accept that Wikipedia is not the place for what is in effect a marketing document. I have suggested an alternative venue - Wikibooks - where you can include as much HOWTO and PR detail as you like, but you seem very reluctant to accept this. What you need to understand is that however hard Retrospect try to spin it, there is pretty much nothing unique, or even distinctive, about their product. I was a long-time user of it when I ran Mac networks and when I worked for an Apple reseller. I deal with backup software in my daily life. I know the product landscape. Restrospect [sic] is not seen as a significant player, and Wikipedia is not the place to fix that." Can anybody see a violation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV?

What do I want to be done to Guy (Dirk hasn't actually done any editing of the article; just the making of comments). I could probably insist that he be punished for WP:Vandalism; the "malicious removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition, without any regard to our core content policies of neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), verifiability and no original research, is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia." But I feel merciful towards a sinner who has confessed. I'd be happy if Guy is simply banned from directly editing the article. Here's the latest version I've written]; I've obviously gone a long way in satisfying Guy's and Dirk's legitimate complaints about the "Standard features" and "Editions and Add-Ons" sections, which I've reduced to about 0.66 screen pages from 1.2 screen-pages (for 3 features sections) on 12 September 2019. I'm willing to make further size-reducing edits if Dirk and Guy can convince me on the article's Talk page that my latest version (which I posted and immediately reverted at Dirk's suggestion) violates any real Wikipedia definitions they can give me links for. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Holy wall of text, Batman! EEng 12:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can anybody see a violation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV?
Nope.
Also, perhaps you should use more-generally understood definitions of "smoking gun" and "vandalism". --Calton Talk 13:07, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Calton, what I quoted in the last paragraph of my 12:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC) comment is the definition from WP:Vandalism. As to WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, see my forthcoming reply below to Guy. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 19:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
what I quoted in the last paragraph of my 12:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC) comment is the definition from WP:Vandalism
You quoted the definition: you either showed no understanding of it or, worse, are deliberately misapplying it to malign an opponent and win a dispute. --Calton Talk 00:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @DovidBenAvraham: Among your many transgressions, you failed to notify Guy or Dirk. Another user notified Guy, and I just notified Dirk.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for doing the notifications, Bbb23, and my apologies to Dirk and Guy. I pulled a 10-hour over-nighter writing this ANI—because I had promised, went to bed at 9:30 a.m., and only remembered the notifications when I woke up 3 hours later. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 19:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have no clue how we cannot get that a sentence like "Retrospect is sold with varying backup server capability levels, called "Editions", with non-expiring license–codes[13] that cover one major version" (my bolding) cannot be interpreted as 'promotional'. That one sentence can be heavily toned down to "tq Retrospect is available with different backup server capability levels<full stop>}}" (and probably even further). Then we have '"Add-Ons", which activate additional backup server features via Edition-linked license codes, may also be purchased" (again my bolding) with standard capabilities like "backing up to multiple single tape drives simultaneously[13] or to a multiple-drive tape library". In the features: "Backup destinations: Termed Media Sets[note 1]—can be on any of the usual consumer storage media,[11] tapes or WORM tapes[12]—with barcoding[13], or CD/DVD discs.[7]" .. what is so special about 'usual consumer storage media, tapes or WORM tapes .. or CD/DVD discs. In DovidBenAvraham's own words: "Kissel describes them in two single-screen-line sentences", that is what this should be reduced to, at most.
As far as I can see, JzG knows what they are talking about.
Note: you pinged me, but did not notify me on my talkpage, as is requested at the top of this page (thanks Bbb23). --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:51, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I originally stated on the article's Talk page, Dirk Beetstra, that I was going to delete any mention of Editions. However I later discovered a problem, described by my friend as the 2004 Dantz-Development-originated "soak the presumed rich installations" pricing strategy. Because Dantz already had many tens of thousands of "poor installation" customers, EMC and Retrospect Inc. have continued to offer the US$120 Desktop Edition license—a bargain my friend and I take advantage of. All Edition licenses except the most expensive one come with a maximum number of "client" computers, while the Desktop Edition license—and only that license—gives you free "protection of Windows systems NTFS open files". So I left in a minimal two-line explanation of Editions. As for tape drive backup destinations, that feature—much less with barcoding—is so unusual for consumer backup applications that the 2019 Kissell Online Appendixes don't even have a column for it. Kissell does have a column for CD/DVD, but unaccountably left it blank on the Retrospect Desktop line; therefore I left in a specific mention of those two backup destination types. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 20:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DovidBenAvraham, again. I had a consumer tapedrive in my computer 20 years ago, in the time before DVD burning and large harddrives and memory cards and RAIDs were normal. You can buy those things, you know (though, are they still used?). My company archives email and network backs up my harddrive. I backup pictures from my iPad to the cloud. You base your comments on incorporation in a table (an erroneous table as you confess). Come now with a reputable secondary source that states that Retrospect is the only piece of software in the world that can do that on Macs and I will grant you a one-liner for that. But not 80% of the article on it. Dirk Beetstra T C 03:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My basic question in this ANI, Dirk Beetstra, is where is this "only piece of software in the world that can do that on Macs" requirement stated as a Wikipedia rule? Nobody has been able to link to it, and I think it is a piece of editor folklore that is convenient for "interceptor pilot editors" trying to keep out "spam". You can't buy a modern tape drive for less than US$1500, because "By 2014 LTO had become the primary tape technology." AFAIK the only other Mac backup programs that can write to tape storage media are Tolis BRU and Archiware P5; both of these are substantially more expensive than Retrospect, and have tape capabilities because they're oriented towards media producers (you can't backup your two-hour movie to any available portable HDD). DovidBenAvraham (talk) 08:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DovidBenAvraham: that has been pointed out to you, I challenge the point that these are features worth mentioning. You cannot show me that that feature is something 'special', it is commonplace, especially now you state to me "... the only other Mac backup programs that can write to tape storage media are Tolis BRU and Archiware P5", meaning that it is not unique (and there may still be more).
And there it is again .. "... both of these are substantially more expensive than Retrospect ...", again a promotional statement. Who cares that the others are more expensive, that is not encyclopedic. We are not a sales site or a price comparison site. --Dirk BeetstraT C 08:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Beetstra, It may be true that most other products will no longer write to tape, for much the same reason they don't write to Bernoulli drive or clay tablet. The only time I hear about tape in my professional life is in the context of how to get rid of it. I have a huge stack of legacy format drives and tapes in my graveyard of IT, including DLT and autoloaders, various LTO generations and even some Travan if I can find it! Guy (help!) 11:14, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again? How many venues is this you've tried now? The fact that I used Retrospect (as I presume do you, given your zeal to pad this article out) has zero relevance. What, you think I had a bad experience and hate it? Nothing could be further from the truth. I loved it. I don't use it now because I'm not a twenty-something running branch office Mac networks, I am leading year-long migration programmes involving hyperconverged virtual infrastructure, Oracle appliances, AIX and such. I have worked with Retrospect, BackupExec, NetBackup, Tivoli, Networker, Veeam, CommVault, Crashplan, Mozy, Avamar - those are just the ones I remember. Guy (help!) 15:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Trout for DovidBenAvraham for what looks like a bad-faith ANI report and the accusations of vandalism (please take a moment to review what is and is not vandalism around here). JzG's actions look entirely reasonable to me and I agree with the citation of WP:NOTHOWTO (and would add WP:NOTCHANGELOG to the list of policies in play here); there's no need for detailed listing of product features unless they are the subject of significant third-party coverage. The mere mention of a feature, especially one which is standard in backup software, doesn't necessarily merit coverage (I'd suggest that WP:ROUTINE applies here). Further, whether or not JzG has used the product before is irrelevant, and your "smoking-gun confession" is nothing of the sort. NPOV would apply if JzG were trying to bash the product in the article or cherry-picking negative reviews, but I see no personal bias or POV in their actions. creffett (talk) 17:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My "bad-faith ANI report", creffett, was based on my feeling that Guy must have antagonism to the Retrospect application to have used a 2003 pre-enterprise review as his only reference—quoted at length—to its features. He denies any antagonism, and in my current charitable mood I think that—distrusting TidBITS because he was too busy to discover it's not a blog (a question I have dealt with in a RSN topic archived here in my only other venue), Guy went back to the only publication he felt he could trust. So last night I felt justified in quoting the definition of WP:Vandalism, but I now think that I should WP:AGF on Guy's part. As for WP:NOTCHANGELOG, creffett, you'll find no changelog in my latest or earlier versions of the article; here and here are "Exhaustive logs of software updates" in the WP articles for competing enterprise client-server applications. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DovidBenAvraham, you probably have no idea how many people have tried to ram wads of spammy content into article based on the claim that because they argue a source is RS, so everything mentioned in that source should be in the article. You are violating MPOV. And WP:IDHT. And WP:STICK. And WP:NCR. Guy (help!) 22:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: block DovidBenAvraham as an inveterate and long-time timewaster

DovidBenAvraham, you have been arguing about the article Retrospect (software) and its sourcing for a number of years, I saw on your page. I noticed an interesting comment of yours from 2016, showing a basic misunderstanding of Wikipedia's sourcing principles: apparently you believed then, as now though with more frills, that if there are no secondary sources, that means you're justified in basing an article on primary sources. "When I tried to enhance the article, I ran into the fact that there are no modern secondary sources other than one short Macworld review by Stuart Gripman"[186] (your italics) "As I've said in my third paragraph above, I can't do much about the "Primary sources" issue because there essentially are no secondary sources."[187] Your conclusion that you must use primary sources because there are no others is erroneous. The correct conclusion is that if there are no secondary, reliable, independent sources, Wikipedia shouldn't have an article about the subject either.

You were immediately told so by an IP user: "If no reliable and third-party sources exist for a subject, it should not usually have an article".[188] But you don't seem to have heard it at that time, three years ago. You probably never clicked on their link; or if you did, you never wrapped your head round it. It's a very good "explanatory supplement" link. Try clicking on it now. Guy, speaking from his extremely long and wide Wikipedia experience, explained it to you more recently, after you had tried to explain the policy to us all on ANI.[189] I congratulate Guy on his patience in responding to your long-time, long, repetitive, and bludgeoning insistence on your own views on our sourcing policies on many talkpages and noticeboards. I'm considering blocking you as a timewaster. Guy and Diannaa and the other people who have been trying for years to educate you about Wikipedia policy and practice should be freed to use their time better. What do people think? And, DBA, I have one question for you that I hope you will consider: why are your posts on talkpages and noticeboards so much longer than everybody else's? (As well as generally being more numerous than everybody else's.) Bishonen talk 18:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC).[reply]

  • As proposer, I support an indefinite block of DovidBenAvraham for wearing out the patience of the community. If this seems harsh, as a secondary proposal, I suggest limiting DBA's input on noticeboards and talkpages to something reasonable, because, currently, just reading all of it is exhausting. (I would not limit their article edits.) Say, no more than four posts in any 24-hour period, and no single post longer than 500 words. For comparison, their opening post in this ANI section is 1,222 words long. I mean four posts altogether anywhere, not four posts per individual page. Please say "Boo! Censorship!" below. Bishonen talk 18:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC).[reply]
  • Boo! Censorship! A topic ban would be sufficient. But I am by now distinctly weary of this. As Bish notes, just reading it all is exhausting. And I say that as one who is notably prolix. Guy (help!) 18:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed tack. see below. Well, I'd also probably prefer a TB:but I acknowledge, what from? Just this article? Making accuastions of NPOV? Spamming and/or pushing their own demi-NPOV?! So I can see that a bock is just simpler. And a topic ban that is sufficiently complex that it consumes editors' and admins' time to the same degree that they did before they were Tbanned seems otiose.
    Long and the short of it, I guess ablock until DBA can demonstrate that they have read, understand and can work under the both the policies they have been repeatedly reminded of and that they cite (albeit mistakenly) themselves.
    ——SerialNumber54129 19:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a counterpoint to the verbosity of DBA: if ((wc -w DBA_talk_posting) >= 100) then DBA_talk_posting > /dev/null. Cabayi (talk) 20:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant to prevent any good-faith editor from contributing, but support block until DBA can show firm determination to stop wasting the time of other editors – see for example this thread, 26 posts totalling almost 40k, all because somebody made a mistake. I've no talent for succinctness myself, but here I'm reminded of Ogden Nash (or perhaps one of his imitators?) on Augustus John, something along the lines of: "Augustus John, goes on and on, and on and on, and on and on and on". It's not OK to do that here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Bish's secondary proposal; an indef is always an option. Miniapolis 22:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess that a topic ban from anything backup/archive related would be a good thing. Maybe learning how sourcing works on other articles maygive them the possibility to one time return to the subject that they do seem to know quite a bit about (if you know that there are no secondary sources ...). Some restriction as to how to communicate might be a good thing as well (drop the bolding and cut the length). --Dirk BeetstraT C 04:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nah, I support a block, still does not get it that 'but this is the cheapest piece of software that can do the trick' is not encyclopedic. Serious WP:IDHT or WP:CIR issues. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block or backup-related topic ban per Bishonen's arguments. I don't think the secondary proposal is sufficient and it might be too complex to monitor. Johnuniq (talk) 06:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support block so DBA can take some time to read up on our basic policies.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:08, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - At least unless he is willing to study Wikipedia policy and develop a stronger understanding of the rules. Accusing an editor of vandalism for what is, at most, a content dispute is already a personal attack; filing a lengthy ANI case in an attempt to win a content dispute goes beyond personal attacks and into the realm of forum-shopping or deliberate manipulation of the process. I would not support a sanction if he showed any signs of understanding why he is getting a backlash. But as written, he doesn't seem to get it IMHO and I think we will back here again and again. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indefinite block until some clue is obtained. Ordinarily I would suggest starting with a topic ban, but after reading this, it became clear that it's not the topic that's the problem. --Calton Talk 13:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support block for the IDHT issues, also for personal attacks - accusations of vandalism and the statement But I feel merciful towards a sinner who has confessed don't engender a feeling of collegiality as far as I'm concerned. I'd support a TBAN but agree with SN54129 that the issue is too nebulous to effectively define a TBAN. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 14:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as written and Question This seems kind of harsh to me, though I'm not certain how often this user brings notices to ANI (if more than once every couple of days, then that's excessive, I'd say). What about an alternate proposal whereby an administrator, or a long-term editor, takes the user under their wing in a forced mentorship arrangement whereby the user in question is forced to read through the key editing policies and the escalation procedures? It seems to me that the user may not even be aware of article Talk pages, how to initiate an RfC, how to initiate an edit request, peer review, or some sort of process, so he just reverts edits instead of discussing them consistently (which is inconsistent with WP:BRD). This forced mentorship arrangement could, and perhaps should, be accompanied by a 30-day ban (provided such ban still allows for the editor in question to complete quizzes on the material covered in the policies) and a very stern, written warning from an administrator that continued recidivism will most likely result in an indefinite ban. Doug Mehus (talk) 17:38, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure your alternative suggestion is realistic, Doug Mehus. I do believe you'd have to force not just DBA, but also some admin/long-term editor, into the arrangement you describe. We probably don't pay them enough to do it willingly. Mentors are hard to come by, especially for such a Herculean task (quizzes? seriously?). Bishonen talk 17:54, 28 October 2019 (UTC).[reply]
  • @Dmehus: If anyone needs that level of overseeing, then surely there is an lack of understanding as to what we are actually doing here? ——SerialNumber54129 18:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bishonen: and @Serial Number 54129: Completely agree a willing admin or editor to mentor DBA will be hard to come by. I'm too busy at the moment with real-life things, but if you wanted to shorten the proposed indefinite ban to, say, 6 months, I'd be willing to take DBA under my wing for, say, 30-60 days, following the conclusion of his shortened (albeit not insignificant) 6 month ban. I see potential with him, and the key policy for him to review seems to be WP:CIR, as well as WP:BRD and other policies previously cited. Doug Mehus (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dmehus: ^^^Does you credit. But remember indefinite does not mean forever (or whatever it is, I paraphrased): DBA's block would actually expire the moment he could convincingly demonstrate understading and appicability, etc., of policy—which could, theoretically, take a week. And, less theoretically, could certainly take less than six months. ——SerialNumber54129 18:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus - I really like your idea as an alternative approach. DBA has been around for 3-4 years, so he really should have been able to pick up some of the norms around civility within this time. His willingness to try and set up another user with a bogus vandalism charge and his view that editors who disagree with him are 'sinners' is really worrisome for an experienced user who should know better. However, if he's willing to turn over a new leaf and participate in a mentoring program in good faith then that would change my impression of him. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 18:09, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
38.142.216.106 Thanks. And, for clarity, the 6-month proposed ban could be shortened pending a willing admin/editor being willing to take DBA under a 30-60 day forced mentorship arrangement sooner, and, of course, I'd be willing to take over as assuming mentor at the 6 month mark (from today). Speaking to a larger issue, I think a lot of these incidents, edit warring, repeatedly going to ANI and such stems from a fundamental breakdown in our new member welcoming committee protocols and we might want to raise some sort of revised protocol to help try and stem off these sort of problems. Skimming through some of the linked correspondence, at the root, I see DBA as cordial and complimentary in his replies to other editors and admins (the copyvio ANI thread, for instance). So, I think he's fundamentally a good person, but the problem stems from a lack of understanding of escalation techniques and to policies. He may not even know about DR, the Teahouse, or even the Village Pump. He may not know about RfCs and how they can help promote an Edit talk page discussion. All of this could be solved with a mentor, who could also tell DBA to "stick to the facts" in any future ANI incidents he raises. We don't need a 3-page, single-spaced exhaustive treatise, but rather just the key facts; sentence fragments are fine. (And yes, I realize the irony of me reminding DBA of the need for verbosity.) Doug Mehus (talk) 18:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Less verbosity, surely? Cabayi (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cabayi, Where did I say less verbosity? I'll correct immediately as I meant more. Doug Mehus (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I am no longer sure that this mentorship would be a good idea... ;) 38.142.216.106 (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indefinite block Changing from "Vague moan regarding DBA's behavoir" to "WTF isn't this guy blocked already?!" This discussion has being going on some days, and DBA has had examples of his spamming / COI / PoV—whichever it was at the time—raised mutlipe times, but does he stop? No, and more to the point, he continues with the same behavior even now, as JzG's link shows. This is no longer in the realms of "all he needs t do is convince us, etc"—we're now in deep WP:IDHT territory, and that pretty much precludes the liklihood of a basic reading of policy being sufficient.
    In other news, can an uninvolved admin wrap this up? a) much of the discussion has become generalised rather than focussed on the original question, and b) since the behaviour that caused the thrad is on-going, the question is one of policy. Cheers, ——SN54129 17:21, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indefinite block. I'm too exhausted after reading through all of this to be verbose, so I'll just say I'm also of the "WTF hasn't this guy been blocked yet. Doug Weller talk —Preceding undated comment added 19:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indefinite block; Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a sales flyer. - Tom Thomas.W talk 21:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revision to Alternate Proposal Above: As I thought more about sussing out my alternate proposal above, following initial favourable reception from 38.142.216.106, what about this...assuming we can impose bans on editing in specific namespaces,

  1. an indefinite Main namespace ban on DBA, for which the closing admin would note key policies for DBA to read up on, absorb, and self-quiz himself (WP:CIR, WP:BRD, and other policies cited above). This would still allow DBA to contribute productively via relevant article Talk pages using "edit requests" (even though normally used for WP:COI, a special case can be made for having another editor review his proposed edits for WP:RS, WP:NPOV, citations, etc.), peer review, and RfCs; and
  2. a prohibition, if not an indefinite topic ban on WP:ANI, as this would force DBA to resolve his disputes through WP:DR, mentorships, and The Teahouse. If he received threats to his personal security, there is always the option of him e-mailing the Wikimedia e-mail address for such matters. Similarly, if the DR mediator felt he had a legitimate case for an ANI issue, DBA could raise the ANI issue through the mediator. Doug Mehus (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Legitimate question for DovidBenAvraham: Looking in to Retrospect (software), this seems like an innocuous macOS backup software. What's your personal fascination, if any, with this software article? (Sorry, didn't read the whole case and prior case(s), if any.) Doug Mehus (talk) 23:05, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've used Retrospect for multiple machines (Macs plus a job-mandated Windows 95 desktop) on my home LAN since 1995, except for 2010-2015 after my ancient "backup server" died of old age. I have no connection with the developers; I've always personally paid for my licenses. I want the developers to sell enough licenses to stay in business, but their business model of charging extra for "server OS" licenses has broken down because almost everybody uses Linux-based servers now—which IMHO is why they chose to be acquired in June. I'm also fascinated that most of the developers have worked on the product for 25 years and keep devising new features (although their beta testing capability hasn't improved since 2009). DovidBenAvraham (talk) 05:04, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(I've added this paragraph after Doug Mehus responded, because it doesn't affect his response—and I should have included it in the paragraph directly above.) There's another important reason why I want to promote Retrospect, which I freely admit I want to do within the limits of documented (see my comment below) Wikipedia rules. This table of consumer-oriented Macintosh backup applications shows that Retrospect is the only one with true client-server capability. IMHO that's vital for SMEs, in which I expand the definition of "enterprise" to include governmental and other non-profit organizations (hospitals and local libraries). Those organizations are being hit by ransomware, and they're frequently badly hurt because they haven't been doing management-enforced backup of their individual computers. The problem with doing that using consumer-oriented near-CDP backup applications is that each user's computer is attempting to back up without any coordination with any other user's computer, and that generally means the backup destination HDD device is overloaded if more than a dozen users' computers are backing up simultaneously. The long-time-known solution is scripted client-server backup, but Retrospect is the only application that is both cheap enough and simple-enough to do that without the aid of an expensive IT professional such as Guy. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 06:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DovidBenAvraham: (Response to David's second paragraph added following my initial replies to his first paragraph that follow this reply.) This seems reasonable, but, not being an expert in this area, I'm wondering if—as an alternative to adding such details to Retrospect (software)—this could be forked off as a sub-page of that page or as a related content fork? I don't know what such a page would be called, but perhaps it could be named as Retrospect (software)/Name of sub-page or as Name of content fork of Retrospect (software). Do you see what I'm saying? Also, do you knowJzG (Guy) is an IT professional? Assuming you do, just friendly "bro tip" from editor to another, we need to mindful of notWP:OUTING other editors. You haven't named his last name, which is good, but if he hasn't named his profession on his userpage or elsewhere, then you've outed his profession. At the same time, when you add the subjective adjective "expensive," it can be construed in a pejorative (negative) way. I assume good faith in that this isn't what you intended, but other editors will not necessarily be so charitable, especially if they see apparent habitual use of such language. Contracting an IT professional is usually costly, but like in our editing, in our interactions with other editors, we need to try and maintain a neutral point of view and be objective. This isn't always possible, in heated discussions (i.e., at AfDs), but we should save our criticisms for other's arguments and not try bring a personal element to it. Ping me, and Guy, if something like this is workable. --Doug Mehus (talk) 07:04, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dmehus: To alleviate the outing concerns, I think that's DovidBenAvraham's inference from what Guy said above in this and this edit. — MarkH21 (talk) 08:33, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MarkH21: Okay, yeah, that all looks good—it's pretty clear he acknowledged his occupation by those edits. I'd intended my comment to @DovidBenAvraham: to be more of a "teachable moment" for the future anyway as it was a pretty mild case of outing, if it were that. Doug Mehus (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus, the place for this is Wikibooks. He wants a ridiculous level of detail about features and enablements that are completely generic. This is a very small player in the market and we shouldn't include that level of detail even for major players. I am also concerned that DBA seems to be rewriting the central article on backup software when he has virtually no knowledge of anything other than this one product. That feels like someone rewriting the article on relational database management systems when they have only ever used FileMaker Pro. It would be better for someone who has never used anything, because these niche products skew your view of what the market looks like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talkcontribs) 9:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
JzG Yeah, I tend to agree, but was just thinking on if there might've been an opportunity for a spinoff article on Retrospect (software)'s features. A "how-to" manual or exhaustive product review analysis tends to favour Wikibooks more. In terms of DBA's questioned expertise, I tend to agree with you here, but in the spirit of collegiality, I'm wondering if, perhaps, an indefinite limited topic ban (perhaps following a short term Main namespace ban while David reviews and absorbs the noted policies in this thread—to the extent it's still a discussion thread and not a book in itself) whereby DBA would still be able to propose edits through Peer Review or RfC and you primarily (as well as editors) could provide him with brief but useful guidance on why the edits would be rejected, need to be cut, or otherwise modified? I know for myself, given my lack of expertise in this area, I would probably limit myself to performing minor grammatical fixes, citation adds, and infobox updates, and would discuss proposed ideas on the Talk page. I think we should encourage DBA to do the same. That's not to diminish in any way DBA's abilities or competence, but just a matter of saying, "hey, this is a complicated topic, let's get some outside experts to weigh on your proposed edit(s). Doug Mehus (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus, no, a spin-off would just be a SPAMFORK. This belongs, IMO, at Wikibooks, where I think it would be perfectly fine. Sure, there is similar content in some other articles. We should nuke it there too. Meanwhile we got yet more pormotional text today: [190] - including claims of novelty sourced to a patent (a canonical primary source). I just don't think DBA knows how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Guy (help!) 16:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, Fair point. I do tend to agree with you here, "I just don't think DBA knows how Wikipedia is supposed to work." In fairness, he is not alone in this thinking, sadly, by the number of people who dispute AfDs on non-notable companies. To me, this lack of understanding of Wikipedia's core purpose and to its main policies (especially WP:CIR and WP:BRD) is the main problem here, and the reason I know support an indefinite ban (preferable Main namespace ban, so he can still propose edits through WP:RFC and WP:PEERREVIEW via Talk pages...or would he still be able to do this with a blanket indefinite ban?)Doug Mehus (talk) 16:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Humourous aside: Can we spin-off this ANI into multiple threads per WP:ARTICLELENGTH? ;) Doug Mehus (talk) 16:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DovidBenAvraham: Thank you for that response. You seem quite knowledgeable on the subject, and you're generally quite well written, David, I have to say. I admit, I haven't read all the ins-and-outs of this editing dispute, but what what I did manage to glean is that in a Talk page, Guy, recommended for you to use your writing skills and write more detailed content over at Wikibooks. That seemed like a reasonable approach because you have to remember that encyclopedias, as Wikipedia notionally is, aren't meant to be detailed treatises on every possible topic. Some topics will be longer than others, but if they get too long, we need to refashion things and split things off. There's a Wikipedia policy, can't remember which one, or possibly an editing tag, that reminds editors not to focus on such nuanced details, minutiae, and the like that would only appeal to a narrow, niche audience. That sort of thing belongs in the scholarly journals, trade publications, and, yes, even Wikibooks. Heck, you might even be able to have a named byline/attribution over at Wikibooks. Do you think this could be a reasonable approach?
At the same time, in your editing, while bold moves are encouraged, when an edit is challenged, we're supposed to revert and discuss, in the talk page. I know sometimes talk page discussions languish unanswered, but there's a tool called RfC whereby you apply an RfC tag atop your talk page discussion, and a bot will invite editors to participate in your discussion. There are also other tools, like WP:EDITREQUEST and WP:PEERREVIEW that you can use. Do you think you can work really hard to adopting this approach? You're obviously well written, well spoken, and quite knowledgeable, who has a high intellectual capacity and incredible potential. I just can't stress how serious this is, and, it seems to me, that you're within a CH (maybe two) of facing an indefinite block to force an editing behavioural change. I really don't want to see this happen. If you would like to discuss this off Wikipedia, I'm willing to guide you, to the extent I have available time, but you may have to be patient for replies. If you want, reach out to me via LinkedIn. Doug Mehus (talk) 05:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, Guy explicitly outed himself (I assume from his "handle" that he's male) as an IT professional in his 15:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC) comment in the section of which this is a subsection]—although he had given strong hints of it in previous comments. I have no idea of his last name (I don't even know if "Guy" is his real first name), and I wouldn't disclose it if I did. I'm quite sure from what Guy wrote in that comment that he is worth every penny, but anybody who can work with Backup Exec and NetBackup is IME likely to be highly paid—because those client-server backup applications have large-enterprise features that aren't needed by mere SMEs.[reply]
Second, let me respond in one comment to the basic "block DovidBenAvraham ..." topic. The tl:dr version is I need a mentor for about 3 hours, during which he/she will spend most of the time refining the answer to one simple question: Based on any article links the mentor can provide, is there a written Wikipedia policy that says articles about application software can only mention features that are unique to that particular application? If it exists I've proven overnight that I am willing to comply with it; I remembered a unique feature of Retrospect, and I slightly-adapted a long-existing Features paragraph covering it into the fourth paragraph of the article lead.
If you skim this section of the article's Talk page, you'll see that Guy and Dirk Beetstra steadfastly evaded my repeated posing of the question in the preceding paragraph. They responded instead with links to other WP articles about editing, in the course of which Guy implicitly called me names such as "monomaniacal" and "proprietor of a Single-Purpose Account" and "writer of a How-To guide". Frankly I think their evasion is because that written WP policy doesn't actually exist. The charitable explanation of why they are nevertheless citing it is that "interceptor pilot editors", who do dozens or hundreds of edits a day, think it would save a lot of time in their unceasing battle against "bomber pilot editors"—some of whom (like me) tend to write articles that have at least promotional intent even if they don't violate written policy. If I'm correct about its non-existence, my mentor will have to spend considerably more than 3 hours writing that policy and getting it approved.
As for my filing the subsuming-section's ANI, I did so in desperation only because on 26 October 2019 Guy filed this (archived) Miscellany for deletion of my Sandbox. What motivated him to do so was my unimaginatively having put a diff of the then-current and my proposed new version of the article into the article's Talk page. Guy's expressed reason was because it's "where this user has been padding the article and pushing back against all attempts to prune it back to something less like an advertisement for months". That sounded to me like attempted sabotage, which is one reason I cited WP:Vandalism in the ANI. The only excuse I can think of for Guy's doing that is his frustration that he has been unable to convince me—which IMHO he should re-direct into getting the "only unique features" policy written and approved.
As for an RfC, I did one 6 months ago to deal with Pi314m's un-discussed merging-then-deleting of related articles into the Backup article. The result was a very-temporary promise on his part not to redo it if I split that article, but IMHO Pi314m only made that promise because I also filed an (unsuccessful due to my lack of experience) ANI (because he's done un-discussed merging-then-deleting into other articles every January for the last 3 years, violating a written WP rule)—and I think that scared him. Since my inescapable first RfC requirement would be "show me the written 'only unique features' policy", I don't think that would achieve any result. Moreover (in the wake of a fairly successful RfC that got me to cut the article from 7 screen-pages to 4 screen-pages two years ago) I filed an RfC 1.5 years ago, only to have it immediately turned down because there was a third editor involved—and Dirk would count as a third editor in this case. In short, IMHO I already know enough about WP alternate options for conflict resolution not to need a mentor for that, but thanks to Doug Mehus for his offer. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 09:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You need to keep away from the entire area of backup software. This edit, for example, uses a niche book on backing up small MacOS X networks by TidBITS, an equally niche Mac specialist publisher, to make generalised statements about backup. You seem to seriously misunderstand your level of expertise. You're backing up a SOHO network, but writing as if you're an expert on enterprise data protection. You are looking through the wrong end of the telescope on this. You also replaced a not-terribly-good generic secondary source with a much worse primary source about a specific filesystem, NILFS. I presume you use that also? Sourceforge pages are not approrpiate for generic statements like that. "Products like X do Y, source, the SourceForge page for X where it says it does Y" is never appropriate even when X is a major player.
Your comments about Beetstra and me are blatant WP:SEALIONING. Every word you write is predicated on the assumption that you are right and everyone who challenges you is therefore wrong. You have a total of 2,500 edits, mainly related either to this or to an article where you admit a WP:COI and which you created. You literally wrote an article on the person whose publication company you now state you run. Your email address is at the same domain as the official website. Guy (help!) 09:45, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Another data point: you created a section in Backup (edit talk history protect delete links watch logs views) called "automated data grooming". I can only find one reference that uses that term other than specifically in respect of Restrospect. No other product calls it that. You have the illusion that your experience is generic. It isn't. Guy (help!) 10:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DovidBenAvraham: Are you sure you don't mean WP:3O instead of WP:RFC? Third opinion requests require that only two editors have been involved, whereas RFCs do not. I think this kind of misquoting and misunderstanding WP policies and dispute resolution methods is precisely why the issues and the need for mentorship extends beyond just your persistent focus on the non-existence of a "unique features only" policy (which by the way completely misses the point - discussion and consensus are critical when there is no explicit policy against some particular content or conduct). — MarkH21 (talk) 09:45, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some analysis

From DovidBenAvraham's edit count, he has 1,427 main space edits.

DBA admits to being CEO of Ronny Lee Publications, the website he links says it is run by David Hertzberg. WHOIS for ronnylee.com: [192], DBA's company website according to his user page - registrar David Hertzberg. Hertzberg is a reasonably common name but that's still a bit striking considering that DBA is personally involved in every other topic he edits.

So that's 17.6% admitted COI, 79.2% related to retrospect and backup, and 3.2% to other topics. Based on this, he is lecturing people with hundreds of thousands of edits to tens of thousands of articles on the correct interpretation of policy. I now think a TBAN would be a waste of time, and we should just politely show him the door. Guy (help!) 11:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly agree, but I want to point out that he is lecturing people with hundreds of thousands of edits to tens of thousands of articles on the correct interpretation of policy is a dangerous thing to say. I get what you mean and I think that the preceding edit breakdown is valid, but implications based on edit count are improper. — MarkH21 (talk) 11:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG and MarkH21 As long as DBA remained objective and neutral in his edits of Ronny Lee, I'm less concerned with this than I am with his apparent over-confidence in his level of knowledge and to his admitted not understanding of the purpose of Wikipedia. I think an indefinite Main namespace ban would be in order, until such time as he reviews and absorbs the applicable policies cited in this thread treatise. After which, this would be converted to an indefinite limited topic ban on Retrospect (software), whereby his editing contributions would be welcomed, albeit indirectly, through WP:RFC, WP:PEERREVIEW, and/or WP:3O, as applicable. (And I'm quite a patient guy, but, not having reviewed everything in the preceding months and years, it's clear something needs to be done, so long as this ban will be curtailed the moment DBA acknowledges his shortcomings, understands both Wikipedia's purpose and its policies, and agrees to modify his interactions with editors.) Doug Mehus (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a legitimate criticism. A user whose limited experience of Wikipedia is mainly COI and inserting an idiosyncratic POV is not well equipped to lecture others on policy. Guy (help!) 11:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comment: Doug Mehus, I will restate that I have greater faith in the benefits of an indefinite (not infinite) block than in any of the rather complicated solutions you propose, including overhauling our "new member welcoming committee protocols", etc. There's a concrete problem to be solved. I congratulate you on the amount of good faith you're able to assume; I too, and probably most people here, believe DBA means well; but I don't share your optimism about changing his bad habits simply by pointing them out. That's been tried, a lot, and for a long time. In this discussion I see so far six seven people supporting a block, two one supporting lesser sanctions (topic ban or prolixity sanction), and a couple supporting either block or topic ban. (I've changed the figures because Guy recently went to supporting a block rather than a topic ban.) (Cabayi would have to use more words for people like me to get what they do support.) So it looks right now like your proposal will probably become moot. And frankly, that proposal seems more likely to work for a newbie without DBA's Wikipedia history, IMO. It looks a bit as if you do take him for a newbie, with your (mistaken) guess that he might not know what RfC's etc are; you acknowledge not having studied his history. I know doing that is a bore, but you probably need to, before making such far-reaching offers of your own time and effort to help him. Anyway, I suppose you may be less inclined for these offers now that you can see his response to them, especially where he repeats yet again his request for an impossible level of detail creep in our policies: "The tl:dr version is I need a mentor for about 3 hours, during which he/she will spend most of the time refining the answer to one simple question: Based on any article links the mentor can provide, is there a written Wikipedia policy that says articles about application software can only mention features that are unique to that particular application?" Original bolding. In my ears, that, the essence of which he has repeated so frequently, says a lot about his attitude and about the reasons people agree above that a block is needed. Bishonen talk 12:46, 29 October 2019 (UTC).[reply]
  • What is any attempt to link an editor to an IP address doing on a public WP page, per WP:OUTING?
If Retrospect is a notable topic, then it's notable whoever wrote it and we should keep it. If it isn't, then delete it, per usual. But COI has a vanishingly small involvement in WP:N, at least for how we try to objectively measure that. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy Dingley Was this directed to me, or just an open question? I didn't question Retrospect's notability, and I didn't suggest linking an editor to a public IP as outing.Doug Mehus (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, the perennial gadfly appears. Nobody is suggesting deleting the article on Retrospect. It is notable, but minor. Thanks for dropping y, though. Guy(help!) 16:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG I can't make heads or tails of the end of your comment as to Andy Dingley's dropping of the letter y. Only thing I can think of is that it should be by?--Doug Mehus (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gee whiz. All that work by Guy researching my past edits, that could instead have been devoted to finding the written Wikipedia policy article stating the "only mention unique features of software" rule. I take that performance as a roundabout admission that the policy article doesn't exist, and that the policy as of right now is only "interceptor pilot editor" folklore. Why doesn't Guy write that policy article from scratch, or edit an existing policy article, and get it approved? He'll have a tough time phrasing that article so that the policy doesn't apply to OSes such as Windows and macOS and Linux. He'll also need to put in some kind of "grandfather clause", so that the policy doesn't apply to big-ticket enterprise client-server backup applications that he has used—such as Backup Exec (35 first-party out of 49 features mentions, by my rough count) and NetBackup (13 first-party out of 38 features mentions, by my rough count). My reading of the articles, for the purpose of putting in some links to the Enterprise client-server backup article, indicates many of the mentioned features are in fact identical to competitor features—and to features whose mention Guy has deleted from my former version of Retrospect article.
As far as alleged COI is concerned: I wrote the Ronny Lee article starting 4 months after he died in 2015, which was the day after my last visit to him in the hospital. The edits that have an IP address instead of my "handle" are because the Wikipedia article was my first one. Ronny Lee Publications didn't make money in 2015, barely did in 2016, and didn't in 2017 or 2018. The years it didn't make money were years in which I had to reprint some of Ronny's guitar method books; I keep the business going only because there is a small continuing demand for them. The edits to the Daniel Hertzberg article were corrections he—a close family member—requested because whoever wrote the article was no longer available; I initially told him I couldn't do the edits, and I guess I shouldn't have changed my mind. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DovidBenAvraham I like you, you have enthusiasm, show genuine interest in improving Wikipedia articles—albeit the plural use of articles may be stretching it a bit—but, not being an expert in this area, I tend to agree with JzG here that your proposed edits are too detailed. Wikipedia has lots of policies, to be sure, but there is not a written policy for every edit action on every type of article, let alone every article. Thus, some inferences are required. I can refer you to WP:HTRIVIA, which states that, while welcomed, such trivial details that are only of interested to a narrow (or supposedly narrow) section of the population usually do not matter. For instance, while interesting to me, I would not add an exhaustive section on the capital adequacy of Scotiabank and its evolution over time. I really think you should consider writing about, in detail, Retrospect (software) over at Wikibooks. If you ask Guy nicely, I'm sure he might even peer review and/or recommend your wikibook in the event it was ever nominated for deletion. I see potential for the two of you to working together, in a mentor/protegé relationship, as there's obviously a shared topical interest, but I think you've got to remove your self-affirming biases, if I may be so blunt. I'm certainly willing to help you, where I can. Doug Mehus (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DovidBenAvraham As far as WP:COI, see my comments above. I am not very concerned about this, so long as you remained objective in your edits and you have disclosed the conflict on your userpage. My bigger concern is whether you understand Wikipedia's central purpose and whether you can drop your self-affirming biases.Doug Mehus (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @DovidBenAvraham: I haven't read all of this and won't offer any opinion on any sanctions proposal, but I just want to try to explain one thing. You appear to be seeking "a written Wikipedia policy that says articles about application software can only mention features that are unique to that particular application". But Wikipedia does not, and can not, work like that. It is just not possible to prescribe precisely what specific details can be added to every single possible article subject. Instead, in most cases policies and guidelines regarding what is appropriate to promotion, levels of detail, encyclopedic content, etc are more generalised. When there's a disagreement whether something constitutes promotion (or unencylopedic detail or whatever), it is decided by consensus guided by policies and guidelines. In fact, those policies and guidelines are decided by consensus in the first place. So if you want to include something in an article, and in that specific situation the consensus is against you, then it is incorrect to include it, simply because consensus is the ultimate decider. There doesn't need to be a specific prohibition against a specific kind of information in a specific class of article. That's just how it works - hope it helps. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion

Above, User:DovidBenAvraham wrote, There's another important reason why I want to promote Retrospect...

That statement ALONE should see him immediately blocked for trying to use Wikipedia for selling, and his appending ...which I freely admit I want to do within the limits of documented...Wikipedia rules simply means that he is hunting for loopholes to enable him to continue using Wikipedia for his free advertising. --Calton Talk 12:36, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Calton: and @Bishonen: Yes, that was the statement that I had to read twice when I read DovidBenAvraham's reply to me. David, I think there might be a complete misunderstanding in what Wikipedia is not. To your credit, you are not alone in this thinking—I've argued with other editors at AfD that strive to protect long-standing companies and organizations that fail WP:NCORP and/or WP:CORPDEPTH, thinking every company needs a Wikipedia page. Wikipedia is not a value-added SEO service for companies...full stop. Your intent is good and, to be honest, I'm less concerned with conflict of interest concerns with respect to Ronny Lee so long as you remained objective and neutral in your edits. In fact, that's probably a red herring in this whole discussion. The biggest problem, as I see it, is that you appear (a) to be over-confident in your expertise on relational database software intricacies and (b) to misunderstand the whole purpose of Wikipedia. You will be pleased to to hear that I disagree, to a degree, that Wikipedia editors should be focused on more than a single article or particular area—indeed, many of my edits have been in Canadian financial services companies and Canadian radio stations; however, your level of interest in Retrospect (software) and your comment about needing a mentor for all of three hours does, to me, show an unwillingness to heed suggestions and work cooperatively. Thus, I do think that an indefinite Main namespace ban is in order until you agree to refrain from editing Retrospect (software) without using WP:RFC, WP:PEERREVIEW, and/or WP:3O. Doug Mehus (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Siihb at Talk:Steve Huffman

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Siihb filed a thread at DRN for dispute resolution on Steve Huffman. In looking at it, I saw that User:Siihb was using the talk page as a forum rather than discussing, and was ranting about censorship, and was also making conduct allegations about User:opencooper who was addressing Beutler requests for edits because of Beutler COI, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Steve_Huffman. I closed the thread at DRN. User:Siihb asked me at my talk page to re-open, posting a long screed. They and User:MarnetteD began quarreling on my talk page, and I hatted the discussion. I then went to Talk:Steve Huffman, and cautioned User:Siihb that I did not normally pay attention to an editor who posts at length but erases messages from their own talk page. Siihb replied with a diatribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Steve_Huffman&type=revision&diff=923143003&oldid=923081524&diffmode=source

I would also take incident with the statement of me quarreling on your talk page. I simply asked for the thread to be revisited and Marnette chimed in with insults in the exact same way they are on this thread. Siihb (talk) 04:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am neutral. I tried to look at a dispute, and was insulted by Siihb, and am finished with this dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Siihb has been using talk pages as a battleground including making lots of accusations without a shred of proof. Ponyo has tried to explain things to the editor but has been ignored. I apologize to you Robert McClenon for the posts on your talk page. I was just trying to leave you links to some relevant talk page threads to save you some time. MarnetteDTalk 04:04, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:MarnetteD - Apology accepted. My real issue was with User:Siihb, except that I wasn't interested in re-opening the dispute anyway. As I tried to caution Siibh, they are acting like an editor with an open mouth and closed ears, and should listen to Ponyo. They are the user who owes me an apology, but I don't expect it. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see, yet again, users making negative comments about me. Once again, as I did on your talk page Robert, I will ask that we focus on the actual issue here. The issue is over formatting on controversial/negative issues relating to the subject. Matt Lauer's page has a scandal clearly broken out as a separate heading, However, on the Huffman page, editors (specifically opencooper) choose to remove an edit breaking a major news incident out as a separate heading. If my DRN wasn't formatted correctly thats fine. I will re-file. The issue, which has received 0 attention, and 10000+ words of posts deflecting, is that this article for Huffman is not in line with similar articles (such as Lauer). Which of the two is correct. If you want to beg off of help for the incident because I was insulted, you should recall that you insulted me first by suggesting I wasn't worth listening to because I engaged in fully allowable wikipedia behavior (removing talk from my talk page), and pointed out you had done the same. Does anyone at all want to get back to the actual issue or should we all keep wasting time and energy about a simple heading for content that was already on the article and sourced, well before I even joined wikipedia. FFS.

Siihb (talk) 04:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) It took me all of 5 minutes to see that Siihb clearly has no intentions to productively edit the encyclopedia with other users, and has mainly engaged in POV pushing. I'm all for a NOTHERE/tendentious editing block until an admin is reasonably assured that this user can productively edit in a collegial manner without any battleground mentality. OhKayeSierra (talk) 04:56, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've edited numerous other articles and had no issues until this article. I am happy to follow whatever required rules are necessary to get this article consistent with Wikipedia rules. I opened the DNR because opencooper reverted the edits I made to bring the article in line with Wikipedia rules and consistent with other wikipedia articles. After they reverted edits and pulled in other users to do the same, I held off and submitted the DNR. Yet again I ask that this article be brought in line with wikipedia rules and be made consistent with other wikipedia articles. Siihb (talk) 05:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The actual issue is that you don't understand how Wikipedia works and haven't taken a second trying, even after many users have tried to link you the relevant policies. As others have mentioned, you have a battleground mentality which is why no one wants to engage you, especially as you tend to act like you're in some holy war. I recommend dropping the stick and learning how the encyclopedia functions first. Case in point, you went to Rhiannon's talk page laying in on them, where they explained to you that prior to their edits, there was zero mention of the topic you're all up in arms about. You just come off as someone lashing out at everyone. I also somehow became a target when all I did was help Rhiannon make proper COI edits out in the open. But you're probably just gonna get back to making "threats" about going to the media and repeat ad nauseam. Opencooper (talk) 04:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You reverted an edit I made to bring the article in line with Wikipedia guidelines which clearly were quoted repeatedly. After I undid that and found myself in an edit war, I brought the DNR and asked for assistance. My DNR was poorly formatted and was correctly closed, and so I engaged Robert asking for him to give another look at an article that had had edit wars over this very subject in the past well before I ever joined Wikipedia. The article has multiple edits made by you on behalf of paid editors. When I see an editor reverting edits in line with Wikipedia guidelines, and that same editor was used by paid Wikipedia services, the entire process smells. I will continue to present within wikipedia boundaries that the Steve Huffman page needs the comment modification controversy broken out as a separate section. This is consistent with Wikipedia rules and in line with other articles such as Matt Lauer. I do not need CONSENSUS to bring an article in line with standards. I submit that your revert of my edit was incorrect and I stand by that statement. Siihb (talk) 05:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Message for Siihb about Anger

User:Siihb – I have looked over the exchanges at Talk:Steve Huffman and DRN and my talk page and here at WP:ANI more than once. You want to get back to the original actual issue. You also say that you see a lot of users getting angry. I don’t know what the issue is about Steve Huffman, and am not able to determine that. I see that you are angry. It is very obvious that you are angry. I do not see other users being angry. I see that you are angry at and about User:opencooper because of some edits that they made for a conflict of interest editor who had requested the edits. I don’t know what was wrong with those edits. I don’t know what the controversy is about Steve Huffman, because all I can see is that you are angry.

I didn’t close the DRN thread because of a formatting issue. I closed the DRN thread because you had not tried to discuss the issue with the other editors, because you were just expressing anger. That is why I closed the thread, and your anger is why you are having so much difficulty editing about Steve Huffman.

User:Siihb – If you know how to stop expressing anger, stop expressing anger. Try to discuss without expressing anger. If you can take a break from Wikipedia, take a break from Wikipedia and express anger at your refrigerator. If you can’t stop expressing anger in Wikipedia, an administrator will block you to keep your anger out of Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've repeatedly made clear the issue, both on the DRN, on your page, on the talk page of the article, on the admin thread we are on, and yet here you are saying and I quote "I don’t know what the issue is about". If you can't see the issue at this point, why are you still making repeated personal attacks against me on multiple pages? I will refile the DRN correctly and then we can all wait for to see what reasoning is given then for not bringing the article in line. If you have nothing to contribute about the actual article that is in violation, please move along. We already have several other individuals attempting to muddy the waters and do not need yet another. Siihb (talk) 19:38, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Siihb - I am not making personal attacks on you. I am pointing out that your anger is interfering with your communication of your concern about content, and you are personalizing everything that everyone says. Just to show that I am not engaging in personal attacks, I will restate what I understand. What I do understand is that you have a content issue about Steve Huffman, and that User:opencooper reverted the edits that you made, and that they were acting at the request of a Beutler editor who has a conflict of interest, and that User:MarnetteD may agree with them. What I don't know is what the disputed content about Steve Huffman is, and that is why I said that I don't know what the issue is, and you are expressing anger so much that I don't know what the content issue is. If you refile at DRN, I will leave your filing alone (unless it is defamatory or otherwise requires immediate action) and will let another volunteer deal with it. However, you will have to state a content issue, because at DRN, we discuss content, not contributors, so that complaining about User:opencooper will be useless at DRN. If you have a clearly stated conduct issue about User:opencooper, you can state it here or at the conflict of interest noticeboard. Just venting anger isn't doing you any good, and is likely to result in a block. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for contributing a lot of words and no solutions to this issue. Surely your assistance has been productive. Siihb (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate user page use

Just a note that Siihb is currently misusing using space for WP:POLEMIC purposes. Opencooper (talk) 06:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of the discussion above about maintaining an "enemies list" on user space. The consensus seems to be that a user page like this discourages collegiality and should be avoided. It is fine for users to ask other users to avoid posting on their talk page (outside of posts required by policy, such as ANI notifications) but maintaining a list of enemies, critics, or other individual users being held up for censure is discouraged. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 13:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note that I see through your attempt to obfuscate the issue. Please stay on topic and bring any personal disputes to the proper forum. This is in regards to the Steve Huffman controversy edit revert that you did without discussion. You and the others have now made personal attacks on every single place I have made legitimate Wikipedia changes or complaints in the proper forums. Please cease your incessant and borderline harassing behavior towards me. I've made my positions on the issues clear and request that we keep the focus on the issues. Siihb (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve removed the personal attack in user space and strongly suggest that if Siihb restores it, they be blocked for disruption and personal attacks. @Siihb:, you are pounding your head into a brick wall - you don’t get to unilaterally decide that you are right and everyone else is wrong. If your proposed changes do not have consensus, they will not be implemented. Leveling accusations and personal attacks at your opponents ends only one way: with a block. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted your edit to the SIIHB user page. Currently you yourself have a personal attack against you HIGHLIGHT on your user page as well (Things I have been called by vandals "Tree-hugging liberal pansy"). I would request that you stop modifying the page tied to my user without consensus. If you'd like to make a change to my user page please use the talk page to reach a consensus first. Thanks and have a great day. Siihb (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You don't get to have consensus to call other users "disingenuous" - that's a simple violation of our policies and guidelines. If you put it back again, you will be blocked. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a violation to document my user opinion on a subject (These three editors). The individual you are replying to has identical reminders of their own interactions they dislike. If you persist on haranguing me and nitpicking my user account I will seek resolution from all involved and request the page be locked from your edits. Siihb (talk) 20:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is a violation. This is not a webhost where you get free space, Siihb. I have found temporary resolution by blocking you for personal attacks and disruption; whether you should be blocked indefinitely per NOTHERE could be decided by editors here. Word of advice: it is not a good idea to piss off everyone and defy an administrator who's giving you good advice on how not to get blocked. Drmies (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The accusations of paid editing continue. Most tiresome. MarnetteDTalk 05:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:MarnetteD - Well, there really may have been an issue about conflict of interest editing, except that User:Siihb was so busy raging that they couldn't frame the issue clearly. User:opencooper was acting as a neutral editor, making requested changes by a Beutler paid editor, presumably being paid by Steve Huffman. User:Siihb had some issue with those edits, and thought that they were not being properly neutralized and were still favorable to Huffman. They could have had a legitimate case, and that was probably what they originally wanted to discuss at DRN. I closed the dispute request at DRN because Siihb hadn't been trying to discuss the issue, only to vent anger. There still may be an issue. I don't know if there still is an issue. I know that Siihb didn't state an issue that I thought was ready for moderated discussion, and it appears that Siihb isn't capable of stating issues objectively because they can't separate fact from anger. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:04, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your analysis RM. I know I've never been paid in anything other than barnstars and my editing is not disingenuous. As to the specific content issues I think Ponyo's statements here User talk:Ponyo#Controversies on user biographies are well said. Best regards. MarnetteD Talk 22:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An unblock request waiting for three days

See User_talk:Tatzref#ANI. Maybe it was malformatted. As I wrote on his talk page, while I cannot access the original content, seems to me like he should have gotten a warning, not an indef block. Suggesting that an off-wiki site should out an editor, while there is no proof one even knows of WP:OUTING, should merit a warning, yes, but hardly an indef, IMHO. PS. Also, if Tatzref lost temper a little, it is worth considering that he was subject to some off-wiki harassment like someone impersonating him to suggest he was posting on StormFront, see last paragraph here. Nobody identified who tried to frame him, but a few weeks ago User:Icewhiz got indef blocked for offline harassment of which I think Tatzref might have been one of the victims. I'd advise Tatzref to cease pointless speculation on whether there is any connection between those incidents, but I don't think he did anything warrant an indef (he didn't out anyone, nor did he harass anyone on or off wiki, did he?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus reply here 02:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He should be aware of it, as he was made aware of it by an admin in a couple of different places,[193][194] but continued making them.[195][196] He also cast aspersions on a bunch of editors regardless of fact,[197] and his sourcing - to nationalist authors like Marek Jan Chodakiewicz,[198] and antisemites Mark Paul[199] and Gilad Atzmon[200] - is some of the worst I've ever seen. Tatzref is not here to WP:BUILDWP,[201][202] and should not be allowed anywhere near it. François Robere (talk) 12:13, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even if he was aware of it, and it is hardly clear, suggesting on wiki that a policy should be disregarded is hardly a crime. If I were to say that any policy is wrong and should be changed, do you think I should be indef banned? Ridiculous. After all, that's how we create and change our policies. Now, if I - or him - where to violate it, it would be another thing. But the point is he did not violate it. To be banned for suggesting that a policy should be violated is not far from punishing thoughtcrime. And as for his sources, this is irrelevant here. You can take it to WP:RSN. You could even take it here to propose a community ban if you think it would have a change. But he wasn't banned for any issues with sourcing, but for violating WP:OUTING, which IMHO he clearly didn't do, since he didn't out anyone. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus reply here 00:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've made a similar argument for PB, so you should see how it can apply here.
Tatzref was warned by an Admin, then did the same thing three more times. His net contribution to Wikipedia is negative. There's no reason an admin would consider this twice. François Robere (talk) 15:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Even if he was aware of it, and it is hardly clear, suggesting on wiki that a policy should be disregarded is hardly a crime. If I were to say that any policy is wrong and should be changed, do you think I should be indef banned?" -- I know nothing about this situation, but I'm going to point out that suggesting that a policy should be changed and suggesting that it should be disregarded are two entirely different things. --Tkynerd (talk) 15:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Editor repeatedly calling others racist

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Despite repeated warnings Elspru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continues to call other editors racists because they are casting doubt on some Russian sources. See WP:FTN#Pyramid power, Russian research and Alexander Golod their talk page, their edit summaries and [203]. Doug Weller talk 20:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Indeff for WP:NOTHERE. They're clearly not collaborating, and are only here to push absurd fringe theories. Its a longstanding pattern too, see this wacky edit from 2011 [204]. They are simply wasting the community's time. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 20:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jamesmiko being disruptive on NHL and NBA userboxes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jamesmiko (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I want to report Jamesmiko who is being WP:TENDENTIOUS (both edit warring and disruptive editing) on NHL, NBA and NFL userboxes (see his recent edit history). I recently reported him at WP:AN/EW, but no action was taken. Therefore, I am taking the matter here. I standardized the NHL (all of them), NBA (began doing it, but due to lack of free time stopped) and NFL (same reason as NBA) userboxes in 2018. However, Jamesmiko started reverting the changes once in a while and has now been doing it constantly (for about the last two weeks). He ignored my every attempt to try and work it out (he either ignored my messages or wrote that I did not have any authority to issue any warnings or make changes). The user in question states that, because he created many userboxes, he can do whatever he likes with them and by the looks of it – that is a case of WP:OWNER and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. He also added that if I wanted to make a change then I had to do it for all the userboxes and I do not have time nor I am interested in most of them. His messages can be seen at User talk:Sabbatino#Userboxes. Going back to the issue, I made the changes according to MOS:ACCESS (specifically MOS:COLOR) and MOS:NAVBOXCOLOR so it would comply with these policies. For example, his version and my MOS-compliant version (the page has already been protected due to disruptive edits by Jamesmiko). The changes were also made according to coloring schemes used in teams' infoboxes' titles, template, etc., but Jamesmiko for some reason thinks that "the more colors, the better". Jamesmiko just reverts either citing "consistency" or saying that no policies apply to the userboxes, or does not use the edit summary at all. In addition, by reverting to his preferred version, he reinstates wrong abbreviations for some teams, uses unverifiable color codes, and reintroduces non existent categories. This has been going on for far too long and it is evident that the user is being WP:POINTy by trying to show that nobody else can make changes except him. I am looking forward in dealing with this situation. – Sabbatino (talk) 21:34, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sabatino only edits the userboxes of teams s/he supports. As far as the designs I made a few years ago, most of the users who use them appreciate the format I used. There are a couple of other users who understand the template pattern, and I rarely alter their designs. Sabatino is not one of them, as s/he comes in to destroy these userboxes based on nothing other than "I can't see." Templates should not be subject to emotional responses. The userboxes in this format best demonstrate each teams' branding. Yes, they are meant to be colorful and to use the entire template of the teams' official colors. The purpose of userboxes is not the same as the purpose of articles. The colors I use are taken from official team websites and media guides; they are not random. I use two eyedropper programs to sample the real team colors. However, Sabatino's color choices are random and seem to be wild guesses at the color code. For example, the color codes on the Pittsburgh Pirates website are #000000 and #FDB827. Oftentimes, users edit the userboxes with their assumptions of team colors, which are often demonstrably wrong. There are also times when users insert pictures that do violate userbox guidelines. There is nothing in WP:Access which says every single letter must be readable, as the team names are intentionally the part left to be readable. Sabatino also uses completely random team abbreviations, based on opinion. However, the ones I use come from the official league websites and ESPN tickers. For example, when one watches ESPN, they see "TB" as the official abbreviation for the Tampa Bay Lightning, not "TBL". Sabatino is actually the disruptive user, as I am interested in preserving the integrity of the original userbox designs. Besides, there are plenty of websites which use color-on-color which still fit ADA compliance guidelines. Compliance isn't restricted to white on color, which Sabatino seems to assume. S/he is uses their own personal interpretation of WP:Access and ADA compliance, which is demonstrably and categorically false. James Miko (talk) 01:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When I see article history like this and this, I'm really tempted to block both of you. Maybe you don't cross the WP:3RR rule in a 24 hour period, but it is still edit warring and disruptive editing and it's going to stop one way or another. These aren't even articles - they're userboxes for goodness sake. I suggest that the two of you find a way to work it out. We don't really do content here, WP:ANI is primarily for behavior problems - and I'm looking at a couple right now. Go have a WP:RfC on one of the talk pages, get others involved, find a consensus, and learn to live with it. — Ched (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) It's not a matter of editor interpretation, it's a question of empirical evidence. There's online tools available to test color combinations as to whether or not they meet Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Plug foreground color #ED174C and background color #006BB6 into this contrast checker and you will see that combination fails both WCAG AA and WCAG AAA, even when using large text. Snook's tool also shows this combination as failing web contrast accessibility guidelines even at 18pt+. In this version User:UBX/NBA-Clippers, the red letters will be invisible to people who are vision impaired or color blind. I can hardly see them myself.— Diannaa🍁 (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamesmiko: I do not make up color codes. They come from the teams' sources. Therefore, stop accusing me of wrongdoings. While you, for some reason, just invent color codes. So stop saying that you are using official codes. Just look at LA Clippers Reproduction Guideline Sheet. Where are the color codes that you imply on using in this version? Every NBA code is taken from the teams' "Reproduction Guideline Sheet" files. Same goes for NFL. Meanwhile, the NHL color codes are taken directly from the teams' page sources (click "View page source" to see them). No program or tool, which you are using, can be more accurate than official teams' sources. So just stop. Regarding the abbreviations, all of the come from the NHL, NBA and NFL official sources (websites, media guides, playbooks, etc). Just because ESPN or any other unofficial website uses whatever abbreviations they like does not mean that they are correct. And finally, I do not "use own personal interpretation of WP:Access and ADA compliance" as I am following those policies unlike you. I want to also add, that non existent categories are reintroduced when the navboxes are reverted to non MOS-compliant versions.– Sabbatino (talk) 07:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is what Sabatino wrote: "I will act in bad faith and will restore the MOS-compliant versions and I do not really care if I get banned, because it is you who started it." This was his/her intent all along. The userbox patterns were a product of earlier consensus between myself and other users. The issue is between accurately representing a team's brand vs. ADA compliance. However, the ADA compliance is coming at the cost of using false color codes that are wild guesses at team colors. The accurate team colors may be found by "eyedropping" on team websites and media guides. Also, ADA compliance doesn't require every single word to be white on a color background. There is no way to agree to disagree on this issue. A design must be chosen, which is hard to do when users have unequivocal access to edit. I frankly cannot accept Sabatino's designs because they fail to represent team branding. If you go to a team's website, they meet the legal ADA requirement with color arrangements similar to the existing userbox patterns. There is no real issue, but an assumed one based personal preference and a poor interpretation of ADA compliance. Also, because userboxes are limited in size, they don't meet ADA compliance for letter size or font, anyway.

Instead of blocking anyone, how about establishing consensus on a design? Everyone wants to go immediately to making threats, which only blocks communication. I never started this edit warring, but I'm not going to let it go, either. Sabatino is a "johnny come lately" on this userbox design, which have existed in their current state for several years. Futhermore, s/he doesn't even edit them all, only ones s/he is interested in. The boxes should have team colors and formal abbreviations, not randomly chosen ones. James Miko (talk) 02:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a suggestion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Userboxes#Userbox colours; perhaps discussion can be held there? isaacl (talk) 04:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jamesmiko: When I wrote "I will act in bad faith and will restore the MOS-compliant versions and I do not really care if I get banned, because it is you who started it.", that was a means of indimidation, because some users (you included) just do not understand some things in a civil manner. The fact that I wrote here just shows that I was not gonna do what I wrote so stop crying like a little kid. "The userbox patterns were a product of earlier consensus between myself and other users." – when I asked you to show it, you failed to do that or you deliberately did not provide of what you were asked for. Regarding the colors, I already wrote in a reply above about them so I will not repeat myself. "I frankly cannot accept Sabatino's designs because they fail to represent team branding." – this is a clear case of WP:OWNER and WP:IDONTLIKEIT so there is nothing more to say to this. You suddenly want a consensus when I took the matter here. So why you ignored my attempts to discuss it earlier? You thought that you are untouchable? No, you are not. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The emotional outburst is amusing, to say the least. I was referring to a consensus that already existed, which you choose not to recognize. James Miko (talk) 20:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The two of you are going to end up blocked if you keep bickering and edit warring. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamesmiko: What consensus? This is the fifth or sixth time I am asking you to show the discussion/discussions that would show the consensus, but you do not show it at all. So I am asking again – where is/are the discussion/discussions? – Sabbatino (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note to admins: Jamesmiko wrote on my talk page that his edits are superior to mine (and I assume everyone else's). The same song is being repeated regarding colors, abbreviations, etc. (I already wrote everything in my reply in this discussion). In addition, I am being accused of being the disruptor, while the reported user has been restoring his version ignoring my attempts to discuss it. Additionaly, the revert has again been made at User:UBX/NBA-Grizzlies without any edit summary, which means that the reported user is openly using Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:09, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

vulgar and uncivilized language as well as vandalism

Please refer to the vulgar and uncivilized language directed towards me in his edit summaries by IP address here [205] who is the same as Jatbrand based on his edit summaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JatBrand He is also generally modifying quotes and disrupting wikipedia. Thanks Acharya63 (talk) 10:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Those edit summaries will need reliable translation (I'm assuming from Marathi?). The claims of being the same as another editor could be something for WP:SPI, but seems likely. — MarkH21 (talk) 10:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Blocked the /64 for a month. Whether it's a sock or not, it's certainly a vandalism-only account. Black Kite (talk) 13:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tetsou TheIronman

Tetsou TheIronman keeps adding incidents that don't meet the inclusion criteria to terrorism-related list articles. The inclusion criteria per a recent RfC says To be included, entries must be notable (have a stand-alone article) and described by a consensus of reliable sources as "terrorism". Their edits don't meet those criteria, since they almost never are notable. I didn't check them for the "described as" criterion but at least this incident didn't meet any of the criteria.

Tetsou TheIronman has been warned several times on User talk:Tetsou TheIronman#October 2019. His additions have been reverted with an explanatory comment [206] [207]. It should be clear to them that their additions don't meet the inclusion criteria. Sjö (talk) 11:56, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tetsou TheIronman evinces one of the strongest cases of WP:IDHT I've ever seen. I've explained the RfC set criteria to them countless times, and they've claimed to understand, and that they will cease inserting inappropriate entries. Then the second they think nobody is looking they go right back to it. A topic ban from Terrorism related articles would be appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:30, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
[208]is an example of them promising to improve their conduct in September. They did not. Simonm223 (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tetsou TheIronman (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2019 (UTC)hey i think there should be changes in the criteria, because i have made editions with reliable sources and they are deleted (for example an incident in Mexico in November 2015), I consider that these editions are arbitrary and go against the global principle of Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means and the use of common sense[reply]

As evinced by the unique way Tetsou TheIronman signs their comments, there's also some WP:CIR going on here. Simonm223 (talk) 12:52, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Tetsou TheIronman: There was a long discussion at the RfC, but as far as I can see you didn't take part in it. That would have been the best time to make that argument. As it is, there is a consensus about the inclusion criteria, based on Wikipedia principles such as WP:V. As it says in the links you posted "Ignore all rules" is not a carte blanche and in case of conflict what counts as an improvement is decided by consensus. When several editors disagree with you,, and when there is an RfC about what incidents to include as terrorism, the consensus i clearly against your edits.
The "list of terrorist incidents in X" still has many incidents that are poorly sourced, non-notable or undue, and not always described as terrorism by the sources. There is an ongoing work to clear the articles of those incidents and the last thing we need at this point is somebody adding more of them. Sjö (talk) 04:42, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely, what we have here is not a reasonable case of WP:IAR but rather a single editor who wants to go about doing things the way they had before a bunch of editors noticed what was going on in this article set and set about improving it. These "list of terrorism incident by month" articles were vast clearing houses of WP:SYNTH. And the criteria Tetsou TheIronman prefers are WP:SYNTH criteria - they take incidents not described as terrorism and then apply another organization's standards for what is a terrorist incident, filtered through their personal judgment, to determine whether these meet list criteria. This is the exact opposite of the consensus decision that came out of the RfC. Simonm223 (talk) 13:57, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(talk) Right, I will no longer make editions or past, recent or future incidents, my intention is never to be "non neutral" or "vandalize" the section, we better leave this for peace, I will also be carrying out other projects in Wikipedia in spanish so I will refrain from posting here (in the English version). Also when the change of criteria does not participate in it for external reasons, so if you make a modification in the future, I would be happy to participate in it, as long as I am notified — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tetsou TheIronman (talkcontribs)

User:BrianaMalaEdo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor is inserting the same pornographic gif into unrelated articles. Trackinfo (talk) 06:42, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Banhammered. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

208.185.237.210

Same person? Note the similar geolocate, similar interests, and see the edit filter log for 38.142.216.106 --Guy Macon (talk) 04:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is definitely Donald Trump editing on his iPhone. Can we legally block President Trump? Elizium23 (talk) 04:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Watch out for a tweet tomorrow telling us that "Wikipedia is the worst, they're failing, they're fake news. Jimbo Wales is a sad, sad man. Lock him up!" [just kidding] Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 04:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure we may legally block President Trump. Court rulings suggests that President Trump may not "block" (in the sense of Facebook and Twitter) other users, or request that they not interact with him. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Repetitive personal attacks on me

User:Elizium23 has been doing repetitive personal attacks on me and accusing me of bad faith. We have been involved in conflict and I has pinged several editors for third opinion and to came on conclusion but the user went for personal attacks.

  1. It started on the talk page of Weeping crucifix in Mumbai. In this section, he accused me twice for WP:OWNing when I objected his synthesis in the article and asked for synthesis in RS. I didn't show any of the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR in the article and didn't stop anybody to making changes. He never showed differences for accusation.
  2. When I said about what is written in RS then he said that only this can be good explanation, this can't be and used word absurd twice. After it, he capitalised word 'YOU' and again started personal attacks.
  3. The same editor accused me of accusing him for bad faith on even noticeboard when discussion about the topic was going on and later told that you get yourself blocked.
  4. I generally issue caution or warning after removing content and it is my habit to notify concerned editors. One can trace my all changes which I reverted or removed then I give explanation on user's talk page. When I did it on the talk page of ELizium23 then he called Your DYK sucks and get over it in both diff and edit summary.
  5. Suddenly after it, he came on my talk page and attacked me for bad faith by WP:AOBF and without any differences. He even called me that I am kneejerk reverting his edits but in fact, I edited only few in which there was high Christian POV (I can assume it from disclosure of his COI) and I did it too with summary and replying on talk page.

These type of repetitive personal attacks and vituperative mudslinging are harming my presence on the Wikipedia and draining my energy. I can too fall on same lines and attack him personally by calling him as kneejerk and accusing him for assuming bad faith directly but I want to follow the policies of Wikipedia. I am looking for stringent action on the concerned editor for ad-hominems on me.-- Harshil want to talk? 02:32, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In my defense, his DYK does suck. Elizium23 (talk) 09:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium says in his user page that he's affiliated with the Church and claims that "Since I would not be able to contribute neutrally to these topic areas, I pledge to refrain from making direct edits to these and other related articles." Yet then he does this. Shame. TryKid (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
COI 101: It is not, and never has been, a conflict of interest for a member of a church to edit articles about that church. What I said is that I would refrain from editing articles connected to organizations with which I am affiliated. And I have stood by that pledge. Now quit trying to shame me for this. Elizium23 (talk) 09:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a little reality check: The archdiocese of Mumbai is halfway around the world from Phoenix. It's in another country, another continent, another tectonic plate, another climate. The archbishop and pastor there have zero, count it zero, jurisdiction over me in Phoenix. There are 1.9 BILLION adherents to the Catholic faith worldwide. If everyone with a "COI" (as you put it) refrained from editing Catholic Church related articles, nobody at all would be editing them, I promise you that. Elizium23 (talk) 09:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What I should do is institute a counter on my user page that counts up the number of times someone accuses me of a COI, when there is none. Guys, I appreciate that I have made myself a COI-accusation-magnet by disclosing two very minor affiliations, but c'mon, you can do better than to squeal "COI! COI! COI!" every time I make an edit to a topic that has no actual bearing on anything I am actually affiliated with! Thx! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Elizium23 (talk) 09:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think every Wikipedia editor is a Catholic. If Catholics refrained from editing article about the Church, I would certainly be editing them. Many other editors too. Your last statement is demonstrably false. The first statement ("It's not COI for a church member to edit about his church") doesn't seem to be true to me, too. Also, I'm pretty sure Jesus and the Mumbai church are related to the Phoenix diocese, since they both come under the Catholic Church. (Forgive me if they don't both come under the Catholic Church, I'm not very knowledgeable about that). It is COI to edit favourably towards the Church that files a case against someone who showed basic common sense. TryKid (talk) 10:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm, I wonder who wrote Human??? TryKid, please don't stretch COI beyond breaking point. Cabayi (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A million monkeys, typing away? Jonathunder (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, basic common sense, such as mocking the Church calling her "anti-science" and "miracle mongers"? That is the "common sense" that Indian rationalists know and love? Elizium23 (talk) 10:16, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And (heh) once again we have someone who has no clue what the sources say about the case. The Church didn't file anything! The Church has no control over the criminal charges, didn't bring them, can't dismiss 'em! Read the sources, people. Sigh. Elizium23 (talk) 10:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Catholic Secular Forum seems pretty close to the Church no? But looks like I was wrong, so I apologize about that. The thread is not about the content of the article and what Sanal and the Catholics did though, it's about your behaviour. Another editor has weighed in that you I'm wrong about you having COI, so I apologize and I won't make that accusation again. I still think that you have a non neutral Christian POV not supported by reliable sources that you're trying to enforce but I don't have time and energy to argue about that. Also, you have a left message on my talk about removing some uncivil comment of mine, (Diff), but I don't see any removed comment. I request you to withdraw the misleading notification from my talk page. TryKid (talk) 10:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some notes from my impression of this: no, being a Catholic doesn't mean you shouldn't articles about Catholicism. Yes, telling someone that their DYK "sucks" is inappropriate. Apart from that I'm not seeing much egregious here. Saying that someone is exhibiting WP:OWN behavior with your mere second comment on the talk page is unnecessary escalation, but both parties have been reverting more than talking. Regardless, this is primarily a content dispute, so nothing for admins to do. If discussion doesn't go anywhere, use the various WP:DR processes to get some outside opinions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhododendrites: Isn't accusing someone for bad faith and issuing final warnings on talk page or you get yourself blocked is an inappropriate? -- Harshil want to talk? 15:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Like these? Elizium23 (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Being a member of a religion does not mean you have a COI and shouldn’t edit within that area. Secondly, personal commentary on talk pages is inappropriate, that’s true. However, when the personal commentary is accusations of policy violations, we’re just as concerned as to whether those allegations are true. Saying someone’s DYK sucks is a personal attack, but a relatively minor one in the grand scheme of things and probably best handled by letting it go. Based on the diffs this looks like a frustrated content dispute that should move towards dispute resolution, rather than an actionable behavioral problem. ~Swarm~ {sting} 16:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In the space of 2 days, Harshil came at me with seven (7) user talk page warnings. I believe that is a tiny bit excessive, when we are moving toward a productive conversation on article talk pages. I found some discussion of his past, off-wiki history informative (is out WP:OUTING to mention he was banned on Quora?) Elizium23 (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To add to what @Rhododendrites: said above, WP:COI doesn't apply, as I understand the policy, to Catholics editing articles about catholicism. They could optionally disclose they're Catholic, but even that, I don't think we can even constitutionally compel. The most egregious WP:COI, as I see it, is such where the editor has been paid to edit. A little down the pyramid is an editor editing for a company for whom he or she works for regular pay (as an employee or independent contractor). A little further down would be a volunteer directly editing an article about an organization to which the person currently volunteers. Basically, anyone who works for, is paid by, currently volunteers for, or any of the editor's immediate family members (to parents, grandparents, offspring, and the offspring of their offspring) that work for, are paid by, or who volunteer for an organization/company.

It seems to me that the WP:DR recommended by Rhododendrites is the best solution here, perhaps with an added note of caution for the parties to refrain from each other's talk page pending successful completion of the DR. Alternatively, the extent of any admin involvement needed here, perhaps, to order involuntary mentorship for the parties on what constitutes COI editing, how to identify it, and, crucially, how to action it. Doug Mehus (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I must ask, and beg to differ, why a few people here seem to think that "his DYK sucks" is a personal attack. It is the opposite of a personal attack because it is a comment on content, not a contributor. In all honesty, I stand by the statement that the DYK in question sucks (although that might be coarse language for a Catholic like me) the DYK premise is truly awful, it should never have made it to the front page. DYKs are approved by committees and so they are not intrinsically tied to a single contributor, and so there is nothing wrong with my judgement when I come out to say that this DYK leaves much to be desired and should not have been promoted, and in fact this article should be blown up and redone from scratch if possible, because the tabloid hot takes are just outlandish. Elizium23 (talk) 18:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, you might get less pushback if you offered more specific criticisms on what they could fix rather than just saying 'your work sucks'. I can't weigh in on whether your description is accurate or not, but just telling someone that their content sucks might not technically be a personal attack but it isn't particularly constructive either. Again, not saying that you are wrong, just saying that this might be a better approach if your goal is to improve the content. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 19:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium23, if you replaced the word "his" by "the" then you might be right, but what you said was personal. I'm an atheist myself, but I always thought Christians were supposed to be a bit more kind about such things. How about both of you agreeing to discuss things on article talk pages without edit warring or being nasty to each other? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How about this: I shall recuse myself from the weeping-statue article altogether. I see no point in working on it in this state. I shall also attempt to avoid interaction with Harshil169. Our topic areas don't really intersect. I hope this will satisfy everyone involved. I am not interested in pursuing a dispute that's so bitter and not winning me any friends. Thanks for all involved, and your good counsel is taken on board for future reference. I do apologise for being abrasive and coarse and rude. It is totally uncalled-for and my hands are not clean in this dispute. Elizium23 (talk) 23:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be a shame for you to drop your activity on that page, as the version of it Harshill69 defends has little basis in reality. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, edit-warring or falling afoul of WP:Discretionary sanctions were poor alternatives. Elizium23 (talk) 01:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

‎Umfront and edit-warring

Umfront (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

For this user with 240 edits in total, the main conflict resolution avenue is edit-warring. They have been previously warned (by two different users) and blocked (by me, in February) for edit-warring. Today, they started an edit war at Sergey Aksyonov, who was born in Moldavian SSR, currently Republic of Moldova. Aksyonov's name is given in the article, among other languages, in Romanian, the state language of the Republic of Moldova. The user four times [211] [212] [213] [214][ changed {{Lang-ro}} to {{Lang-md}}, which points out to Moldovan language, which is a name of Romanian language used in Moldova. The template survived and was not nominated for deletion because it should be used for citations of Romanian text written in Cyrillic, see the talk page of the template. Using it in the articles to substitute Romanian is not appropriate. The user was not interested in discussing at their talk page or at the talk page of the article, they just kept reverting.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for coming here too often recently, for whatever reason the rate of disruptive editing in East European articles by newish accounts, several hundred edits, dramatically increased recently. I do not understand why.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I'm not a new account (since 2009). Secondly, according to the basic law - the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova, its Official language is Moldovan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Umfront (talkcontribs) 19:46, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is indeed an argument you literally repeated in your edit summaries. It is completely irrelevant what the constitution of the Republic of Moldova says on the subject. In common English usage, the language is Romanian.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter: As far as why the increase, maybe SAD as fall sets in and winter approaches. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 22:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is indeed my basic hypothesis, though I am afraid its consistent application is not encouraged by WP:NPA.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:GreenC editing disruptively at Talk:Sarah Jeong

User has thrice removed the same comment by another user [215][216][217] claiming "WP:AGF personal attack etc." The comment was a response to their own trollish post. The insistence on WP:AGF is laughable given their other comment in the thread (which I've removed as a legitimate WP:ASPERSION). Note that DS are in effect for this article. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe if people would just relax and let things go, this wouldn't be here. It's not too late. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I warned them about editing others' comments after the second removal.[218]Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GreenC and Joel B. Lewis trading reverts back-n-forth in a hatted section? I know there's passive-aggressive, but hidden-aggressive? Shenme (talk) 06:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Shenme: in the next section (below) we have archived-aggressive, as well. --JBL (talk) 11:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit bizarre, GreenC. You personally attack a group of users for disagreeing with you, in an apparent implied personal attack and bad faith accusation that they’re sock or meatpuppets, and then when someone suggests you take it to SPI, you delete their comment as a personal attack? Knock it off, you don’t get to delete other people’s comments in general, but particularly in the context of ongoing disruptive behavior on an article under active discretionary sanctions. I have little tolerance for trolling behavior on that page in particular. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO at a minimum GreenC shouldn't be removing a comment which had been replied to without at least some clear indication that it happened e.g. replacing it with a redacted. I mean XavierItzm's comment may not significantly address what JBL said, but at least it's indented as a reply to JBL whereas with the modification it's easy to misread it as a reply to GreenC with the wrong indenting. Nil Einne (talk) 08:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW, I had restored my comment yet again (maybe violating 3RR?) before I saw this thread, and have self-reverted (i.e., removed it again) pending a closure here. GreenC's behavior is indeed bizarre. --JBL (talk) 11:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joel B. Lewis: I've restored your comment for you, as there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:39, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    This is all really silly. For the record, GreenC Sarah Jeong has been on my watchlist almost forever, mostly as a result of her conflict with Naomi Wu. I have not now, nor have I ever, knowingly engaged in off-wiki communication with JBL or with Sangdeboeuf. My comment on the issue of the New York Post is, rather, of a cloth with multiple comments I've made at WP:RS/N and other locations in recent months that Wikipedia depends too much on newsmedia sources and should be far more restrictive of which newsmedia sources are considered reliable. You'll note that I didn't express any great love for The Hill in the discussion either. Now could you all please stop this silly sniping and focus on article content? Simonm223 (talk) 17:34, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jicco123

Jicco123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Continues to make disruptive edits against MoS (now primarily on Mixer (service), where user consistently insists on using an image of the service's language menu in place of a textual list of languages, and inserting an uncited statement about a major streamer [who does not have a Wikipedia article] also moving to the service), and refuses to properly collaborate. Has recently had a 48-hour block for the same reason (WP:CIR). ViperSnake151 Talk 17:01, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have no opinion about the underlying content dispute, but must note that Talk:Mixer (service) is totally devoid of discussion, and that the history of User talk:Jicco123 contains nothing but templates. How do you expect people to react if nobody talks to them as human beings? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring, pointy edits, and harassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can someone please have a word with Ballastrae? After beginning an edit war at Baylor University, he or she has continued to make the exact same edits to a couple of other articles in a clear attempt to make a point. After I warned him or her that this behavior would likely lead to a block, he or she began to make edits (e.g., copying my post to a Talk page, copying my warning to my own Talk page) clearly intended to harass me.

He or she is welcome to continue discussing the original edit to Baylor University; there is an ongoing discussion and other editors are beginning to join in. But making the exact same edit to other articles, edit warring to preserve those edits, and then harassing another editor are all unacceptable. Please convince him or her of that. ElKevbo (talk) 02:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be a continuation of the behaviour that led Ballastrae to be blocked back in 2017 after removing large sections of an article on a University because "we are not holding up the same standards for other universities, such as Baylor and Penn State and the list. Fair is Far!!!!" [219][220][221][222]. 86.134.79.237 (talk) 03:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment, inputting his points of view, reverting pages, and Edit warring

Will someone please have a conversation with ElKevbo, as he has initiated an edit warring, as he does not agree with changes and feels that editors MUST meet his requirements for editorial changes and not Wikipedia's. He invoked his feelings and reverted the changes back to what HE FELT was appropriate. Key words - he felt.

He expressed a concern from a 2017 change, but he did not correctly express that the changes in 2019 reflect the conversation that was outlined in the 2017 discussion. Yet, in user (User talk:ssg2442) 20:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC) sent him a STOP Unnecessary Reverts because of his continued reverts. Additionally, User Atlantic360 called him out for edit warring again in 2019 :You started edit warring, they are references Atlantic306 (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2019 (UTC). Further, he was a part of another incident in 2019 that became edit warring, because he did not like the edits by a user: 00:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)RobertM87. In review of the totality of the concerns, the focus of edit warring is initiated by ElKevbo when he does not like the changes to pages, as he has a prescribed methodology for the way that pages should be listed.

ElKevbo was not harassed, Ballastrae was the user that was harassed by ElKevbo and he continues to harass Ballastrae by sending up this message and then ElKevbo left another message on Ballastrae's talk page. He pointed out his view and when I would not agree with his view he began to disparage Ballastrae on Ballastrae's page and on the university pages. Again, when he saw something that did not fit his "perfection" mold, he balked and then started reverting pages and sending out messages. Ballastrae responded to these allegations and afforded him the warning that continued reverts were not positive.

ElKevbo is becoming condescending, intimidating and very aggressive. Ballastrae (talk) 03:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment, retaliation, and Edit warring

Will someone please have a conversation with Jeff in CA, as he has initiated edit warring. Upon agreement with ElKevbo, a non-nonsensical reversion was made to a proper change on the Pennsylvania State University page indicating controversy.

There was NO reason for the reversion as the original change was proper. Again, people are allowed to make their rules based upon their feeling and remove proper changes because another user complains. The change does not NEGATE the fact that Penn Had Major controversies that are to be flagged.

Further, there has been NO rules outlined that define that a Controvery/Controversial section cannot be attached. When this does happen then the other universities will need to be corrected. Until then the change was proper to include.

This was a retaliation. Ballastrae (talk) 05:52, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A single revert with edit summary including "Please discuss in Talk" is quite normal. I've checked both user talk pages and don't see any collusion, so your saying there was is prejudicial (and quite the wrong way for you). Your progressing from Baylor University to Pennsylvania State University seems more the 'retaliation' you mention. Shenme (talk) 06:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And btw you templated Jeff in CA for their single edit on their user page, not on their user talk page. Shenme (talk) 06:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ballastrae has failed to follow WP:BRD on these articles and has edit-warred on more than one; and has then made WP:POINT edits to a number of other university articles. Given that these are practically their first edits since being blocked for similar in 2017, I have blocked them for a week. Black Kite (talk) 10:46, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite: Thanks for your help with this. He or she has created a new account, User:Ballastrae1, and is blatantly evading the block. ElKevbo (talk) 15:38, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've blocked the sock and warned them that if they try it again their block will become indef. GiantSnowman 15:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IAmTheRealOne is NOTHERE

This user, and IP, have done nothing but edit war on two articles. For an account that is over one year old, it appears that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. I'm requesting a block of the user and possibly the IP. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:09, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked the account for 72 hours with an explanation; blocked the IP for one month. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:12, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Legal threat

User:FifeHouseOwner is threatening me with legal action if I make any further edits to his copy about how he renovated his own house. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've indefinitely blocked for a clearcut legal threat. But @Lord Belbury: as it says at the top in massive letters, if you submit something to ANI about a user, you MUST notify them on their user talk page. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for that, I didn't consider that a black-and-white threat report would count as a "discussion". Noted for the future. --Lord Belbury (talk) 09:52, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like User:FifeHouseOwner is now evading his block by editing as an IP here. aboideautalk 15:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's looking pretty clearcut, I'm not in a position to do the needful (including updating the original block notice), if someone else can handle it Nosebagbear (talk) 16:14, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've blocked the IP (range) and placed an additional notice on FifeHouseOwner's page. I did not modify the block, they're already indeffed. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Benjaminkirsc reverting my edits to My Sims Agents, adding a copyvio back to the page in the process

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello! This happened last month but I only noticed this now. Benjaminkirsc undid my complete rewrite of My Sims Agents, citing that the information I added was "unnecessary" and had "possible incorrect grammar". However, when they did this they failed to realize that the whole reason that I rewrote the page is because the version they reverted the page to is a fairly obvious copyvio, which was mostly unsourced, and was literally written like a sales pitch, because it was one. Normally, this would just be something that I would warn a user about, but I realized that they had been reported to ANI once before. I'm honestly not sure how they could miss that they were reverting the page to a version that was literally an advertisement. TheAwesomeHwyh 00:58, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've been keeping an eye on Benjaminkirsc's edit since the last AN/I visit (I was hoping to see improvement), and while they've managed to stop swearing so much in edit summaries, they're still having issues with edit warring and civilly disagreeing with other editors (including a handful of undos with the edit summary "wrong," like Special:Diff/920805947 and Special:Diff/920805947. Their reactions to others on their talk page have some communications issues as well, with very brusque replies and no further engagement. creffett (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
FYI: the first dif you posted is of an edit by Zacharyalejandro, not Benjaminkirsc. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TheAwesomeHwyh, oops, I always have trouble getting the right diff ID, it's probably the next diff. Thanks for pointing it out, fixed. creffett (talk) 01:24, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the copyvio is wrong Benjaminkirsc (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So... then why did you revert back to it? TheAwesomeHwyh 01:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Because it was a problem Benjaminkirsc (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
??? What? You reverted to a copyvio... because the copyvio was a problem? TheAwesomeHwyh 22:25, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposing indef block: I just took a quick look into their edit history and found these summaries showing some serious WP:CIVILITY issues. An where an IP user literally only added the number "90" to the article, which could've easily been a mistake, was reverted with the summary "WHAT WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Another, where another IP user added the wrong release date, was reverted with the summary of "YOU ARE WRONG!" Both of those edits were done after this AN/I report was filed yesterday / earlier today (depending on timezone). TheAwesomeHwyh 22:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not related thouogh. Do that somewhere else. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 00:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you understand. This page is for all of your behaviors, not just the one mentioned in the section title. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can undertand what your saying but, this is talking about My Sims Agents. If you want talk about that, please let me know in my talk page. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 10:08, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, as I've already said this page is for everything related to your edits. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Benjaminkirsc, you're missing the point. Having your attitude and competence repeatedly discussed on the noticeboards is NOT normal. How many editors are following your edits to make sure you're not going off the rails yet again? If you continue as you are, then sooner or later the community will decide that the value of your contributions is not worth the cost of watching out for, and correcting, your mishaps. Cabayi (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Cabayi et al. Benjaminkirsc, you were warned about your behaviour especially the way you were dealing with vandals and others in edit summaries. You seem to have cut out on your "fuck" and stuff but some of your edit summaries still leave a lot to be desired. The fact that some of the examples highlighted don't seem to be clear cut vandalism is even more reason to be concerned. In this case [223], your edit summary was okay. However as I pointed out your edit seems to be wrong. Two of the most recent sources support Imagine Publishing as the publisher, so does the image of the cover in the article. If you are going around yelling at people for being wrong, there's a good chance you are eventually, if you haven't already, going to yell at someone when you were the one who is wrong. Think about that for a minute. Note when I reverted you, I did not see the need to say "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, THE 2014 SOURCE CLEARLY SAYS IMAGINE PUBLISHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". It does not help you or anyone else. Not really the place for this but since I brought it up here, it seems Future plc acquired Imagine in October 2016. So the current digital only edition is I assume published by Future plc although it may also be published by Imagine depending on whether they maintained that as a subbrand which I don't know. This was after the print edition ended in April 2016, which suggests the print one was published by Imagine to the end, which is supported by the source suggesting to buy it from the Imagine store. Nil Einne (talk) 10:59, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne: Good thing I didn't yell or curse there. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 21:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well you're still missing the point. You also still haven't explained why you reverted to a copyvio, so.... Nil Einne (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Resorting to the maximum right from the get-go might be a bit much...Buffs (talk) 18:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TheAwesomeHwyh, your report begs the question, why didn't you tag the copyvio with {{copyvio-revdel}} to clear it out of the article's history? Why haven't you still? Cabayi (talk) 10:45, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cabayi I don't know, actually, sorry. I've done it now. TheAwesomeHwyh 01:03, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks TheAwesomeHwyh. Cabayi (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support indefinite block or community ban. The editor does not appear to understand they should not revert to copyvios and has shown little ability to understand the feedback they've been offered. Nil Einne (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Very weak support for CIR block - it's pretty clear that this editor just isn't getting it, if you look at their talk page, responses here, and responses in the previous ANI thread. I'm reluctant to block here, but I'm not sure what other options are on the table when they just don't seem to understand why their actions are inappropriate, and I suspect that if nothing is done we'll be back here in another month or two. I'm kind of perplexed by this editor's actions, to be honest - usually in these kinds of cases it's not listening, but my read here is more "not understanding" than "deliberately ignoring." creffett (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a block of a few months to give the editor some time to mature? WMSR (talk) 05:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support indef block. It seems like his MO is to do something bad and then refuse to understand the negative feedback. If you look at his talk page it is filled with final warnings for the same conduct going back several months, and his responses have been mostly glib one word answers or one-liners. There's no sign that he is really getting better. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 13:09, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support indefinite block. I've sorta been keeping an eye on him for a while and have greatly noticed his refusal to work with others and deciding to ignore site policy. Him yelling at other users through edit summaries (and the occasional cussing) don't help his case either. Namcokid47 (Contribs) 16:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I didn't realize that he hasn't been blocked before. I can see your point about him not getting a block before, and frankly I'm surprised since I've seen people get in trouble for less severe misconduct and IDHT issues in the past. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 19:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I suspect we're dealing with a lack of competence due to youth. A block for a couple years wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing. WP has plenty of editors who were a pain in the ass but after maturing for a few years they became very productive editors. Blackmane (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support reasonable block. I agree with Buffs, a permanent ban is a bit over the top. I've had limited dealings with Benjaminkirsc, so take my opinion for what it's worth. When he removed some info about a mobile port from a video game article (Special:Diff/918276204), I reverted and said he needed to use the talk page to explain his deletion (Special:Diff/918278677). Which he did. I explained his reasoning from flawed, and that was pretty much the end of it. So he is certainly capable of listening to others and taking advice. And I have no reason to believe he's malicious in any way. However, I'm inclined to agree with Blackmane, I do get the impression that he's very young, so a block of a few months/years might not be a bad idea. Bertaut (talk) 04:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy: this is the talk page discussion Bertaut is talking about. TheAwesomeHwyh 04:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm naïve, but I don't see how a block of a few years (!) is that much kinder or gentler than a 'nuclear' indef block. If anything, it might be better to offer the guy mentorship or something instead of a block. If he's really just immature but could be contrusctive and in good faith this might be a better option. 38.142.216.106 (talk) 13:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is, we did offer mentorship (and a run through the CVU course) during the last AN/I discussion, Benjaminkirsc didn't engage with the offer (as you can see from the above discussions, part of the problem is that they basically don't engage in discussions at all). creffett (talk) 02:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair. The distinction between an indefinite block and a block for several years does sort of escape me though, but I'll defer to your judgment on that of course.208.185.237.210 (talk) 13:34, 24 October 2019 (UTC); strike CU blocked IP --TheSandDoctorTalk 06:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A block for several years expires automatically when the several years is up. An indefinite block doesn't expire ever, but must be removed based on some other condition (discussion with the blocking admin or a successful community appeal, usually), which can be a time of a few minutes or many years depending on the circumstances. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I would add that while time limited blocks automatically expire so may seem to be a lesser block and generally speaking, any block can be appealed; with a time limited block it isn't that uncommon especially with a long block like a month or more, that the is the block is expected to last the length of the block unless a mistake was made. (Sometimes, especially with edit warring and stuff, it's expected that the time limited block will be successfully appealed if sufficient reassurance of not repeating the behaviour.) When I supported a indef block, I explicitly intended this as a "indefinite" block and not a permanent one. I also didn't want a WP:cban, but a normal indefinite block which can be appealed to any admin. I was hoping some admin would share my views and impose one without much more discussion. (Technically, this discussion could be taken as "Editors who are or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community".) Although I do have concerns over their edit summaries, my main concern is they really have given no indication they understand or care about copyvios. If they give sufficient reassurances their block could last minutes. I mean it doesn't even have to be a block if they would properly engage with the discussion. What they've said so far doesn't reassure me they are capable of this at the time whether due to WP:competence issues or something else, but it could also be they're just ignoring the concerns since they feel they can. Nil Einne (talk) 03:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support indef block No reason to believe a short block would resolve the issues. Disruptive editors with clean block logs get indeffed all the time. Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support at least some form of action. I feel like an indef might be a bit too harsh for a first block, but none of my interactions with Benjaminkirsc have been particularly great (this was my first one, BTW). JOEBRO64 13:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support some form of action, as Joe says above. Here's another example of, at best, a miswritten edit note. To revert a months old redirect as "not notable" is difficult to follow. Been dealing with similar issues for months now, or repeated changes to infoboxes despite being informed of documentation and MOS, etc. Another example that I just found while reviewing is this claim that information is false while simultaneously removing the sources that show it's not. -- ferret (talk) 17:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Separate of this, I've just reverted yet another edit where he removed information as "false information" or similar such phrases that was either reliably source, or for which I could easily find sources for, and I've independently given him a final warning. If this thread doesn't block him, I probably soon will. -- ferret (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In regards to some comments that the editor seems to just shrug off criticism, the user's response to my "final warning" was to simply ask how long he'd be blocked. I felt that was fairly...flippant. -- ferret (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support block. I'm not sure how long for though - I'm reluctant to say indef for a first offence, but the entire impression I'm getting is that they'll just shrug off a shorter one and then carry on as they were - I'm seeing absolutely no indication that understand why others have a problem with their edits. A short block after this long at ANI also somehow feels punitive. So maybe an indefinite but explicitly not infinite block, allowing for unblock when they demonstrate an understanding of the issues. Thryduulf (talk) 16:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support block. Idk if indefinite is appropriate, but at least a good long several months. It is strange talking with this editor. IDK if it's their age or a language barrier but they lack some basic comprehension needed in this space. TarkusABtalk/contrib 19:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support block per WP:CIR. WMSR (talk) 04:41, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.